This week we talk about AI and the recent litigation between Queer students and Christian colleges. All that and more on A Matter of Faith!
Question for the Week:
Life can be overwhelming sometimes (especially in the church) and we all have different strategies to calm ourselves down. What are some strategies that you use or have seen people use?
Special Guest:
Rev. Dr. Rebecca Todd Peters, scholar, teacher, reproductive justice advocate
Guest Question:
At the center of conversations around abortion and reproductive rights are the terms "life" and "choice". But isn’t there also an issue of “trust” that is often overlooked. How does faith intersect with trust in this conversation?
Trust Women: A Progressive Christian Argument for Reproductive Justice
SaCRED: Spiritual Alliance of Communities for Reproductive Dignity
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
This week we talk about AI and the recent litigation between Queer students and Christian colleges. All that and more on A Matter of Faith!
Question for the Week:
Life can be overwhelming sometimes (especially in the church) and we all have different strategies to calm ourselves down. What are some strategies that you use or have seen people use?
Special Guest:
Rev. Dr. Rebecca Todd Peters, scholar, teacher, reproductive justice advocate
Guest Question:
At the center of conversations around abortion and reproductive rights are the terms "life" and "choice". But isn’t there also an issue of “trust” that is often overlooked. How does faith intersect with trust in this conversation?
Trust Women: A Progressive Christian Argument for Reproductive Justice
SaCRED: Spiritual Alliance of Communities for Reproductive Dignity
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Hello and welcome to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast. The podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith,
Speaker 2:Whether it be faith in God, faith in others, or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program and Unbound, the interactive journal on Christian Social justice for the Presbyterian Church usa. I am your host, Lee Cato,
Speaker 1:And I'm your host Simon Dune.
Speaker 2:Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.
Speaker 1:Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast. I am joined as always by the Reverend Lee Cato Uhhuh. People don't always remember the reverend in there that you are the ordained one in this co-hosting duo,
Speaker 2:Whatever that means. Yeah, it's, it's not often, you know, you don't say that too often cause
Speaker 1:Right. It means you have, it means you have master Divinity Lee. It's very clear what it means.
Speaker 2:I know. I wish it was something else. Sometimes I wish it was something else more than just reverend, like something a little more magical. Hmm. I don't know what that would be. I mean, I would love to be a wizard, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:Right. Or about that. Or like if you're in the uk you can be knighted and be Sir,
Speaker 2:Sir. Yeah. I don't know. That's was, yeah. Esteem. This was a different title that's a little more magical and mysterious than,
Speaker 1:You mean, like
Speaker 2:Than Rev, but that's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You mean magical like Minister of word and Sacrament?<laugh>.
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah. That's also kind of, I mean minister.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Minister's a little more magical cuz in Harry Potter they were like the minister of magic, the minister of this, you know. Right. All those things. But now people are just gonna think I'm this like heretic<laugh> that's all talking about magic. But there's a little magic in the faith.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And spirituality.
Speaker 1:Why not? So maybe even some Mysticism.
Speaker 2:Mysticism. I really like that. And the desert fathers and mothers and all kinds of things out there. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. Why not? Why not? Well, you know, that makes me wonder if there's some mysticism, or maybe it's just technology mumbo jumbo in one of our first news items. This is not really a recent development in the, in terms of the last week, but it has been something that's been sort of going on over the last month or so. So I'm sure if you've been paying attention to social media, you might have seen these AI generated art. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> pieces. A lot of people like to use them for their Instagram or Facebook profiles where they, they pay, I think it's as most, it's like$6 and you're able to get this AI generated or composited art piece of your likeness. And people are doing this not just for that, but for other types of art and then trying to sell it sometimes. And there's this starting to be generated a controversy, controversy around is this really art or is it just imitation? Because what the AI is doing is it is pulling whatever your search engine term is or whatever description you give it, it is pulling from various images all across the internet. Yeah. And eventually compiling something together that is sort of like an amalgamation or in something that is inspired by all of that. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> in some cases you could put in an exact photo and it might just recreate the exact photo.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If it can find it. So this has again, generated a lot of questions around the distinction between art, random generation, originality, authenticity. And I just think that's kind of interesting. I can't wait until we have an AI generated sermon that sounds exactly like your pastor because there's also the AI voice creators that sound very authentic too, so That's
Speaker 2:True. Yeah. Alright. Ai, just AI church, what does that look like? Yeah. Because honestly that might happen in, in reality and ai. Jesus. I'm pretty sure somebody has done it out there. And if I find it, I'm just gonna put it up on our Instagram. I have done this and I did it to Will too. And it is kind of cool. I kind of like it. And you should do one, Simon. We can put ours on Instagram too. Ooh. Just to show people what it might look like. Cause I already have mine, um, in store storage. I did it several times cuz I wasn't happy the first time. Cuz sometimes it doesn't get it right the first time. Yeah. And the interesting things about these things is that like, you know, they sometimes they go off on like stereotypical maybe themes or stereotypes too. Yeah. So some of these AI things can get a little, like the intersection of like racism could be an interesting topic with these kinds of things. Uh, because there's like this stereotypical features of certain people that then, you know, perpetuate stereotypes even within ai. So it's not perfect whatsoever, but it is something that is just very interesting to about
Speaker 1:It. Right. Well, in some ways, uh, and make the argument that maybe what is generated by the AI is just a reflection of it is a reflection of all of what is available on the internet already. So if 99% of images, of people of certain ethnicities or certain identities are portrayed in certain ways in different media, that's gonna be reflected in whatever that AI generated art piece creates.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And Jesus, yeah. Have we done Jesus? I might have to do Jesus and then see what it looks like. Then we'll put that on Instagram too. So everybody check it out. Also follow our Instagram at a matter of faith podcast Instagram, please. Yep. Anyway. And, and, and other news, uh, this is kind of very religious themed news item. If some people may not know this at all, but, uh, L G B T Q students sued Christian Colleges. They actually sued the Department of Education, filed a class action lawsuit against them alleging that exemptions granted to schools in relation to the anti-discrimination law called Title IX were unconstitutional because the schools received public funding. And so they sued the Department of Education because they all went to these Christian colleges and universities and experienced discrimination at these universities. There is a clause in Title IX though that says this exempts churches because of religious beliefs, because of all those things. And so the, these students sued them because these universities receiving public money and it just doesn't make sense that you get money from the government and yet you wanna discriminate based off your fair quote, religious beliefs. I just think it's a conversation we should all be having in this country. That we are ex we are exempting religious organizations off the base of hating people and discriminating against people because it's their quote, religious beliefs. When how are we defining that as the, as the government, you know what I mean? And how are we defining that as like in our, in our understanding of scripture, that is not something of our faith belief, just as the person next to us may think that that is a part of their faith belief is that it's okay to discriminate against people. It is very interesting that that is something that is so deep in our, our civil law and how like Christian nationalism and all these things are kind of integrated into our law that colleges just think they can do whatever they want to on the basis of religion, which I don't agree with whatsoever. Especially if you're getting money from taxpayers and some of those taxpayers being people. And yeah, I just think it's a very interesting topic that we as a church and, and we as just like a people in this country should have a deep conversation about because the church is tax exempt, don't pay a lot of taxes, which I think are also problematic. Do you,
Speaker 1:Um, well, I don't want to get us in trouble,<laugh><laugh>, but I I would just offer the, the thought that whether it's a church or an academic institution, I do think that there are entities that walk a fine line between business and nonprofit, if that makes sense. Right. And some claim one while really having practices of both. Right. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that, it's just the fact that they try to hide it, if that makes sense. But we're not honest about it. That said, I like it that the church is tax exempt. I think that that's, and it would make sense if there was always a separation of church and state, but we also know that that's not true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, in this specific case, a judge dismissed these, this lawsuit because of this exemption within Title ix. And, and, and so I think it does place the, the question within the church of, you know, what are we, what are we really for? Is this a big enough deal that we, that we allow this to happen and keep some sort of privileges that we do have? Or where is the, you know, where is the line sometimes because I do think that it's important no matter what institution you are. And some people's like, well why do they go to a Christian institution? Listen, some people just don't have a choice. Some people just like go wherever they get the most money. That's what I did. It was a Christian institution. They technically could have discriminated against me because of certain religious beliefs. Luckily they didn't, but they could have. And I think that that is also something that we don't normally talk about. It's like, well, why didn't they do this? Why did they go here? They knew this was gonna happen. Not necessarily, you don't necessarily know when you're going to college that you're gonna come out or you're gonna be a person. You hope people support you, but your university doesn't, you don't necessarily know sometimes. And so I think it's just this weird line that, that we can do whatever we want to because it's a religion thing. But, and at that same time, it's like, can we just have the basic understanding of human dignity? Because I think that's what all fates kind of have in common, and can't we just work from that? But it is just very interesting and it's also Christian centric as well, so that's another thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyway,<laugh> sending prayers for the people out there and, and it is hard to be a person to go to college. Yeah. And coming out and finding support and all those kinds of things. So
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sending love to, to all of you.
Speaker 1:Yep. Yeah. We know it can be very overwhelming regardless of your identity, but particularly if you are a member of the community and other marginalized communities in our world, trying to navigate the education system or any other aspect of life in general. Yeah. Speaking of being overwhelmed,
Speaker 2:<laugh>,
Speaker 1:Our question for today is about just that topic, the question written in reads, life can be overwhelming sometimes, especially in the church, and we all have different strategies to calm ourselves down. What are some strategies that you use or have seen people use? I appreciate this. I'm a big fan of taking a walk.
Speaker 2:Same. And if you know me, you know, I get overwhelmed and, you know, I'm a very emotional person,<laugh>. And, uh, I do, I do have to remember to breathe. And I do have to remember to place things into perspective even though like how you feel is very valid and that's how you're feeling. But also with the mentality of, you know, how is my, how is how are like certain things about myself impacting the way in which I feel this like, like I, I'm a very privileged person. I have senses of safety, I have support and, and I think all those things are helpful, but it also doesn't discount how you feel in the moment. And so I do, I do think it is just kind of taking a breath and really thinking about things and, and I always have to remember to do that. And I also have to walk away sometimes and just kind of like go into, like, that's why I watch a lot of reality TV or that's why I watch a lot of, like, things you don't have to think about. And I think people may like scoff at reality television, but I think it's in those like meaningless things to where we can escape and, and to be away from things. I think those, those things within itself are meaningful because it does get you away from some of the things that you maybe overwhelm from. And it can kind of create a space to kind of think more logically about them and think more clearly about maybe how to deal with some things. And so, yeah, I think just finding any way to kind of clear your mind, which is hard to do. And, and we don't wanna be therapists because I don't, we're, none of us are trained to do that on this show<laugh>. And so always therapy is an option. If it's something that is like very much if being, if feeling overwhelmed is, is kind of a constant something that's something that I would listen to. And therapy would obviously be something that needed to be sought after. But, but I think on those times where we're just overwhelmed with work and we're overwhelmed with just a lot of things that are happening, that's what I do. It's just any way to find space to, to think logically about something and to talk to people was very important. Good friends.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Talk to your friends. I know that sometimes for myself talking is good, sometimes it helps me calm down. Sometimes talking also grabs me up, for lack of a better word. Yeah. You know, sometimes you're just talking so much about something that you've talked yourself into a tizzy, for lack of a better word. Yeah. That's, and sometimes you've
Speaker 2:Experienced that
Speaker 1:<laugh>,<laugh>, and sometimes, sometimes you need to be able to just have enough of wherewithal to say, okay, I'm not actually saying anything that is meaningful. I'm just repeating the same thing over and over and I'm, I've given voice to the thing that is making me overwhelmed. And sometimes that's enough, but sometimes we just sort of keep spinning our wheels and Yeah. Sometimes we just need to be able to say, all right, I said that that's what the thing is, and now I need to go do that breathing thing. Now I need to go go for that walk. Or now I need to talk about something fun.
Speaker 2:Right? Yeah.
Speaker 1:What, whatever that is. Some people might also say read scripture. Sometimes it's reading a book, listening to music, creating or playing music.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Something that e exercises something else in your body. Right. It's always good to kind of like, cuz I think when we're overwhelmed, all of the senses and everything else is concentrated in one spot. So any way you can kind of def like send it all out into different parts of your body may be a good way, if that makes sense. It's kind of distributing out the, the feeling of being overwhelmed to kind of release some kind of tension because there's a lot of tension in there too. Right.
Speaker 1:I would love to make the joke that all you need to do if you're feeling overwhelmed, is to close your eyes maybe, or go for a walk and listen to a matter of faith, a Presby podcast and just listen to Lee and mine's voices and you will be transported into the podcast universe of our conversation where it's just about the question and the guest and our banter and where things are simple. And you'll find comfort in that. But I know that's not true for everyone, and that's a little bit of a shameless promotion.
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah. I feel like we might overwhelm people.<laugh>,
Speaker 1:<laugh>,
Speaker 2:I feel like we might overwhelm people, especially, I mean, we do, we do talk about a lot of like hard topics to talk about. So I think even when we talk about it and when we, I almost sometimes feel overwhelmed even when we're, we're doing interviews or like, some things come up, especially like when every day something is happening in the news and you just don't have any kind of like way to control anything. And I think that's just something that, you know, find ways or like positive ways to make something that you can kind of release that need to be like, oh, I can control this or whatever. But, but yeah, I think it's important to, to listen to yourself and to be honest, to say that you are overwhelmed. I think that's also something important and people will kind of take that in, I think, I think we don't often want to admit when we're overwhelmed too. And sometimes that that can even I, that can even exacerbate the, the problem
Speaker 1:Yeah. Starts with admitting and then you can go from there. I know that you're not alone because if you're overwhelmed about something, other folks probably are too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very true. You know, speaking of something that might be overwhelming that, but we hope that is very impactful in your own life. We're gonna continue our conversation about reproductive justice and topics about abortion with the Reverend Dr. Rebecca Todd Peters this week who is gonna be, we're gonna be interviewing and so we hope you get something out of it. It was a great conversation that we had with toddy. We call our toddy during the, the interview, so if that's very confusing. But we do talk a lot about some topics that may be hard to hear. So this is a little trigger warning, but we think that these conversations and more will come up about reproductive justice in the future. We just want to keep these conversations going because a lot of people have a lot of questions about it as it concerns with fate. And so we hope you enjoy this conversation with toddy.
Speaker 1:Well, joining us today, we have a very special guest joining us is the Reverend Dr. Rebecca Todd Peters, who is also the author of Trust Women, a progressive Christian argument for reproductive justice. Rebecca, thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 3:I'm delighted. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really good to see you again. And we have a question for you from our wonderful listeners out there. And the question reads, at the center of conversations around abortion and reproductive rights are the terms life and choice, but isn't there also an issue of trust that is often overlooked? How does faith intersect with trust in this conversation? So how would you respond to that question?
Speaker 3:Yes, thanks, Lee. Um, so I do think that the issue of trust and particularly trusting women is, is very much overlooked in the conversations around abortion. Um, when I talk about, and what I mean by trust women here is that as Christians, as people of faith who follow and, and, um, think about our faith in the context of, um, the creation stories in Genesis and the, the belief that we as human beings are created in the image of God. And part of what it means to be created in the image of God is that we are moral agents. We make moral decisions. We are res, we are responsible for our lives, we are responsible for the moral decisions that shape the lives that we lead. Um, and we trust men to make decisions. The state trusts men, our laws trust men. And in this instance, in instances that are related to one of the most intimate personal things a person can experience, which is to just state and bear a child to, um, you know, have another being growing in your body and dependent on you for nine months. That is a enormous commitment. And we don't trust women to be able to recognize that they know what's best for their own lives. They know what they're able to handle or manage. Um, we don't trust them to, to recognize and understand the safety and security of their intimate relationships or the responsibilities that they already have for children that they're caring for, or other loved ones that they are responsible for taking care of. So there are just, there are just so many complex issues that go into people's decisions about whether or not to, um, continue a pregnancy. And we don't trust that women are able to navigate and make those decisions. Um, and that's really what we're seeing with these bands that are happening across the country. Um, and, and any sort of measure that is seeking to intervene in, in women's ability to make those decisions for themselves.
Speaker 1:We had a, a conversation that folks can, can check out and we'll have a link in the show notes also on this topic of reproductive rights, uh, with Mart Kaska. And she said something dating, going back to sort of theology that I had never really thought about, which was that, oh, it the sort of not trusting women idea comes from the story of Adam and Eve because oh, you know, Eve allowed herself to be deceived by this snake. And then she deceived Adam, which again, folks Lee and I are male identifying, and I'm just gonna go ahead and say this for, for those that are male identifying in the audience, don't just blame other people for your own decisions too. Um, that's something that we as men and male identifying folks need to, uh, need to own and take responsibility over. But it's so interesting that going back to that story is often used as this basis for not trusting. And I don't, I just think it's interesting that one story, one, one instance suddenly is used to justify a lack of trust for an entire, an entire gender, an entire group of people. And that just doesn't seem right, especially when we think about the number of other stories we read about in the Bible where trust is so essential and is shown. So I was curious what you would have to say to that as we're thinking about that, especially in the context of the more, I guess, modern polarizing debates.
Speaker 3:Yes, Simon. That's a really good point. And, and the story of, um, the creation narratives and genesis, the story both of, uh, the creation of Eve and then also the story of the garden and the quote unquote fall from, from, from grace. Right? These two stories are certainly, um, central to patriarchy and misogyny in the Christian tradition. And I think you're, you've really hit the nail on the head here and this, this bears some, some real serious thought by people who, uh, are interested in Christian tradition and in the Bible. Because what we need to recognize and remember is that what we are talking about here, what you just described, what I imagine Maggie described is a particular interpretation of those narratives that is not the only interpretation of those narratives, right? So there are other ways to interpret the creation stories, um, ways in which we can recognize that God created humankind in God's image, um, inequality and called it good. And that there is a, a recognition of God's affirmation, of humankind as moral agents. There are ways to interpret the story of the garden as actually, so, you know, I mean, if you've studied the Bible at all, you know that these early stories and genesis are called etiologies. These are kinds of stories that help a group of people understand why things are the way they are in the world. So if we think about the story of the fall, you know, it's this, it's this particular kind of narrative that was helping people in the ancient near East, particularly, you know, the Hebrew people understand their origins and understand why life was so hard, right? They knew that childbearing was not only painful, it was dangerous, and many women died in childbirth. Why was that right? How did they understand that theologically? How did they understand that in terms of their relationship with God? And so there's this story that, that, that helps fill that boy. But we are not people of the ancient near East, right? We can reinterpret this story and we can also recognize and look at that story and say, look, Eve saw that the tree, that the fruit of the tree was beautiful and that it was good to eat and that she would have knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil. And quite frankly, as human beings, the knowledge of good and evil, the knowledge of morality is one of the central core pieces of what it means to be human. And so in that sense, you know, Eve, her name means the mother of all living. She's also the mother of morality, right? She is the one who gave us the capacity to know the difference between good and evil, right? So there are ways to reinterpret these texts that can be very affirming and, you know, really beautiful. Um, and, and we need to do that with so many of our texts if we're gonna get away from the patriarchal, misogynist history of interpretation of the Bible.
Speaker 2:And sometimes I have, you know, I have an issue, I don't, I'm not saying I have an issue with this, this question at all, but I do think in sometimes, especially when we are talking about the decisions that are being made specifically with someone's own context, with someone's own experience, and how we put it upon ourselves that we should, that we should trust that person when, and sometimes it's nobody's business<laugh>, um, or it's, oh, it's almost as if even in the, even in the trusting part, we also center ourselves because it's like we have to trust that they are making the right decision, if that makes sense. It's like we are still putting ourselves in the center, whereas why, why is it that we think we have an ego big enough to think that like our trust matters to said person, if that makes sense. Like, well,
Speaker 3:It, it doesn't, and what you're really sort of beginning to hone in on is, is what I call the justification frame that shapes how we think and talk about this issue in the country, right? So trusting women is actually part of that same, you know, part of that same sense that you've just described of, of there's this, there's this veneer in which people feel like they have to have some sort of say in people's decisions, right? And so even the idea that we trust women is a, is a fragment of that justification frame, um, even as I'm trying to flip that frame, right? But the frame itself requires women to justify their decisions to end a pregnancy, right? Everybody has a reason, of course they have a reason. Nobody's doing it on a whim, nobody's doing it casually. But those reasons, just like you pointed out, or really nobody's business, um, but within the justification frame, we have developed a cultural condition in which people have to give not just reasons, but reasons that some other group is going to receive as justifiable is going to mark as acceptable reasons for ending abortions, right? So I call these the prim reasons, the prenatal health, rape, incest, and mother's life, right? Those are the four quote unquote justifiable reasons. But the problem, well there are lots of problems, but one of the main problems with the justification frame is that it starts with the assumption that abortion is morally wrong. There are some people who think that abortion is morally wrong, but there are a lot of people who don't. And you can't start the moral conversation with an assumption that isn't shared by everyone. And yet that is the frame that marks how we think and talk about this issue in our country. Um, and when you do that only, only about a quarter of abortions or prem abortions, that means 75% of the people who are ending pregnancies are stigmatized and marked as murderers and sinful and ready. All of the sort of trophy things that, that people associate, um, negatively with people who are ending pregnancies. And so we, we, we, we, we don't just have to flip that frame, we just have to completely demolish that frame because it is so damaging and such a deep part of the stigma that's shaping the, the conversation around abortion in the country.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that you sort of unpacked the underlying assumption that isn't always stated in these conversations. And I think another assumption as I'm thinking about this with regards to trust is there's also sort of an underlying assumption of trust in, for lack of a better word, society and societal structures that will help provide for the mother, help provide for the child once the child is born, that that child will be able to flourish and have all of its needs met, which we all know is not true as well. Um, so it's almost like in some ways the conversation, it can feel like it's sort of being talked about in this either idealized world or in a vacuum where someone is assuming these services, these structures are in place when in fact they're not perfect or they're not in place at all.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And, and quite frankly, many of the people who are the most vociferously calling for restrictions on abortion care are the same ones who are fighting against any kinds of public policies that support children and pregnant women and families. And so the, the irony there is, is just profound.
Speaker 2:And it's, and it's also kind of, if we're gonna talk about trust, like there's not a lot of trust in the system<laugh> about any kind of, there's not a lot of trust in the system about, as Simon was saying, about the supporting of kids or, or of children anyway in our society when it comes to many people in our own context, when it comes to people of people of color, when it comes to people, when it comes to any kind of marginalized group of people, people that trust is very much lacking. And specifically as it intersects with reproductive rights or reproductive justice or, uh, and abortion, that trust even in receiving those things isn't there because of the inadequacies of it all. And so it's almost like we're putting our, our, the idea of trust on somebody, again, who is making a decision about what is best for their own context and what's best for their own, uh, lives. That that issue of trust and if you can make this decision or why you should make that decision, that energy is put, is misplaced because the trust should be within the system. Like how are we cultivating trust within a system that should be looking after us and putting that energy and to change those systems to make them better. But it is almost like it's intentionally putting everything on the person who is making this decision, even as we are sitting here talking about it, but also in the conversations we've had in the past of that justification model or going back historically, which I really appreciated hearing about because it really wasn't a judgmental thing and antiquity most of the time it wasn't that big of a deal. And now we've just seen how it's just grown to put all the weight on somebody who's already making a decision and saying, we have to trust, or it's a lot to carry even in what seems like good intention, but it's putting more pressure on said person too. Yeah. So, but I also wonder how we do cultivate or we kind of maybe even disrupt the idea of trust, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm interested in disrupting the justification frame because I think it's the justification frame that's really creating the stigma and, and, and really distorting our public conversation because it is, it's a, it's a frame, you know, in the book, I, I document and demonstrate how it comes out of, um, it doesn't come out of, but there are Christian roots to that frame. Um, you know, and the, the, the, the, the idea that, again, going back to, to eve, right? And, and the idea of the sort of telos of women is to bear children, right? That's women's purpose in the world is to bear children. And you can go through the history of the Christian tradition and see theologian after theologian who sort of say that, right? Women's lot in life is their purpose. Our purpose is to bear children, um, to be mothers and wives. And that becomes that, uh, or what, you know, that's just more of that patriarchal history of the Christian tradition that undergirds, right? And that was part of what led to this justification frame, uh, dominating the, the, the way in which we think and talk about this issue. Um, so, so is that telogy of, of sort of women's purpose, but it, but more recently to, to your point about sort of the difference between, um, you know, the contemporary debate and antiquity. There's an obsession with really what I call the invention of mor, of, of fetal personhood, right? Fetal personhood is something that has been invented in the last hundred, 150 years. It, it was not part of theological conversations or discussions prior to, um, the, the late 18 hundreds and, uh, mid to late 18 hundreds. And you know, certainly there was interest in when did insolvement happen, but that was not in any way framed in this, in the way that personhood, this idea of life begins at conception. None of that was dominating our theological conversations. And so when you have sort of these Christian folk, folk eye that, that shape the justification frame and then that frame, um, again, rooted in that assumption that that abortion is wrong, that abortion is murder, you, you, it, it, it, it, it distorts, uh, our capacity to actually have, uh, nuanced conversations about reproduction, about families, about parenting, about pregnancy, right? This is part of what I have learned and what I love about the reproductive justice frame, right? So it, reproductive justice is created in 1994 by this group of 12 black women who, who look at, at the, the, the choice framing and say, look, this isn't working for our communities. It's really focusing on, in a narrow way this obsession and conversation around abortion when that is one incident in a woman's life, right? And then her fertility is 40 years long, and there are all sorts of other things that are going on reproductive in, you know, related to our reproductive lives that are just sidelined because all of the national energy is focused on abortion, all the money, all the politics, all the, the laws, you know, when we should also be thinking about and dealing with the very high maternal mortality rate among black women in this country, right? Which is, which is a, which is a public health nightmare, not to mention just a horrible, horrible tragedy. And we should be focusing on the fact that almost half of, of all pregnancies in the country are unplanned, right? In a, in a country like this, why don't more people have access to contraception and birth control? Why don't we have better forms of contraception and birth control? We have basically the same forms that we've had for the past 50 years and the, the advances that we've made in, in medicine and in healthcare in the last 50 years. You know, if men could get pregnant, there would be better options for contraception. There just would be, you know, I, I'm, I'm doing a, a research project right now called the Abortion and Religion Project, where we're interviewing, um, Jewish, Christian, Muslim women having abortions right now across the country. And, you know, so many of them talk about how they can't use the methods of birth control that they've tried because they, they just don't work for their, their systems and their bodies. They make them sick, or they did use contraception and it failed, right? The failure rates are, unless you're using, you know, long-acting reversible contraception, like an I u D, the failure rates go up over 10 years. So if you go to a clinic and they say, here, use this, it's about a 12% failure rate that goes up like 30 or 40% if you're using it over 10 years. So again, over a 40, 40 year cycle of fertility, it's not surprising that there's so many unplanned pregnancies. But back to, you know, back to your original point, I would say, I, I really do think it's, it, it, the root of this is the narrowness of the way that the justification frame really controls the debate. Um, and it focuses on abortion and it sidelines all these other issues, uh, as well as, as well as just stigmatizing, uh, the abortion question.
Speaker 1:So as, as people of faith, how would you advise we, or people I should say, our listeners, if they feel so moved to try to dis actually disrupt that framework? Is it, is it entirely legislative or is it really about conversation and discussion to reframe it on a more individual level and then that grows from there? What, how, what would your recommendation be?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a fantastic question, and it's really both, because if we think about how that justification frame came to shape the conversation, we can see that it was the work of the evangelical religious right, and the, the pro-life movement over the last 40 years, right? This didn't happen overnight. This was it, you know, billboards and bumper stickers and, and, and protesters and, you know, just death by a thousand cuts, right? I mean, it's just everywhere permeating the culture so that you have very, very strong pro-life theological voice in the public sphere. Um, you also have a very strong Catholic pro-life voice, even though the majority of Catholics, 54% of Catholics want abortion to remain legal. Um, and that was before Dobbs. I'm sure that's increased since Dobbs. But while you have all the mainline Christian denominations on the record publicly supporting legal access to abortion, you do not have mainline Christian pastors or Christian people talking about abortion with their friends, with their neighbors, with their children, with their families, um, in their churches, right? We have to break the silence and we have to break the silence as Christians. So I talk about how we have sort of this sense in our country, this is, again, part of this, part of the justification frame that all the pro-choice people are secular and all the pro-life, all the Christians are pro-life, right? It, it, it, it just, there's no space for progressive Christians who have a different theological understanding or a different moral understanding about abortion. And that's partly our own fault, partly because we haven't been speaking out and talking about this issue. Um, I think people feel uncomfortable talking about religious, people feel uncomfortable talking about sexuality. And I, you know, think that that's part of what we need to break through and get more comfortable doing, is simply just talking about, it's a big part of our lives. It's a big part of, um, most of our lives and, and we should be able to talk about it more frankly and openly just sexuality in general, right? And, you know, much less abortion. Um, and, and when we do that, then I think we begin to break open that conversation and we, we, we create new ways of thinking and talking together as people of faith about our sexuality and about pregnancy and decision making, about pregnancies and decision making, about our children and our families that, that we have. And so that takes practice. That's not easy. Every time I speak in a church, you know, across the country, like the first question I get is, how do I talk about this with my neighbor or my uncle or my, you know, sibling, you know, and read my book? And there are lots of ways that you can talk about things in the book with your family and your neighbor, but, but you also just have to practice. It takes time and it takes courage to be able to talk about these issues, um, and to be able to talk about them from a faith perspective. So, you know, don't say things like, I am pro-choice, but I would never have an abortion, right? That's a backhanded, um, way of supporting, um, abortion. Um, it's, it's a way of saying it's, it's stigmatizing, right? It's saying there's something wrong with it if I wouldn't have one. Um, and it's also, frankly saying you don't really understand the reality of the people who are making that decision, because nobody, nobody puts that on their bucket list. Oh yeah, I think one day I'd like to have an abortion, right? This is something that happens in people's lives that is unexpected. Um, that's the definition of, of, of situations like this. And so, you know, I think that ways in which we are more careful about our language like that, right? Not saying things like that, um, but also then being able to flip so that we don't think about abortion as tragedy for some people. In some circumstances, abortion is tragedy, but that's not everybody's experience. Um, and that actually is much more closely aligned with those prem circumstances. When you have a situation where you have a wanted pregnancy or a desired pregnancy, and you have a, a healthcare issue for the, the mother or healthcare issue, a problem with the fetal diagnosis, right? Those can be tragedies, rape, incest, clearly tragedies. But for what Katie Watson, legal scholar, Katie Watson calls the 75% of ordinary abortions, those aren't necessarily tragedies. And for the women that I have interviewed, it hasn't been a tragedy for any of them. And I've interviewed, I don't know, 60 or more now. And for them, you know, I think part of what we need to do is reframe what it is, right? So in some situations, abortion is a blessing, right? It allows you to take care of the children that you already have. If you don't have the, the, the, the, the emotional or psychological or financial or whatever resources you need. Abortion can be an act of love if you are, you know, doing it in a circumstance where you're saving your own life. It can be, you know, all sorts of ways that we can reframe and think about it in ways that are positive and recognizing that this is an act that is actually a, a generative act in the life of the person. Um, and, and the only reason it's not seen that way is if you start with that premise that a fertilized egg is exactly the same thing as a born baby. You know, if you don't have that premise, then, you know, you can have all sorts of different ways of imagining and thinking about, um, the morality of abortion.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And this is very helpful because we, me and Simon, and, and whenever guests come on, we always talk about the, the way in which, you know, right wing evangelical, conservative media has played a huge role in the ways in which we view morality and faith in our country and in and globally. I do think now there is a, there is a new wave of right wing evangelism going on when it comes to YouTube and streaming and all these other things, and we always have conversations. It always kind of comes up when we do this podcast because it has made a huge difference. And in some ways, we always challenge progressive Christians to think how to innovate and to kind of take that energy that a lot of right wing media has used and kind of learn from it in a weird way to, to see in which how we build an infrastructure to change narratives. And that's one of the reasons why we wanted to do this podcast is the religious podcast. There are many progressive ones, but the loudest voices are the conservative ones. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And I do think the more ways in which we can have conversations like this broadly, but also inviting people locally to have the conversations. But it is hard. But I also know from my experience with my family, I'm from rural South Carolina of a town of 800 people. I know several people that this is very close to, and I know several people that they, that it's been very dangerous for them. And it happens everywhere. It is a conversation that is connected everywhere. And I hope people realize that, uh, no matter how small of a town you come from, it's there and people are struggling and wanting to have conversations openly. And where else could it be other than a space of trust that a church is supposed to be. So I am grateful for that,
Speaker 3:Lee. I would, I think it's an important point now to, to also just remind people that a quarter of women will have an abortion by the time they're 45, right? This is a normal part of women's experience, so just like you said.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So if you're listening out there, it happens<laugh>, it happens where you are. And we invite each of you to, to have those conversations, and we will make sure that, uh, Todd's book link is in our show notes. It's, again, it is Trust Women, a Progressive Christian argument for reproductive justice. And again, to the reverend, Dr. Rebecca Todd Peters, thank you for Thank you for this, for being with us.
Speaker 3:So before we end, I just wanna, I just wanna let your listeners know that, um, there is a movement of Christians and Jews and Unitarians, um, and other religious people out there, um, organizing sacred congregations and sacred stands for the Spiritual Alliance of Communities supporting Reproductive Dignity. Um, and there we wrote a seven week curriculum, and you can study it together in your, uh, congregation. Um, it actually helps you have these conversations about sexuality and about reproductive justice, and it's a really good place, um, for you to be able to start talking about this issue, um, in your local community with a lot of support. Um, and you can find that@sacreddignity.org. So I, I think it's just a really helpful resource because this cultural conversation is only gonna be changed one congregation at a time across the country, um, as people begin to think and talk and, and speak out about this issue.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll be sure to put that link in the show notes as well. And once again, toddie, thanks so much for being with us.
Speaker 3:Great, thanks.
Speaker 2:Thanks everyone for listening to this week's episode of a Matter of Fate, a Presby podcast. Thanks to Toddy for being with us this week and to talk about reproductive justice with us. We really appreciate it, and we hope you all check out the links in the show notes. We also want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and to leave us a review. We would really love that. And check out our website, a matter of fate podcast.com. Also, if you have a question for us, send them the Fate podcast@peaceusa.org, and we will talk to you again next week.