A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Welcome to A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us and it just might be a matter of faith. Whether it be faith in God, faith in others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Office of Faith-Based Investing & Corporate Engagement, the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program, and Unbound: An Interactive Journal on Christian Social Justice for the Presbyterian Church (USA). Submit questions to faithpodcast@pcusa.org. LISTENING GUIDES FOUND IN PODCAST SHOW NOTES.
A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Therapy & Spiritual Care w/ Caro Ibrahim
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This week we catch up and hear about Simon's trip to the Native lands of the US.
Question of the Week:
We hear about declining church membership in the PCUSA but what does that look like? What does that mean?
Special Guest: (17:00)
Caro Ibrahim, Registered Psychotherapist & Canadian Certified Counsellor
Guest Question:
What is psychotherapy? How is it different from other types of therapy or counseling? Why is psychotherapy and healing important for people as individuals and for our society more broadly?
What Does Denominational Decline Look Like?
Just Healing Psychotherapy
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Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Well, hello everyone, and welcome again to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions around faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to send us your question because
Speaker 2If it matters to you and then it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of fate . And I am so happy to see you. Simon. I missed you last week. It was weird talking by myself, <laugh>.
Speaker 1I bet. Although, Lee , I'm sure you had no trouble. I don't mean that in a , in a like a mean way.
Speaker 2No, I, I will talk. I mean, I didn't have any trouble. It was just weird. I just pictured the microphone being a person. I think that's what I did. I didn't talk very long. Oh , that's nice .
Speaker 1Yeah, no, I , I listened to it, so, yeah . No, that's nice and glad to be back with you all and , uh, hope that you all are glad that Lee and I are, are back at it this week. And if you don't want to hear our introductory conversation here, you can always just check this , the , uh, show notes and the description for a timestamp for our conversation with our guest, Carl Ibrahim, who is a , uh, registered psychotherapist. But if you are interested in our conversation, which we hope you are, I gotta tell you, I was not here last week because I was on a travel study seminar, which is one of the many programs that our office, the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program organizes. And I was journeying through the native lands of the Southwest. So we started in Albuquerque and visited a number of Native American Presbyterian churches and some tribes and nations and historical sites, and then made our way to Phoenix. And it was pretty impactful and , uh, pretty informative. I have to say that our Native American churches, they need help. A lot of our churches need help, but in particular, our communities of color and particularly our, you know, our native siblings, they need some help because I learned about the history of some of the things that have happened in this denomination with regards to supporting or not supporting our Native American churches. And they could use some, some support. So I encourage everyone, if you know of a Native American congregation in your community or neighboring communities , uh, I mean, obviously don't just go in there and tell them what they need, because that's reinforcing colonialism, but feel free to reach out and ask how you might be able to assist with the work that they're already doing. Yeah,
Speaker 2I'm glad that, I'm glad that you learned a lot and it was, I know that trip was Yeah. Very meaningful. And the , the programs that the peacemaking program do are wonderful because you actually get to meet people in the communities and know what they're all about and, and learning some stuff that you might not have learned. And yeah, I'll just reiterate, our Native American churches need help and let's just hope they get it. So that's why we're saying it.
Speaker 1Yeah. And even broader, not just churches and Christians, but native peoples in general, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of challenges that they face because of colonialism, because of the seizing of lands, because of the doctrine of discovery. You know, there's a lot. So, yeah .
Speaker 2Which church mandated everyone, the church approved that to happen, everybody. So, right.
Speaker 1And actually the point of this trip was to, it was in response and sort of extension of more recent P C O S, a general assembly policy repudiating, the doctrine of discovery. And so we went to learn about the impact that , that the doctrine of Discovery has had on, on all the Native American communities and nations. So, very grateful for that experience and many thanks to the communities that welcomed us and met with us because they didn't have to.
Speaker 2That's very true. And you know, speaking of the church, we're gonna get a little specific with the P C U S A , but I think this, this applies to all denominations, but we have a question that's kind of based off of an article that's going around <laugh> about the P U S A. And we'll put the link to the article in the show notes for everybody to look at. But it's a website from graphs about religion.com, and it was basically saying that there is a decline in the P C U S A, the Presbyterian Church U S USA in membership. But the question reads, we hear about declining church membership and the peace U S A , but what does that look like? What does that mean? Well, it means a lot <laugh>.
Speaker 1It does, but
Speaker 2Yeah, it means a lot. And it can look a very, I think it can look in a lot of different ways, I think. But you should read the article first before you hear our commentary, I think. But what do you think, Simon?
Speaker 1Well, I think this just reinforces the picture that many of us experience in churches. Not every church, but in a lot of churches, of seeing the pews empty or fewer, you know, just few , for lack of a better word, fewer butts in seats. I mean, it's very apparent, and I think that it's sad, but this just reinforces the reality that we're already seeing. And I'll, I'll put a few, pull a few quotes for folks so that they can get a know exactly a bit more about what we're referencing. Uh, so again, this is from the article. So in 1984, the P C O S A reported 3.1 million members on its roles. The denomination has never posted a growth in membership since its inception, nearly four decades ago. Wow. So we've never grown, we've never had positive growth in membership. According to the most recently released data from 2022. There are 1.14 million members of the P C U S A, that's a 63% decline over a period of 38 years. That's pretty big. The denomination lost a quarter million members between 2013 and 2016 alone. And finally, the P C U S A , this is again, based on projections that this model uses. The P C U S A will have less than 500,000 members by 2040. That's a drop from 3.1 million to 0.5 million in less than 50 years. This model projects, the denomination going to zero sometime before 2050. And the author adds , I don't think that will actually happen. It's very likely that they dissolve by that time or merge with another denomination or splinter into smaller groups. But the clock is ticking and the end is near.
Speaker 2And just to put this into perspective, I am 35. Simon, how old are you?
Speaker 1I'm about to be 30.
Speaker 2You're about to be 30, that's right. So 2050, what is it? It's 2023. That's in 17 years. What will I be 62 or 20
Speaker 1Years ? 27 years to 23 thesis .
Speaker 2I can't do <laugh>, can't do math. Well, how old will I be? Let's see, 35 plus 27 is what I'll be 63.
Speaker 162.
Speaker 262, 63.
Speaker 1Yeah,
Speaker 2Y'all, that is the age. I mean, my parents just turned 65. Like, I will be a Sprite, hopefully, hope to God I'll be a Sprite 65 year old. And this is when this is hap this, this is when this is projected. Now we don't know what's gonna happen, but it does put things into a lot of perspectives that I think, you know, I think, I think it's a good thing to know this. Do you think it's a good thing to know this?
Speaker 1Yeah, I think it's important. I think this information is powerful and it should spur action.
Speaker 2Yeah , I think so too. But I think there are a lot of reasons why, and I think that you can only like, take this data and then like analyze it in a sense of like why this is happening. And, and many things. I think there are a variety of different ways or reasons why it's happening. I mean, the damage the church has done to people like the , the , like the relevance of the church, it kind of has become this, like sometimes it becomes like very internal and it's not kind of like out in the world. Uh , I think the evangelical movement has been such a loud voice that it has kind of dampened the need to be in church and what that kind of means in our lives. And then again, the damage the church has done to people, to native peoples, indigenous peoples, people of color, black people in this country, all those things can be put into that thing. But I also think it is , it , it should be an opportunity for us to reorient how we see church. Is church only about membership? Is it only about getting people into church ? Into church? Is it only about kind of the number game? Which to me, a number game? I'm not, I mean, I can't even add. So it's not my, it's not my forte to lean on, it's the numbers game. But it is helpful to see that like what we are doing right now isn't working. What we are doing right now is just not, it's either not working or it's not relevant. Now I know a lot of spiritual people and they would never kind of even be a part of any survey that's anything about churches or whatever. So that's something else too. But, but yeah, it's not surprising at all. It's kind of surprising to see the, the swoosh, it's like the rollercoaster where you go down really fast. That is the, the interesting part. But it's not surprising at all.
Speaker 1Yeah. I think there's also just a question of not only well do numbers matter, but how are we counting what does membership mean now? Especially in a time before ? Well, during and after the height of the pandemic, when a lot of churches now offer things virtually. And people , some people still choose to attend primarily in a virtual manner. I don't know if folks that are tuning into your worship service every week may be considered members because they're not there physically. They may not even live in the same place as the church is physically located. Their parishioners, for sure, they're faithful to that congregation, but are they members? Right? Or does our idea of membership need to change?
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah. And so , and so I think that's something that we need to be thinking about as well, and how we adapt to that changing time.
Speaker 2Yeah. I don't think people need to be fear . My thing, I don't think people need to be fearful of this, though. Like, this doesn't scare me, I don't think. But I think I have a different mindset of <laugh> , and this is coming from someone who works for this denomination. I think, like I have a different mindset of what church is, and I have a different mindset of being a person who has not been treated well by church. And when something is taken away from you, you don't often hold onto it so much so that your entire life depends on it. But I do think there are people in this world where this is their life and this is something that they hold onto . And this is devastating news to people. And I think that specifically about like, like black churches and churches where they're predominantly people of color, where that is a community that's very tight-knit, that's has a very different context than white congregations in our denomination. I'll say that too. And that might be something to critique of this. I don't know the extensity of the diversity of people polled , but I think that that's something that is also a question we should all be asking ourselves. Does this scare us? And if it does, why? And why? What does that mean? Even our book of order and pe people out there who are not , uh, P C U S A, we have a book of order that kind of tells us what to do in certain ways. You know? And even it says, give God glory. I'm paraphrasing here. Somebody's gonna get me for not getting this right. But basically giving God glory, even if it is in the d demise of the church, even if the church falls, even if it dissolves, we are, we are, our allegiance is to God who loves us and the creator of creation and, and all those things. So even within our own theological framework, things fall. Things that are human made institutions, empires, they eventually fall. And for me, that's not, that's not neither good or bad news, though. I would think that some part of the institution crumbling would be good news for me.
Speaker 1Yeah. I'm not convinced that this should be scary either. I think it's a warning sign about what could happen. But I think it also just invites us into an opportunity and into a season to continue to change and to reform and to accept that if we hold on to things as they are, that's speci specifically why we would go to zero
Speaker 2<laugh>. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 1And so there has to hold onto be hold onto it . Yeah . Right. So there just has to be that acceptance that this is an opportunity for transformation, not only seeing it as loss entirely.
Speaker 2Yeah. My, my biggest thing is in all this, we never talk about the money. Where does the money go when all this happens? And that is a , a great question to, to ask is that churches and institutions hold a lot of money and power. And if this were to happen and if we were on top of it, what is in the conversations about reparations, what are the conversations about where this money is going that all of a sudden is done? That's, that would be an interesting conversation, do you think?
Speaker 1I think it would be, because as we mentioned before, for example, the P C U S A has a very good pension plan. There's money invested, there's endowments. If a lot of our churches folded and our membership got so low, what are we holding onto that money for? And who's holding onto it? Who's in charge of it? Who has power to decide and an authority to decide what to do with it? And then if the denomination ever did completely crash, something has to be done without money. It can't just be sitting there. It also can't just for no reason. And it also shouldn't just become someone spending money. Yeah. There should be a , a purpose for it.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1So I think that is a good question.
Speaker 2If, if y'all are scared by this or if you have any other comments, you should let us know fate podcast at PC u s a.org . Cause I would like to know what y'all think about it. Cause it's, it , it , it kinda lays it out there pretty Bayer , don't you think? <laugh>?
Speaker 1Yeah, it does. It, yeah . It's pretty plain. It's pretty easy to see.
Speaker 2Yeah. Plain and simple. I mean, it even says the outlook is not good. What does it say? The exact words? Very grim <laugh>. So you can take that for what you will, but
Speaker 1Yeah. Well, you know, Lee , you know what also I wish was very simple. What? I wish it was very simple for people to access good healthcare services and particularly mental health services like therapy.
Speaker 2I do too. I do too.
Speaker 1And we are so grateful that in our upcoming guest segment, Carl Ibraheem, a registered psychotherapist in Canada, will be joining us to talk about the healing effects and the importance of therapy, both for individuals as well as our society. So we hope that you enjoin and join
Speaker 2<laugh>.
Speaker 1We hope that you will enjoy our conversation with Kado Ibrahim. Well, we are so excited to be joined on this episode of a matter of Faith at Presby podcast by a very special guest. Joining us is Kado Ibrahim, who is a registered psychotherapist and Canadian certified counselor. We are so excited to be welcoming more Canadian siblings onto the podcast. Kado , thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 3Thank you so much, Simon, for this warm , uh, introduction and very nice to get to , uh, meet you and Lee for sure.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's so great to meet you. And yeah, we'll start off with the question that we have and the question reads, what is psychotherapy? How is it different from other types of therapy or counseling? Why is psychotherapy and healing important for people as individuals and for our soci society more broadly? And those are a lot of questions, but <laugh>, you know, we're here to talk it out. So how would you respond to those?
Speaker 3So I'm gonna start with the first one and , um, and I will , uh, definitely continue to remind me of the rest of it when we get there. So , uh, psychotherapy, so let's start by defining what is psychotherapy? So psychotherapy is , uh, like , uh, a one word that is can like , uh, built off two really words that , uh, their origins are Latin and Greek, so psycho , uh, which unfortunately today is like seen sometimes as a regulatory term, but originally it's , uh, it comes from the, the Latin origin that means soul . So it is, the first part of it is soul and therapy, as most of us know, it's , uh, it's origins are from Latin and Greek as well. And the meaning is healing. So in a way, psychotherapy is the practice of the, the facilitation or , uh, um, um, providing or guiding the healing of the soul. So that is psychotherapy as literally the meaning of the word today as a practice. Psychotherapy is , um, is referred to as talk therapy as well, which means it's the, the healing or the facilitation of the healing without any physical touch or medication, basically. So it's just about this encounter, relational encounter , uh, through conversation in the language we speak. So even when we say talk therapy, it's a bit limiting because psychotherapy can happen beyond the verbal communication, because sometimes that is not the one , uh, um, norm of communication, so to some folks. So it can happen through anything, any encounter, again, away from the physical touch and medication, in my opinion. All of this, like, I'm responsible for those definitions. Yeah. So that's , uh, basically , uh, what psychotherapy is. So what happens through talk, talk is literally , um, as it implies, it's a conversation. It's a , it's an encounter, it's a communication wave, communication that , uh, engages a lot of skills that the therapist hold. So it's about listening, it's about active listening, which means like really taking in, it's not just taking points or highlights, but actually taking in everything the person or the client, the patient is sharing. Um, um, making parallel connections, highlighting maybe , uh, patterns , uh, challenging , uh, some , uh, beliefs, life limiting beliefs, highlighting strengths, all those kinds of things that happen without even a client or a patient observing, but really literally very intentional on the, on the end of the clinician or the therapist. Yeah.
Speaker 2And , and often I think when we talk about therapy and when we talk about a lot of, a lot of those things are counseling and putting all this kind of in like a faith perspective. I know a lot of times people in this type of work , uh, when it comes to the faith realm or when it comes to like, justice work, social workers and things like that, there are many times where this, this conversation isn't very intentional alongside doing that work. It's very hard work. It's, it's very taxing. It brings up a lot of things within us. Mm-hmm . You know, I know for me, doing this work and as a person, when you hear things or when you experience the things specifically now, like what's happening in the us and we talked a little bit about that before we began recording. You know, a lot of things come up in us when we do this type of work. And so I wonder what you might say to like, people who are doing this type of work in these realms, like the importance of therapy and maybe how we, I feel like also it just gets a lot of ba like, it, there's not a good relationship with it because you don't wanna seem like you're not tough enough to withstand it, or you might not need it, or, or it's, it's not a , you're not taking care of yourself. Um, because we, we just have this idea that we shouldn't, we should sacrifice everything of our full selves in this work . So what would you say to people in that realm when it comes to this conversation? Because I know we have a huge conversation about it now in our churches and in our work.
Speaker 3Yeah. And thankfully though, because that definitely wasn't even something that anybody would feel comfortable , uh, sharing as a personal experience or even suggesting in response to , um, to , uh, a congregation , uh, person, like bringing in something that is beyond , uh, a pastors or a minister's , uh, capacity. And it'll feel shameful also to say that that's beyond my means as a minister. So , um, hearing that it's actually happening now and slowly the spiritual or the religious stigma around it is kind of dissolving is really good news. The good news, really. So I, I am also , uh, always surprised by how it, it was for the longest time and still is in so many ways, something that a lot of people don't see aligning with the faith or the, the , the bible or the scripture in that specific context that we're speaking of because , uh, throughout the biblical narrative, it has been established literally throughout the whole narrative that there is always those people in the community that are named healers, and those people are there for counsel . And those people are actually called upon when needed for that specific way of healing. So , uh, in a way, psychotherapy is kind of continuation of that process, especially when it is now in a secular setup . So why would , uh, that structure or that model that was basically built on the community setup before anything else that was called church or , or even Christians then is not seen as just a way of growth the way we grew out of those setups . And we're not wearing the same clothes, for example. We're not eating the same food, we're not worshiping underground. Like there's a lot of things that are changing and we're open for that change and see it as actual blessing. But in this one, we still is not seen as a blessing that gus blessing us with more , more healers that are actually versed in what they are doing. You know, same that we thank God in a lot of ways for our doctors, we pray for, for surgeons before surgeries. Like, it's just, for me, it's just part of it, you know? Um, we all big p big part that comes against , uh, like therapy, as you mentioned, Lee , is like, how can I be a believer who hold Jesus or Christ or the , or God within and trust that, that God is able and go somewhere else? And to that, I also like go back to the, the scripture where it's asserted in so many ways that everyone has their own gifts and their gifts are welcomed in the committee and the church. And we honor those with those gifts. We go to them when we are in need. So why, again, that is not, not seen as another gift that is very gifted to the church in that context and the world at large . You know , uh, what else can I say? The idea that , uh, that uh, uh, what God intends for me will always be the way it is, so nothing will change it. The idea of like, there's no change. God doesn't change, thus God's way don't change when in the biblical narrative as well, there's so many occasions that defies that idea of like, God said something , uh, he, she or they said something and then that changed. And God themselves, like , uh, uh, explicitly states that in so many scriptures, I can't even, I wrote some here, like in, in , um, Maki , Malachi in English, I guess this is how pronounce it numbers, Hebrews exodus, so many occasions that God says a word, intention, even in intention and changes. So what else can I add? The fact that that psychotherapy is based on the healing that happens through the relational part, the encounter isn't that what the whole narrative of the scripture, the whole story of salvation is about, about this personal relationship between God and human, not only as a collective, but also as individuals. And the healing that happens through the relationship that is built on trust and care and love in that context, the biblical context, it's deeply about unconditional love that is not judgmental . You know? And let me ask you both this, like, what, how would you describe , how would you describe or define love outside of romantic love? What would that look like?
Speaker 1I would probably say that that kind of love would involve , uh, trust, commitment , um, intentionality. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , I'm using a lot of, a lot of words. <laugh> . That's great.
Speaker 3Keep going. Yeah .
Speaker 1As well as understanding and a willingness to engage. I think that, and a willingness to listen. I think those are like some of the biggest things in addition to sort of a, if , even if it's not romanticized a just like a deep desire for care be between the individuals involved.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah. I often, often for me, you know, love can be love and within itself can be romanticized, like the concept of it, but it's one of the hardest things to do. So it's mm-hmm . <affirmative> , it takes energy and it, it takes intentionality like Simon was saying. But like, but it's, it takes that because it's hard to do. It's not this like, like romanticized notion of it. And for me it's all , it's also all about authenticity. And that takes like knowing about yourself and learning who you are and kind of standing in that in a way that, you know, can then go out and to , and for other people to kind of invite people to do the same. So I think love is also an invitation for people to be themselves mm-hmm. <affirmative> and to be authentic in it. And I see that not only like in individuals, but also in, you know, the more broader like church or more broader faith entities of like, what does it mean to be authentic in the world? Um, and that in and of itself invites people to do that work too. And so, yeah. Uh , that's, that's a great question because we don't often get asked like, what does love mean to you? Or what does love encompass for you ? So I really appreciate that to , to , to think about it.
Speaker 3And, and thank you so much for just jumping in and reflecting with me because literally everything you've shared, and I bet more for everyone and their own engagement and relationship with love more would come up. But it is basically what you've shared. It's the intentionality of it. It's the, the commitment, it's the, the , the care, it's the presence. It's being there with, with no , uh, really , uh, hidden agenda or , uh, benefits or all of that. And , um, and that's really what care looks like in therapy. Uh , a therapist will be there with all those intentions that are part of how we describe love outside of the romantic aspect. It's scare , it's intentionality, it's commitment, it's um , it's uh , it's an , it's nonjudgmental. It's affirming, it's validating. It's also important because you are not being forced to be in that room with that therapist. So there is a huge healing aspect to being really the one who's choosing that hard work. Because Simon, I think you mentioned it's hard work. It's not something that is easy. So you are the one who's choosing this. So you are not really doing it to punish yourself. You're doing it cuz you wanna walk through maybe trauma, maybe pain, and you wanna come on the other end. You wanna find your alignment in the world. You don't wanna be , uh, walking with fear alone because fear might never go away. And that's okay. You know, fear can , can be there, but let fear not stop you. Let fear be part of your excitement rather than something that blocks you from your potential. And all of that work happens in therapy, especially when you choose a good fit. Because not everyone is at the same place of looking for the same thing. That's why assessing the fit at the beginning is very important, you know, so when you find the good fit, this person, this therapist will walk with you, the journey in support, in affirmation, in validation, in challenges. They will not sugarcoat things for you, but they will do it with care. They will do it with affirmation and they will not do it with guilt, tripping or shaming, which is really the core of a lot of religious trauma, let me say that. Yeah.
Speaker 1I was gonna say, I , uh, on the topic of religious trauma, but also thinking about the importance of love and the relational aspect to what you've described, there are many folks in our, in our world, I particularly think of marginalized folks. I think of members of our, our, our in the community and siblings who probably may have a very difficult relationship with faith and maybe seeking, trying to wrestle with that and navigate that in their life moving forward. And that can be really hard when faith is a core aspect of the challenge to, to your life. But what I'm also hearing is that this love and relationship aspect is not just about your love and relationship with others, or even with sort of like a group. It's also with yourself. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And that sounds really hard, <laugh> , that sounds, but, but it's also can be that much more powerful.
Speaker 3Yeah. And it is hard. The really, there is no promises of easy journeys here. Let's , uh, be frank, this is really hard work and to love and , uh, and validate and , uh, and appreciate and uh, and lift up yourself is so hard when you are someone who did not grow up hearing those affirmations. When, when , uh, when, and I'm gonna use the i in this case when I am someone who did not grow up even , uh, uh, hearing anything that affirms my existence, the core of my existence as a trans , uh, man of color. Like none. And I'm old, so I , maybe I look younger, but I'm in my late forties. So as a kid, there was literally nothing. There was no internet and there wasn't anything on the media. So , um, so there wasn't anything that, just even say that , uh, you can exist as a simplest form. So of course self-love is hard , of course. And they always , uh, and they always invite my clients to this, and they say it's by choice. No one will , uh, will make you do anything. Consent key . And ongoing consent is even more key in, in therapy. So , uh, unfortunately at one point you have to be your parent, the parent. You never had the teacher, you never had the relative, you never had the , the minister you never had. You have to be all of these people for you to engage and ignite healing. You have to be the one that sees everything small, you accomplish and celebrate it. You have to be the one that forgive yourself when you up and excuse my language, but it's true. This is how it feels. You know, when, when , uh, when you're expecting that high of yourself and your God is not expecting anything of you other than being because your being is perfect. That's what the , what, what the Bible tells us. You are created perfectly and wonderfully made . You are made wonderfully and perfectly made. You are called by name before you were even , uh, born, before you were even an idea in your parents' mind. So nothing, nothing more than that. You need to be, you know, so if you haven't grown up hearing this, you need to be the one that, that start cultivating that for yourself. It sucks, cuz why would I have to do some other people's work, especially the people that actually brought me to this world. Absolutely. It sucks and you can have all the feelings about it, and yet you're the only one who can actually work on it . No one else can. You know?
Speaker 2And and a lot of my journey was the same way. Like, I was very resentful about it. All that, you know, growing up a person in the south, having to like, do all that for myself, it has made me a very sick and I'm learning. I mean, I went through a lot of therapy , um, in college and then coming outta college and, and still go ever so often if I need to. But like, there was a lot of resentment within myself because I had to do all of it, and I had to figure it all out, and I had to pay for it all. And like here in the US it's not very affordable. And so it's, there's also those dynamics that I think are often at play here, like the capitalism within and like insurance and like all these things that we just get so bogged down on in order to do that work for ourselves. And it's also the most marginalized folk who need this type of work and need this type of care. Whereas, especially here, like it's not very affordable. And so it's mm-hmm . <affirmative> , it's almost all of these things that come into intersecting with it. And, and then you take the aspect of being a person of faith and having religious trauma . But I also see on the other side of it , kind of , when you work in this type of work, you give all of yourself and you don't think that you have to give yourself something. It's funny because we just got done with a , a work thing, and there are so many times where people were invited to share personal things and talk about themselves, but often the , when they were invited to do that, they talked about their work, they talked about the issue mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And so I just noticed throughout that time, like how we've had, how oftentimes this environment we kind of , we cover up the ourselves and we deny ourselves so much that we can't even talk about ourself. And I think sometimes that guilt is there, but yeah, I wonder about that experience too, of, of, we just, we, we put all of ourselves into the work for others and to the point to where we can't even like talk about, about ourselves , um mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And that to me is, it's kind of sad in a way.
Speaker 3It is , it is very sad. And I'm gonna say that, and also bluntly , uh, this is what we learn in churches grow up, that it's not really about you, it's about everyone else. You can be selfish in that way. You can be proud of your accomplishments. You can show that pride because that's like the biggest sin, you know? So where's the surprise, the sad as it is Lee ? Absolutely. Also, I'm gonna really take the , the responsibility, the biggest responsibility from on our shoulders as individuals, because how would they speak a language I didn't learn if all I learned growing up is hearing that, that, you know, you can't be selfish if you have something you have to give , uh, the other person. You have to split not not counting for the, the context of that person. That that kind of obligation is put on someone who comes from nothing, have nothing, maybe like, got this piece of food after a week of not eating. He , he ca they cannot show up to church and be asked to give half of that. That's not godly. And I , I'm gonna say that because the God I know is the God that actually engages everything equitably, not equally, but equitably. The God that would not move and like , uh, you know, throw things in the temple for those who has that much privilege and power and walk all those smiles to grab a lamb, their lamb. That's, there's no equ uh , uh, equality in that. It's pure equity. So why, why, why? And the why is huge and it comes with pain. Why do churches until today , uh, uh, uh, sees everyone as equal, where we are not equal? And that's okay. That's totally okay. But the expectation, putting that on, on people in the church under the name of God is really setting people for failure, for guilt, for shame, for , uh, for running, running, running, and never feeling that they can reach anything. So of course this is the , the way we would speak. If we're invited, we'll definitely speak about others. We'll never speak about ourselves because that's not godly. That's not how a good Christian should be. So let's reclaim that. Let's reclaim that, that's ours to do. Yeah.
Speaker 1And kind of building off of that, thinking about sort of the latter part of the original question, which was about why psychotherapy and healing is important for people individually, but also collectively as a society.
Speaker 3Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1<affirmative>, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the connection between those two because I think it's very easy to only see therapy as something that is individual. It's just me, or it's just you and it's not gonna have some kind of effect more broadly. But I I'm not entirely convinced that that's actually true. So I wanted to get your perspective on that.
Speaker 3I certainly second you. So let's start with that affirmation that it's you a hundred percent , uh, on the right track, Simon. And , um, and , uh, let's think of it this way, in that image , um, I will not be able to walk from point A to point B as a child until I start learning how to walk. So therapy or individual therapy before even like group therapy or family therapy, individual therapy in that sense is those first steps of learning to walk. So you can actually walk too and start engaging and start building those connections. I will not be able to , uh, to ask for what I need until I learn that language of really identifying my needs. And without identifying my needs, I will never get what I'm asking for. And I'm talking about even bigger relationships and family and friendships and workplaces. If I don't know how to express my needs, I will never get what I need and I will just keep building frustration on my end and resentment in , or maybe the other end because they are frustrated with me as well, because I keep getting upset, but I'm not really saying what I want. And isn't that most of the , uh, highlights of conflict in relationships, whatever relationship you name it. It's also about the , the disconnect. I want people to read my mind, and when they don't, I'm frustrated, you know, and they are frustrated because they really maybe want to support and engage, but how can they engage without me sharing what I need? You know? Um , assuming I say one word and then what I say is read differently without me checking in of how it's received and without, for example, you asking me, did you mean this or not? Huge conflict. Huge conflict and disconnect, even without the , without making it a conflict, like a , a disagreement, it just disconnect or disconnected. So therapy is the beginning of that connection. I'm learning the language of connecting with myself first and with others. This is, this is not like a theory and I don't like even speaking in an academic way, it's really about like how we talk and how we connect. You know, I can't sit at home wishing to be friends with a person without approaching them. How to approach them, how to find that language is therapy. Because to approach a friendship, I need to know myself to actually start inviting knowledge of this new person that I'm inviting to my circle. If I don't know myself in a, in a way and shape or form, that is clear to me as much as I'm able, because it's never gonna be clear, like perfection, right? But as much as I'm able, I'm not really able to even identify who of those folks around me can align with me and my values, my interests, this, this and that, to start even building friendships. You know? So by all means, it's the beginning of building connections. And again, back to the biblical narrative. And it's all about relations. It's all about relations and how we build relations, for sure .
Speaker 2Yeah. And, and it's often, I, I wonder about that language and about that connection and that co and that communication. And, and I see it often, you know, we, we moved to DC not that long ago, and it's really hard as an adult to like make friends because <laugh> , I got so much like as an adult, you, you kind of grow up and you lose, you kind of shed all these like childish things that really do kind of, we shouldn't be like the vulnerability and kind of the , the you , you're not hindered by just kind of jumping in and, and doing that kind of work and not, and the need to like always be perfect is not really there. And, and I often see that in the work that we do too is , is like this communication thing and the way we relate to folk and relate to each other. There is a sense , and, and Jesus, I mean that's why Jesus interacted with kids very well, I think is because like they, kids will just say and learn and fail and, and kind of, and do the things they need to do just, just to have those kind of experiences. But I often see it in the work that we do, like commun the , the relatedness and the language and the communication is often either so corporate or it's inauthentic to where you're just trying to like pitch a , pitch an idea or sell a program or like even evangelism, you're just trying to sell your faith in a way mm-hmm . <affirmative> mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And , and often it's so like that relatedness and the connection, it just kind of brought that up when you were talking about how we relate and the language we all share together mm-hmm . <affirmative> mm-hmm . <affirmative> is that just kind of brought that all up. So it that , that's very helpful for me to think about.
Speaker 3Yeah. Yeah . And, and thank you for highlighting that as well, like the kind of the performance aspect of it. Mm . And how there is so much pressure to perform in a certain way in order to be received and, and belong. Right. Because that's also something that we grow up learning early on, that you need to behave literally. That's, these are the words that I use . You need to behave in certain places in order for you to be invited back. And in order for, for people to say good stuff about you and what is really behavioral , like what's, what's that normalcy of behaving no one like, like it's very subjective. Like again, it's all about the person's ability , uh, how, how who they are. You know, like neurodiverse folks are always before like identifying that , that, that there is diversion, there is difference. They are like pushed as ch children pushed and really , uh, like cornered into a box of like behaving, which is just behaving normalcy or what is deemed as normalcy . So , uh, uh, absolutely. Like especially as adults, when you're approaching friendships in this day and time, there is a huge fear about how would I be perceived? Are they gonna think I'm hitting on them? Right? That's a big deal. And I hear that from a lot of folks. Uh, well, maybe I'm married so I'm safe. No, not really. Because now really in a , in a time where everything is uh, uh, uh, invited to the table, which is great. Like you can be married and in an open relationship, you can be in , uh, in a triad, you can be in more than that. You can be someone who's just exploring you can be anything. So there is a lot of fears of about, about approaching anybody with friendship. So friendship requests literally outside of social media became highly , uh, uh, uh, sketchy <laugh> in a way, and questionable and really suspicion as if you haven't hidden agenda. This is just like your , uh, your one liner to get in . So like the invitation is just let's own it. What if you got misunderstood? What evil someone thought? You're really hitting on them, but you're seeking friendship. Just keep affirming what you're seeking. Be so clear. And this is where the language comes in. Key understanding myself and my needs really wanna be friends upfront as, as dorky as that sounds, this is where I'm at. If you're in, let's try together. If you're not, thank you so much. We're gonna stay acquaintances. No offense, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. I love that. Affirm. Affirm what you keep seeking. I really love that. I need that like on a <laugh> on like a sign right here. Oh . Cause that's very, very helpful. Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Well, I think also I was, I've been thinking about workspaces and organizations and is it, is that kind of healing that you're talking about, can that environment be fostered within an organization? I have a feeling it can be, it's just really, really hard. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . But as you just said, if we are affirming what we are seeking along, like along the way, that's a really, that's one way that we can do that. Be like, these are the kinds of behaviors, these are the kinds of values that mm-hmm . <affirmative> we want to cultivate here, and this is how we're gonna practice it. So when we see it, we're going to affirm it. That's a really good way. Cause I think often we're just pointing fingers at things that we don't like.
Speaker 3Yep .
Speaker 1And then we're stuck in a cycle of sort of anger, negativity, toxicity, whatever it may be. So , absolutely. Yeah . Absolutely.
Speaker 3Yeah, absolutely Simon. And that's why leadership is key. You know , uh, let's really , uh, not dismiss power and power dynamics and systemic power in workplaces, right? So if anybody is able to do that from safety, it's leadership. If , uh, if leadership is failing to do it, that does not mean that me as an employee somewhere cannot do it too. It just means that it will have to do it in a very strategic way, in a very balanced way where I don't put myself at risk because it's , uh, it's easy for me to sit here and say, oh, you can do it. Go do it. And I'm not the person who really putting my wellbeing money and food on my table for my, my kids or my family at risk, right? So everyone is able, i I I do not believe that no one don't have the capability to identify and stand up for themselves. How you do it is key. But you, I I will not accept hearing. I can't because , uh, that definitely kind of dismisses the power and goodness and the ability that you're created with. You are able, you are able in whatever way, shape or form, in whatever size, in , in whatever moment, it's never a blank slate. All or none. Never, never. That's not what we even learned from the biblical narrative. It's never , uh, one template fits all. Never. So you can, if you can't speak up and go to your, your boss and say, I , uh, this, this happened in the , in , uh, from my , uh, from my supervisor, and I did not feel good. I felt like this was condescending, this was dismissive. You can actually go and say, maybe , uh, I wanna engage in that way. As you were saying, Simon, instead of pointing fingers, maybe it's not safe to put someone on the spot and say, this person did this to me, but maybe you can go and say, you know what? I've been feeling that there isn't enough affirmation. There isn't enough , uh, highlights of our accomplishments as a team, and it's impacting us. It's impacting me. So how can we engage that? How can we bring more affirmation? How can we actually like listen to how our pitches even in the business before shutting it down so everyone can do that. Eh , again, you'll be scared, the first time you do it, and that's okay, as long as that fear does not stop you. That's okay.
Speaker 2Well, well this has been, we might have to have you back <laugh>,
Speaker 3<laugh> . I would love to thank you for that
Speaker 2<laugh> , because this is, you know, it's very helpful because, and the type of the , and I mean, any type of work really, you know, it takes both of that. Like, it takes the individual work and really doing that work that reflects obviously how you're gonna relate to other people. And, and I hope that more, and I hope that more people will take this seriously because it is, I mean, therapy saved my life, I will say. And, and that is just a fact. And I think that for many of us who are in communities to where we have to be, that be all of those entities for ourselves , um, it, it is very lifesaving. And so, you know, I hope that it can become more accessible. And, and this is just a point of curiosity, what is the accessibility of therapy like in Canada? Because I don't think many people know that information. I think that would be really helpful. I always think it's helpful to know the different context another way. And so , um, I just wonder about that before we end. What is, what is it like in Canada for the accessibility to therapy?
Speaker 3So , uh, psychotherapy is not that accessible either here because it's not covered by healthcare . Mm-hmm . <affirmative>. It's also if , um, if my , um, licensors like myself is registered psychotherapist and not a social worker who practice , say , who's practicing psychotherapy, then it's not only that I charge a fee, but also I am obliged by , um, by , um, by the government I guess to charge , uh, taxes on top of that. So it makes this really, it makes it really like , uh, unaccessible because taxes vary from like 4% to up to , uh, 13% a amongst the provinces, right? It depends which provinces province you're in. So if you are employed, you might have insurance. So if you have insurance, your insurance also can pick and choose which , uh, licensing, not licensing, but credentials of therapists, they will cover. So not all pro , not all insurance companies maybe will cover an rp , some would cover an rp . Most will cover social workers. Um, what else can I say? Um , even if you have insurance, your insurance, most likely if you are like having a great insurance, might cover five sessions because psychotherapy is also expensive, not as expensive in the states, but definitely is not , uh, some something that you afford. If you are making three K a month on your own, that's not even, so imagine someone on social assistance or disability assistance, almost impossible. And then they are un , unless they are under like the, the control of an organization that will allow them to have like maybe six sessions for a specific , uh, something to talk about, which will never go deeper into like the trauma or the pain that actually creates, that's kind of manifestation of depression or an anxiety. How can we engage or heal an anxiety and depression without changing the context and expect from people to actually to respond? That's again, setting someone for failure to even promise them that, you know, so it's not accessible and, and that's why , uh, working from a social justice lens for myself is very important to have a lot of financial accessibility as much as a one person practice is able to accommodate, you know, so in my practice, I have pay what you can and there is guidelines for that to be equitable. And there is a sliding scale also with, with guidelines in relation to income. I will never ask how much you're making. I will never ask for approval of income. I trust that the collective take care of each other. Any , any person can go on the website, locate themself where they are at and tell me, this is where I belong and this is where I would love for my fees to be. So I have limited slots of course, because I need to keep operating, but I keep pushing it as much as I'm able. So in a way, I make it so clear that every person's contribution to their own therapy is not just impacting them, it's impacting someone's access to therapy. So this is really the collective part that at least in that small , uh, uh, environment, in that small , uh, organizing of a , of a , of a practice, I have control over. I can't fix the world and I can do my part and all of us can, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. Well thank you for thank you for that. Uh, and you're an example for other people maybe to Yeah. Take on that, that model.
Speaker 3And a lot of folks are doing this really, so it's not even Yeah . You know, like it's amazing that a lot of folks now are putting their politics into action. So there is a lot of folks that are doing this, which I am very proud to share that it's a collective in so many ways. Yeah,
Speaker 1That's really encouraging. And we'll be sure to put a link in the show notes to your website so folks can take a look and learn more about psychotherapy as well as , um, for our listeners in Canada, if they want , are interested and they can get your contact information as well. As I realize again, you said you have limited slots, but at least to be able to help share about your work. Uh, we are happy to have that information available. And thank you again so much for being with us on the podcast.
Speaker 3Thank you so much, Simon. Thanks Lee . It's really has been a pleasure to meet you and get to actually have this conversation.
Speaker 2Well, thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Faith , the Presby podcast. And we also wanna remind each of you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review. It really does help the podcast a lot, especially five stars. And if you have any questions for us, send 'em the fake podcast@peaceusa.org. Visit our website a matter of fake podcast.com. There you'll find our Spanish speaking podcast and our Korean speaking podcast now. And of course, we will talk to you again, as always next week.