This week we welcome a surprise guest and a special guest (though they are both special)! This week the Rev. Brooke Scott joins us to help us respond to our question of the week! Brooke is a minister, social worker and the host of her own podcast, The Divine Audacity Podcast.
Question for the Week:
There has been a lot of talk and comments about Rihanna's Super Bowl halftime show performance. Specifically, her pregnancy and comparing her to other performers. I notice this happens a lot in churches as well. If she were a pastor leading worship would reactions be any different?
Special Guest:
David W. Peters, Author of Post-Traumatic Jesus
Guest Question:
We often forget the trauma that Jesus experienced throughout his life and the trauma of the context of the world he lived in, instead choosing to focus on his love, miracles and the “happier” parts of his story. How are we to understand this trauma, both personal and more generalized as modern Christians?
Post-Traumatic Jesus
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
This week we welcome a surprise guest and a special guest (though they are both special)! This week the Rev. Brooke Scott joins us to help us respond to our question of the week! Brooke is a minister, social worker and the host of her own podcast, The Divine Audacity Podcast.
Question for the Week:
There has been a lot of talk and comments about Rihanna's Super Bowl halftime show performance. Specifically, her pregnancy and comparing her to other performers. I notice this happens a lot in churches as well. If she were a pastor leading worship would reactions be any different?
Special Guest:
David W. Peters, Author of Post-Traumatic Jesus
Guest Question:
We often forget the trauma that Jesus experienced throughout his life and the trauma of the context of the world he lived in, instead choosing to focus on his love, miracles and the “happier” parts of his story. How are we to understand this trauma, both personal and more generalized as modern Christians?
Post-Traumatic Jesus
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Before we begin our episode, we want to let you know that this episode contains language about sexual abuse, violence, and trauma. So we hope that you take care of yourself if that is something that is triggering to you. And we also want you to know that we are with you and we love you. Well, hello everyone, and welcome to a matter of Fate, a Presby podcast where we respond to your question and comments about issues of fate, social justice, and church life. This is the podcast.
Speaker 2:Yep. This is the<laugh>. Yes, you are correct, Lee. This is the podcast where we are always seeking your questions on faith, justice, and church life. Because if it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might what Lee
Speaker 1:Be a matter of faith, y'all. And yeah, welcome to the podcast. It is good to see you, Simon. It's been a, it's been a, it's been a week. It has been a week.
Speaker 2:It has been a week. Lee. I did something for the first time. I don't know if I should be sharing this on air, but I am. I just did something for the very first time. Do you know what I did? What? I drove through a drive-through for the first
Speaker 1:Time. The first time in your whole life.
Speaker 2:I mean, not, I've never been through one before, but I was the driver
Speaker 1:<laugh>. Oh, that is. Wow.
Speaker 2:Because I got my license a little later in life, and then I was either abroad or I was in a city where I didn't have a car. And so one thing led to another. And, uh, yeah. So Taco Bell, thank you for giving me my very first drive-through experience. And I learned that you need to pull a little closer to that window than you think you do.
Speaker 1:Of course. Yeah. And we are not sponsored by Taco Bell. We have to say that. Um, yes. And if we were, I think that would be awesome. But that's, congratulations.
Speaker 2:Pull up. I know. I feel I'm a big boy now. I'm, I'm
Speaker 1:A big kid that experience a kid. I'm adulting a
Speaker 2:Kid now. Yep.
Speaker 1:What commercial was that? I'm a big kid now. Do you remember that?
Speaker 2:Yes. Oh my gosh. Pullups
Speaker 1:<laugh>. Pullups. Pullups. You know, pullups. Like I'm a big kid now and it wasn't it pullups. Well, I thought it, we have to get our research.
Speaker 2:I thought that was PBS kids.
Speaker 1:I don't know, but I think it's pullups. We'll, we'll we'll figure it out. I'll, I'll look at it as, as the episode goes on, but we'll, we'll get our research in. But, but a lot of things, um, of course if happened this week, happy Valentine's Day. Everybody that was this week. Know that you are loved. Love yourself. Sometimes Valentine's Day gets on my nerves, but we all about love though. Sometimes it's too commercialized, I think. But that happened. Happy Valentine's Day everybody.
Speaker 2:Yep. Happy Valentine's Day. And not only did that happen, there's been a lot of other things happening in the news. Um, we did wanna note just that our thoughts and prayers. It feels like I'm, we're saying that a lot lately. We did. We say a lot. Yep. Go out to victims and families in Michigan after the shooting there. Um, again, also prayers for our leaders to implement responsible gun violence prevention policies. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and practices.
Speaker 1:Yes, indeed. Do something. That's what we really want. And speaking of things that were done, I'm not really good at segues not like you are, uh, but the Super Bowl happened this past Sunday and the Chiefs won, right? Is that correct? Because here's the statistic we're gonna talk about a little bit, but more people actually watched Rihanna, I think it was by like 6 million than actually watched the Super Bowl. How fascinating is that? And I was one of those 6 million. I turned it on, turned it right back off. So,
Speaker 2:Oh, I watched the whole game. I mean, it was a good game, I will say. And the Super Bowl halftime performance also amazing. The commercials this year. I don't know, I didn't love'em. There were a couple pretty funny ones, but you know how it used to always be this big thing where you would get these, um, like every commercial was a, for lack of a better word, very well thought out, very creative. I just didn't get that vibe quite as much this time. That's okay.
Speaker 1:Because they're too expensive. It was like 70 million to get an ad or something wild like that. So yeah. I'm not gonna Interesting
Speaker 2:Anymore, I don't think. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting that, um, the, the one Christian ad that appeared during the Super Bowl was the He Gets Us.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That was a very interesting that that made it in there of all things. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And y'all just, so if you didn't know that is bankrolled by some very problematic people and just do the research. Just Google it. It looked cool maybe, but I think, I think in many ways it's interesting and just go Google it.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean, I honestly, the fact that it was able to be aired during the Super Bowl and how much it, like you were saying it costs to actually get an ad during the Super Bowl. I was like, okay, Jesus gets us. It also sounds like Jesus has got a lot of money cuz he got this. Yeah. Cause this ad is being played on
Speaker 1:<laugh> Super Bowl.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:Yeah. Jesus, Jesus had a lot of money that we could have done something else with. So,
Speaker 2:But, but you know who did not get any money.
Speaker 1:That's, that's true.
Speaker 2:Rihanna got no money because that's how this thing works. When you perform for the Super Bowl, you aren't paid.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Because it's exposure and because you're usually already big, which is an interesting, that's an interesting conversation on its own. But speaking of Rihanna's Super Bowl performance, we are so grateful to have an additional guest with us for this surprise everyone opening segment<laugh> of a matter of Faith a Presby podcast. Joining us is the Reverend Brooke. Scott. Brooke, thanks so much for being with us.
Speaker 3:Hello Simon and Lee, I'm so excited to be back.
Speaker 1:<laugh>. Hey, Brooke. It's really good to see you. And if you didn't know, Brooke also has her own podcast called The Divine Audacity Podcast. Y'all should all go check it out. Yes, it is an amazing podcast and we wanted to give you a shout out for that. So y'all go check it out, so anywhere you can get your podcast. But welcome to the podcast again. It's good to see you.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Good to see you both. I'm so excited.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We're, I'm hoping that you can help us think through a little bit about some of the, I don't know if I know if I would even call it backlash, but just like comments about Rihanna's Super Bowl halftime show. And so we have a question written in which reads, there has been a lot of talk and comments about Rihanna's Super Bowl halftime show performance, specifically her pregnancy and comparing her to other performers. I noticed this happens a lot in churches as well. If she were a pastor leading worship, would reactions be any different? Wow.
Speaker 3:Wow. Well, when I got this question, I definitely was like, that is heavy hitting. I feel like there are a lot of layers to this, but likely I only watch Rihanna<laugh> in the Super Bowl and it was 13 minutes of just complete goodness. And I really, really, really enjoyed it. I will say though, that I was quite surprised by it, like a lot of people who are commenting, you know, what I know of Rihanna is that she is very over the top. She's very high energy. Um, and this was not that type of performance. So I will say that like I was surprised and it wasn't what I expected. However,<laugh>, I thought it was great. I thought it was amazing. I thought she did a really good job. She looked great. She just had a baby and then also had this pregnancy reveal during the halftime show. And so that was incredibly amazing. I found myself like not even really needing to like, have a whole lot going on just to be able to like go down memory lane and just hear all these hits that like, I've come to know, like at different points in my life. So that was so exciting. But unfortunately I was really disappointed by a lot of the feedback around just her pregnancy. I heard a lot of people saying, you know, well when Beyonce was pregnant, you know, she did a lot more and you know, she did a lot more with her choreography and she had higher energy and comparing her to other stars we love who we're also pregnant and you know, people just saying, well, I know that she's pregnant again, obviously, but that's not an excuse for like, you know, having a bad performance, people calling it a bad performance. Hmm. And yeah, I just think that there's a lot of misogyny wrapped up in that that like is true not just of pop stars, but also is true of women in ministry and is true of a lot of people that we look to as leaders and influencers. And we just have a lot of high expectations for them. And if you're a black woman, there's even higher expectations. So yeah, I've definitely picked up on that a lot.
Speaker 1:And just going through a lot of the comments too, like you just search through any find things that people may say, and there was also a lot of comparisons. Like even people were talking about Madonna and what Madonna did mm-hmm.<affirmative> and then, I mean, and you mentioned Beyonce, but, but there's also this layer of, you know, someone is doing something for basically free
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Uh, and is, and is doing something in a way that is basically doing the Super Bowl of favor<laugh> mm-hmm.<affirmative> and, and then having these expectations and kind of the, the mindset of what being entertained means. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And I saw a lot of things about, I think it was, uh, it was Octavia Butler quote that was going around about Rihanna. You know, basically saying like, we, that specifically black women have these high expectations, but it's also, you know, displaying the fact that I'm doing what I need to do in this moment. Yeah. And, and this is how I think we should be, you know, this is how I want people to see me as like not giving into these, these tropes or like these, these expectations that people have on, on me. And it just seemed like that was done in kind of an intentional way too. Yeah. Not saying, of course singing for a pregnant person is hard. Yeah. It is one of the hardest things a singer can do, but she levitated hundreds of feet in the air on wires. Yes. Eight wires. I counted eight, eight wires.<laugh>. And why would you think, like, you know,
Speaker 3:Seriously? Yeah. Yeah. It really just like being a black woman myself. Like, and I was raised around a lot of black women. I mean, I have a really good relationship with my dad. He was around too, and like, I love him. But like all the black women who have influenced in my life were all people who, like, I watched the world put so much on them, whether it was their family, their jobs, um, whatever, like skills they did, their communities, their churches, they were working behind the scenes in all of those ways. And the world just crushed them in a lot of ways. The world took so much out of them and gave them back so little in return. And so there's something that's so radical to me about what Rihanna did in a different way where it's just kind of like, you know, part of it was also kind of how she is. Like, I remember feeling surprised being like, oh, I'm used to her being a little bit more high energy. But then I was like, but wait, who am I talking about? Like, Rihanna is also the type of artist who does not care what people think of her<laugh>. She is very much like in whatever way going against the grain. She has an air about her that's very nonchalant, very chill, just kind of like, I know that this is what you expected, but this is just who I am. And so for me, her performance was also radical in a different way where it was just kind of like, I am enough. I am already who I am. I am already a household name. I've dipped into all these different endeavors, my fashion, my my sense, my lingerie, like whatever. I've done all of these things and I've already built myself up to billionaire status and I'm just here. I could just stand here and sing and it's going to make an impact and it's gonna bring in views and I, without me even having to do all that much. And I thought that that was really, really powerful in just, even in the theological way of just like enoughness, just by existing, there is already something really special and divine about that. Um, and it doesn't need to have a lot of accolades, doesn't need to have a lot of theatrics. It just, I'm here
Speaker 2:<laugh> mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Right.
Speaker 3:That was cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And, and as you both were saying it, it's almost like as an audience member, we sometimes get this feeling of entitlement to what degree Yeah. Of spectacle or entertainment someone should be providing us, or now maybe we don't, we don't expect to receive it, but we just expect that they're gonna do it even if it's not what we ourselves are looking for. Yeah. Um, I was talking with someone who is granted a, like a generation older than I am, so there's a bit of a generation gap, but someone that they were saying was, oh, you know, I didn't know should my, I didn't know if my granddaughter should watch this halftime show because our clothes gonna come off. When are they gonna come off? And just the assumption that that is what will make a Super Bowl halftime show interesting or exciting. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And, and, and they also reference, you know, the incident with Janet Jackson a number of years back, which also involved a black woman. And I'm like, no, actually the issue is with what our expectations are for these things. Yeah. It's not on the person themselves. And similarly, we need to also recognize that people handle things like pregnancy differently depending on where they are in the lifespan and the growth of, of the, you know, of, of this coming child, their own health. There's so many things that we don't know<laugh>.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. That was also frustrating to me. I mean, there's already a misogyny when it comes to comparing different women artists to each other, but there's also just this inability to under, there's also like, sorry, an ableism attached to it as well, where it's just kind of like, you know, being pregnant is very, very vulnerable. It can be very, very dangerous<laugh> and it doesn't affect everyone's body the same. And so like, it's also really, really dehumanizing the way that folks have been talking about pregnancy and what kinds of things we expect pregnant people to be able to do. I mean, in my opinion, like I've never been pregnant, but I'm always just like, I don't expect pregnant people to do anything. Like if they never do a thing, I feel like it's just fine<laugh>. You know, like, and it's just weird how like, that's my inclination. And all of these people are like, oh, it needs to be this, it needs to like, reach this certain level of expectation without even recognizing, like, you could be asking someone to do something that's very dangerous by themselves and their child. Yeah. Um, so it, it just, it it made me, it was kind of heavy for me to think about that actually, and like doing that to a black woman as well. And, you know, all that that means historically to just see somebody as an object of entertainment and an object for us to spectate at and gawk at without any consideration of what that might actually do to her body for her to do what we're asking.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, levitating that, I mean, it's like, what else do y'all want? I mean, and a on a piece of glass, like<laugh>, it
Speaker 3:Was like, yeah, what
Speaker 1:Did y'all expect? She was up there? And like that was something that, that hit me. And then also reading afterwards, so Rihanna and Andre Leon Talley were from Vogue was, uh, the first African American male creative director of Vogue. The, the red coat that she wore at the end and put on was a ho homage to him. And like little things like that that people I think, who were so focused on the production and the, the expectation and the entertainment, it's like there were things within that, there was symbolism within a lot of things. And there was also these, uh, these like homages to not only Rihanna's like accomplishments, but the people who, you know, she really loved and the people that she had relationships with. And I think that, like, we miss all that when we all of a sudden take something and don't go deeper into it, and like mm-hmm.<affirmative>, There were deeper meanings in it that I don't think a lot of other performances at the Super Bowl had. And I think that's something else that I appreciated about her. And I appreciated about a lot of other leaders, specifically in faith communities to where, you know, things aren't necessarily productions in a sense, but there are those nuances and those meaningful things that are there. But it also, it takes you going deeper into things and to asking questions. And so that's one of the things that I also appreciated Yeah. About her is that homage, because he was somebody that revolutionized fashion mm-hmm.<affirmative> more than anybody would ever think, and was just a sh like an advocate for so many different things. So that was really Yeah. Cool too.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it does make me think, I mean, I know at least part of the question was about pastors too, and I, I think like, yeah, it just makes me think about women in ministry, but also just the pastoral role in general. Like, there's so many questions now I think of like what worship is supposed to be and what church is supposed to be. And there's, there's been these questions of like, you know, is worship a performance? How do we know it's a performance? Like, what does it look like? And, and even this ownership that parishioners sometimes feel over their pastors and the way that they sometimes don't appreciate the humanity that their pastors have is like, these are people, like when we put them on a pedestal and we expect them to not be affected by things, not have ex have emotions or express their emotions, not have real limitations like disability, whether it's a long-term disability or a short-term disability, like something like pregnancy. Like, we expect them to perform at these ridiculous levels, and we expect them to be there for us at our every need in our every moment, um, without recognizing that they're people. And I think it's also just a reminder that when we put people on pedestals, like it dehumanizes them, whether they are ministers or performers.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you said that because as we've been talking, I've been thinking back to a previous podcast conversation that we had, uh, regarding maternity leave. Yeah. And that's a, that's a kind of a big thing. And, uh, something that a lot of Presbyterians within the Presbyterian church U s USA are, are talking about, about extending maternity leave. And there's a lot of questions and sort of feelings about this. For example, if we're thinking about the comparison of Rihanna being pregnant and comparing her to other performers that also performed pregnant and what different people were capable of doing, and the, I guess the, the value they were able to<laugh> to give to their fans in those performances. Yeah. It's a dangerous slope because if a congregation is, uh, has a, uh, a pastor who is, uh, who becomes pregnant and then go, for example, goes on maternity leave, some folks may come back after six weeks because they feel confident and they are ready to come back, and that's what they wanna do. Yeah. Some folks don't wanna come back for three months and that is totally, yeah. And that should be okay too. And similarly, some folks are gonna be able to, like you said, Brooke perform at fairly high levels for most of the time that they're pregnant, but others will not. Yeah. And that is okay too. It is not a comparison game. It is not a, oh, well, so-and-so could do this, why can't you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think that's, yeah, a really good connection to the conversations right now about family leave For sure. And I think it just, for me, it comes back to like the ownership that we feel over other people and specifically over other people's bodies. And I think that that shows up in the congregational space in a very real way. Like how our pastors use their time, how they take breaks. I mean, a lot of, like, I do not have this problem, which I am grateful for, but like a lot of my colleagues have to still explain to parishioners why they take a Sabbath day. Like the level of entitlement and ownership we feel over people and their time and their bodies and how they perform, I think is something that's just across the board. And the way that struggle with it, I feel like is reflective of the same thing that we're seeing in the Super Bowl. It's just like, I won it, I won it, now I need it. I turn this on to see a certain thing, and so that's what I should be getting. And there's not really much of a consideration. And I'll also say like, Rihanna's a billionaire,<laugh>, like, yes. So like, even like, so like, let's talk about that. Like a billion dollars is like unimaginable. So I'm not trying to like compare her to like Right. Most of the women that I know or have met. But it is just like, it does just give us a glimpse into like people that we admire and our expectations of them. But I am almost a hundred percent sure that anything that she needs, you could get at any point, um,<laugh>. But I, but even, even given that I appreciate, even in the face of having access to so much, she still took such a stand to be, you know, as simple as possible, which I think really is a statement.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, Brooke, we're so glad that you were with us today. And yeah, it's like a little surprise for everybody. Yes. And I'm really glad you, you came on with us. But again, the Reverend Brook Scott also minister, I mean, what else can we say? Icon Legend<laugh>. We can say podcast host of the Divine Esti podcast. Y'all go check it out. Yes. But thank you for being here and thinking through the question with
Speaker 3:Us. Thanks y'all. I really appreciated the question. Thanks for letting me come back. I know I'm a mess, but it was great<laugh> and I'm a huge fan of the podcast. This was my number one listen of 2022. So I've listened to, I've listened to all of them, I've bookmarked some that are helpful to my ministry, and I'm just grateful for what y'all are putting in the world. So thank you. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thank you for being with us. And our special guest this week is David W. Peters, who is the author of Post-Traumatic Jesus, and responding to a question about post-traumatic stress and how we as people of fate kind of can connect with that through our tradition and how we're called to, to be in solidarity with those who are going through that experience. So that's our special guest this week. So we hope you get something out of the episode. Well, joining us today on the podcast is a very special guest. We have David W. Peters, who is the author of Post-Traumatic Jesus here with us on the podcast. David, welcome. We're glad to have you.
Speaker 4:It's good to be here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We're really glad to have you, David, because we had a conversation just before Christmas talking a little bit about trauma and the ways that we understand it and how we also can give ourselves and each other grace within trauma. And also applied it a bit to the Christmas story, because that was just before the holidays. And I'm glad that we're able to return to this topic with you, with a question that we have written in. So the question reads, we often forget the trauma that Jesus experienced throughout his life and the trauma of the context of the world he lived in, instead choosing to focus on his love miracles and the happier parts of his story. How are we to understand this trauma, both personal and more generalized as modern Christians? What do you have to say to that? David?
Speaker 4:It's a really good question. It's a question I think a lot of people are asking when they, um, look at their own stories that are full of trauma. And I think we have a greater awareness of trauma in our, in our current context, maybe because of some of the, the war related trauma that, um, usually gets highlighted, uh, upfront as sort of an acceptable kind of trauma. Um, certainly veterans get a lot of healthcare resources for their traumatic experiences and P T S D post-traumatic stress disorder that a lot of the population hasn't gotten in America. But that sort of did, that sort of opened a door for, uh, more discussions of trauma, especially sexual assault, sexual trauma, and, uh, in the military context, military sexual assault. But, um, all of that awareness of trauma, I think, um, has led some people maybe to believe that, that the Christian Church doesn't have much to say about traumatic events and how to live after trauma or post-trauma or post in a post-traumatic way when, um, in fact the holy scriptures and especially the life of Jesus, is full of references to traumatic events both in Jesus' life and in the world around him. Jesus grew up in a, in a world that had as much violence as our world has and maybe more in many aspects. And early Christians ex embodied that trauma. They, and I, you know, I always for, I have to say that the word trauma is just the Greek word for wound. Uh, it's, it's a word that's used in the Bible occasionally. There are other wound words for wound in the Greek language, and of course in Hebrew. But yeah, in the New Testament does, the word does show up. And it's, it's a, it's a word that speaks to both trauma, traumatic, uh, wounds or wounds that you can see and wounds that you can't see. And we make a very clear distinction between physical wounds and emotional wounds or mental wounds, when in reality they often have huge overlaps. And certainly in the life of Jesus and the New Testament and the community that remembered his stories and then were suffering their own traumas, uh, and recovering from them, uh, certainly put that in the story. And yet, usually our first encounter with Jesus is as children hearing the stories of his love and miracles. For me as a kid growing up in church, I was always drawn to stories in the Old Testament, in the Hebrew Bible that were a little more action oriented with battles and armies and sort of that heroic tradition there, which have a lot of trauma in them, a lot of, and a lot of post-traumatic, uh, suffering in them. But there was one story about Jesus that always grabbed me, and that was the crucifixion. Cause that moment in his life really connected with all that other trauma that I had. I was sort of drawn to or interested in, how did people survive that? How did they get through that? And the crucifixion certainly is the overshadowing, uh, moment in all the gospels. So, you know, the writers of the gospels are, they're aware of the crucifixion in a really profound way. How it, the meaning that, that it, it means for them. So when they look at Jesus, the stories of Jesus life leading up to the crucifixion, they are thinking about that event and making connections to that event in very obvious ways and some very less obvious ways. I think, uh, Jesus, um, his birth is a, a very traumatic event, not just for his mother Mary, who birth is a traumatic event in many ways, but all the, the political events surrounding his birth. Herod, of course, who is a, a character in his own right in history. Josephus, one of the one things I enjoy about, uh, Josephus writings about her, and I put it in the book, is that he, he dyed his hair to look younger. And I think that we can relate to that<laugh> in that modern context of a, of a egotistical, diabolical, you know, you name the label that we put on leaders that are like him obsessed with their own power, insecure, petty, and violent. He is a, the overshadowing character of that, uh, birth narrative. And it's, it's his violence that drives Jesus and his family to Egypt for safety. And, and yet that's, that's, you know, we leave that out sometimes in the Christmas story. I certainly do on Christmas Eve. I don't always bring in that part of it, and maybe rightfully so, but, but these, this, the, the New Testament and especially the gospels, are written for a traumatized world to help people process their trauma in a Christian way. And so I felt like my own experiences with trauma, which are mostly war related trauma and the Iraq War, knowing that I see the world through a post-traumatic lens now, and maybe reading scripture through that lens and sharing it in this book, uh, would be a way to help Christians understand themselves and also understand Jesus in a new way. Cuz Jesus introduces himself with his wounds, his his trauma. He holds that out to us, and he's still holding that out to, to people that are traumatized today.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it's often, I know in a, a lot of conversations that we have in quote progressive circles in that a lot of times we are, a lot of times we do cr critique the military complex. And a lot of times those conversations also do not include people who are veterans and people who have experienced a lot of trauma through the military as well, which is what I appreciate about this book in which it does, it does bring it from a different perspective. And it brings it from a way, it brings it into perspective that, you know, there are experiences within some systems that you may or may not agree with. And I think that that is, that is something that we can all kind of have conversations about, but that people are impacted within these systems and that there is something that here in this book and speak to that specific experience. But I wonder if you can, like, if we can hone in on that kind of, that military experience specifically for veterans, how have you seen, or how have you heard or experienced how maybe veterans or people who have experienced this, this type of post-traumatic stress in their lives, how have you seen them view the, view the stories of Jesus or view the narratives of Christ in the ways that may be obvious, but may not so much so? Cause I know you mentioned that I would, I think it would be nice to kind of hear how you, how you've seen or experienced that.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Um, I, I think our whole world is traumatized by war, uh, Ukraine obviously currently happening, but the, um, the war on terror that started when I was a very young man, right at, I was in seminary in nine 11 and, you know, the rest of my life was kind of scripted by that event. But whether, uh, people have served in the military, in the, the United States or not served in the military there, you we're all still affected by this war, by, by this trauma from that war. In so many ways, I think we can point to the election of Donald Trump as a, as a, just almost like a canary in the cage, that something's really wrong with, uh, with our country. We're divided. That narrative of division is so through all the Trump stuff. But it's, it really points to this idea of instability and trauma has a destabilizing effect. It turns someone's world upside down. I think that election was a byproduct of the Iraq and Afghanistan war, but especially the Iraq war, our, um, invasion, our destabilization, our turning a whole region upside down thinking that it wouldn't affect us back home or that we could keep it over there, um, in some way. Well, it's very much here, and it always was. So that, that's one thing I learned about war as a young army chaplain was, uh, I was in my twenties when I was an army chaplain, and I started that as a child, even though I was older than, you know, most of the people I served with. And that's, that's the nature of war is it's often a young person's activity. But, um, I realized, I, when I came back from the Iraq war, I realized that I had participated in a war as a chaplain, like the least violent character in the, in the na in the play. But, uh, that war had participated in me in ways that I had never imagined that my world was turned upside down. I had untreated P T S D and I, and yet as a spiritual leader, religious leader, I thought there's no way that I could have this. The, the soldiers had it, the guys who were kicking down doors, the people that were in huge explosions and, you know, horrific, um, cataclysmic events of war certainly could have these kinds of, uh, injuries, mental injuries. But I couldn't, cuz I was a chaplain, I was a caregiver. And even though I was around all that all the time, I, I didn't think it could happen to me. And then I started looking at my life, what was happening to me de the destabilizing effect of war. Uh, war always takes something from people, but you're never sure what it's gonna take. And for me it was my sense of goodness that I was good. So I think that the trauma of war has had an effect that everyone in this country and everyone around the world especially, but esp, you know, thinking of America and this book's coming out in America and like this, um, this is a, a book for people that have been through all this in the last 20 years. Uh, it's affected all of us in all kinds of different ways from our economy to our just sense of can we trust our government, uh, on any level? Can we trust our, uh, police forces, our military, um, in a way that maybe we could before felt like we could before? All of that trauma is a destabilizing effect cuz it wounds our sense of goodness about ourselves and about other people. And it, and it makes, um, us suspicious and hostile towards each other. Um, all that, those symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, hyper uh, arousal, always being alert, always being on guard. Uh, so many Americans needing to feel like they have to carry a gun around to feel safe in this country. And I've ch I have a child in an elementary school in Texas right now. He is there today, you know, and that I think about the shootings in these schools every day. Um, our church, um, meets in an elementary school in Texas. You know, uh, this is the trauma, the trauma of life is all around us all the time. And, uh, whether we're experiencing it firsthand, we're definitely experiencing it secondhand. That secondhand smoke of violence is, is almost as, uh, debilitating as the firsthand experience. So I think that, you know, military trauma does get the most recognition and care in our culture. It's sort of seen as honorable in some way, whereas other traumatic events happen to people are not. And yet trauma is the same. Post-traumatic stress disorder is the same. Uh, I wrote a book earlier, um, many years ago, a couple years ago, four veterans, like how the church Cares for Veterans who have Been to Hell and back. And it was very focused on veterans, veterans trauma, veterans trauma. But everyone that had read it, uh, would tell me, you know, I'm not a veteran, but everything you said about trauma related to me. Cuz when this happened to me, I was sexually assaulted. I was, I was in a car accident. I was in a, a robbery, uh, you know, you name the traumatic event, people were able to say no, that that stuff resonated with me. So this book is an outgrowth of that to say trauma is all the same. Anything that turns your world upside down like that, that makes you feel that you're not safe anymore, that loss of the illusion of safety that that kind of carry around with us for a certain period of our life, um, goes away when our lives are really threatened in that way. And, you know, even the diagnosis of P T S D that's um, used today came out of studies of really traumatized Vietnam veterans that were suffering very dramatic symptoms of violence and rage and homeless, uh, homelessness and withdraw from communities and their symptoms, paralleled victims of sexual assault who were primarily women. Uh, and, and those, those groups, psychiatrists, psychologists, and researchers who were studying both populations, were able to see, like, there's this commonality of trauma. And I, I found that to be something that the story of Jesus really relates to. Cuz Jesus did speak to veterans. Certainly He, he addressed soldiers, he talked to soldiers. And in fact, the, the, the words that this, this one is the Son of God comes out of the mouth of a soldier at, at his crucifixion. He's the only one who kind of gets it. Um, cuz he understands the, the, the, the mystical nature of trauma and the of, and violence and how that, that, um, takes away all the, the, uh, props of a person's life, the veneers, the facades and all that. And you really get to see someone as they really are. And so I think the, the mess, the story of Jesus relates to everybody today in this country who's felt the effects of these traumatic events, these wars that we've been invo involved in, involved in. And we live in a very like bloodless society in some ways. We buy our chicken boneless, skinless, you know, in a cellophane wrapper if we're, you know, we eat meat. It's always a very like process that's very far away from what is actually happening to provide us that the, that food and just even that example, um, that we do, that we do try to keep ourselves away from these things, but ultimately they have an effect on us. And I think that's what Jesus knew when he was here on this earth in his life. All the stories of his life have some connection to that, that experience. And I try to highlight those in this book, um, because I think people need to know, or, or people in our churches deserve to know that Jesus is there for them in their post-traumatic confusion. Uh, one of the symptoms of P T S D is a fores shortened future where you, it's really hard to see good things coming. I think there's a, um, the way I understand it as a non-expert and, and trauma or P s D is I'm a, you know, I'm a preacher, not a, not not a doctor, but, um, to understand that when you feel like you're gonna die, something's threatening you. And there's, especially over a long period of time, like complex P T S D or when you're in a hostage situation, an abusive relationship or a war that just kind of keeps dragging on, you never know if you're gonna get blown up at any moment. We kind of become numb to our own death. We kind of be accepted a little bit and maybe wish for it a little bit, um, or a lot. And so that symptom of a for shortened future, I'm not gonna live very long so I can kind of feel okay in a way. All of our, all P T S D is, from my perspective, is a way to cope with overwhelming, uh, horror. And when we're faced with overwhelming horror, um, our minds do all kinds of things to kind of survive that. So P T S D is a survival, uh, mechanism, but the lingering effects of that really keep us from hoping, because cuz that four shortened future means you can't hope you can't imagine anything getting better. And Jesus offers hope, but he doesn't offer hope to anybody. That's, that's, that doesn't include going through that crucifixion experience. To me, that pattern of Jesus life is death and his resurrection is the pattern of all human life. That at one time or another, every human being is gonna die. Uh, obviously we're gonna die at the end<laugh>. Um, that's, that's a horror in itself, even if it's kind of a good death. But along the way, we're gonna have little deaths that, that really make us feel like our lives are over. Like we're never getting out of this. And then out of that becomes the possibility of resurrection, a new start, a new hope, um, a new possibility. And to me, that pattern of death and resurrection is something I see in my own life. I see in Jesus life. And I think if people can see that when they're coming out of a traumatic event, that there is some hope, but they have to go through that crucifixion experience. Not that we want anyone to have that or wish that on anybody, and we don't stand with them in that. I do think that just in working on this book and thinking about it, it's made me more aware that who I need to be with people who are, uh, facing that kind of life-threatening trauma. I know the, the threat of violence that, um, black Americans feel from police and certainly all people of color feel from police forces, from just the white supremacists movement in America. All the forces that are inherently violent, they're motivated by violence. They want to use violence to, to stop people from speaking, from sharing their experiences, from gaining justice and equality. All those things are places that Christians need to be nearby. In my community here in Texas, the attack on transgender children and their parents is like a, a hot political issue. But it, it is a, it is an issue that is backed up by violence. The threat of having your children removed from your home are things that people in my congregation experience all the time. So th this, this idea that, um, war is somehow over there, um, it all has a way of coming back into our lives all the time. And so, and Jesus is there with us in those places. That's, that's why I think Christians should engage in social justice, um, solidarity movements in ministries that are connected to that. And in standing up and saying, we're gonna stand with people who are being threatened at this at this point, because that's where Jesus will be. And that's where Jesus already is. Uh, Jesus knows, knows those wounds in his own body and still carries them. Uh, that that's, and that's the beauty of resurrection is that we, those wounds do not go away. They are, they're transformed into marks of honor and glory. Um, and we can't, the thing about, um, pastoral care in this is that we can't really tell people that this is all gonna be good for you eventually<laugh> or something like that. I think that's the danger of talking about trauma in the Christian community or out elsewhere, is that somehow we think this will be good for people or that, you know, I'm so glad you're going through this awful thing cuz you're gonna come out really strong after this. In fact, trauma has a, just a weakening effect on people. It did, on me at least. Um, I was much less functional as a, just an ordinary relational human being. Um, after the Iraq war, and I'm, I'm starting to heal, um, healing's, a lifelong process from that, uh, learning how to trust again. Uh, that's another traumatic, uh, wound. You know, we think about trust as Christians every Sunday in our church. And many other Christian churches we say are creeds. I believe, I believe in God the father and and churches that don't use creeds on Sunday have other statements of belief. They say, we believe this, we believe this. Do you believe this? We believe this. And belief in trust are inter intertwined and, and trauma or trust dies in traumatic events. Uh, we think we're safe and suddenly we're not. Uh, something has come in and threatened us. And so that loss of trust is a really deep wound. And Jesus is here to teach us how to trust again. First we learn how to trust him and learn how to trust the community that he's started on this earth. And that's hard to do. It's hard to trust a church. I mean, churches have inflicted trauma on people with our purity culture, with our inan rules and regulations on young people in our, uh, oppression and and violence towards L G B T Q. People in America and around the world, like you name it, churches have participated in this violence as well. And so as a church, we need to always be, um, remembering that we were founded by a severely traumatized savior who I don't think you, uh, get crucified without having physical wounds that Jesus still shows us and also invisible wounds that, um, are inside him. And I don't know what that looks like. Um, I try to explore some of that in this book, um, how that might, um, we might experience that. But that to me is still a mystery. If Jesus has post-traumatic stress disorder, um, if Jesus has effects of the crucifixion, the traumatic crucifixion, um, in his own life, an ongoing love for us. And to me, if anything, it makes him more, more, more, um, capable of being one of us. Because to be a full human being, the incarnation of Jesus, uh, to really be human means that you have to go through some trauma. And that is something he does to show that he is one of us in a really profound way. So to me it's Jesus identifying with us through his trauma. Uh, and that, that to me is something I think we need to tell people in our churches. I hope this book can help people do that. Um, whether they're preaching, whether they're teaching, or just sharing ideas about Christianity, I think that'll, that'll be of use to them.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate this because I think it's sort of like the way the question was worded. It's so easy to just say, this is Jesus life. This is the narrative. This is where we are in the lectionary, and here we go along again in the, in this sort of cycle. But if we really do think about the personal as well as the more contextual trauma that Jesus experienced, I mean, imagine being betrayed and sold out by your friends and then being denied by someone who you told them, you're gonna sell me out or you're going to deny me. And then they still do it. I mean, that's a, I don't know if I could trust again after that. And yet he still comes back after the resurrection and says, here I am. By the way, you didn't believe it when the women told you I'm, I would, I'm here. So now I have to show you, there's a lot, there's a lot to unpack there. And so I'm, I'm appreciative for this conversation and reminding myself about thinking, thinking about exploring that more. And as we're thinking about other aspects of trauma and times in our lives, obviously the Covid 19 pandemic has been a hugely traumatic experience. And in some ways I think it's, I mean, you correctly pointed out that war is something that comes back to all of us, even if we don't expect it. The pandemic, I think is the one thing that everyone went through at the same time, no matter what stage of life, no matter your level of privilege, you did have to go through that. And I'm just curious how you would see the pandemic from a post-traumatic Jesus perspective, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Um, this book, uh, came out of the pandemic, like a lot of things in the that time. I, I, I had thought about doing something like this with the gospels, but um, it was really that first, like, whatever we call it, lockdown, shut down, all those things that, um, I started talking and thinking about it seriously and starting to work on it because I knew that like we were in for some really horrific things. My brother was living in China, you know, before the pandemic hit here and was telling me some things that were happening there. And, and I, I said, that'll never happen in America. You know,<laugh>, like just, there's no way. But part of me said, and that's the P t s d part of me that said, oh yeah, this could happen. Totally. And I was having kind of like apocalyptic dreams in some ways when you're, you're kind of like horror and like everything's falling apart. I was having those in December and leading up and, and then when it all started, you know, it was just like, oh yeah, this is like what I was thinking about and what I was feeling and, and, and the trauma of, of, uh, the loss of trust in each other. The loss of trust in our government. Uh, that constant feeling that at any moment you could cause harm to someone by passing a disease to them, uh, at any moment you could get a disease that could kill you in a, in a short time. Um, and then of course the piling up of bodies of, of just like invisible bodies. They're, they're, they're somewhere else, but they're, we hear about them, we hear about someone who has it. And you know, that sort of, uh, cumulative slow drip horror and threat, uh, has a huge effect on people. I see it in my church context, in the way people participate in community now is vastly different from how they did before. Uh, all of us have had those ships. And those are all post-traumatic responses to the kind of horror that we've been through. And I, I do try to name that for people as best I can as a leader and a speaker. Cause I think that a lot of people think they're the only ones that felt anything cuz they look around, they see everybody walking around and playing golf and everything. But like ultimately everybody has some effect of this, even if it's a belligerent effect. Like, it's not happening, it's not happening to me. It's not happening. You know, even that is a, a trauma response. You see people do that kind of thing in a war. Like nothing can hurt me. I will, I've been destructible<laugh> that's a, a response to that kind of trauma too. So the, the world of Jesus was a profoundly diseased world. Uh, for the first time in human history. There was the, the, the roads, the Roman roads could carry diseases rapidly around the world. The, the first pandemics had not happened. The first pandemic on record is the Anton Plague, I believe. And that's, you know, a ways after Jesus is here in the first century. But there were many, many, uh, end is it endemics my terminology off<laugh>, um, smaller pandemics that were more localized, uh, that were happening all the time. And so when Jesus is healing people, who is he healing? You know, he was healing people that had these kinds of diseases. There were certainly wounds, people with wounds or, or, um, diseases that, um, caused chronic conditions and all those sorts of things. But there were other diseases that were sweeping through and killing people and people needed healing for those. So to me, like the world of Jesus is a profoundly, uh, sick world where people, um, certainly had healthcare. They had lots of healthcare in the ancient world. It wasn't that great. And then again, like we look at our healthcare today, and it's not always that great for things like a pandemic. Um, how do you keep disease from spreading even if, you know, if you even have microscopes and stuff that didn't help us that much,<laugh>. Um, it didn't prevent a lot of disease. Uh, people, we all, you know, li tried to live our lives as best we could and be cautious, but ultimately these diseases are really good at spreading. And so the zoo and nautical diseases, uh, that, that are, you know, passed from animals to humans we're certainly there in Jesus world. And this was part of, of his life and ministry. There's something about, um, in the Episcopal Church, we used prayer books. You know, if Esca and Episcopalian, they pray, they reached for a book. And we have the, a prayer book from the 1979 year. It was made in 1979 and there's no prayer for a pandemic in the 1979 prayer book. The idea was that, that we had moved beyond the, the, these kinds of diseases that could affect a large percent of the population. You look at the 1928 prayer book right after the, uh, influenza epidemic or pandemic, and then every prayer before that had prayers for a plague, prayers for a pandemic, prayers for a time of great sickness where everybody is shut down. And I think the modern world was extremely naive to think this couldn't happen to us. Uh, but it in the world of Jesus, everybody knew that it could. And people did know that people pass diseases to each other back then, you know, they didn't always know how or anything. But to me, in the life of Jesus, I see that in, in his story as well that the healing ministry does. When it says many, many sick people come to him, it's like, yeah, imagine a whole community experiencing disease on a mass scale. And, and the one of the real harsh things about the pandemic we experienced was that was the loss of community. And if you look at the stories of Jesus, he's always restoring people to community. That's, um, in his, many of his healing miracles, he's taking diseases that had a huge amount of stigma like leprosy and others and then restoring people to community through that. And he does that today, I think for people too. Um, during the pandemic, I think a lot of us kind of figured out what we could trust, who we could trust, who we were willing to, to um, even take very carefully calculated risks to be in community with, um, forming pods or going to visit people with quarantines and all sorts of precautions. But that need to be with people to, to, to give love and to receive love is something that I think was really highlighted in this pandemic. And so the healing from a pandemic is learning to trust again, learning to find community again, learning to, to give that gift of trust again and to still be cautious. Those are all like, to me, the what healing looks like in this very recent, whatever you call this world that we're in now, a post pandemic world, I'm not sure that's an accurate term. Uh, post vaccine world<laugh>, post vaccine pandemic, you know, there's a lot of, we don't even have a term for it cuz it hasn't really happened yet, but that loss of community, um, and the, and the limits of biological family. There's another theme in the gospels that your biological family, including Jesus' own, had limits for what it could do to heal people and to be, to really provide the kind of love that people need. The church is ultimately that family, that community that offers a healing presence. And, and the affirmation that you belong here, um, in trauma, uh, the wounds that of the soul are often that we somehow contributed to it. We somehow caused this. I heard so many people say, I don't wanna give covid to my grandmother. I don't wanna give covid to, it's like, okay, you're not giving this to anybody. The disease has, is gonna do its thing that it does really well through you or use you for that. But this is not you trying, you know, giving it to somebody, somebody if somebody gets it. But even their, our language has that sense of moral responsibility on it. Um, and obviously we can be more or less cautious, um, and that's a moral choice in many ways. But ultimately, most people that got covid got it from a very close family member that they sort of had to be in community with. And that, um, speaks to that, that trauma and guilt from that. Uh, and something you mentioned earlier about even the women that testified to Jesus resurrection and then Jesus coming back and reminding everybody that he's alive again, that to be believed, for someone to believe you, to believe that you were in a traumatic event, to believe your story is a hugely healing thing. So I hope this book will help people to tell their stories. Before the pandemic, it was during the, um, early Trump era, if you will,<laugh>, where a lot of stories of sexual assault were hitting the news, might call it the Me too movement or something where, where these stories were were coming to light. I was walking through the fellowship hall of my church, uh, at the time I was serving at, and an older woman older than me stopped me. And, um, as senior citizen, you know, someone that's as a baby boomer, that generation said to me, um, you know, she was describing an event that was in the news that happened to me when I was 19. And, uh, and I've never told anybody about that. And I thought like, what a wound, you know, in her soul that that, that she had, she was assaulted in that way and, and, you know, hurt in that way. And she never told anybody until like, it became a bigger story. And then she knew that maybe somebody might believe her. And, uh, I don't even know if she thought I would believe her. Um, but, but she took that risk and of trust. And I think that like we, we always, you know, that that is a huge part of healing. So I think healing from a pandemic, one of the tasks of the church is to listen and to hear the stories of what people endured, the isolation, the loneliness, the troubled relationships that led to all sorts of, of traumas from that. Um, all the ways that people were alienated from their children, families, relatives, coworkers, um, all of that. Um, we need to share that. And a church, I think should be a place where people can do that. And if your church isn't a place where you can do that, it's our responsibility as leaders of churches to, to make sure that's, that's happening. I think that happens from our own vulnerability. I think church leaders today should be, um, sharing stories of vulnerability. Um, during the pandemic I started drinking more as a way of coping with stress. And I'd done that since the Iraq war, fairly manageable, you know, able to function. But, um, during the pandemic, I went for a test on my liver and found out I was pres in the pre cirrhosis zone. I had fibrosis of the liver from alcohol and some g family genetics and things. But, but that, that scared me to death that I could die of that suddenly soon, uh, not die of covid 19 maybe, but die of something else that's related to that experience of the pandemic. So the, the side effects of that are everywhere. So, you know, I, I changed the way I was living as far as my relationship to alcohol a year and a half later, more testing and things. And, and my liver is a lot better than it was then. And that's really, I'm really thankful for that. But this idea that this pandemic only had one effect on everybody, um, if you got Covid and died, then you, you know, we can feel bad for you or something, but ultimately this had an effect on everybody in ways that it'll take a lifetime to process. And babies that are born after this will not know about it. And they'll hear all of us people talking about it<laugh> and um, they'll say, Hey, what are you doing? Like, we're not interested in that anymore, but I think the church should be a place where people can share about those experiences.
Speaker 2:Well, this has been such an enlightening conversation. I'm really looking forward to the book. It comes out February 21st. Folks, for those that aren't aware right before the start of Lent, I believe, so maybe that might be an, an interesting Lenin, I, I dunno if it's a Lenin devotional, but a Lenin study or a a companion piece as you're going on your own Lenin Journeys. And David, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We'll be sure to have a link to the book and the show notes so folks can check it out. And blessings to you in your ministry.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Blessings to you and yours. Thanks for doing this, telling these stories. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Fate, a Presby podcast. And y'all, in fact, it was pull up, so we did do the research. But thanks to Brooke and thanks to David for being on the podcast this week. We hope you got a lot out of their conversations. And we also want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Also leave us a review. We would love to hear from you. And if you have any questions for us, send them to Faith podcast@peaceusa.org. Also, check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com, and we will again, as always, talk to you next week.