A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

The Curiosity Around Advent and Church w/ Colin Kerr

• Simon Doong and Lee Catoe • Season 1 • Episode 105

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It's a celebration of the Senate's attempt to codify the protections of same sex and interracial marriages!

Question for the Week
What is advent? Why does it matter?

Special Guest:
Colin Kerr, Pastor, Parkside Church

Guest Question:
I am interested and curious about Christianity, faith, and church community. But I don’t know where to start and it all seems so complicated, and at times controversial. Can anyone help me?

Resource:
Faith Hope Love: The Essentials of Christianity for the Curious, Confused, and Skeptical

For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith,

Speaker 2:

Whether it be faith in God, faith in others, or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program and Unbound, the interactive journal on Christian Social Justice for the Presbyterian Church usa. I am your host, Lee Cato,

Speaker 1:

And I'm your host Simon Doune.

Speaker 2:

Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.

Speaker 1:

Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast. I am joined as always by the wonderful, the delightful Lee Cato Lee, how are you?

Speaker 2:

Hey Simon. Hello everybody. I'm in tie dye today. It's a gray tie dye. It's about as wild as I get, but

Speaker 1:

I says the most color,

Speaker 2:

I feel very nice.<laugh>. This is the, this is how the sky looks right now. It's very rainy, so I just dressed with the weather, but yeah, how are you?

Speaker 1:

I'm good. It has snowed a couple times out here in Idaho and I finally got myself a pair of boots.

Speaker 2:

Oh, well it was time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah,

Speaker 2:

Like hiking boots or like dress boots.

Speaker 1:

They're like, they're described as winter hiking boots.

Speaker 2:

Ah.

Speaker 1:

So they're a little lighter than standard boots, but they're more flexible.

Speaker 2:

Nice though.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. This probably won't surprise anybody, but basketball shoes on ice do not go well together.

Speaker 2:

No.

Speaker 1:

Do well slide a lot. And also your feet will be cold. Uh, I haven't fallen yet, but I've come pretty close.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I, you know, we just got done talking about TikTok and one of the best, some of the best TikTok are when people fall if they don't get hurt.

Speaker 1:

Like when it's comical, not when it's painful,

Speaker 2:

When it's, I mean, I'm sure it's painful. I mean, I've fallen and it hurt, but there's some things you just can't not laugh about, which is, isn't that weird how falling has become funny.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. But I think that goes back to like America's Funniest Home videos. Do you remember that? Throwbacks folks, you know, it was half of America's home videos were people falling, people running into things, people tripping. Or like someone kicking a soccer ball and it bouncing off the bar and hitting the goalie in the face. I feel like that's like what half of that show was just now just permeates YouTube and TikTok,

Speaker 2:

Things

Speaker 1:

Like that.

Speaker 2:

Have you seen the video? I think it's a TikTok where the preacher sends, this is a fate podcast, so this preacher has like a coffin. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, it's supposed to be like an Easter of the tomb. And he gets into it and it's like standing up.

Speaker 1:

Ooh.

Speaker 2:

And then of course he's gonna fall. Right. And he falls and it's like a domino effect. Like he tips over something and then it just kind of like destroys the entire like altar or whatever it's called. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and everybody in the, like, everybody's like praising the Lord and stuff as one of those traditions and all, you can hear people being like, and then he falls and it's really funny.

Speaker 1:

Nice.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes being in a church makes it even more funny.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I don't know why, but,

Speaker 1:

Well you, well, you know, I think there's probably nothing more likely to be a tripping hazard than the little steps that you have to go up to get from the floor. Yeah. To whatever level the pulpit or podium is, is on, on, at the front of the sanctuary. There's always like one or two steps and I'm like, someone's not gonna notice it and they're gonna step back and they're not gonna step up enough and down, there're gonna go.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. People don't notice things I learned. I mean, you just learned, people just don't notice steps. It's just not very accessible. But sometimes people in churches just do too much. It's like, we don't need you to reenact it. It's fine. We, it just, it just leaves space for people to fall and make fools of themselves.

Speaker 1:

So Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know, if you're in a church, don't use a casket and try to get in cuz she might fall.

Speaker 1:

Yep.

Speaker 2:

Or anything. Don't, don't swing from tight ropes. I saw that on a video the other day too. It was like, try to make church simple. Somebody posted on Facebook and it's just like people suspended in the air.

Speaker 1:

Oh my.

Speaker 2:

Isn't that wild? But anyway, we digress.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well speaking of falling, if you fall in love,

Speaker 2:

<laugh>. I'm trying folks. I'm

Speaker 1:

Trying. If you fall in

Speaker 2:

Love thinking of being suspended in the air<laugh>,

Speaker 1:

If you fall in love, at least so far the Senate has passed the Respect for Marriage act. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, which will protect your marriage and union particularly, uh, for same sex and interracial marriages. Uh, the final vote in the Senate was 61 to 36 and it will now go to the house to be approved before it'll be sent to President Biden's desk to be signed into law. Um, so that is kind of exciting. And obviously we hope it gets passed in the house and then it can be on the president's desk and not be a question Yeah. Anymore.

Speaker 2:

Thankfully we heard about this when we were in, uh, Israel Palestine. We heard about the decision will likely be made and right afterwards we saw a rainbow in the sky. Isn't that fascinating?

Speaker 1:

Spirit works in mysterious ways.

Speaker 2:

It really does. It is very exciting. And to be a part of a denomination that has just has recognized and affirmed the identities, gender identities and sexualities of people and marriage and all those kinds of things, it means a lot to me. And it is a big step because Republicans, there was Republicans who voted for it at 12, I believe. Yeah. And a little bit has to do with the Mormon church because they're kind of becoming a little more lenient in it, which is surprising for some, but not surprising for others. Cuz you know, there's gay people, people everywhere. And I think that that is something that is pretty fascinating. And also I'm very grateful for it because it is scary as someone who is a part of that community. So if you're out there and you support us, support the people, say it in your churches and get involved and hopefully, cuz I'm guessing the house will now have to pass it and then it'll have to go through some procedure like that and then it goes to the president's desk. But

Speaker 1:

Yep. And as someone who is, for lack of a better word, the result or product of an interracial marriage,

Speaker 2:

Right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I'm very thankful for, uh, for my parents being able to get married. So yeah, it's

Speaker 2:

Wild.

Speaker 1:

Protect the marriages.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, indeed. Even though marriage is hard, but, you know, I've gotta protect them. But yeah. Thankful to, to that, that's exciting.

Speaker 1:

And we are also in that time of year in which we are in Advent, we are just past Thanksgiving. Uh, as of a time this episode comes out, it will be the very first day of December, which is also exciting. And we have a question written in about Advent.

Speaker 2:

That's a very simple one.

Speaker 1:

Very simple. Lee, why, why don't you get us started. Help me think through and answer this question. What is Advent and why does it matter? Matter?

Speaker 2:

So for whoever wrote this in, and for those of you out here who follow us, we are produced under the Presbyterian church usa. Although people all over the world and all over the place, listen to us, whatever tradition are in. But some traditions, not all in the Christian tradition, observe the liturgical calendar, which divides up the year into ordinary time. And there's a time of Pentecost, there's a time of advent. There is a season of Christmas. Christmas is not just one day, it's a season. And there's a season of epiphany as well. And we are in the time of advent, which is the time leading up to Christmas day, which is the birth of Jesus. But advent is also a time of reflection. It's a time of anticipation, it's a time of waiting. And so technically all of this, all the stores and stuff begin to decorate for Christmas during this time. But in some traditions in Christianity that doesn't happen until Christmas happens is when the festiv start, when the birth of Christ happens. And, and all of that thing. All that stuff. And so during Advent is a time of waiting. And we also reflect on different things within the Christian tradition. We reflect on what it means to have hope and what peace means, and what love means and what joy means. And usually within some traditions, they light advent wreaths, which is you light a candle at the first Sunday of Advent, which was this last Sunday. And all the way up, uh, until four weeks, you light a candle and then you like the Christmas candle, the Christ candle. And it's just a time of reflection. And again, it's a time of anticipation. And a lot of different places do devotionals. During Advent Unbound, which is what I'm the editor of, is doing an advent series this, this season called Divine Nebula because out of inspiration of the, the telescope pictures and what is the tele the telescope name? I can't remember.

Speaker 1:

It's not Hubble. It's the, uh,

Speaker 2:

It's the named after. It's other one. The recent ones.

Speaker 1:

I got it, I got it.

Speaker 2:

We're waiting for a research, our research assistant. Can you, can you chime here?

Speaker 1:

It's also named Simon.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Also named Simon. Simon, the research assistant. Can you

Speaker 1:

The Web Space telescope?

Speaker 2:

Right. So it was, it was just kind of inspired by those because out of a Nebula comes stars. So Nebula is a creative space. It's a space where things are birthed out of. And this advent series is about creative writing. And so we invited writers to write creative stories and short stories reflecting on scripture, which is a part of the lectionary. And that's just a series of scriptures that are divided into every day has a scripture. Every Sunday has a scripture. And so Unbound has a devotional with that. But there are so many other devotionals out there to kind of facilitate your anticipation or waiting. And it does matter because I do often think we skip to the time that is the fun time. Not saying this isn't fun, but we always skip to, to Jesus being born when there was so much beforehand, when there was so much that happened. You know, in that anticipation there was so much in the storylines, in the narratives of, of all of that. And, and so it is important for us not to always rush things, not to always be. So we gotta get into the holiday, we gotta get to Christmas. And even though I listen to Christmas music the day after Thanksgiving, and so there are advent hymns that you sing. You don't sing the Christmas hymns because it's a time of waiting. And so I think it is important because it really does, it really does create that build of anticipation, which people did, you know. And and I think that that's a part of it. It's all about the journey and not necessarily about the, the destination in a lot of time. But what do you think, Simon?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I really like this idea of waiting and counting down and building momentum and expectation, if that makes sense. But also recognizing that there's so much value, as you were saying, in the journey and in the waiting itself. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> the time to reflect, the time to think about what it means when you finally get to do, get to the end. I don't think we spend enough time doing that, especially in today's go-go society. It's like, we just gotta get to it. Yeah. Just gotta get through it. Let's just get to the end already. And I think actually some of the best, for lack of a better word, best Christmases or best advent seasons I've had isn't the ones when I was thinking about Christmas the least and focus the most on just the, the slow buildup to it, the things I was doing, whether it be in church or with friends and family, to not just, for lack of a better word, get in the Christmas spirit, but to think about what it means when we actually do get to Christmas. Cause it makes that Christmas day also and that Christmas celebration much more special. And as we, we mentioned last year with, uh, Rosa and Edwin, the co-hosts of our Spanish language podcast in equestrian de and other cultures, advent and sort of the Christmas season extends beyond just December 25th. Yeah. Which is pretty amazing. So it's like, there's even more to be waiting for and more to be celebrating, which I think is really amazing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And epiphany is a big, and epiphany is that time where the, well, we say the wise man, but this really like the Magi and we don't even really know if there was, there was probably more than three, but a lot of things are kind of construed in some ways. But just this time of like, of this epiphany that the child is born and what do we, what do we do with that? And kind of like, how are we, it's, it's like the time where, where many cultures receive gifts because the gifts the Magi brought to the, the Christ child, they don't even, we don't necessarily give gifts on Christmas. It's all an epiphany. So a lot of things are very different, but I I do agree. It's, it's almost, and, and this is not, I'm not comparing the Lord of the Rings to the birth of Jesus, but the, whenever the Lord of the Rings came out, it always came out during Christmas, like during the, like December. And I remember watching the trailers, I remember like just that anticipation of us going and the planning of it all and the fact that like, I was gonna get to see it with my cousins who that then came a tradition when those movies were out and we were devastated when they stopped making them. But I just remember like the buildup and like the planning and then like the dinner beforehand and, and all this other stuff that it just created something that was a lot more than just the movie. You know, like it's a lot more than just the, the major scene. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. It's so funny you bring up Lord of the Rings because the Hobbit films came out while I was in college and they also usually came out in December and it was a tradition with some of my friends from back home. We would come back from college for winter break and we would go see the Hobbit movie, whatever it was together, and we'd go get food and it became part of, part of the winter tradition. And to an extent that's been the tr that's been true with the latest round of the newest Star Wars trilogy as well. Yeah. That they often come out around that December winter timeframe. So it's interesting how we start to associate other things with this time of the year. But again, yeah, that waiting, planning, anticipation patient. And so folks, why don't you write into us at Faith podcast@psa.org and let us know how you are celebrating Advent. How do you wait? Is there a certain thing that you like to do to reflect during this waiting period? Or is there anything else that you like to do in order to be thinking about the coming birth of Jesus?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And if you're ever thinking about going to church and you haven't been in a while or you're just dipping your toes into it, it might be a great time to go because I do think you get introduced to not only what Advent is and the tradition that this could be, this is something that might be new for you, but it might be a good way to just kind of become aware or it might give you a different ritual during this time. So yeah, if you're interested in that, it might be a good time to visit. And our guest Colin will give you tips if you are a first time person. So I just wanted to mention that before we talk to him. So yeah. Well, joining us day on the podcast is a very special guest. We are welcoming Colin Kerr, who is the pastor at Parkside Church in my native state of South Carolina in Charleston, South Carolina. Welcome Colin to the podcast.

Speaker 3:

Hey y'all, thanks for the shout out of the great city of Charleston.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we're really grateful to have you on the podcast today to help us think through a question that has been written in, uh, the question reads. I am curious and interested in Christianity, faith and church community, but I don't know where to start. And it all seems so complicated and at times controversial. Can anyone help me?<laugh>? Colin, can you help this person?<laugh>, can you help us?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, can you help us, Colin?

Speaker 3:

Can I just start with saying like, I feel this person's like every word they wrote, I feel it in my bones and I'm, and I wanna be like, oh, no, no, it's quite simple, it's quite easy. Uh, but the person is, I wanna say the person has discerned rightly, uh, that Christianity is complicated and it can be controversial. Uh, and, and so I think the person may actually know more than they're giving themselves credit for because what they are picking up on the beautiful and sometimes messy diversity that is, uh, the Christian, uh, experience and the expression of Christianity that exists in 21st century western world. So props to your questioner for, for already kind of picking up on, on the vibe right now. So, but hopefully yes, hopefully you can, we can give this person maybe some, some good places to start. And I, I, I would say if they're asking this question theologically, right, because there's really two major aspects to the, the Christian, uh, experience, at least in, in Western America. There's the beliefs and then there's the community. And so it sounds like this person is kind of interested in both, right? It's not purely an intellectual endeavor based on their question, nor are they just trying to find a place to, you know, meet some other people and hang out and do some churchy stuff. So to answer their first part of, well, how do, how do we start navigating the beliefs of Christianity? I always want to try to cut through a lot of the complications that people will experience when they start exploring different versions and denominations and doctrines of Christianity. Um, that if this person's kind of starting from a blank slate, I always wanna refer a person to say that Christianity begins and ends with the person and work of Jesus Christ. So that if you come to a conclusion about who Jesus is and what Jesus has done and perhaps what Jesus is even doing, right, everything else is just a, a matter of your own personal exploration over potentially the rest of your life. Um, and that if you, if you can settle on who Jesus is and what Jesus has done and what Jesus is doing, then everything else can kind of fall into place over time. Um, that, that is the, the beginning and the end, uh, of the, the Christian belief system. So I would, I would tell that person to say, start with the Jesus part, make sense of that, and then you can work your way out from there. And all the other really confusing things. The second part to their question, right, is this Christian community. Where do you start in Christian community? Cuz like someone looks at and goes, oh man, there's like, you know, a hundred depending how big your town is, like there's a hundred churches to pick from, right? It's a small town, you're really in trouble, right? But if it's a big town, you got, you have, you get, uh, almost like this option overload. So<laugh>, what do you do? Well, um, the, the key is to go to their, um, I think their, their FAQ pages. So if you're looking up at churches, like look at their FAQ pages, look at their beliefs and values, try to find a church that expresses, uh, their, uh, supportive curiosity and questions. That's always a green flag. If you don't see anything on their website that seems to, uh, celebrate questions or curiosity, that's a red flag. Second thing to look for is any expression of women in ministry. And that might seem odd, but I'll tell you why. That that's, I think it's important. Any church that is not going to support the inclusion of women in ministry is very unlikely gonna be a church that welcomes and celebrates questions and is gonna welcome and celebrate your spiritual journey. A church that does have women in ministry, just statistically speaking, is much more likely to be comfortable and welcoming of your questions and your exploration. And so I think that is one of the single most indicators, uh, of a church that is going to be a, uh, a healthy place for you to explore the basics of Christianity. Now, you may disagree, find out you disagree with'em on other issues down the road, and that's fine. But we're starting talking about someone who's just gonna explore the basics of Christianity, look to see whether they explicitly are excited about questions and look to see if they have some clarity about the role of women in ministry in their church.

Speaker 1:

I love that, especially because representation is so important. And then also it, it does speak to the values of a congregation in terms of who they're willing to empower and put in positions of, of leadership. When I was looking at this question, um, I was thinking about a, a post I saw on Facebook, which was, uh, the<laugh>, this is very macro, but it was a breakdown of the political affiliations of each major denomination.

Speaker 3:

Ooh.

Speaker 1:

And you know, it had Democrat, it had Republican, it had independent, and it just listed them all. And there was no caption to it. It was just, here you go, this is the breakdown. And I think that that is something else that I think people, when they're thinking about church and faith and community, sometimes we're getting caught up in the noise. That is the very macro perspective and it's easy to forget that, like you were saying, go to the individual church's website, see what that church is practicing, what values they are, um, lifting up and who they're, who they're lifting up in in terms of leadership. And so I appreciate also that you didn't start out with the big macro perspective. You went immediately to this is what you're, this is what it seems to be what you're looking for. Let's start there. And let's start with Jesus. Let's not get lost in the, the, the wider internet Twitter discourse that can often just lead us to feeling burnt out before we even even leave the social media page that we're, that we're looking at.

Speaker 3:

Oh, yeah. And, and that's I think a, a, a big problem right now because of social media and just the polarization of our culture is that, uh, we have a tendency to say when someone says like, Hey, I'm trying to explore Christianity, we instantly tend to go, well, join my tribe. Join my group. My group is the good group, my group is the, the rightest group, or the most inclusive group, or the most progressive or the most orthodox or whatever. You're, whatever you think is really important. Um, but really that doesn't necessarily help someone if they're just doing the basics of their spiritual journey. I would hope that, right? Like if someone says they're exploring Christianity and I have a conversation with them that they might be interested in, in my particular church and my particular expression of Christianity, but by no means is that necessarily going to be the best thing for them, particularly, uh, because our church has a ton of people in deconstruction in it, and a lot of people who are very academic. Um, and so if someone's exploring Christianity for the first time, I might not necessarily say like, come to my church. Right? Because, um, yeah, it's, it, the, the, the kingdom in terms of just the basics of the gospel can be far more broader than just our particular tribe. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And it's often the case that two, another thing that I've been talking about this past week with some churches at a conference that I was asked to be a kind of a facilitator in is also how faith communities and churches can be a very close knit group of people in a way. And it's kind of hard and it's also very daunting to kind of enter into a space like that as well. And even me, I've, I've moved to DC about a year and a half ago, and even as an ordained minister, it is very daunting for me to go into a new space or new church to kind play even gay minister, even me, even me, I've always, but, but that's always been me too. That makes me very anxious. But I do think when you're entering into a space that has, like, everybody has a history, everybody has that community and mean, and it's even harder as an adult even to kind of make friends<laugh>. It's just hard to make friends as an adult when you're moving or when you're entering into a new space. And so, yeah, I wonder also about that, about like that vulnerability and that kind of like that that initiation of just kind of like going in and kind of going in with an open mind too, because I know sometimes I read on church websites that not, may not always be honest about some of the things that they have being a part of them. And so I I do know there's also that also skepticism because it's just very nerve-wracking to kind of go into a new space that may already have that community. And so I wonder what you might say to somebody there, but also say the churches that might have that kind of tight knitness that isn't always open to like someone new, even though they may say they do, if that makes sense.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I mean the<laugh> man is this not the, the problem of so many church communities, right? And this isn't a denominational issue or a liberal conservative issue, right? This is just like how many churches will say, oh, you know, we're a real welcoming church, or we're a real friendly church and what they mean, what they, what they wanna mean is, right. That like, oh, anyone can come and and feel the love here. Right? But what they actually practices, oh no, we're really excited to see each other<laugh>. Yeah. But, and then<laugh> and then, but the person who comes in for the first time, they're like, whoa, who, who, who is this person? Or they just more likely they just ignore them, right? And so the test of any church, now this is church self-evaluation, right? Is that like, it's not whether you and your buddies think you're a welcoming, friendly church, right? It's, it's whether you have, uh, clear and explicit testimony of people who have recently visited your church, maybe joined and said, you know, when I came I didn't know a soul and people talked to me and reached out to me. Um, that though is the biggest challenge though. I think for, if you are a person who's wanting to explore church for the first time and you walk in it, you're right, it can be daunting. Um, cuz I think either one of two things happens. Either A, you get ignored or b if you walk in right and you're under the age of 40 and this church is not necessarily like a super hip church, right? They're gonna be like, oh my gosh, a human under the age of 40<laugh>. And then suddenly everyone's recruited you for like five ministries. Um, that also can freak people out. Um, so, but honestly I don't think there's a way i i this maybe this is gonna give this person like no hope, but like I don't think there's a way to know if the church is gonna be truly welcoming, right? That's that's a, that's a you you can't broadcast, you can't make a doctrine into that. You can't write it out. It's, it's gotta be experienced. Obviously if you get, you look at their website or you look at a Facebook page or their Instagram, if you see multiple generations, that's a good sign. Yeah. Right. And obviously you have multiple generations in a church, then there's an indication that they're gonna be more like inclusive of different people. Um, but yeah, sometimes you just, you just gotta try that one. I don't know, Leah, have you had this experience? Like you walk in and like you're like, I don't know what I'm gonna

Speaker 2:

Experience. Oh, it's, it's happened. It is one of two things. You are either ignored, which in some cases with me that's fine because I kind of just want to like observe. And I think some people are like that some, and that's another thing, it depends on the person, right? Some people just kind of want to go and just see what it's about and not necessarily have the pressure of talking to someone or, or anything like that. And, and it's also just hard to approach people. But there is the other end of it to where you are seen, I mean, I'm 34 years old and I'm still, I I feel like I'm looked at like I am just like, like a 20 year old half the time. Because in church age, I mean 34 is young and you do get approached almost. It it is very overbearing I think too. And it's almost, yeah, it's very off putting. And so I can definitely see that. And, and I think some of that, I mean that definitely is kind of the weirdness of how, you know, people want their church to keep going and there's like some fear there. And then it also manifests in this like you're just being a little too much. And, and I think there is some, there is some questions that I also have about like authenticity. When you enter a space, it's like, let's just be yourself and we can see how that goes. Um, but it is, you know, it is very daunting for, for people. So I do appreciate that sometimes you just have to take the plunge. And I think that for some people that's easy and for others it might not be. But yeah, y'all, maybe you just have to,

Speaker 3:

But bring a buddy buddy. System's good. Don't sit in the back pew. I, and I know your li your listeners is maybe trying to like support church go No, no, no. Sit in the back pew. No, no. Sit in the second to last Pew much more strategic because I'll tell you, if you sit in the back pew, everyone's gonna know you're the new person. The new person always sits in the back pew. Cause they think they can, you know, escape, right? It's, you know, but no, like if you sit in the back pew pew, like people are gonna get eyes on you. So if you really want to go in low key, second to last few be much safer.

Speaker 1:

I like this pro tips for, for church newbies. That's great. There's another,

Speaker 3:

I dunno if you are thinking I'm serious right now or I'm joking. I<laugh>

Speaker 1:

I think it's great. No, I'll be honest, I have, I know people who are regular church members and still always sit in the back pew because for that exact reason they can escape quickly and easily, um,<laugh>. And I'm like, why are you doing that? You can sit a little closer up. You're a part of this community, you've been here for years. I also think that there's a part of this question that is about, you know, exploring faith and coming to understand Christianity, which relates to sort of knowledge and education as well. And I think it can be pretty overwhelming for someone new to come in and be like, I don't actually know that much about the Bible. I don't know the books, I don't know what the books of the Bible are. I don't know their names. I need to use the table of contents. The pastor at some point in the sermon is gonna, men might mention a word in Hebrew or Greek. Everyone else will have so much more knowledge they already know about these things that I'm just totally new to. And that can be kind of intimidating. And I'm wondering, uh, any advice or guidance you have for, for not, I don't wanna say to not give into that, but just so that that is not hindering someone from trying to enter a space as well. If that makes sense. Because I do think that that can be, that can be overwhelming and intimidating. Be like, oh well I'm gonna be the only one who doesn't know I wasn't raised in the church. Or if we were raised in the church, I was raised in a church and we learned things one way and this church does it so differently, I feel lost.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Uh, I think one of the, the healthy postures to have is actually don't, don't assume that everyone around you knows more than you. And even if they do, you can be pretty, pretty assured that there's gonna be a lot of things that are said or done that they don't actually understand fully either, and that they don't actually get right. Like when that pastor says that Greek or Hebrew word, you can be assured that unless he's explaining it, there's a bunch of other people who don't know what that word either. Um, and that the way the service is done, like in like the, the elements and the, the, the, the process of worship, there's probably a lot of things that people have quote gotten used to, but they still don't know why it's getting done. And so you actually have this wonderful opportunity, uh, if you're a person who cares about like the communal development to, to ask questions about like, what does this mean? Why is this done? Uh, to have this like posture of curiosity, which actually is super, I don't say just like it's relieving for other people because I can't tell you how many people have been like in a church for like, even years and they don't know why certain things are done or said. And then someone one day who's new goes, ah, why do we do this? And then, then like everyone goes, oh, oh dude, I've always wondered that too. Thanks for asking, but I never wanted to ask. So yeah, don't assume that people know more than you. Uh, even if they do, don't, don't assume it cuz there's gonna be a lot of things they don't know. And so don't feel like you're, you're the odd person out too. Um, most people are actually really excited about your questions. Um, that, and again, if it's a healthy community, they will be excited about their your questions. They will welcome them, they will make space for them, they will make time for them. Uh, and that's a great diagnostic of any community you're, you're wanting to explore is that you're gonna have questions and you're hopefully you'll have questions for the rest of your life. So yeah, I think those are the, the, the two things that, uh, just to kind of keep in the back of your mind as you're entering into a, a new spiritual environment so that you don't kind of psych yourself

Speaker 1:

Out. I love that. And I'm a part of a, a young adult bible study that is made up of some people who were raised in the church, some people who are pastors kids, so very much raised in the church, some people who are seminarians, someone's doing a PhD in religion. But something that's really interesting is that we have someone in the group who wasn't raised in the church, wasn't raised in Christianity, and that person offers such a refreshing perspective because they'll ask questions about things that some of us, I think just sort of assume or assume away or just say that thing that everyone is thinking. But no one is saying, for example, I don't really know if I am comfortable with this version of God in this passage where God just seems angry and judging. I believe in the God of love. How am I supposed to reconcile what I'm reading here? I'm like, that's a great question that is very sometimes, uh, easy for those of us who might have read this passage a thousand times to forget to even look at that passage with that particular lens or that kind of a question. Uh, so I appreciate that you're, you're encouraging that person to, uh, not be afraid even if they feel like they don't know as much as, as other folks

Speaker 2:

And they can teach other people. That's the thing. I think people are often, so they're often just, we often feel sometimes that we're inadequate. And I think that's a part of like some kind of culture that maybe the church has kind of perpetuated too. And it's like, I mean, I was raised in the church, but there are things that I had no idea when I started working for the church. I never knew a lot of the things. And I think that also speaks to our kind of like interior language. We can get so used to and we can kind of talk in sp whatever specific denomination we're in and it, it kind of drives me up the wall how our languages, how our language within the church is so in sometimes and it's not very translatable to everybody else. And it does take, it really does take people who are outside of that world to kind of come in and say, hold on, that is not very translatable to the rest of the world. And it also really just doesn't make sense. And like you were saying, like, why are we doing these things? Why is it done this way? I mean, yeah, why are we singing this particular way? Or why are we not kind of inviting others into a conversation about how they may experience this? So I think, I think people often don't realize, yeah, how much they do have to offer and how much the church should be willing to listen to that. I think that that is also kind of a mutual relationship that I think we could continue to open up and say, you know, if you want people to be curious about the church, you have to be ready for what that curiosity brings because that curiosity will bring, it's gonna mess up on some of the things that you're used to and it's gonna change some of the things that you've been used to for this long because you want people to, you want people to still be curious and you want people that's been in the church for, for however long they've been in to stay curious about it too. And so I really do appreciate that too, to kind of say you have something to offer as well. And it's not just a one-sided thing that the church has.

Speaker 3:

We're a huge blessing to the church. I mean, I, I can't, I cannot express enough gratitude for the folks that are coming in who are exploring or new to faith or feel like they don't know much. They are so helpful, uh, in the life of our community. And I frankly find them a, a breath of fresh air.

Speaker 1:

Well, Colin, we are so grateful that you were able to join us on the podcast and think through these, these questions and hopefully the the person that wrote in, uh, feels like maybe they have maybe not the answers, but they know what kinds of questions to ask, if that makes sense. Yeah. And uh, you're also the author of a, a wonderful book, uh, called Faith Hope, love the Essentials of Christianity for the Curious, confused and Skeptical, and we'll be sure to have a link to that in the show notes. Just wanted to ask if you wanted to say anything about your book for our listeners to know about.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, thanks, uh, always appreciate the chance for the plug. I think it's, uh, a pretty good book for folks that are doing the exploration of Christianity. Uh, it originally came out of eight years of college ministry and what happened was, I, I would be getting a lot of college students from small rural towns and they would have maybe had just one kind of background in a, a particular Christian tradition, right? And they get to college and suddenly they're meeting all sorts of people from all different religious backgrounds and all different belief systems and all different denominations of Christianity. And they would have these like existential crises of faith, right? Where they're like, I don't even know what Christianity is anymore. And, and so they kept being like, just what, what are the basics? What, what, what are, what are the things that are, are are trans denominational, right? Um, and surprisingly, I, I looked a long time to find a book that I could give to, to students say, just read this and this will give you the basics. And what I what happened was I ran into like these kind of three different types of books. I'd find a, a systemic theology book, systematic theology that was, was great, but like 300 pages long and what college students got time for that, right? Or I would find a more accessible book. Uh, but it was usually a had a fundamentalist bent. And so they would put things like, uh, you have to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old or you can't be a Christian. Which is like, okay, cool, that's a belief system of certain segment of Christianity, but that's not the basics of Christianity. That's not a trans denominational belief of orthodox Christianity. And so I'm like, I'm literally like cutting out pages of some books being like, read this book, don't mind the pages I cut out. And then there's like books that are, uh, you know, things from CS Lewis, John Stat, um, kind of like some great thinkers of the 20th century, but they're operating under a, a modern mindset, which for their audience, a lot of the stuff they say in explaining the basics of Christianity made sense to their modern audience, but they end up taking a lot of assumptions that don't fit with our contemporary postmodern audiences. And so I found books like Me, Christianity, uh, really came up short with contemporary college students. So after a while I just gave up and just said, it'll be quicker for me to write my own book<laugh> and get it in their hands. And so I wrote it and then, uh, I kept editing it with the help of agnostics and atheists and other non-Christians and having them read it and edit and give feedback until finally an agnostic read and said, okay, everything you've written makes sense. I get what you're saying. And then I said, right, the book is completed. Uh, and that's, that's when I went to publish. Awesome. Well, we'll make sure to have every, all the links on our show notes for the book. And yeah, I wish I had had that because I also had a theological crisis when I went to college and I had a mini one when I went to Diviv school. I was more prepared for the Diviv school crisis than I was for my younger crisis, uh, because even, even at Divinity School, I had multiples, multiple crises as well. So I wish I had had this when I was younger. And so yeah, we'll make sure that the link is in the show notes. And again, Colin, thank you for being with us. This was awesome to have you. My pleasure, y'all. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:

This has been the matter of Faith Podcast brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program in Unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so at Faith Podcast at P C O S a.org. We look forward to hearing from you. See you next time.

Speaker 2:

See you next time y'all. Thanks everyone for listening to the podcast this week. We have so many episodes. I think I'm just gonna stop saying the numbers, but there's a lot. But thank you so much for joining us for this week, and we just wanna remind you that if you want to check out our listening guides, which kind of takes our episodes and puts them into themes and gives you some reflection questions to dive into our episodes, check those out on our website at a matter of eight podcast.com. And we would love for you to subscribe and we would also love for you to leave us a review. It doesn't take very long. It's five stars and maybe a little sentence, especially if you're on Apple or Spotify. We would love to have reviews. But again, thank y'all so much. We love you. Keep the questions coming and we will talk to you again next week. Happy Advent.