SENDING OUR PRAYERS AND CALLING FOR ACTIONS FOR OUR SIBLINGS KILLED BY GUN VIOLENCE.
Question for the Week:
Should worship services and sermons come with Trigger warnings?
Special Guest: Timestamp (8:07)
Tracey Michae’l Lewis-Giggetts, Author of Then They Came For Mine: Healing from the Trauma of Racial Violence, and Black Joy
Guest Question:
If we are to truly end racism and white supremacy, it requires work by all of us. It will require the work of dismantling, healing, and rebuilding. What is the work that white people will need to do for that to happen? What is that people of color, particularly Black and Brown people will need to do? And how do we all stay resilient and committed throughout the process?
New York Times: Should College Come With Trigger Warnings? At Cornell, It’s a ‘Hard No.
’Then They Came for Mine: Healing from the Trauma of Racial Violence
Black Joy
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
SENDING OUR PRAYERS AND CALLING FOR ACTIONS FOR OUR SIBLINGS KILLED BY GUN VIOLENCE.
Question for the Week:
Should worship services and sermons come with Trigger warnings?
Special Guest: Timestamp (8:07)
Tracey Michae’l Lewis-Giggetts, Author of Then They Came For Mine: Healing from the Trauma of Racial Violence, and Black Joy
Guest Question:
If we are to truly end racism and white supremacy, it requires work by all of us. It will require the work of dismantling, healing, and rebuilding. What is the work that white people will need to do for that to happen? What is that people of color, particularly Black and Brown people will need to do? And how do we all stay resilient and committed throughout the process?
New York Times: Should College Come With Trigger Warnings? At Cornell, It’s a ‘Hard No.
’Then They Came for Mine: Healing from the Trauma of Racial Violence
Black Joy
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Filled a matter of faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions around faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and let us know your question. And why should they do that, Lee?
Speaker 2:Because if it matters to you, then it matters to us. And it just might be what Simon?
Speaker 1:A matter of faith,
Speaker 2:A matter of faith. And let me tell you what else is a matter of faith. The amount of pollen in the air<laugh> and how it's tested my face<laugh> this week. It is because, and we're both suffering from it. So there you go.
Speaker 1:Yep. When the pollen comes out, I start wondering if I was made for this Earth
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah. I don't, I don't. Well, I know We're, we were not made for this. It's, well, and again, it's climate change. It's how people have planted things. It wasn't like this. It wasn't meant to be. It wasn't meant to be like this, Simon.
Speaker 1:Well, you know what else wasn't meant to be Lee Gun violence.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 1:That's a hard and terrible segue. But it's, it's the truth.
Speaker 2:It is the truth. It was never meant to be this way.
Speaker 1:Yep. Never meant to way It shouldn't be this way. Um, for folks that are not aware, there was a, another shooting this week, the one that we're gonna be referencing, was it at a bank in Louisville, Kentucky, uh, just a few blocks down the street from where the headquarters for the Presbyterian Church USA is located. Uh, as far as I've heard, our colleagues in Presbyterian disaster assistance have been in touch with the local Presbyterians and the local presbytery to about providing trauma support and relief if it's requested. But again, prayers for everyone in Louisville, prayers for folks affected by gun violence. Yes. Wasn't meant to be.
Speaker 2:No. And, and, and the other shooting in Louisville, I think it was at the community college, but it's, you know, how much can you say now? Because now it's up to leaders to actually to do something and Yeah. We can say things. We can protest. We can make a ruckus though. And so I hope people do that. And all the stuff down happening in Nashville is just a mess. And two people are expelled. I think they were like about to be expelled or something when our first one, our last week came out, but, Hmm. Yeah. So it's, it's a wild time and we need action. And that's pretty much what we'll just continue to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And speaking of raising voices, we have a question written in that is related to raising your voice when you, you wanna know if there's anything triggering that will be presented, whether it be in a college or academic setting, or in a church setting. So this question we're about to read, references an article that came out of the New York Times recently that reads, should college come with trigger warnings at Cornell? It's a hard no. And the question reads, should worship services and sermons come with trigger warnings? In some ways, I think that there should be warnings if there's a lot of discussion of difficult or graphic or traumatic content. But I also believe in free speech. What do you all think?
Speaker 2:I think you need a trigger warning
Speaker 1:Every time,
Speaker 2:I think. And now, yes. I think it's, it's not, it's not only like, it's not only because you kind of want to cover your basis, but it is out of the care of the congregation or whoever you're talking to. We don't know what or, or what, or what people have gone through or what trauma they go to mm-hmm.<affirmative> or go through mm-hmm.<affirmative>. We don't know that people perform in their everyday lives to the point to where n no one would ever know what someone was going through. Some people. And I think that even in saying, even in, even in kind of preface prefacing something saying, this, this sermon is, or this sermon contains language around sexual assault or sexual abuse or abuse or, you know, any kind of thing that something may come up. I think it's good for people to be warned and it's good for people to take care of themselves. I, I don't like the idea that, for one, I don't like the idea of a sermon just, just to sit there and be something that is challenging for the sake of words and not moving someone into action. But I definitely don't like something being done out of the sake of, you know, can someone suffer through this? Or even, even no matter what I say, can people just sit through it and listen to it? And, but I think, I think the more we have learned about trauma, the more we have to invite people to take care of themselves. Because I think it's an important thing to do. And I think it's the nimbleness that we all need to learn in faith is that sometimes people need to get up and leave and they don't need to put themselves in a situation. And I think that's very important. So I do think sometimes you need that. You need that warning and you need to let your, let your people know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I also think that there's a difference between just saying, I want to know about everything that's going to be said that could potentially be upsetting and just asking for context ahead of time. That can be helpful to then position myself to hear that information or hear what's being said, or if it's written, read it and just sort of know what I'm getting myself into. I do think that that can be helpful. I also think that there's an interesting balance to be struck between someone saying something that is sort of provocative or, uh, what's the word? It controversial versus like a sharing of an experience or a reading of a biblical passage, if that makes sense. And then not providing a content warning about that. So there's different ways that things could be triggering or, or not. And it really depends on the situation, but sometimes I do think some warnings would be helpful. Yeah. Especially if you're going to get into topics such as sexual assault, domestic violence, suicide, things like that can be very hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's just something that I think people should kind of always remember specifically in the church where a lot of these things have been perpetuated. It's, it's also taken accountability. And I think that that's a good thing. So my answer would be yes, try to do it as much as we can for people, even when you're posting, which a lot of people can do better. But
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, folks write in and let us know what you think. Do you think schools, academic institutions, churches, pastors, should they provide trigger and content warnings for the types of things that they provide? Let us know Faith Podcast at P C U S a.org.
Speaker 2:And we hope you enjoy Simon's conversation with Tracy Michelle Lewis Jits, who is the author of, then they came from Mine Healing from the Trauma of Racial Violence and Black Joy. It was a great conversation that Simon and Tracy had, and so we hope you enjoy it. We will also have the timestamp if you want to hear their conversations, you know, a little bit quicker, but the timestamp will be in the show notes. And again, we hope you enjoy this conversation.
Speaker 1:Well, we are so excited to be joined on the podcast today by a very special guest. Joining us is Tracy Michelle Lewis Jits, who is the author of Quite a Few Works, including Black Joy, and then they came for mine Healing from the Trauma of Racial Violence. Tracy, thank you so much for being with us today.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me,
Speaker 1:And I'm really glad that you're with us to help us think through a question that's been written in specifically about issues of race and also about healing. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, the question reads, if we are truly to end racism and white supremacy, it requires work by all of us. It will require the work of dismantling healing and rebuilding. What is the work that white people will need to do for that to happen? What is it that people of color, particularly black and brown people will need to do? And how do we all stay resilient and committed throughout this process? That's a really big question. Um, but I'm really grateful that we have you with us to help think through it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is a very big question, but what I love just out the gate about it is that it really recognizes that there is a separate work, right? There is a work that, um, white and non-black people need to do that's very different from the work that black and brown folks need to do. Right. And, um, or should do, or I invite them to do, I should say. And I think, you know, the first part of that question is what is the work that white people need to do for this kind of reckoning to happening, right? To happen, right? For, uh, there to be an anti-racism in white supremacy. And I really, one of the things that come up for me is decentering. I think that that's a work that is talked about a lot, but I don't know if that's something that, um, many allies or accomplices or co-conspirators, whatever language you wanna use for that really, really take to heart and into consider. And I'll, I'll give you a story that kind of, I think illuminates what I mean by that. So my husband and my daughter and I, we used to live outside of Philadelphia, and one of the things we used to love to do there was this huge Greek festival. And this, I mean, it was amazing. It was all the things. It was absolutely wonderful. All the food, you know, we'd go, we'd watch the shows, we'd watch the people, um, but, and then we'd have a great time, right? But what we would not do is that we didn't get on the stage and tell them, can I dance with you? Um, at no point in time did we ever say, um, well, maybe you shouldn't put that much honey in the whatever<laugh>. Right? You know, at no point in time did we center ourselves and their celebration and their cultural expression, we appreciated it. We made time and space for it to happen, and we participated as much as we were invited to. But I think when you're talking about like white folks and allyships and doing this work, I think a decentering really does have to happen. And, you know, that's uncomfortable, I think. And, you know, if a world in a society has said that you are the standard and Right. Um, and I'm saying that in order for you to participate in this work of equality and equity, you have to decenter yourself. You have to be able to sit under the leadership of black and brown folks to allow your voice, which does matter, to maybe, you know, be quiet for a little bit<laugh>, right? Um, so that other voices that have not mattered, right. To be heard, that can be hard. And I think some of, even within those who are in social justice work that happen to be white or non-black, I think one of the challenges, the resistance, the internal resistance there is like having to do the work of sitting back or de-centering. I think that's, I think that's so huge because I've seen in certain movements where, you know, there's great intention, but the impact is that there is a centering of a standard that doesn't align a cultural standard, whatever we're talking about, right? Like, that doesn't align with the people whose voices need to be heard or the, the issue that needs to be addressed. Um, so I think that is a, is a premier work for, for white people. I also think, I hear a lot of my ally friends talk about, you know, I'm listening and I'm learning, right? And I get that and I love it. And that's, I think, a starting point because not everybody comes from the same place or has the same access to information about people of different cultures, but I think there's like two additional Ls that we have to add to that, which is, after you've listened and after you've learned, how do you locate where the issues and gaps are? Can you take what you learned in, in the workplace or in your church or, you know, at the school or on the campus, be able to see the evidence of what you've learned about Right. The history or whatever. And I, I, I think that that's important. And then how do you leverage whatever privilege, whatever status, you know, that you might carry to help, um, create equity or, you know, inclusion wherever you are. So I think those are like the two things I think about in terms of like for white people. And I think for black people, I mean, the primary work, and this is centerpiece of my work, is that we must heal as if white supremacy is not going anywhere. We must heal whether or not we solve the problem of racism or not. Right? Because I think, and, and part of that healing work is I talk a lot about joy. Like how do we sit in our joy? How do we give ourselves permission and access to joy in spite of what's going on around us in spite of the grief and in spite, how do we hold grief and rage in the same space as joy? Right? And we gotta do that whether or not our movements, you know, whether or not we even see in our lifetime the kinds of shifts that we hope that our move movements can create. Um, and that's hard. That's another hard thing, right? Because we want to see the fruit of our labor. I think we're doing ourselves a disservice if we don't shift our focus to our collective and personal healing, whether that is dealing with generational trauma or what hap what's happening in our bodies, our physical bodies. And we're so outwardly focused on the work that has to happen. I think that is a thing that can really maybe even make the work more richer or, you know, more effective is that when we're taking care of ourselves. And the last part of that question was<laugh>, how do we all stay resilient and committed throughout the process? I think that black and brown folks don't have an issue with resilience. I think that we have been given resilience from our ancestors. Um, it is built in our D N A I I always say the black and brown folks, indigenous folks are some of the most resilient people on the planet, right? Um, cuz we've had to be, or we wouldn't still be here, right? And so I don't know if there's anything we need to do to stay resilient, but in terms of committed, I think part of the longevity of the work comes from what I said before, the healing work. What's happening, what's happening behind the scenes. Are we resting? Are we, you know, drinking our water? Are we taking care of our bodies? Are we, you know, dealing with the emotional upheaval that comes with the constant violence and those kinds of things. So that's how I think we all can do stay committed. And I think that white non-black folks will learn resilience along the way. I mean, that's the short part of that right? Is that you will learn to be resilient as you get knocked down and keep standing back up. Right? But you have to have, I guess the, the desire to see such change that may not again, happen in your lifetime so much so that you're willing to sacrifice whatever short-term suffering you may experience or whatever. So I think that's like, I don't know, like I feel like I rambled, but<laugh> no. I also think that that is like my, those are my initial thoughts.
Speaker 1:No, that was wonderful. And all of your points relate back to each other. If I think about, as you said, that resilience that black brown indigenous people have, that is something that I really do think white siblings could stand to learn some<laugh> learn about. Yeah. And I think that that touches back on the dec the decentering you were talking about as well. Because if you are decentering yourself, that also means you acknowledge, you may not see the change that is necessary in your own lifetime, like you said. But it's so easy when you are a person of privilege to think, oh, I wanna make it happen and I wanna make it happen now. And I wanna see and feel the benefits. I wanna know and I wanna know that I was a part of it.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And it's like, that's not how this works
Speaker 3:<laugh> at all. It's, and what is, you make a good point because I think what Decentering also does is it inevitably will create discomfort. And if you can sit in the, the discomfort, then it's a, and and, and still participate in the work, then that is a kind of resilience, right? Like you are creating the mechanism for maybe larger resilience down the road when you are able to decenter yourself feel the discomfort of that and still stay present in the work. Right? And that is a tiny bit of what black and brown and indigenous folks have to do all the time, which is sometimes in a space make certain decisions that keep that, that help us survive that moment. But yet we keep pressing on, we keep persevering. Right? And, and so I think that's maybe like a tiny peek into, you know, what so-called marginalized people or identities have to deal with.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And to tie it to faith, I think something that people encounter, at least in my experiences with particularly people of color, um, in this case, I sort of had this learning serving as a volunteer in, in South Korea mm-hmm.<affirmative> talking to people who survive the Korean War, survive Japanese occupation, things like that. But again, as you said, marginalized, oppressed folks, something that I think that there's a perspective about faith in God that is gained or learned through that experience in resilience. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> that is maybe not as apparent if you are someone who has not, I'm not saying you need to suffer, but if you have not had some of that generational experience Right. Um, particularly questions about like why does God allow bad things to happen? Sort of that, that kind of a mindset and allowing the question to be flipped to where is God at work, amids this, this terrible situation I find myself in. Absolutely. Or amidst this, a many of or amidst this tragedy that is affecting so many people is where is God in there and looking for God as opposed to just constantly questioning God's existence in the first place. Which is, I'm not saying is not natural Right. But a little bit of a, a shift in perspective I think is maybe also a part of that resilience.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I think what faith does is it, it provides a stabilizer and a grounding that if, if you don't participate or have it can cause you to spiral into that, that questioning. Right. Questions are good. And I, I just speaking for myself when I lost my family member to racial violence, which I write about, about, and then they came from mine, you know, I had a lot of that rage and a lot of that anger at this clear, racially motivated violence. And I had all of the trauma responses. Like, I, I still find it difficult to go into a grocery store now cuz she was, you know, shot and killed in a grocery, you know? And so there was a lot of that why God did you allow this happen? She's the sweetest, she was the night of all people. Why her? You know? Um, and I think what helped, and even my healing process was what you just said, which is shifting my lens and looking at it from the perspective of like, how is God sustaining me in within this moment? How has God even been present right. In the midst of such violence? Right. And, and being able to clearly see that being a person of faith allowed me to be able to clearly see where God was still at work. Uh, let me, let me scratch that. Not exactly clearly<laugh> mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but the effort that I made to try to see God in the midst of this was stabilizing for me when I felt like my body and my mind was going to go off the deep end because of the rage and the sorrow that was so big in my body. Right. It was the reason it put me on the path to trying to find joy in the midst of, I don't think, I don't, I don't wanna use absolutes, but I feel as though trying to, it, it's, it's more challenging to find joy in the midst of if you don't have the grounding that faith and belief gives you, it's not impossible, I don't think, but I think it's more challenging when you don't have that as, as your baseline. Um, at least for
Speaker 1:Me, that's really insightful. And I, it makes me also wonder about where we hear about this from say our pulpits in churches on Sunday mornings, and whether your congregation is mostly people of color, uh, a diverse congregation, or let's be perfectly honest, um, this is, uh, the Presbyterian Church USA's podcast, uh, uh, many congregations that are not as diverse. And how do we, how do we have that message coming through in our leadership, and not just in our leadership, but also what our churches are doing to try to remind people of both resilience, decentralization, particularly of, of whiteness
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Right.
Speaker 1:And also fi like you were saying, finding joy amidst the hard work. Yeah. And, and how, how can we do a better job of that? And we've talked a little bit about that on the podcast before, but it's always been a constant question about what do you do? Do you just ask your, do you have to like, be like, Hey pastor, uh,<laugh>. Yeah. No, maybe you can incorporate these kind of messages<laugh> on Sunday morning. Cause um, we're not getting it right now and if we don't hear it here, I'm not sure we're gonna remember to take that with us when we go back into our busy weeks and our lives once we leave the sanctuary.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think that especially, you know, white pastoral leadership ha you know, the work that, that I just said that all white people should, or I invite them to be begin doing has to happen there also, right? There has to be a willingness to sit in the discomfort of, I don't know Right. The discomfort of, you know, I'm not really sure, you know, how to decenter<laugh>, you know, if you're in a predominantly white space, how do you, you know, why is that necessary? Why, why do I need to do that? Like, what, what am I teaching? And so that, that discomfort and that decentering means that then you'll have to bring yourself under the leadership of black and brown pastors and, and those folks and be willing to hear, listen, locate where the challenge is in your own congregation, and then be willing to allow those voices to be heard with even within. Um, and I think that's the biggest challenge because we are so segregated and we are so separate in a lot of ways and the, and in the ways that we worship in our theological stances and beliefs, all of those kinds of things. And so I think that's the, the first step. Um, and I also think that black churches will have to be, you know, in an effort to be resilient in an effort to help us live another day, survive another day. Sometimes the harder, um, emotions or the harder conversations, or the more challenging conversations aren't had, right. Because we, and you know, I'm, I'm, I'm preaching this word on Sunday to help you get through the week. And I, if I talk about the hard thing, if I talk about the rage, if I talk about if I align your rage with the, with the frustration of Jesus in the temple, right? Like if I, if I began to do that, then what, how am I giving you, am I gonna send you out the door full of rage? Right. Like, I, I, you know, and so there's going to have to be in an embracing of our, our own humanity, right. And a way to not create, you know, silos, I think mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, for ourselves. And I mean, and that's hard. I I I I haven't really seen much of it happen<laugh>. So I think it, I think it's hard, but I think if you're asking like, what can the church do, I think those are two starting points.
Speaker 1:I think those are great starting points. Um, I wanted to touch on another aspect of the decentralization that you mentioned. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, something that I've observed, and this is just in my own experience mm-hmm.<affirmative>, is that one aspect of particularly more progressive, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna term it progressive white Christianity, right? Is that sometimes folks get a little carried away, for lack of a better word. I'm not, I don't want to just sit here and like criticize woke culture because I'm not necessarily saying that, but what I'm trying to describe is a point where it's like, we know that we don't know, we know that white people have historically not listened, have, uh, inflicted harm. We know that we're, we know that it's been bad, but then that turns into a type of white rage where it's like, but we also, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? It's an anger that is about the wrongs that have been committed. It's fueled somewhat by guilt, but then they like almost get it right where they, they know they need to listen, they know they need to empower, but then they get it, sort of, people get it in their minds about one specific way about what that looks like. And then when someone calls them is calls into question the perspective or the method, it becomes, oh, you're not progressive enough or you are not, you know, or, oh, you must, you must be a racist now because you're calling into question the means by which we are going about trying to do this. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:I hear you. I think where I, I kind of challenge that a little bit mm-hmm.<affirmative> is that, uh, it seems like in that example, they're just white people talking to white people, right.<laugh>. Right, right, right, right, right. If that, you know, so-called progressive white Christian is creating themselves the, the solutions, right. If they are developing and have embraced a particular perspective, um, or a particular method from their own lens, then yeah, absolutely. That's problematic. Right. I think that the, the, the biggest challenge is that what has to happen is that there has to be a turning to the, the people who are, who have these lived experiences who are living this. And we get to formulate the methods based on, you know, I mean, yes. You know, some people would say, yes, we need theological alignment, we need all those things. But above and beyond that, like my lived experience says that this method of healing or this method is, is, is working best for this particular moment. Cuz it really is a moment by moment issue by issue thing, right? Like, the thing that's going to help solve racial violence of racial gun violence or mass mass shootings or whatever looks very different than the thing that is maybe policy work at, you know, when it comes to economics or something like that. Those are two different things. But what I would say is that who is creating the methods matters and the voices that are speaking to the methods and mechanisms matters. Right? And so if you have a white person who is maybe more conservative, that is debating with a white progressive person about a method, and on either side of that equation, right, there's a problem. Right? Right. And the, and the problem is, is that the people who need to be heard, the people who need to be listened to, right? Um, and it's not to say that there aren't, you know, variations and dynamics on that side as well, right? But mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, I think that there, that is part of the dissenting, right? It's to say, I, I believe that this particular method, I I seem to be drawn to it, but at the same time, I need to listen to the people who are saying what's effective for their communities and for the, the, the thriving of their communities. And you know, here's the, here is what I think is the big people don't talk enough about, um, and especially in the church, is that the truth is, is that if you are right sizing something, right, you're right sizing, you know, if racism has caused inequity, that in order to right size something, you have to give more to one side and take away from another side, it's inevitable. Right? And that taking away causes resistance, causes fear, causes, you know, a sense of loss. Right? And I think we don't necessarily address that. And so what I find sometimes is even progressive, um, white Christians want to see the advancement or see the, the, the growth or the healing or whatever of black and brown folks without there being any loss, without there being, without, you know, any other, without really being willing to grieve what will have to happen in order for that to occur. Right? And so I, you know, I say that, you know, inevitably we get, like I, you know, as a writer of a book called Black Joy, I got plenty of, you know, messages from folks who's like, you know, I feel like you're dividing joy. Joy is universal journals a universal, you know, experience, you're creating another division. Right? And I'm saying the reality is, is that my joy was, there was an attempt to steal my joy from the trans-Atlantic slave trade to Jim Crow, to redlining, to police brutality. Like all of these things is an attempt on dehumanizing me and taking my joy. It's not white joy that was stolen. It's not the universal joy that was stolen in mine. And so, anytime you take something out of the equation, you have to name it to put it back, right? Like you have to name the thing. So black joy, black lives matter, black history month, black, you know, black, all these things we have to name the thing that has been potentially or has been potentially lost, right? But in doing that, we have to, those conversations will take precedent over the conversations that center white people, right? Because those conversations have always been centered. And I think we don't talk enough about, so when you talking about that dynamic, what I actually hear is, yes, there's no, you know, black and brown folks in that conversation. But also, like, I, I need to, I need a method that's gonna make me not lose anything. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> not, not, not risk anything, not sacrifice anything. And that does not, if we're really truly trying to get to this space, this place of, you know, where white supremacy and racism is not a thing, right? That is not, it is not going to happen without that tension, without that loss. And I think that's something that has to be reckoned with.
Speaker 1:I think for context, what I was trying to describe often, whether it's a congregation or an organization, it's like, oh, we're, we're anti-racist. I'm like, yes, you're anti-racist, but you are also pretty much an all white group. So what does that really mean?
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Especially as someone who identifies as a multiracial person of color, I'm like, I can look around the room and I'm like, you say you're anti-racist, but I don't feel it
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Right?
Speaker 1:Um, and I don't see it. And so there's a question about what, again, what does that mean? And you have named what it means you have, and
Speaker 3:It's conceptual, right? Anti mean, anti-racist, anti-racist is now just theoretical, right? Like what I, you know, if your immediate lives, and I I say this to like individual white people, but also like in these collectives, like in the church, in academia, in all of these spaces, if you're, the, the, the spaces in which you move are not reflective of that, right? Then where are you implementing what you have learned<laugh>, right? Where are you implementing anti-racist thoughts and ideas and practices? Like where are you putting that to work because you're not doing it in a predominantly white congregation. Right? And I can sense as a black person when I walk in and I, you know, I speak in those spaces, I work in those spaces, you know, if I'm in that space, I can sense very quickly whether or not that is a theoretical a an intellectual exercise and whether it's a, it is a deep down soul changing, embracing of a concept like that. You know, there's two, and I can feel that very clearly, as you said you can. Right? And so you're right. Like, you know, so, so then what does it mean? Is it, I don't think it makes anti-racism problematic, it just makes that, you know, this particular space has not fully implemented what they've said they've learned into their day-to-day. Cuz otherwise they'd be actively attempting to diversify their congregations. They'd probably, and even if that's not possible, just simply by virtue of geographic location, then are you coming together with the black church, you know, 30 miles away to maybe to have a combined service? Are you like, what, like what are you actively trying to do? Or are you looking at the demographics of your city and figuring out how do you, um, serve marginalized communities within the town? Like what, how is it being implemented within, you know, that space? So
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, I think that's a great challenge for, for a lot of congregations and, and organizations. And, uh, before we close, I did wanna, I recognize that, um, uh, I have sort of steered our conversation talking a lot about the decentralization of white people, which means that we've talked a lot about white people on this episode so far,<laugh>. So I would like to steer it back to, to, to talk about people of color, particularly black and brown folk. And I just, I want you to talk a little bit more in depth about this joy that you have. Ta mentioned a little bit about already you mentioned that joy is something that has been, has been taken. It is something that is it, it can be in the sense of, like you said, police brutality, transatlantic slave trade, all of these things are things that actively attack, take away joy. Yeah. Yeah. They take joy away. How can joy be reclaimed and how can joy be found again? And how do you continue to find joy as maybe amidst that resilience and amidst, you know, trauma, amidst depression, amidst racism, all of those things. Because I think that is also something that, as you said, everyone can learn from that. Absolutely. Um, and it's something that I think we all should think about more.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. So let me just clarify a little bit mm-hmm.<affirmative>, there was an tent to still do it. Yes. The beautiful thing about black and brown folks is that joy is the thing that, you know, it's like my elder grandmother used to sing in church, this joy I have, the world didn't give it, and the world can't take it away. It's the thing that could not be stolen, right? But what I will say that, um, as a result of these traumatic, historical, and present day events, there is a reaction in the body for many black folks to says that I can't hold joy. Right? I can't, and I can't give my myself permission to experience joy because it, it's kind of, um, what psychologists call, um, foreboding joy. Like this sense that if my joy is gonna be taken at any point in time mm-hmm.<affirmative>, so it's not a full embracing and expression of joy. And so, you know, I think where, where black and brown folks the work is, is in accessing the joy that already exists in our bodies, right? And giving ourselves permission to ex experience that joy. So for me, I entered the thought and conversation and writing about black joy, um, from grief, right? So I'm grieving, um, I'm doing a lot of d e I work at the campus, I was teaching teaching at the time, and there's a lot of hostility. And so I'm holding rage. I'm holding grief. And I had a, a therapist say to me, Tracy, what does joy feel like in your body? And I couldn't name it, right? I could not remember what it felt like in my body. And so I began to do the work to try to pay attention to moments where I believed myself to be experiencing joy and feeling it in my body, and taking a snapshot of that feeling the same way as if I said to you, you know, um, what does anger feel like in your body? You know how you call up the memory that's gonna tick you off and<laugh>, you know, and now you have it, you feel it in your body, you're angry, you're, ugh. You know, same thing with grief. Like what, what, tell gimme a moment when you feel sad. Oh, well, I, I know that thing that I can call up that's gonna make me cry. I, I, I began to do that for myself, but with joy, right? And I began to like, oh, joy for me feels like a tingling, um, in my hands, a warmth in my body. And then I didn't just leave it there. I think I became intentional in trying to recreate those joy moments. So for me and my daughter, it might be dancing<laugh>, you know, to our favorite song. You know, it might be, you know, going to the beach or whatever it is, but being intentional about rere, cre, creating those moments of joy, even in the midst of great sorrow and great grieve, and another unarmed black man is killed. And my timeline, my newsfeed is filled with all of these images in the midst. All of that being very intentional of creating these moments of joy so my body can counter the rage and grief and all the other emotions that are, you know, in very real valid ways taking up space. And I think the more that we become intentional about that right, locating act whereby, you know what joy feels like, what it is in our body, and I'm very somatic, and there's a reason for that because I think a lot of times we avoid what's happening in our body and it shows up later as disease or as anxiety or as any other thing. And so I think starting there and then building both our, our spiritual practices and our sort of physical practices around retaining, right? More so less reclaiming and more retaining our joy, um, and sustaining it and amplifying it, right? So now that I am intentional about creating joy every day as much as I can, I'm not perfect. I'm still a work in progress,<laugh>, but, you know, um, doing that now I can find ways to amplify it, right? So I can find ways to help my friends or help my family members also to create environments and spaces on, you know, at, at the job. Like if, you know, I'm, if I'm in a workplace, right? Like I can take what I'm doing on a daily basis and amplify it, and now I'm impacting communities going into my church, right? And finding ways to share the ways that I've been intentional about accessing joy, and now communities in collectives are now impacted, right? And it, we've, the thing is it's not new. Like my ancestors been doing this, right? When we, when we talk about movements, and you look at the civil rights movements, you know, it was yes, hard confrontation, but it was also singing and dancing and laughing and, you know, joke telling. And, you know, I do this thing every black history month where I kind of put up in images on social media. Um, I didn't do it this year, but I did it last year of our greatest civil right rights le leaders within the black community, our, you know, black literati, right? Like all of the historical figures, but images of not them on the protest line or them, you know, having the, the, the hard conversation, but them laughing and, um, there's an image of Audrey Lord and she's like, uh, in a canoe and she's just having the best time or, you know, Martin Luther King on the beach, right? Because those things lived alongside the work. And so I think, you know, you know, as, as far as very like tangible practices, I mean, there's things that I do, but I think identifying what joy is for you, what makes you joyful, what that feels like, and then taking like a snap, a mental, you know, spiritual snapshot of that, calling it up when you need it, you know, accessing it when you need it, when especially when things are hard. And then being intentional about recreating that and then amplifying that. Um, are the ways that I think that we can get to the point where joy is a regular, not a scary proposition.<laugh>, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Like if I, if I'm joyful, does that mean that you know, something bad is gonna come? Cause that's, that was my thinking is like if I have too much joy inevitably that the other shoe is going to drop mm-hmm.<affirmative>, right? And something bad is going to happen, and, and what I had to do, what joy requires of us is a relinquishing of control. And that's the faith, right? Like that is the spiritual piece of it. It's like, I am not in control. It something very well could happen, but in this moment, in this very present moment, you know, I can have this joy and I can allow it to fuel me and feed me, feed my soul so that I, the rage and the sorrow doesn't overtake me.
Speaker 1:Hmm. I appreciate you correcting and clarifying the way I phrased the question initially around attempts.
Speaker 3:I did it too. I did it earlier. I said that also.
Speaker 1:So<laugh> Yeah. Atte attempts to take joy and something, something else that is interesting about joy. I'm thinking about this on the fly, but you mentioned earlier that something that, that in conversations around equality, reparations, whatever that looks like mm-hmm.<affirmative>, there's this sense of like, oh, there, you know, there is gonna be loss. Again, not trying to center white folks in the conversation, but it's, that that is something Yeah. But that what you are describing also is that joy is not something that is about this like balances thing that people are talking about balance it, the joy is about the collective and the internal.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and joy is not part of that is not on the scale, right? Right. Um, it joy is something me, my joy does not have to take away from someone else's joy. Right? And so, and I, I think that's sometimes what people think, right? Like I've, I've encountered white people who think that if I am too joyful or if I have too much gratitude or too, or whatever, right? That somehow that means that, that they can't have that saying, right? That my flourishing and my thriving right. Means that they won't thrive. Right? And that's not what I mean when I talked earlier about loss. Right? Right. Um, and so, yeah, no, I think that<laugh>, I think the, the, the power, the, the, the great godly power of joy is that it permeates, if you allow yourself to experience it, it permeates not just you, it's contagious, right? And that, you know, it, it, it'll go to the person next to you, it'll go to the people next to you. It'll permeate everything if we allow it, right? And that's cross racial lines, right? Like, you can't help, I, you know, I've seen moments, um, summer of 2020 reminds me a little bit of this, you know, during the protest where I've seen moments that are cross racial lines, we were seeing a kind of interesting alchemy happening, right? Where, um, joy was transforming not just black and brown folks, but white folks to Latinx folks, you know, Asian. Like we were, we were seeing this, this, this thing that was happening, right? And it was glimpses, it wasn't full out, and we still had a lot of issues. But there were glimpses of that as I looked in the faces of protestors and I saw, you know, um, almost like a spiritual exhaustion, right? That was happening with w the the violence in the, in the brutality and exhaustion at that, but an undercurrent. And that's, I talk in the, um, my book Black Joy about, there's a difference between happiness and joy, right? Like, happiness is like temporary. It is dependent on something external happening, right? I love, if I love roller coasters, I gotta go to the amusement park, get on the rollercoaster. And the fact that I do that, I'm really, really happy cuz I got on the rollercoaster. If I don't go on the rollercoaster, if that external thing doesn't happen, I no longer have happiness about that because it didn't happen. Joy is consistent. Joy can be present even in the midst of great grief and rage, right? And it is it, and if I can tap into it, then it can permeate everything again, across racial lines and, and create whole communities that look very different than maybe they look now.
Speaker 1:Mm. Well, I'm praying for that transformation that, that you just Yeah. That you just described both personally and on a community level. And I'll say that something that really brings me joy is having you on the podcast for this conversation. Uh, it's been a real pleasure. We will be sure to have links to Black Joy as well as your other writings in the show notes so that people can check it out. And Tracy, thank you again so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your time with us.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. It's been a joy talking to you.
Speaker 2:And thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Faith, the Presby podcast. Thank you to Tracy for being with us this week. And of course, we are sending love and prayers and hopefully actions to the people who are victims of gun violence and their families. We love you and we stand with you. We want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review, five stars, hopefully, and write us little something. If you have any questions, send to fake podcast@peaceusa.org and check out our website no matter if fate podcast.com there, find our Spanish and Korean sibling podcast and our listening guide. So check out the website and of course, we will talk to you again next week.