A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Welcome to A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us and it just might be a matter of faith. Whether it be faith in God, faith in others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Office of Faith-Based Investing & Corporate Engagement, the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program, and Unbound: An Interactive Journal on Christian Social Justice for the Presbyterian Church (USA). Submit questions to faithpodcast@pcusa.org. LISTENING GUIDES FOUND IN PODCAST SHOW NOTES.
A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
A Peaceful Education about Power & Intersex Awareness w/ Stephanie Budwey and Marissa Adams
This week on the podcast we talk about power dynamics in sports and how our public education is being dramatically influenced by recent anti-queer and racist laws. All that and more on this podcast dedicated to our Intersex Siblings!
Question of the Week:
Why is peace so important in the Christian context?
Special Guests:
Stephanie Budwey, Professor of the History and Practice of Christian Worship and the Arts, Vanderbilt Divinity School & Marissa Adams, Intersex Advocate with interest in the intersection of intersex and faith/religion
Guest Question:
We talk about supporting the “LBTQIA+ community”, but often forget or overlook the “I” which stands for intersex persons. How can we better support our Intersex siblings in our faith communities, especially when some communities still struggle to understand and support the LGBTQ part of the acronym? We can barely talk about sex in our faith communities, let alone issues faced by the intersex community.
Resources:
Religion and Intersex: Perspectives from Science, Law, Culture and Theology
Discount Code: ASM07 20%
Intersex Awareness Day
InterAct: Advocates for Intersex Youth
InterConnect
Intersex Justice Project
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Hello and welcome to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith,
Speaker 2:Whether it be faith in God, faith in others, or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program and Unbound the interactive journal on Christian Social justice for the Presbyterian Church usa. I am your host, Lee Cato,
Speaker 1:And I'm your host Simon Doon.
Speaker 2:Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.
Speaker 1:Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast. I am joined as always by the tired.
Speaker 2:Yeah,
Speaker 1:Not retired. Tired.<laugh> Lee. Cato Lee, how are you? I've been tired.
Speaker 2:<laugh>. We got on this, uh, we got on the recording today and I was just like, for some reason I'm just drained. I don't know what it is, it's just, I don't know, maybe it's a change of season, but also my dog's been feeling kind of weird. He has a stomach thing that's bizarre and apparently beagles have like empty. They get like these empty stomachs very easy and so if the stomach's empty, you get sick. It's very weird. So I think it's, I think it's just a combination of all of it, But yeah, I'm just a little tired. I mean, even even we get tired, y'all. We get tired and that's just kind of how it is. That's the way it is. As Lane Deion says,
Speaker 1:Oh, that's true, but not too tired to be here with you all on the podcast for today. And I actually did something that kind of gave me some energy this week. I went to a free performance raising, uh, some money for a local opera theater company, nonprofit, I should say, not company, um, but they did this thing called Opera versus Broadway. And so it was a program for about an hour and a half of a mix of Broadway and opera tunes done by almost all done by different people. It was cool. Yeah, you know, I don't hate opera, but I'm not a big lo opera lover, but I do really like Broadway. And so having it sort of interspersed and mixed like that, um, exposed me to some opera that I probably wouldn't have listened to otherwise, which was kind of cool.
Speaker 2:That is cool. Me and me and Will went to an opera once in Nashville, actually we went to two cuz for some reason I had gotten into this lottery to get opera tickets and I don't know how that happened, but we saw Toska and we also saw a, an American opera that we've talked about on this podcast before. And I can never remember. I think it's Susanna or something. And uh, I really enjoyed them. But I am a big Broadway fan. I mean, I did karaoke a couple days ago and I pulled out a Broadway song. She's my go-to. Someone said once at a karaoke bar, you have to be on Broadway. And I was like, for one I'm flattered. And two, if I were on Broadway, I don't think I would be at this very random karaoke bar<laugh>. I would, I would be<laugh>, I would be on Broadway. It would be very flattered though. Very flattered. I do like to sing, but anyway, That sounds pretty interesting though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a good time. So happy to support the local arts scene.
Speaker 2:Gotta support the local scene. Everyone goes, support your local people.
Speaker 1:That's true
Speaker 2:Always. And you're a bit surprised at what you find.
Speaker 1:But speaking people who do not have support,
Speaker 2:Right? Oh gosh, how many people? I mean,<laugh>
Speaker 1:Moving to our news segment, this isn't exactly recent news, but I don't know if we've talked about it here a whole lot. So the owner of the Washington Commander's football team, uh, is Dan Snyder. And Dan Snyder has just really, I mean he stepped, he's come a come under fire for a number of things. He stepped away from the team a while back. Um, but things just sort of keep coming up about people wanting him to sell the team and sort of completely sever ties. They don't want him to be an owner. Uh, I was actually watching, I believe it was, uh, Thursday night football, might have been Monday Night Football, I can't remember. Mm. I was watching a game and one of the commentators, the analyst actually just straight up said, Yeah, the league wants him out. The owners want him gone. They want him to, to sell the team in part ways, which I guess that's a lot for them to be willing to say that on air. And the watching him post, of course, and a number of other news outlets have more information about the sort of, I don't wanna say vitriol, but the push that is around trying to get him to sell the team. And if you don't know, the reason a lot of this has come, uh, is coming up is because of allegations of sexual harassment. And I don't know if it's actually misconduct. Again, not all the details are out in the public, but some of that from within his handling of things with employees. And so it's just interesting to, to watch it unfold. Uh, obviously it's unfortunate that this is, that that's the case as well. But having grown up in the Maryland DC area, I will also say that I don't think anyone ever really liked Dan Snyder, for lack of a better word, um, as an owner. And just because of some of the policies and ideas that he had around how to make money. So we'll see what happens, but I think, you know, it's pretty bad when people feel, uh, they have the license or the capability to talk about the situation on open air. Especially when sometimes people don't want to talk about those things because it can be kind of, you can get yourself into trouble by talking about things sometimes.
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah, it's very true. And you know, it's so interesting cuz I just got done reading an article about this, this pastor, this minister who's very well known and has, I mean, done, done some like notable things within the community but also is now alleged of sexual abuse. Uh, some, maybe some domestic abuse. And so it is just interesting with people in leadership and people in the public eye and people in these, these types of spaces that there's also the question of, there's always a question of power dynamic too. And I think that's where we can kind of like see, see how all these things connect within what's happening in, in sports and sports ownership, which is a whole other thing that is interesting to talk about and how all that connects with the church and with faith that people are in leadership positions and it is a power di it is power that I think we, we don't often talk enough about. And I mean we've talked about it on this podcast a lot and we always bring, we always bring things like this up because it has to, we have to like talk about it and keep it in people's people's minds because Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it's particularly right and it's particularly interesting because again, usually other owners of major NFL football teams will not comment about other owners per se and the situations that they're facing. But that changed this week when the Indianapolis cult owner, Jim Erse, told reporters that there was merit to forcing Snyder to sell the team amid reports of a toxic workplace and fiscal improprieties in the Washington Commander's franchise. So that's kind of unusual because you don't usually get that level of outspokenness mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, of course in order to actually remove him from being an owner, it would require at least 24 of the third of the league's, 32 owners to take that step. But, uh, it sounds like Jim Mee, owner of the Indianapolis, of the Indianapolis Colts is saying that this would be for the good of the league first nighter to sell the team. And it also gets more interesting because then you have the NFL commissioner Roger Goodell being like, We should not speculate about the future of the team at this time. Investigations are ongoing and you know, things like that. So again, interesting the ways that we talk about accountability and what that looks like. And now it seems that there might be increased pressure from his peers, for lack of a better word,<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that's what we're doing. Yeah. We're putting pressure<laugh> on our peers in the church and speaking up about it. But I think abuse looks different in different ways and I think we don't often talk enough about that too, because I do know there are leaders in the church, leaders in faith communities that have this like power dynamic that they hold that, or like even even the, like the things that we classify in our job position as like head pastor or like senior pastor or, or there's that language that comes with this like hierarchy and this like power dynamic that I think sometimes gets that power is often misplaced and abused in some way. And I'm seeing it more and more, especially now that the church is in this like tense kind of like decline in membership. And so people wanna hold on to like a lot of power and, and in the ways in which that kind of manifests, not just, I mean it manifests in all levels of the church and I'm not just saying like just in a specific area, but I've just heard so many stories, especially this week of that. And it makes me think about it even in like organiz organizations in general, including sports and church and anywhere you're dealing with money and dealing with people and dealing with hierarchy. This is kind of like what we're all kind of in too. So it's not so disconnected either.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. And typically NFL owners have looked the other way when one of them has bad behavior or in their front offices as long as the, the problems are perceived to be more contained and as, especially as long as the team is financially sex, uh, successful. Right. So there's that as well. And I think also teams, uh, owners of teams are reluctant to force another owner to sell their team because it sets this precedent that could then be used against them. Right. And I think that still though maybe that precedent is necessary in order to have accountability. Right. And as you were saying, Lee, when we think about the faith context in the church, accountability is really important. We can't just look away because someone is powerful or successful or charismatic or whatever else it is.
Speaker 2:Right. And another thing we can't look away from is there is a piece in the Washington Post this week, it's called an Explosion of Culture War Laws is Changing Schools. And it says, Here's how I recently went home to South Carolina where I heard even in my small town in Jefferson of about 750 people, this, this hits home even there because these laws are so expansive and so far reaching that it impacts every school in a district or in a state. And the article says that in 45 states, there are 283 laws that either sought to restrict what teachers can say about race, racism and American history to change how instructors can teach about gender identity, sexuality, LGBTQ issues to boost parents rights over their children's education, to limit students access to school libraries and books to circumscribe the rights of transgender students and or to promote what legislatures define as patriotic education. Of these 64 bills have been signed into law over 25 states whose populations together add to roughly 42% of all Americans. And that is just very wild to think about, to to think about how systems have, are put in place to create, and I'm not even gonna say it censorship, but to create lies. To create, to cover up, you know, the existence of some humans of human experiences. The, the history that has happened in this country and doing so now pretty much as they did in very post civil war or very pre a very, like, pretty much during the Civil War in which this is an old, this is not an old thing that we've been doing. People have been trying to do this and have been doing this for a very long time. This is not something new. But I think now because of technology and because of social media and because of the ways in which we can just kind of pinpoint something in a second, it's very much noticed. But this is not a new thing for one. But I do think that faith communities do, do have a unique opportunity in this case because a lot of this is fueled by faith. A lot of this is fueled by theology or ideology and Christian nationalism and all these things that they, they say. But I think certain faith spaces, specifically progressive ones, this is a per, this is a great opportunity to actually do something tangible in where you're at right now. Like y'all all have schools, you all have a school district, you all know somebody that goes to school and it's not necessarily like getting so involved in the school to where you wanna promote your own religious beliefs. But it is, this is a moral thing where we as people of faith really believe in truth telling and also repair and reparation and the humanity and the dignity of each human being. And like 42% of the population, that's huge that it aren't gonna get, I didn't even, I didn't get the correct history when I was growing up. And so I think this is us really needing to, to keep on this. And there's also another article in the Washington Post where they ask students how this is being impacted in their schools and how they are being, being impacted. And almost every account, it is a uptick in antique anti G B T Q I A rhetoric, uh, fights are happening, uh, people are getting bullied. There's just a lot of, a lot more uptick in like racism that is then spurred by action against people of color. And it's happening in our schools. And I think that we are very, can be very naive in a sense that say it like it used to be like, Oh, that'll all die off with the old people. No, it's not. That's not gonna happen cuz this is our young people who are doing this to each other now because parents and because superintendents and because people in leadership are saying it's okay. And so, but it also asks me the question and we'll kind of talk and our guests this week kind of talk about parental agency and or versus child agency and this rhetoric of, well I'm the parent so I have agency over my child. That kind of rhetoric. I think as a faiths institution we have perpetuated because of our ideas of family and parent. And, and I think we really need to have more discussions about what that means. And, and so I wonder about those questions too because of all this, you know,
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. It's it's not really like, oh, I want to take away your ability to about taking away someone's ability to like make decisions with their child. It's more about what, Yeah. What is the focus of that agency and who is, who is being centered and why, and for what kind of choices. Uh, because we often assume kids can't handle things and so adults need to make decisions. But the fact of the matter is that, as you were saying, kids are already growing up in an environment that is teaching them certain things. They are, they're already experiencing things, whether they're their parents want them to or not<laugh>. Right. And, and there's a question around if you expose your children to certain things is that, you know, what does that mean for them? But also your child, you should also be empowering your child to be able to try to comprehend and navigate those things. Not shelter them from one thing with a result that they can't handle certain situations or are given false narratives and they just believe it just because,
Speaker 2:Yeah. And, and I also un perpetuating it. Yeah. And it's also like maybe we shouldn't be expecting other parents to parent the way someone else might. Hmm. It shouldn't be someone else's, the way in which somebody parents their kid, fine. But in a public school that's not a private school. I mean, private schools have their own thing. They can teach whatever they want and that's another thing that we can talk about on another day. But the reality is that this is a public school with publicly approved curriculums that in some ways are pretty problematic too. And that's another, another conversation. But I do think it is this, the rhetoric of a parent choosing what their kid learns is very dangerous in that it does continue to perpetuate things that even that parent did not learn, that that parent did not have any idea about or that parent may not want to learn. And so what are we, how are we having more conversations not only within our, our homes but also within our faith communities? Cuz I think this is a perfect way to bring in another aspect of doing the work of justice because there are a lot of families in churches, there are a lot of kids in churches, and they're all going through this. And it does change things. And you're, if you can't go to your library, if you can't read a book and you wanna ask why, and nobody's gonna tell you why, just because I said so. And I don't ever think that that's a<laugh>, I don't ever think that that's a good response. But it, it is just very much disheartening and kind of scary that almost half of the population of this country may or may not get to have an experience to where they're actually learning what has happened and how we move forward and repaired those things. So it's, yeah, it's just very interesting. So y'all also pray for your teachers, pray for students because it is a wild time in public education because of lack of teachers, lack of other staff. Teachers are not the only ones in schools. So I think send prayers to our public school people because they need it. It's, it's very disheartening.
Speaker 1:Well, and moving on to our first question of the day, We have a question about peace. So today's question
Speaker 2:Today
Speaker 1:Yeah. We might, today's question reads, why is peace an important aspect of faith for Christians? And I think that's really, really interesting because we hear about all the different titles or names that Jesus had, including the Prince of Peace being, being one of the most commonly cited ones. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And I think also there's this question that around peace about peace, we, we talk about peace at all times in all ways. Peace for whom, what does that peace look like? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And I think that for, I would say that as Christians we're called to think of peace as not just being like a, a state of being, but an action that we are actively participating in and actively participating has a number of takes a number of forms, whether that is literally being peacemakers or whether it is witnessing and supporting those who are trying to work for peace in their own communities and recognizing the distinctions, I think between peace and just absence of conflict, if that makes sense. Yeah. Because those two things are not always the same. So I, and we're called to do that following the Prince of piece and well, I'll just start there, Lee. What, what do you think?<laugh>,
Speaker 2:You remember that song Prince, the piece, You know my princess piece and I, you remember that?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah. I was gonna sing along with you, but people don't need to hear that. Well, and for me, it's not my favorite. You sing a lot
Speaker 2:Better. It's not my favorite, but<laugh>. Um, but I just, I do remember that. But I, it's, it's interesting because, you know, a lot of that language of like, we use a lot of monarchy, you know, king of whatever, prince of piece. So it's just interesting that we put those things side by side when often princes and kings and queens of the world have instigated. Not necessarily what we think about as peace, but I think that's the whole point is that it's, it's counteractive to that. But I also think that when we think about peace, we often kind of come at it in a human humanity way. And as people of fate, peace, God's peace, or like the peace that comes with the spirit, I think is very unpredictable. And I think it's very nuanced. And like you said, Simon, I think it is very much not only a state of beating being, but an action, I do think there is some sort of state of being in that because I do, I can tell you sometimes where I feel very at peace and there are certain places, there are certain, there are certain songs and certain music that that brings me there. And so I think it's this like, this delineation of like, what is our, like what brings us like inner piece individually, which can also be connected to what is a more communal idea of what piece is. And I think that's very nuanced and contextual for everybody. Some people think we get to peace in one way, and some people think we get to peace in another way. And for me, I don't know, you know, I can only tell you what I may think or experience what peace may be, but I think we do kind of come at it with a more like passive viewpoint instead of like, we only see it from a distance or in passing, or we read it in the Bible or we read it wherever. But in all reality, Jesus wasn't that like, quote, quote, peaceful as we kind of perceive Jesus to be. Jesus was kind of a disruptor, so he didn't make a lot of peace. But I think within all of that, there is kind of the forward looking of what it might look like to have what we, what we say is kind of like the, this God's piece or whatever. But I think it's a lot more nuanced than what we ever make it out to be. And I mean, mean we'll be coming up on advent soon, and we always talk about peace then, but then again, we kind of always like whitewash it. Some, it wasn't very peaceful when Jesus was born<laugh>. It really wasn't. Right. So, but it was in that moment there was a glimpse of it, you know, so Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think it's easy also sometimes to make peace sound like this, uh, concept where again, it's not just a state which a, a state of being and it's not just a state of being where you're like unfeeling because you're so happy necessarily. Jesus was the prince of peace, but Jesus got mad. Jesus still flipped some tables in the temple. Yeah. And Jesus was tired and I think kind of annoyed potentially when the disciples will come up on the, on the boat because they were worried about the troubled waters. I think he was maybe also disappointed when he asked all of his friends, his disciples to stay awake and they all fell asleep.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But he still did the work, even just despite experiencing all of those emotions. And so I'm, I think we also need to be reminded that in a state of peace, or working towards the state of peace does not mean you are not gonna feel all those ranges of things. Yeah. But in, but if you are in a, in a good, peaceful state with others, and working in, in a constant continuum of peace with others, you will hopefully have a better understanding and a better connection with them and to God, hopefully. Yeah. But it doesn't mean you're not feeling things<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Right. I, I don't know why I keep coming to songs because that's kind of how we learned about all this. I got peace like a river. I never really understood that because when everybody ever taught me, they're like, Oh, you know, you sit by the river. And I was like, but also when you go white water rafting, that is a river. You know, like, that ain't very peaceful. I mean, the sound, and this is another thing that's kind of interesting to think about, like the river can be rough. The river can have its moments to where it's just sitting there with the current, but also within the roughness. You hear the water running. And it's also in some ways soothing. So I think that just shows like in, in a lot of the times, this, this piece work or like, if we're called to be peacemakers or, or however you wanna call it, that is just how it is. That's, it's gonna be this weird mix of things that, that we all like, we all want to define it. And I think it's important because as Christians specifically, I mean, we were talking about Jesus who did kind of disrupt all of this stuff. And, and, and I think in some ways has really kind of manifested what this piece is in a way that is disruptive. But it's also something that is just as well as fellowship in times of, I mean, Jesus ate a lot, you know, like and love to like be with people and, and all of that encompass with one another. And we talk about, we talk about that a lot in our tradition. And not only Jesus, but other people in the Bible bring, trying to bring peace and comfort and all these things to people. So it's, it's something we don't talk a lot about. We say it a lot. We say peace a lot, but we don't actually kind of talk about what in what that actually is.
Speaker 1:Well folks, why don't you write in and let us know what you think about peace and why it's important for Christians and also how you observe peace in your own faith and in your own community. Right in and let us know Faith podcast@pcusa.org. We look forward to hearing from you.
Speaker 2:Peace, y'all.
Speaker 1:So before we get into our guest conversation, we just wanted to let folks know that we are so grateful to Stephanie and Marissa for joining us on the podcast. We wanted to make sure that this conversation, um, which talks about the experiences and issues faced by our intersex siblings came out before intersex Awareness Day, which will be on October 26th. So actually that'll be next week. We wanted to make sure this episode came out before then, uh, so that you all could be aware and that you can hear from our wonderful guests and also about the resources and, uh, links that we'll have in the show notes for you to check out. And without further ado, let's get to that great conversation.
Speaker 2:So joining us today, our two very special guests and we're so excited to have them. Uh, one of them is Stephanie Bud Way, who is the loose Dean's faculty, fellow assistant professor of the history and practice of Christian worship and the arts at my seminary in Divinity school experience Vanderbilt Divinity School. And also joining us is Marissa Adams, who is an interstate advocate with interest in the intersection of intersex and faith and religion. Welcome to the podcast, y'all. We are so excited to have you.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having us. Thank you for
Speaker 1:Having me. Yeah, I'm really glad to have you both with us because we don't really talk about intersex issues really at all, let alone in mainstream culture and really not in in the faith world, in the faith community as well. And we have a question that I'm hoping you can help us sort of think through and navigate. And the, the question is that we talk about supporting the BT Q I A plus community, but often forget or overlook the I, which stands for intersects persons. How can we better support our intersect siblings in our faith communities? Especially when some communities still struggle to understand and support the G BT Q part of the acronym. We can barely talk about sex in our faith communities, let alone issues faced by the intersex community. So I wanted to know what, what you all think about that, and if you have any, any guidance or thoughts,
Speaker 4:I'm happy to say something and then let Steph say something. But, um, I think a big issue is just the lack of awareness of what intersex even is. So I'll just do a quick definition real quick. Intersex is, uh, an umbrella term for, uh, people with natal variations of sex characteristics. And these, um, characteristics are considered, um, outside of the binary sex of what is expected of a male or a female. It's important to also know that intersex is not a gender. So there's, you know, the difference between sex and gender. I think a big thing, especially in faith communities is like you said, um, LGBTQ is kind of not talked about in general. And then intersex is especially not talked about just because again, the lack of awareness, kind of the pathologizing nature, even in not, obviously in in the faith communities, it's kind of everywhere. But hon honestly, I think it's just a big lack of understanding and kind of a pre kind of conceived notion of what kind of a binary sex way of looking at things. And I think, um, Steph does a great job in her book kind of explaining the spectrum of sex. So especially how, like in the Bible and stuff. So that's kind of what I would start with.
Speaker 3:Thank you for that, Marissa. So is an endos sex ally and endos sex is a word that means just someone who's not intersex things that we can do, whether it's in our faith communities or just in general as to, as Marissa said, the first thing is education is there's so many folks don't know about iex or have misconceptions. There are things that we can do to help advocate for our intersect siblings to advocate for the ending of unnecessary medically unnecessary surgeries without their consent, um, to protect their right to bodily autonomy, fighting for their human rights so they can legally register their preferred sex or gender. Whether or not that's in the binary or not. A lot of what I talk about my book, I have a chapter on liturgy. And so in a, you know, faith community setting in worship, we can actually name them. Like how often have you heard the word intersex spoken in a, in a church, um, service. So just naming them that they're there because that makes them visible and makes them feel that they're included in a worship service, um, to let them know that they are loved and made in God's image. Because oftentimes churches kind of have this theology that if you're not male and female, ma you're not made in God's image, which means you're not a human being. The story of, of Susan Gross who was an intersex person and activist was told they couldn't be baptized because they weren't a human being. I mean, it's that awful. Um, that comes from, from theologies, from churches. I talk a lot about being mindful in language. Not all intersex people are non-binary, but some are. Um, and so I really advocate for taking care of the language that's used in worship. So I often talk about a piling up of images, which comes from Sally Mc Fe's work, so to say something like brothers and sisters and siblings, so that all folks are included. And that goes also for God to use feminine masculine in non-gendered language, um, for God. And, um, we have an upcoming service for intersex Day of Remembrance at the table. Our friend Dan Damon has actually written to hims that used the word intersex. So we can also reflect that in the songs that are used, um, and worship that, you know, even if they don't specifically say intersex in the Bible, we have examples of Unix. Um, and there were three different types of Unix. Some who we could now consider today to be intersex, people who were born with variations of sex characteristics. There were Unix who were forced to become Unix, often those going into slavery and those who chose it for aesthetic reasons. So we can talk about passages like Acts eight and the Ethiopian Un, um, to talk about someone who was included into the church and was baptized and to talk about the relationship. You know, not all intersex folks identify under the LGBTQ ia plus umbrella, but some do is Marissa said in my book, I think what I talk about is something that's helpful for all folks under that umbrella and that a lot of churches go back to Genesis 1 27, and that's sexual dimorphism, that understanding that we are made either male or female. And then that all piles on this cis hetero patriarchal assumptions that you're going to be a man, you're going to iGen, identify as a male, identify as a man and marry a woman. So you get all of these normative notions that get piled onto that understanding from Genesis when it's just sexual bi dimorphism when it's a binary. And so I argue for sexual polymorphism, which is a spectrum. So it allows folks to be on the spectrum of sex from male to female to intersect on the spectrum of gender, from man to woman to non-binary. And then on the spectrum of sexuality, whether you're gay, straight by, um, poly, anything under there. So I think for all of us, um, it helps to break down that binary understanding to move to a spectrum so that all folks feel included in church and worship. All folks feel that they're loved, um, by God and me in God's image.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's something that whenever I took one of your classes, we, I really appreciated, especially being in a, in a denomination that classifies itself on a national level. Not every church has its thing, but on a national level, being very progressive in its policy towards, uh, our siblings, our siblings and the lgbtq q i plus community. But when, but when we actually look into it, our liturgies and our hymns and our rituals even and, and, and all of those things that really make up our traditions and make up what it means to, to be in this thing we call religion or faith doesn't reflect that as much. And, and I really appreciate that this is also telling people that this is like a, these are practical ways, these are more inclusive, what inclusive ways that we can see and we can experience together that I think truly is a way to be inclusive that's not just kind of saying it or, or, or it's just words written down on a page that says, we believe this. It's like we're acting this out. And so I really appreciate, I really appreciated that class for that, but I appreciate this conversation because there, there is representation in our scriptures where we all kind of hold on to, and it's, it's really amazing that we don't have these conversations even about the difference in sex and gender and sexuality and all these things. And I'm glad y'all said that too, but I also, you know, wonder about, we talk about, we always, we talk about like the, the kind of the negative part, but also like how, how our, I'm a, I classify as a part of the community and a part of the GT Q I A community and how we bring our full selves and how that's a gift to our faith as well. And so I just wonder how are we lifting up those things when it comes to our siblings who are intersects or IEX siblings? How, how do we lift that up or like show and, and be that voice also of holding up that's like, we have been here, we've always been here and we have brought our full selves to this, and so I just wonder about that too.
Speaker 4:Um, I think something that has been helpful for me is, and it, and I've, I've kind of always known it, but IEX is not a new thing. Intersects has been around since whenever humans were created. They just, uh, it's just not represented a lot or talked about the way intersects people have been treated over the years has really only kind of revolution revolutionized in the last 50 years with like surgery, uh, surgeries and pathology, Jason. Um, there's several great books that talk about history around kind of intersects. So it's been helpful for me to just know it's like, okay, intersex is not something new. Yes, it's maybe being talked about and it's kind of scaring people a little bit, but it's not new. Um, and then also the, the bible verse Ryan fearfully and wonderfully made, like that's, that refers to everyone. I think also something that's helped is in the last several years alone, there have been kind of a movement of really showing the positives and the strength and resilience of the intersex community. Like yes, there's lots of trauma and, um, stigmatization of intersex people and, and kind of horrible treatment in the medical community, but it's, there are good things as well. And intersex awareness day next week has was a huge, I think, um, part of the intersex community gaining some, um, spotlight and, um, little bit of recognition. So there are several continuous kind of traumas and, and things to work on, but there also are many good things about being intersex and intersex community. And, um, thankfully I think I would hope that, um, faith communities would, I, I I hope maybe that just with some education it will really change things. Again, I think it's a huge lack of education, but I think there are, um, people kind of doing this work, um, professionally. And, and then, um, you know, we have Pastor Don here in Nashville who's a great kind of someone I look to and like, yes, pastors be like her. And so like she's doing it. Um, Steph is doing it as a theologian. Like it's, it's possible. So I think there are, uh, different religious, um, leaders could definitely look to look to that for, for some inspiration.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for that, Marissa. And I always try to, I, in my book I talk about a theology of both, neither, which recognizes that intersects people exist, that they're made in God's image. But the last part is it, it celebrates the diversity and multiplicity of God's creation. Um, so I think that's something in our, our churches that we can celebrate to celebrate the diversity of the body of Christ, that we're all so very different and to honor those differences. And I also talk about, you know, Galatians 3 28 where there's no longer a slave or Greek, you know, Jew nor Gentile, but man, um, male and female. And so that kind of es ideological notion of, you know, the vision of the kingdom, where I think we still have those, those differences because a lot of folks work really hard to say, Hey, I identify as non-binary. I identify as a man, I identify as a woman, but what goes away are all of the awful things that we attach to them of the hierarchies of the oppression that folks are made for those differences. And so, you know, I often teach in my class that worship is a rehearsal for, for life and for bringing that kingdom, um, from heaven to earth. So to make our worship and then our world a place where that difference is celebrated and folks identities are celebrated, but they're not oppressed for how they identify or who they are or who they love. So as a church to kind of work to bring about that vision of the kingdom here on this,
Speaker 1:I really appreciate everything you, you both have said, and I'm, this is funny to say, I'm finally old enough that, so my friends and my peers are starting to have children. And now that, and, and maybe I just didn't think about this when I was younger because I was a kid and the idea of having kids is a, you know, something for older people, but I am in that age range now,<laugh>. Um, and I know that as you were saying, um, said earlier, Marissa, uh, you talked, you had mentioned people, parents having their children have surgeries without their consent because of, and the reason that that's an issue is it's around agency, it's around identity. And I know progressive folks who they struggle with that because it's like, Oh, well I want my child, I I want my child to, no one wants their child to struggle, right? But part of that means understanding who they are and being able to choose about their own body. And so they find themselves at this crossroads where, what could we do to protect our child? But then it's like, what are we protecting them from? Who are we protecting them from? And maybe that's the actual problem, but they, but then there's this question, and obviously as, as you have said, the, especially in the medical field, hasn't, hasn't always been kind or treated well at all intersects persons. And so I wondering if you could just talk a little bit more about, for those folks who are, who, who have children, who are, you know, who may encounter that in their own lives, why that agency is so important. Because I think that's something that, especially from, and I'll, and I'll go ahead and say it as a, as a straight heterosexual man, it's not something that's at like the forefront of my mind, but I think it should be. I think it's something that should be much more, I should have more awareness of. And if there's one thing that faith communities do like to do is they love to talk about their children, they love to support their children and they like to support parents, but that's something that I think parents will struggle with as well. And so how do we shift the focus also from not just being about the parent, but being about the child, the individual that is a child of the faith community and a child of God, If that makes sense.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that does. I've actually met several kind of families who would consider themselves very conservative, who have intersex children identified at birth. And interestingly, they as kind of equally to like progressive families. It seems like when you, when it's your situation, your life, it's actually happening to you, I feel like it's, um, easier to really understand and really be in touch with it rather than, or, and like thinking about it in a different way than say just, um, maybe conservative people who have no idea and who think the idea of an intersex body is like a problem. Um, my own parents are very conservative and have now admitted it was kind of a bad decision of them to go ahead with the surgeries for me just because when I was younger, because they are just full of, um, consequences, physical mental harm. Um, and a lot of it, I think the parents often can be kind of blamed for these decisions that are, are made, um, by them on for the, for on behalf of the children. But it's, it's a lot from the, the medical community. Uh, parents are not given enough information. They're not given alternatives to surgery. It's a very heteronormative view of things that often cause the, the logic behind the cert, these surgeries. And, and I mean, I, I would just hope that regardless of conservative, liberal, um, people would respect bodily autonomy of, of children. And there's, I think there's a big misconception that to have a child and raise them as a girl or a boy, they have to have the corresponding kind of genitals<laugh> to, to do that. And, and they don't, they don't, kid can be absolutely a girl, a boy, um, neither and, and, and not have to have like the corresponding kind of, um, binary body kind of that's associated with that. Um, I think that's, um, finally being debunked as there are some families who are now choosing to delay the surgeries and really give the child some choice. Um, so yeah. I hope that answered the question.
Speaker 3:Thank you for that, Marissa. I would, I would just add, as I think we both said, is, is education a huge part of why I wrote my book was that, you know, a lot of pastors might be in the situation where they have parents who come to them and say, This has happened to me. I don't know what to do. Because as Marissa said, a lot of folks don't know what intersex is. So if they have a child and then they're told their child is intersex, that's obviously a big shock to parents who don't know what it is. And then they're often put under pressure by the doctors, you know, who say, Well, we can quote, fix this. Um, and so they're scared and, and they don't have any information and they're just, you know, we naturally as people trust our doctors and think that they know what's best. And so if we can help pastors be educated so that when they have families who come to them with these questions, they're educated, they can offer them resources like support groups like interact or interconnect, which can connect you with intersex people or parents of intersex people who you could have a conversation with to maybe have different information from what you're being told by doctors. So it, it really is about education so that folks who are in that position with a newborn, they actually feel like they have some their, their own agency because they're very much just pressured by the doctors, by society. That's always the first question, right? Is it a boy or a girl? Well, what happens if it's not clear? Um, so we're fighting against a lot of these sociocultural norms that are reinforced by science. And so, um, education and helping folks connect with those, there's a lot of great resources out there and support groups for intersex people and their families.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that would be a great resource for, for our listeners. And so we'll make sure to put those links and stuff in our show notes because I, I don't think that many leaders in the faith community or if you're a pastor or whatever you are out there that there isn't a lot of, I mean, this is, you don't get taught this. I mean, we kind of did in divinity school because we we're just at the right place at the right time, you know, and it was just by luck that we had great professors like Stephanie and, and all the people that we had teaching us. Like we learned some things, but that's not how it is everywhere. And so the more we can resource people, the better, because this will come up. I always think about these gender reveal things you always see on like TikTok and Instagram and all these things, and one of them even like started a forest fire. So even that just alone, we probably just need to not do it, but I think it is so integrated in our like pop culture and in society now that it is kind of a rite of passage or like, uh, a thing that you do that is very much, does really box in and puts a lot of pressure on parents. And, but the medical part of it is, is something that I think is very interesting and something that I think that many churches who do do advocacy and who do speak out a lot about a lot of things that we talk a lot about, Oh, we need universal healthcare and, and all these other ki types of things, but to be more specific and say, these things are happening and we need to be aware of them, and here's where we can go to kind of help with that. And so I think this is a good step and a good way for, for faith communities to really start having these conversations because yeah, Simon was saying there are children in our churches and parents and it's gonna happen, and I think this will be a great resource for, for them. But we, we also wanted to give Stephanie A. Little bit of time before we close to talk about this book that we've been referencing. And so Stephanie, we would love to give you some time to talk about this book, How can People Get It and all those beautiful things and yeah, so tell us about
Speaker 3:It. So, um, the book is called Religion and Intersex, uh, Perspectives from Science, Law, Culture and Theology. It, uh, was just published by Rutledge, uh, in August, and I believe folks will have a link to it. And I'll also put in the, um, discount code. I apologize, it's an academic book. It's, it's expensive, but the, the e-book is a little bit more affordable, but the discount will give you 20% off. And, um, it's a project I've been working on for quite a few years now. It started when I was in Germany doing the, uh, postoc over there, and I interviewed six intersex Christians wanting to understand what their experiences in church were, whether it was good, bad, what could we do to help. And the book, um, kind of expanded as I, I was interested in their church experiences and also things like what was their image of God, what language did they use for God? But as they told me their stories, it became really clear that it wasn't enough as, as we've talked about, you know, this need to educate folks. It's not just enough to talk about religion. You need to understand the science behind it and the medical treatment, the legal issues, the human rights issues. And then is, you know, you just mentioned what are the cultural issues and expectations that these four areas are just so intertwined. The book kind of goes through each of those, um, a chapter on science, the science behind sex differentiation, the history of the medical treatment, um, as Marissa mentioned, um, that's been kind of the unfortunately dominant paradigm since the fifties from John Moy. And then, um, how we can move towards more patient centered care and bodily autonomy legally looking at issues such as registering section, gender, the legality of these surgeries done on children without their consent. And just that it's a human rights issue that the United Nations has said that this medically unnecessary surgery on youth, um, children and infants without consent is actually torture and cruel and inhuman treatment. Culturally, looking at things like language, you know, our language is very gendered. Um, and just cultural, social, cultural norms of expectations and the experiences of my interview partners, how the sci, you know, the medical treatments they had made them. One person described feeling monstrous like a Frankenstein creation, how our society is creating situations where folks feel very othered and to the point of feeling like a monster. And then theologically, as I've talked about, looking back at Genesis, these theological notions, also images of God, theology I talked about of both neither and then Liturgically, what can we do? What's the history of folks, intersex folks in worship? What were the experiences of my interview partners? How can we think about language to be more inclusive of these folks? And so, as I said, it was really wanting to create something that folks could use as a way to be educated in all these areas to offer pastoral care and to advocate for our intersect
Speaker 1:Symptoms. Thank you, Stephanie. And we'll be sure, again, to have a link to the book in the show notes so people can check it out. And Marissa, uh, we also wanted to give you a chance to have a minute if there's any resources or other things that you think our listeners should know about if they wanna build that awareness and start learning more, um, um, about these issues and, uh, about, yeah, if you have any, any, any thoughts or ideas, uh, we'd, we'd love to hear them.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thanks. So there's, I work at Interact Advocates for Intersex Youth, which is an IEX advocacy program. I can definitely send all the information for them. We have a staff of about, uh, six people. We have lots of downloadable resources and brochures on our website. Then I also work at Interconnect Support Group, which is a peer support group for intersex people and families and also allies. Uh, been around for like 26 years, so they've been doing this work for a long time. There's also several books, memoirs written by intersex people, various social media accounts. Um, so there's definitely some great resources and I'm, um, definitely happy to test them along as well as, um, my email for anyone who wants to connect or
Speaker 2:Anything. Awesome. Well, this was, this is much needed and we are so happy that y'all joined us. And Stephanie, we even got to see your little cat, which was wonderful, made an appearance and loved that<laugh>, and it was good to see you again. It's been a while since I've seen you, so it was good to see you and it was good to meet you Marissa. And thank y'all again for joining us.
Speaker 4:Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much and great to see you again, Just wonderful to be with everyone.
Speaker 1:This has been the matter of Faith Podcast, brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program and Unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so at Faith Podcast at P C O S a.org. We look forward to hearing from you. See you next time.
Speaker 2:See you next time, y'all. Well, thanks everyone for listening to episode 97 of a Matter of Faith a Presby podcast. We are slowly getting to a hundred episodes, and when we are at a hundred episodes, we are releasing what we call our listening guides. And that is where we have taken all of the episodes, divided them up into themes, put our top ones that we really loved, and I mean we love all of them. And so we put all the ones under the theme really. And we also are providing some reflection questions. So if you are a person who likes to reflect on what you're hearing or you're a group of people, you should really check those out and we will let you know when those are released and they will be released when the hundredth episode airs. So get excited and we want y'all to also please subscribe and leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you. And if you have a question for us, send those to Faith podcast at P c s usa.org and we will talk to you again next week. Go and celebrate those who are intersex for, They are made in the image of God, just like we all are.