This week, we congratulate the reelection of Rev. Dr. Warnock as the Senator of Georgia and we also send out prayers to everyone who finds themselves in a situation of self-harm. WE LOVE YOU AND WE SEE YOU.
Question for the Week:
Christmas time can be very joyful and celebratory. But it can also be hard, tense or weird at times. How do we navigate all that the Christmas time brings as people of faith?
Special Guest:
Jay-Paul Hinds, Assistant Professor of Pastoral Theology at Princeton Theological Seminary
Guest Question:
When we talk about addressing issues like racism and poverty, we don’t always focus on the spiritual care and spiritual needs of people of color, and particularly members of the Black and African American community. What would spiritual nourishment and empowerment look like and what is the best way to provide it without reinforcing problematic, systemic issues?
A Gift Grows in the Ghetto: Reimagining the Spiritual Lives of Black Men
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
This week, we congratulate the reelection of Rev. Dr. Warnock as the Senator of Georgia and we also send out prayers to everyone who finds themselves in a situation of self-harm. WE LOVE YOU AND WE SEE YOU.
Question for the Week:
Christmas time can be very joyful and celebratory. But it can also be hard, tense or weird at times. How do we navigate all that the Christmas time brings as people of faith?
Special Guest:
Jay-Paul Hinds, Assistant Professor of Pastoral Theology at Princeton Theological Seminary
Guest Question:
When we talk about addressing issues like racism and poverty, we don’t always focus on the spiritual care and spiritual needs of people of color, and particularly members of the Black and African American community. What would spiritual nourishment and empowerment look like and what is the best way to provide it without reinforcing problematic, systemic issues?
A Gift Grows in the Ghetto: Reimagining the Spiritual Lives of Black Men
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Hello, and welcome to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question, because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith,
Speaker 2:Whether it be faith in God, faith in others, or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program and Unbound, the interactive journal on Christian Social Justice for the Presbyterian Church usa. I am your host, Lee Cato,
Speaker 1:And I'm your host Simon Dune.
Speaker 2:Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.
Speaker 1:Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast. I am joined as always by the wonderful, the what color is that sweater, actually? Oh, no. Is it, it looks purple on my
Speaker 2:End. It's kind of purple, it's kind of gray. It's nice, you know, my color palette these days.
Speaker 1:Nice. Well, the fashionable mache show.<laugh>
Speaker 2:<laugh>,
Speaker 1:The Fashionable Leche Show. The Mav, how are you?
Speaker 2:I don't really know what Mav is, but I think this is Mav. I'm good, Simon. I'm, I'm actually, well, we both just found out we have maybe have some, some holidays after Christmas, and so now I'm looking for like a cabin to go to<laugh> as I'm talking to you. But I've stopped and yeah, I'm good. It's been, it's been a wild weekend. I went to a, a cool concert with Matt Rogers, speaking of podcasts. Lost Col. There's podcast co-host with Bo and Yang. I went to see his Christmas show this week, and it was really wonderful and maybe one of the gayest things I've ever seen.
Speaker 1:<laugh>.<laugh>. Nice.
Speaker 2:So it was a very gay night, which was wonderful. Nice. And our real housewives of Potomac showed up, which was a surprise. She was there and it was wonderful. She's beautiful, Candace, and yeah, it was a great weekend. We had, we went to see some Christmas lights, which I love. Not many people know that I'm kind of obsessed with Christmas lights and is The season
Speaker 1:Is the season. Christmas lights are really, really beautiful. Especially when, you know, you can have a lot of lights. You could have just a few lights, but mm-hmm.<affirmative>, whatever you have. It's always nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Put'em up. I mean, we just put some up in front of our building and we went to the zoo to see lights. And I will say I was very disappointed, but it was also free.
Speaker 1:<laugh>.
Speaker 2:I, when, I'll say, when I wanna see lights, I wanna see, I wanna see lights. Right. I want it to be like Clark Griswold, if you've never seen that movie, which is a tradition of ours. National Lampoon's Christmas vacation.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I like the Griswold gaudy. Lot of lights. Love it.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:So, yeah,
Speaker 1:So out here in, in where I'm at in Idaho, the, uh, sort of primary plan for a lot of folks is to put their Christmas lights up immediately after Thanksgiving, sometimes even earlier, because you wanna put them up before it starts snowing, which this year was a good decision because it has snowed, I think, five or six times since Halloween.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 1:The people put their lights up, but some people have some really, really nice lights, which I, I always enjoy. Yeah. Going past and checking out. And, uh, I actually, I have a very deep thought for you, Lee, that I wanna share with our audience. Oh, very deep.
Speaker 2:About lights, or is this,
Speaker 1:Uh, this is like about something that we talked about on a previous podcast episode. Oh, okay. Cool. So folks might remember that I mentioned a couple episodes back that I was playing a game called Power Wash Simulator<laugh>, and I'll have folks know that there are quite a few games in this simulator genre. There's Power Wash Simulator, there is Car Mechanic Simulator, there is Lawn Mowing Simulator. But do you know what? There is not Snow Re like snow removal simulator. Snow shoveling simulator. Where is the snow shoveling simulator games?
Speaker 2:That would be really interesting. I bet that would also be satisfying.
Speaker 1:It would, I think it could be very cathartic, for lack of a better word. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> though, I will say, if they wanted to make the game be realistic, it also means that once you shovel, you're not actually done because you have a layer of ice that you just have to hope the temperature gets above freezing so that it can melt and go away. Otherwise, you never really feel like you're entirely done.
Speaker 2:So it's not very satisfying.
Speaker 1:So it may be less satisfying, but it could be fun. Yeah. Just putting it out there for the I'm putting it out. Or
Speaker 2:You should make it. You should make it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But the thing is that I'm shoveling enough that I don't wanna make a game about
Speaker 2:<laugh>. I cannot imagine shoveling that much. I don't, don't think I could imagine that, but I bet Christmas lights do look better in the snow.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely. And especially when you have icicles that are two or three feet long.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's dead. That's deadly.
Speaker 1:But yeah. But it's, it is very pretty. That's
Speaker 2:Beautiful. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. So we should make a, we should make a call out to our listeners. If y'all have Christmas lights, we wanna see them. Faith Podcast at Peace u s a.org.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:You should send Yeah, send or tag us on Instagram.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Or
Speaker 2:Tag us a matter of fake podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And if we really like'em, maybe we'll, you know, we'll share them. We'll be like, these are our favorites, or our top three.
Speaker 2:Even if we don't like'em, we'll, we might share them<laugh>. They can't just be like one little, little strand<laugh>. They have to be something,
Speaker 1:Have to be someone just sends us a picture of like an electric candle in a window.
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah. They have to be a little more than that. They have to be, they have to have some effort and they have to be beautiful.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And speaking of beautiful, we have a new senator for children. Well, it's not new. Reelected.
Speaker 1:Reelected, yeah. Warnock
Speaker 2:Has b has won the Senator election in Georgia. This happened Tuesday evening. And, you know, we had to mention it because for one, you know, it got a little dicey there, and it shouldn't have been that close<laugh> I'll say. Um, but, uh, Warnock is also a Reverend Reverend Dr. Warnock. And it's just very interesting in his acceptance speech to, you know, claim that in a way that we try to claim our faith on this podcast and how we are using our, we, we use our faith and we reflect our moralities through our faith and wanna see to change for good. And he kind of mentioned all that in his speech, and it was just, it was just a, a great speech to kind of see how faith, when it's been talked about in the political discourse in a different way. I mean, we've seen it before, but for him to be the pastor of a very historic church, Ebenezer Baptist Church that has that history, but also, you know, he is, he claims that in a way that's just very powerful and meaningful. So congratulations to Senator Elect Warnock. Yeah. Um, it was a good day to see that as, as people of faith, then I was very proud to see that happening
Speaker 1:And maybe not as good a day for, for a few other, uh, political leaders. This came out the other day, and I, I will say, I just wanna put a warning here, that there is discussions of self-harm potentially in this news segment story that we're about to share. Yeah. But, um, police were called to the home of Senator Ted Cruz because there was a, a young woman reported to have, uh, self-inflicted wounds. Um, and so obviously there's not a lot of details right now, but no matter who you are, if you need help or if you are in a bad place, just know that there are those out there that can help you regardless of what's going on in your life. I've been seeing a lot of things on Facebook lately about also, again, I, sorry, I should preface this by saying, I don't know if this was related to suicide or not, but even if it wasn't, I have been seeing on Facebook a lot, um, the number being shared for the, I believe it's the National Suicide Hotline, 9 88.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we wanted to highlight that and lift that up as a resource for everyone. Yeah. Because mental health matters and your life and wellbeing matters. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, it matters. And as we like to say, if it matters to you, it matters to us. And sometimes it may not feel like something matters to you, but it still matters to us here. Right. And it does around you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it's, it's, so I, and I follow a lot of Twitter threads and te his daughter, I mean a teenager, and I think recently came out as bye. And so I wanted to mention that because, you know, I don't know, I have my own story of self-harm. And those stemmed from a variety of different things. And looking back on it, you didn't know what it stemmed from until you<laugh>, until you went to therapy, and you figured it all out. But it, it is just very interesting that a person, a person's daughter, and said person may not be what you want to agree with or not in the political realm. I don't agree with anything he does. But to have any child or any person that you are, that are, that you're close to, this is always a difficult thing no matter how much you have perpetuated that or not unknowingly or unknowingly. So I hope people who do respond to this center her and not make jokes, because I've seen that, I've seen them saying, well, or pointing to Ted Cruz and, and kind of a shameful way. And like, I don't know if there's a place for that, but I do think no matter what anybody is going through, um, I think we should all realize that, you know, folk, no matter where we sit on the spectrum, a lot of things are going on, especially when you're a teenager. I mean, being a teenager is hard. And then adding on a layer of like all this societal stuff that pressures you, but all these systems that want to oppress you. And, and yeah, it's, it's really sad. But we are sending prayers for her. And again, anybody who is going through this, it's, you don't know why Exactly. Sometimes somebody will do it. And that coming from someone who has had that experience. So yeah, we wanted to mention it because the church doesn't often talk about this. And even when we have biblical narratives that speak to it, I always bring up the, the Garrison Democ who in the story said that he, they, he was harming himself. He was cutting himself on the stones. Now the translation says he is bruising himself, but that's not the real word. The real word was he is actually cutting himself on stones and out of grief, out of isolation, out of all these things. And so even within our tradition, we have stories that speak to this. And so we need to talk about it more too, and kind of get rid of that stigma. So, so yeah. We're sending prayers to her today.
Speaker 1:Yep. And especially at, you know, this time of year where we're in Advent, we are getting ready to celebrate the birth of Jesus, which is a very joyous thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:This time of the year is also hard for folks for varieties of reasons. We have a question written in about just that question reads Christmas time can be very joyful and celebratory, but it can also be hard tense or weird at times. How do we navigate all that the Christmas time brings as people of faith?
Speaker 2:Hmm. That's hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And, and we will also preface like, we're gonna be talking about this a little bit in episodes that are coming later, a little more pointed a little more directly, but Yeah, it's a weird time. We were just talking about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that I, I like the use of the phrase hard tense or weird because wow, it is joyful and there is, there is gift giving and people and family coming together. Sometimes that's not always easy. And I think something that it took me a long time to realize as I got older is that even when people who really like each other get together or love each other get together, that doesn't mean there's not gonna be tension or Right. Some, or, you know, someone might have beef with someone for whatever reason. And it's not, it doesn't have anything to do with you, it's just the personalities of these two people when they come together or you come together and you are reminded of the family member that isn't with you anymore, that isn't sitting at the table. And that can be hard. That kind of is a downer.
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:For the, you know, for the, for everyone. And that's something that you also kind of have to navigate. And it can feel very weird to be like, well, I wanna be happy and like celebrating, but also I'm, I'm kind of sad right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And giving your, giving ourselves permission to, I think for me it's giving yourself permission to even feel that and not kind of have this weird expectation that the Hallmark movies, I mean, but even Hallmark movies pointed out<laugh>, that's like the whole basis of their storyline is that the holidays can be hard and, and that it, that it's not always this happy-go-lucky time because you do throw people in that's different dynamics. And like, the holidays are not easy for me at all. And we were, we were just talking before this, like, it just, you know, when you grow up and you live a little life and you see how things are, it doesn't, you don't have that kid, I don't know, the fluffy feeling of the holidays, which sometimes I miss. And I think that's why I love Christmas like so much. I, I even love them as a kid because it was kind of an escape type thing to just go look at something that is really pretty and, uh, festive and joyful. Yeah. It's, and it's also, yeah, it's also just being honest with yourself, I think, because that took me a long time and I felt guilty by, by not feeling so happy go lucky about Christmas. And it was always a struggle for me, um, specifically after I came out. So it's, it's just not a, you know, you have family dynamics and, and the community knows this probably better than a lot of people do. And you make the decisions that are best for you if you, if it's not healthy for you to be around your bl biological family, chosen family is what we always say where we are happiest. But I know that's a journey too, um, to, to kind of let that go. And if you need to. And I think the best thing that I could say is I've done, I've done things in a way that I needed to keep myself healthy at times. And other times I've pushed myself to where I thought I needed to, to be at home. So it's, it is weird. It's a weird thing. And it's all clouded under a very commercialized thing of what the holidays is, cuz the Biblical Christmas and everything else wasn't
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All rosy and
Speaker 1:Yeah. Very not. So, and I'm glad you touched on the commercialization because it's so easy to also get caught up in the, the physical like gift giving part of Christmas mm-hmm.<affirmative>, which I'm not saying isn't great, but it's easy to lose yourself in it and kind of forget what's really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:When you get swept up in that. I think one of my<laugh>, one of my favorite quotes from Stephen Colbert, this is back when he still had the Colbert report, was that Christmas is the Christmas in the, in the Western commercialized world is so greedy that it is eating other holidays that Yeah. The, you know, talking about Black Friday and, and people not being able to celebrate Thanksgiving and whatnot. Let's not allow ourselves to be consumed. Right. Or to just be consumers. Let's be active. And that active includes, like you were saying, Lee, letting us feel our feelings and also trying to be with the people that we are able to be with mm-hmm.<affirmative> and do that intentionally.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And try to find joy in it, you know, I mean, going to see Matt Rogers framed in a Christmas concert was very joyful for me because it was one of the more authentic ways in which I can celebrate Christmas myself. And finding those moments where you can do that. Um, I think it's also a lot more complicated than people may want to, to realize. And we also don't know what people are going through during the holidays. And I think that's something we also all need to kind of realize is that we shouldn't be projecting or ha or putting expectations on people that this is how we need to act or, uh, this is how you should be acting. Like I should never be, like, everybody needs to think critically about Christmas all the time cuz that's projecting onto somebody who may really love the holidays<laugh> and may need to think about it a little critically. But I would never take that away from somebody, you know, like I would, I don't think we, I think there's a, there is a balance of, of what it should mean. And I think sometimes in progressive circles like ours, it may trend on almost being so critical that the joy is drained out of it because there was joy in the Christmas story. It was surrounded by a lot of terrible things, but there was joy in that moment, you know, and going to Israel Palestine a a month ago, there was joy there. And we always have this like direness that we place on certain contexts and populations of people. But I do think it also is giving us ourselves permission to enjoy it. And I think that's hard, even if we have a ne negative con con connotation with the holiday too. Like, I have to remind myself that you can enjoy this. It's problematic sometimes, but you can also enjoy it. So put up some Christmas lights. That's always helpful.
Speaker 1:Or turn on that, that Christmas movie. Yeah, that Christmas. What's your
Speaker 2:Favorite?
Speaker 1:My favorite Christmas movie? Yeah. The Muppet Christmas Carol.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love it too. That's a good wholesome one I like a little. That's the one I could watch with the kids.<laugh>,
Speaker 1:What's the one that you watch with the adults?
Speaker 2:<laugh>? Well, national Lampoon's Christmas vacation is is pretty That's fair. It's a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 1:That's fair.
Speaker 2:But then there's, I mean, but I'm also enjoying all these like, uh, Christmas movies that are coming out.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Netflix is really putting out a ton lately. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love a good cheesy Christmas movie. Now they can also be problematic. Right. Um, which is something we might talk about next time,<laugh>, but yeah. So go put up some Christmas lights, watch your cheesy Christmas movie and be around people you love. That's what I hope for everybody.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Well, joining us today on the podcast is a very special guest. We have j Paul Hines, who is the assistant professor of Pastoral Theology at Princeton Theological Seminary, and also the author of A Gift Roses in the Ghetto, re-Imagining the Spiritual Lives of Black Men. Thanks for joining us on the podcast. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me. Looking forward to the conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We're so grateful to have you with us. And we have a question for you, um, which touches on some of the, some of the aspects of your book as well, and we're hoping that you can help, help us think through it. Okay. The question reads, when we talk about addressing issues like racism and poverty, we don't always focus on the spiritual care and spiritual needs of people of color, and particularly members of the black and African American community. What would spiritual nourishment and empowerment look like? And what is the best way to provide it without reinforcing problematic systemic issues? That's a, that's a big question, but I'm glad we have you with us to help think through it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I don't know,<laugh>, that is a big question. Uh, number one, I think one of the problems we have when talking about matters of spirituality in the black or community is that we approach the community as though as a monolith. There is so much diversity, so much alterity, so much difference within the community that I think we always have to approach these questions with first being willing to be open to what the community has to say to us. I think one of the problems we have, especially in academia is that, I mean, we are trained to come up with answers oftentimes, uh, sometimes answers to questions that nobody's asking. So I think there is a, uh, need to be able to engage the community itself to see what kind of practices, what kind of, uh, beliefs are in the community that they're already using to address these crisis that they're facing. Poverty, uh, educational issues, uh, issues regarding, uh, identity. People in the black and African American community have been been addressing these for centuries. Uh, there are practices there. So, I mean, one of the, the myths I think that needs to be dispelled is like we have to create something new or some miracle needs to occur for, uh, change to come. No, I mean, there are practices already within the community itself, some that aren't exactly in, uh, congregational environments too. I mean, there are secular ways, uh, that people do address their, their current crisis. Uh, there's certain, uh, uh, stories that are embedded in the community, folk tales and so forth that have been used for centuries that we've oftentimes forgotten or ignored because especially in the Christian context, they don't align with scripture sometimes, uh, that we ignore. I think that needs to be changed. I mean, one of the things, one of the things I hope we can, uh, be more attentive to in the future are stories or practices that are embedded in the community already that people do use that have helped them not only to survive, uh, but also to, to seek various forms of liberation right now in whatever oppressive context they're in. So, yeah, I mean, I know some people will listen to this and say, well, you know, that's not really an answer to the question as far as giving something new. And yes, that's intentional. I don't think<laugh> something new is all you all the time. I mean, there, there, there are ways, again, that people have, uh, sought to, to survive, to thrive, to overcome, uh, to find ways of being, finding their own sense of humanity that we've, we have ignored for a long time. And maybe that's, that's the starting point I think we need to return to. And so, uh, one of the things I use now, this is a scriptural story, but one of the things I do in the book that I think is helpful and has been helpful for me is to on Earth without while term those latent stories, stories that aren't of often told in congregational context. Uh, so the story of Isma and Hagar, right? How did they survive in the wilderness? Uh, what tools do they have? What practices do they engage in? Uh, how do they formulate their own theology in this space? That's not something that we often talk about. I mean, we go right to the Exodus story or we go to prominent figures like Moses or Joshua or David, or we go to the stories of, of of, of, um, trial like Jesus in the wilderness. Uh, or one of the earliest stories of, of spiritual regeneration, spiritual birth is ishma in the wilderness. The story that we, especially in Christian context, we don't tell because he's not one of the chosen, the cho chosen persons in the scriptures. Um, so I mean, kind of looking for those unknown figures I think is something that would be helpful. Cause stories are there, uh, these kinds of stories of survival, again, liberation, uh, dealing with poverty, single motherhood, fatherlessness, uh, a loss of identity, all that stuff is InMail story. And so, I mean, if I could be of any help and, and kind of point in persons two, again, those latent stories that we oftentimes overlook, I think it's very helpful again, because I think the danger is we're waiting for something new. We're waiting for the miracle. We're, we're, we're making waiting for, um, a new figure, a new hero to emerge where we have persons already who have gone through some of the things that we're going through right now. So I think that would be helpful.
Speaker 1:I love that. And I appreciate that you point out that the place to start is where is with the, the gifts and the abilities of people that they already have now. Yeah. And also the work that, and the work that they're also trying to do. Yes. Uh, too often we try to reinvent the wheel or we're waiting, as you were saying, for, for something new or someone to come along that just has all of the abilities. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, and at the same time, or either that or we think as, especially when we're talking about spiritual nourishment and spiritual enrichment and, and empowerment, I think it's easy for people who are not, as you were saying, not of a, not of a community mm-hmm.<affirmative> taking that community, making them a monolith and assuming everyone needs the same thing. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah,
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then also assuming that maybe you already, you someone else might assume that they know what someone else needs, and that's not always true either. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, all this is contextual, uh, for me to be honest, Simon. I mean, there is no spiritual gift. I think all African American men need to take on or all black men. Uh, one of the beautiful things about the Isma story is that his gift, his relationship with God is where he learned to be a bowman. Right. And that was so specific to his cultural context. And I'm, I'm not saying that, uh, you know, black men should go out there and learn to be Bowman, no<laugh><laugh>. I'm saying, how does that relationship that you're, uh, forming with God, what gifts is it giving you? What abilities is it giving you in the modern inner city in the, in the modern ghetto? And I would take even further than that. One of the interesting things I've, I've had to learn is that when you talk about, um, kind of these experiences of being, uh, alienated or estranged or feeling lost or feeling like you have no identity, these are cross cultural, cross race, racial boundaries. This is not specific to the African American community. I feel they're more poignant in a lot of ways, uh, and more present in the African American community. But we are facing a crisis of manhood in our country. So I think over across the board, men in our current contexts don't know what to do. The jobs that used to give people a sense of, uh, uh, an identity aren't available anymore. I mean, you can't go to the, uh, to the factory build cars or have certain, um, societal clubs available in our environment anymore. That kind of gave men a sense of who they, not only who they are, though. Well, you know, what, they could be some of the strive for those kind of things are absent rituals that we used to have in our culture are no longer available. So there is a great sense of, uh, isolation alienation. That's why we grab towards, and social media is of course, is just a terrible area where there's so much to grab onto. Oftentimes a lot of, a lot of it is negative. So, I mean, what is specific to your context, your culture, that God can give you to be of assistance to persons in your environment? That's, that's it too. I mean, it'd be wrong for me to say, oh, God did all this forma, just forma. No, I mean, it's, it's, it's for, it's to help his mother Hagar and that wilderness environment. And also for the broader community too. So these relationships do start with us individually, but these gifts also needs to be used as a means of bettering our communities, not only the self, but our communities and our environments too. So I think that's another thing that needs to be emphasized. So, so that's why they had to be as culturally specific and as, uh, relevant to one's context as possible. Now, there are gifts that would help me in my, during my childhood childhood in East Orange. I wouldn't work, say in Atlanta, Georgia, or they wouldn't work in Los Angeles. You know, there's something specific to where, uh, I was then and, uh, that would've helped me improve not only myself, but my environment. And so that's kind of, kind of one of the things I'm trying to motivate person to try to try to discover. Not necessarily something that's gonna get you out the context, but something that can ultimately help you and also change the context that you're in, I think is, is needed too. So I hope that, uh, kind of, kind of gets to the, the question we're asked Simon.
Speaker 2:And, and that's something that I have been kind of talking up to a lot of people about, is trying to uncover a lot of spiritual practices or, or, or spiritual nourishment within my own community, but also talking to a lot of young folk who are looking at the church right now as the in institution and saying, maybe that's not<laugh> something that I'm down with anymore. Yeah. But kind of leaning back to, you know, these spiritual practices that we did lose. Yeah. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about why we lost them. I mean, it could depend on the context, but I think, I think losing those things has been intentional in some way. Like, systems have told us that that is not in which something that we should take part of, or even the church is telling us that we shouldn't be a part of. So I wonder how, why you might think those things ha been lost and, and why Yeah. Why did they need to be uncovered? Because they've been covered up in some ways intentionally. So I wonder what you might say about that
Speaker 3:Now, are you talking about, for instance, like rituals that may help persons gain a sense, sense of identity and so forth?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, and, and it's, yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. I, I, I don't know why they've been lost. Look, um, again, this is the argument of, you know, how how much has culture impacted, uh, the church context? A lot of it's culture. We've lost a lot of us as a society overall. And that, of course, is gonna seep into the congregational context. Again, the, the number one thing I point to his ritual, one of the, one of the interesting, interesting things about the Isma story is that at the very same time that his brother was going through the, the weening ritual, which is what you underwent to kind of solidify your place in the, uh, the family, Ishmael was being cast out of the house. He never underwent any kind of ritual with Abraham. Um, so he was forever, and I put this in the book somewhere. He was forever a boy. He never had some kind of sign that he was maturing either into older, young adult asari or in Samantha, whoever, however you wanna term it. And that's something that he had to, had to, had to have a curve for him in, in the wilderness. And I argue in the book that, that this relationship with God that he established kind of did that for him. So I, I, I don't know that, that that's not available to e e everyone. It would be hard for me to say, you know, God there and, and get saved and get your relationship with God going, and that's gonna heal all your past, uh, identity issues. That's not really, you know, viable. What I do believe we need are some real rituals in place that help young men especially identify their transition from boyhood to manhood. Now, there are negative ways that we, uh, that negative means of doing this, that are available to a lot of young men, especially in inner city. So, gangs, for instance, uh, the gang culture offers rituals that, that oftentimes help to transition young men from boyhood to manhood. Not only gains, but overall in our culture. The military, for instance, is a way for some men, young men, they transition from boyhood to manhood. They've been in the service. They've, they've, they've, they've served their country, they've been in combat, whatever the case is, some kind of, uh, markets, uh, for some men, it wasn't, uh, you know, your first job paying for your, your house back in the<laugh> way back in the day, you know, paying off your car, getting married, having children. All these things are, all those things now are dis are, are stabilized. Uh, the military doesn't hold, uh, the procedure used to hold in. Our culture still does, but not like it used to. Uh, the, the family, as we all know, is in decline for various reasons. People aren't marrying, uh, like they used to. So that's not a place of stability where people could say, well have my wife, my two children at home. That means I'm a man now. Uh, that's gone economically. Uh, the jobs that people used to hold, as I mentioned before, working at the factory, you may be able to do that, but economically is not viable for a lot of people anymore. So that's not a marker of transition to manhood. Uh, what are those things in the church, uh, right now that are available to help young men say, you know, I'm no longer a boy, I'm a man now. Um, I don't know what they are. I don't know what's available. You can't say, everybody can jump into some kind of ministerial position in the church to be say, you know what? I'm a leader of this board. I'm a leader of this ministry. I lead this men's group. Whatever the case is, whatever activity that's not available to everyone. So I think as, as, as, as, uh, the church is struggling with being a place where young people could go to and gain a sense of identity, reestablishing some sense of ritual in congregational context, I think would be very helpful what those rituals would be. Again, it's contextual too. What rituals work and where I live now and congregations are around here, wouldn't work in other places. So it's, it's all different. But I think the, the important, the point is, uh, Lee, is that we have to start asking these questions and be very open to maybe hearing some negative feedback,<laugh> in terms of what's missing and what young people believe is needed. Um, because a lot of it is gonna require the church to stretch its thinking, but also literally stretch, uh, the kind of context that it wants to be engaged with in order to find solutions. But again, I think, like I started the, the, the conversation with today, I think it starts with asking the, the community you're engaged with, what is needed, uh, and also what's missing. I think it's very
Speaker 1:Important. And it's, it's interesting because for, for men, especially male identifying folk in the church, yes. I think that it's easy. Well, not easy, I should back that up.<laugh>. What does it mean to also have, if you say, if you're going to become a man from a boy, yeah.<laugh>, when when do we, when do we reach that spiritual maturity that might also come with that? And the fact of the matter is that because faith is such a journey, we're all yes. On it together. Well, that's, so they're, so we mark some things with rituals, but there is not necessarily, like I have reached Yeah. This maturity in my faith life that indicates I'm a man now. It Yeah. Because faith just doesn't work like that.
Speaker 3:No, no. There. And you know what, uh, there's a, a, a great book by a Paso theologian named James DIDs called Driven by Hope. And for him, he makes the point. I think I do start in, in the book that for men, I would think, you even argue for men of faith, one of the things that we have to maintain is, is this identity of sonship, he calls it. And sonship is marked by this, not yet this idea that you don't, you know, you're not rushing to achieve everything so fast. There's not this constant anxiety that, you know what this manhood thing, I have to get it now. Uh, whether it's through, again, finance, job, marriage, the, the, the, the thirst for power, for instance, having power over other men, forget, having, having power over women and children, uh, this desire to have power over other men as part of this, this, this, uh, search for manhood that we're oftentimes engaged in. And that can manifest itself in different ways, not just physical power, intellectual power, economic power, or the case may be political power. So Jesus says, we have to live in this space of sonship. And what, what does that, what does that look like, uh, the journey that you spoke about, Simon? The not yet. You know, that this, there is no goal. Am I willing to be constantly engaged in the process, uh, knowing that I'm know, knowing that, again, this relationship I have with God, or whatever the case may be, puts me in a position where I know things are gonna be taken care of to a certain extent. I don't have to do this all on my own. And that's part of the faith journey too. You know, I, you know, not, not, not this hyper individualism where I'm in com, complete control of everything. The sociologist Pierre Bordeaux has a great book called, somewhere Here on Masculine Domination is called, he Has a, a line in there that always tries me. He says that men had to be control of everything at all times. Right? You can never relent, right? So how, how do you live a life of faith? We, you're in control of everything all the time. That, that affects your faith walk as well. So what can God do if you're always in control? Right? What can another congregant do for you if you're always in control, if you're a pastor of leadership, and this leads a pastor burnout all the time too, of course, right? I have to do it all the time because this is my thing. You, you can't live a life digs would say of healthy spirituality like that. So there has to be this place where, yes, I do have to wait. Yes, I do have to hope. Yes, I do have to be in a place where God will do this for me or somebody else can provide. Now, there's a reason culturally why a lot of men don't feel they can do that. But if you're talking about marriage of faith, this whole sonship perspective that, that did us, uh, underscores I think is very important. But again, and this is a conversation for another day, it's hard to experience this kind of spiritual sonship if you've never experienced it in your natural life, right? If you have been a, a man who has never lived or never had a healthy relationship with your father, it's very hard to experience this with, with God, right?<laugh>, you can't, you know, if you never have, if you've been, if you felt you've been abandoned or you've never been able to develop what Eric Erickson calls basic trust, which we develop in our, in our infancy. And part of basic trust is not just trusting the father of the mother who's caretaking for you, but being able to trust yourself that I'm worthy to be loved and be cared for and be attentive to, uh, if you don't have that, it's kind of hard to make the leap to the spiritual, uh, sonship that Dennis is talking about, but still, he says it's something that men need to live a healthy spiritual life. This not yet the journey that's ongoing, there is no end. It's always process. And I'm okay with that. Uh, what j Paul Hines is supposed to be 20 years from now, I don't know,<laugh>, right? I have no, no final end. I'm trying to work towards, and I, I don't have to be anxious about that, but I'm enjoying the journey, the small steps I'm taking to being whoever God wants me to be. And I have to be at peace with that. So Simon, I think that's, that's part of the thing. And again, the word use journey is really at, um, there's a journey, but that, that's what it's about. Spiritual journey, not some end, some goal, but the journey itself and Sonship for did his plays a great role in that, you
Speaker 2:Know? Yeah. And, and I know we've mentioned your book a little bit throughout this, but this might be a good time to kind of talk directly about the book, uh, a little bit. And maybe a good thing to start is, I mean, the title kind of says it, but mm-hmm.<affirmative>, what kind of spurred in the creation of this book? And kind of maybe tell us a little bit about the inspiration and maybe a little bit about, of all what people can find in it. Cuz I think that might be helpful.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, I can't do that in the, The larger, I think for me, the essential thing is for young men or men, uh, like myself who spent their younger years or their young adult years in the inner city. Is there anything comparable to that in scripture? Or is, is the ghettos just this new phenomenon that people never lived through before, is completely new and nobody knows how to deal with it? No. The argument I make in the book, the larger argument is that the biblical wilderness, what Isma endured in the biblical story is comparable to, uh, the modern ghetto, the modern in the city. Uh, and some of the life experiences that a lot of African American men are black men in the inner city are having. Now, Ismail went through back then in the wilderness, look, father Fatherless, uh, abandoned single mother was cast into a place where there were no resources. Where while things were, where it was expected that, you know, once you were in there, you kill, you couldn't get out. Uh, and in that state of despair, uh, he had to find something new, right? Right. In that space, knew about himself. Now,<laugh> knew about myself. Who am I gonna be in this space where, where it's just deaf and, and, and nothing's, uh, is available to me, and not just finding something new, but this is a place where you have to grow. This is a place where you have to develop. What is it in that story that can speak to our current context? I, I, I, I do feel the story of Ismail and Hagar and the Wilderness does that. Now, it, it is a challenge because it really does, it really does go a step further in that I'm not just saying that the, the, the relationship with God is enough. You know, you go to church and get baptized and you get saved, and you have a life of faith, and that's the end of the story. No, that relationship is supposed to allow you to do something in your particular context. So the story of Ismael becoming a Bowman, he developed some kind of skill that could help him handle his context. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the negativity of the wilderness. Uh, God gave him a skill that could help him deal with his, with his environment. All right? Not only that, but the skill could help him protect those who were close to'em. Hagar was able to be protected. And also if needed, I think this is the larger point, and this is gonna be controversial, right? Not everyone can get out of the ghetto. Not everyone can get out of the wilder Ishmael, as far as the story, I know he spent a long time in the wilderness. That's where he had to learn to grow and to thrive. And see, I, I believe that, that there is, there is this argument, you know, well, if the Lord blesses me, I can get out of the ghetto. If the Lord blesses me, I can get out outta the inner city. What about changing the conversation? Two, what can we do? How is, how is God operating in our lives where we can change the environment, not get out of it, the actually start to change it one by one, right? Each person about figuring out what is it that I've been given to do in this particular context that can help me change this environment, right? And, and enough of us, if, if, if enough of us did do those kind of things, I think the environment would change slowly but surely. Right? Generation after generation people find out what is my gift for this particular context and how's this gift helped me to change this environment. Uh, that's kind of one of the larger, um, arguments I'm making in the text as well. So I mean, gift grows in the ghetto. I mean, it is really clear. I mean, if we are gifted, how is this gift growing in the ghetto? And ultimately houses get to allow me to change the environment. Um, it's a lot more complex than that of course, but that's kind of the larger argument I'm having in the, in the book.
Speaker 1:Great. Well, thank you so much for being with us today, j Paul, and we'll be sure to have a link to the book and the show notes so that people can check it out. And we hope that they do because it's a great resource and it's filled with a lot of insight, some of which people have been able to get, uh, a little bit of a taste of in our conversation with you today.
Speaker 3:All right. Thank you guys. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:This has been the matter of Faith Podcast, brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program, an unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so at Faith podcast@pcsa.org. We look forward to hearing from you. See you next time.
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