A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

The World Needs International Ecumenism w/ Ryan Smith

• Simon Doong and Lee Catoe • Season 1 • Episode 137

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Special Guest:
Dr. Ryan D. Smith, Programme Executive for the Ecumenical Office to the United Nations & Representative to UN Headquarters, World Council of Churches

Guest Question:
What are faith communities doing at the international level to affect change on issues such as violence, peace, security and gender justice around the world?

Ecumenical Office to the United Nations of the World Council of Churches

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Speaker 1:

Well, hello everyone, and welcome again to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions around faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and let us know your questions. Why should they do that, Lee ?

Speaker 2:

Because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it most definitely will probably be a matter of faith. Hey, Simon, you're on vacation, <laugh> .

Speaker 1:

Hey, Lee , you are on vacation today. This is a matter, I know, a matter of vacation, y'all.

Speaker 2:

It is a matter of vacation. We are both, technically as you're hearing us, we are. Simon will be on the beach. I hopeful . Hopefully we'll be looking at Wales off the coast of Vancouver, and yes, we will not. We're, we're not really here, but we are. It's a weird world.

Speaker 1:

Yep . And also the beauty of pre-production.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the beauty of pre-production, y'all. This is just how things work. Me and Simon, we've been talking for two and a half years, <laugh>, and yes, we've been on vacation, but this time we're really on vacation. And so the , the next few episodes will be a little bit different. There'll be shorter episodes with our guests. We'll always have guests and, and all that, but you'll just hear less from us. So yeah, we hope you take time for a vacation too sometimes .

Speaker 1:

But, you know, who I think does a lot of great work and probably doesn't take vacations as often as they should, is the folks that are doing work in the international community and speaking of the international community, joining us on this episode as our guest is Dr. Ryan D. Smith, the program executive for the ecumenical office to the United Nations and representative to the UN headquarters for the World Council of Churches. So we hope that you enjoy this conversation with Ryan about addressing major justice issues in our world at the international level. We are so excited to be joined on this episode of a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast by a very special guest. Joining us is Dr. Ryan D. Smith, who is the program executive for the Ecumenical office to the United Nations and representative to the UN headquarters for the World Council of Churches. Ryan , thanks so much for being with us on the podcast.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for having me. Yeah , Ryan, it's good to see you. And we have a question to start us off on our conversation, and the question reads, what are faith communities doing at the international level to affect change on issues such as violence, peace, security, and gender justice around the world? And so how would you respond to that question?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of a how much time do we have <laugh> ? Um , but , uh, uh, you know, I'll start quickly. Uh , the ecumenical office to the United Nations is a joint office of the World Council of Churches and ACT Alliance. So Act, ACT Alliance serves as an international , uh, development organization, whereas the World Council of Churches is the fellowship of Christian churches , uh, worldwide. So the World Council of Churches is in more than 120 countries, representing about 580 million Christians and 352 member churches. I I was joking with you all a little earlier to say that I think about 500 people of those 580 million know that we exist, but together , uh, the World Council of Churches and Act Alliance form our office at the United Nations. And so we, we approach the work a little bit differently, and that's why we have the joint office together for the World Council of Churches on issues such as violence, peace, and security. The World Council of Churches has been in invited by both member churches and by governments to serve in the role of helping peace dialogue. So for instance, the Government of Columbia has invited the World Council of Churches as a partner in the Peace Dialogue and the ongoing peace negotiations for the peace process in Columbia . Our work in the United Nations is based mostly around the United Nations Security Council. Um, so we have meetings with UN Security Council ambassadors off the record meetings so that we can freely share information that our member churches are giving to us, and then also freely hear feedback from governments on what is working well in political negotiations, what, what they need advocacy or support on, and, and we can push the work there. The World Council of Churches also , uh, sits on the Advisory Council for the special representative of the Secretary General on genocide prevention. Um, and so we work with her office identifying areas where genocide could or may, may happen , um, or is happening. And so we sit as an advisor there. We also sit with what's called the Multi-Faith Advisory Council of the United Nations. So the Multi-Faith Advisory Council partners with I , and I, I know this is un technical, so forgive me already , um, but partners with the Inter-Agency Task Force on Religion and Sustainable Development at the un. So it's a , it's a , a place where the faith community meets with UN agencies on the ways that the faith community can best engage with the UN system on , uh, on issues of faith, peace, and sustainable development. And so those, those are some of the places that , uh, that were active. The World Council of Churches on Gender Justice. We have our Thursdays in Black campaigns. So Thursdays in Black is a campaign, a global campaign where , um, we ask members , um, and , uh, and members of members , uh, uh, folks around the world to wear black on Thursdays, to stand up against , um, intimate partner violence. And so our Thursdays in Black campaign has, has been a real game changer to raise awareness on gender justice, and especially to eliminate violence against women and girls worldwide. We, we also participate with ecumenical women as well as the commission on the status of women bringing in delegates from around the world to be able to witness to the UN system on what is , uh, what is most pressing for them regarding the issue. Um, the, the theme of the commission on the status of women changes every year. And so we try to bring experts on the individual theme each year from the World Council of Churches membership, and the P C U S A is a member of the World Council of Churches. I should , uh, be clear about that. So as, as we're doing our work, when I left , uh, representing the Presbyterian Church, u s A at the un, I said, I'm not going far. I literally went two floors in the building , uh, that I was in , um, from my Presbyterian office to the World Council of Churches' office. But also it's still , uh, you know, I'm still very much Presbyterian and still very much working with my faith community. And so I get to work with the Presbyterian Ministry at the UN quite a bit on doing a lot of this advocacy work.

Speaker 2:

Like we said, a lot of people may not even know that this exists, but I got to experience the assembly that the World Council of Churches has. And that happens, what, every 10 years?

Speaker 3:

Every 7, 7, 8 years . Um , we were a little years , we were a little late this this time because of Covid, but , uh, about every seven years we have a , a global assembly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And what was amazing about it, and we can talk about this a little bit, was seeing all these traditions within the Christian faith within the church, I mean, ranging from, you know, the P C U S A all the way up to Orthodox and everywhere else, like all over the place, and seeing like a group of people in this ecumenical movement coming together, talking about issues that I think is really powerful. That, for me was very life changing. And so I just wonder about the , like, about that process and about those dynamics and how you see kind of the ecumenical movement and, and where it sits in the world. Because I know we had that conversation a lot during the assembly, like the power of the ecumenical movement. And so I just wanted us to talk a little bit about that. Like, how do you see that in our world today and like the need for it even more? Because, you know, we see a lot of things happening in faith communities, not even just in this country, but I mean all over the world. But yeah, I wonder what you would say to that.

Speaker 3:

So I think, you know, I, I love working for the World Council of Churches because it's really , uh, the way I see it is the World Council of Churches is in many ways the United Nations of church world, and frankly, the World Council of Churches has been around around longer than the United Nations itself. So, so we predate , um, this unity , um, this global unity to even the United Nations system. So, so the W C C , our main goals are visible unity in faith, and to promote common witness for mission and evangelism, to engage in Christian service and to foster renewal and unity, worship, mission and service. And so those are our four main goals for the World Council of Churches. And for me, it's, it , the W C C is, is a place where people can come together. We, you know, un unlike the Presbyterian system where we use Robert's rules of order as our, as our model, the World Council of Churches uses what's called the consensus decision making model. Now, consensus doesn't mean that everybody absolutely 100% agrees with absolutely everything, but rather it's that we find together a place where we can all be. And to me, that's a really, sometimes , uh, the, the Presbyterian in me just says, let's do an up down vote, you know, like, let's get this done. But the the consensus model, I, I have really grown to love because while it might not be the most , uh, the outcomes might not be quite as pointed as they would be with a , you know, up, down vote or something like that. The outcomes are, are shared by the community as a whole. And so I think that's a place that the W C C really demonstrates to the world. You know, when we were in Germany for our assembly, the , the German government asked us, asked the World Council of Churches to disinvite the Russian Orthodox Church from , uh, from the assembly. And we said, no, we will not. They are a member of ours. And there have been discussions, even to say in our own, in our own fellowship to say, should the, the Russian Orthodox be expelled from the World Council of Churches? And the decision has always been no, because we recognize that people of faith are coming to issues and decisions based on the knowledge that they have. And the , the value that the World Council of Churches brings as a global round table for Christians is that we can hear all of the sides. We can hear everything. And together through that consensus decision making , make decisions that the global ecumenical community can stand behind. So, you know, in the West we hear the shrinking space of church, church power, right? But that's not the case in, in the global south, for instance. And so while, you know, while we see decline in church membership in some places, the World Council of Churches is seeing a growth in church , uh, membership in other places. And so it's a really unique place to be and to stand and to be able to bring all of those voices together, you know, voices of churches realizing decline right now, but voices of churches realizing significant growth and, and voices of churches who have different relationships with the governments where their churches sit. And so all of that together I think makes the work that much more interesting, that much more valuable. And, and that's why I really value that consensus model, you know, because it really finds the place where together the global Christian community can speak.

Speaker 1:

Lee and I have talked a lot about declining church membership, especially in the last couple, couple episodes. It is kind of a , a common theme that, that comes up on the podcast, but something I'm realizing that I never asked in terms of questions is, where is their growth? Where is there a more, a more upward trajectory? And the only place that we've sort of focused on is what we sort of know to be more of the, the evangelical communities here in, in the States. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's really refreshing and it's good to, to remember that there are so many more faith communities that are outside of the bounds of the United States. And it's encouraging to hear, as you said, the global South. It's like, oh yeah, that is a completely different context that is very easy to forget about because we get so sucked into our own world, if that makes sense. Whether it's P C U S A United States or whatever else. And something else that you said that I think is really important and that I appreciate is this sort of , um, navigating between the different faith communities that are members of the World Council of Churches. I can only imagine the the amount of intentionality that is required in those discussions when trying to decide on, say, a , a policy or a decision. And I'm wondering if you mentioned Robert's rules of order versus sort of consensus, how you've seen the sort of the spirit move folks when they're trying to decide on something really big and something really important, whether it's membership of a faith community, or what are we going to advocate for in the international community more broadly on this particular, on a , on a particular justice issue, as we've said before, peace, security, gender. How have you seen those, some of those conversations play out , uh, within the W c c ?

Speaker 3:

Big question with a lot of parts, but I , uh, so I'll start with saying , um, evangelical, the way that we use it in the United States , um, has different meanings in different places of the world. And , uh, you know, here in the US the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America would probably not be part of that group that, that you would label as evangelical, but it's, it's very clearly part of their identity and their name . So, so evangelicalism is, is something , um, that, that is part of the Christian community, but how you define evangelical is, is really varied across different spaces in different places. And so I think, you know, I think the growth of churches, yes, we've seen it in the evangelical movement, the, the kind of traditional movement that we know here in the us. Uh , but that movement is also working across, across the globe. But the, the evangelical movement more broadly, you know, the, the, the faith community more broadly, you know, we're seeing massive growth in new membership of new church, new church memberships from places like Sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America right now that wouldn't necessarily fit into that US model evangelical definition. And so I think, you know, even, even as church , as we use these words in these names, they, they mean different things to different places in , to different people in different places. And so I, I think for me, that's, that's been a , a learning growing curve since I left, you know, the P C S A, not, not that I've left the P C S A, I'm still part of the P C S A, but since I left working for the P C S A into this global movement, seeing that evangelical movement is something that, that we can see , uh, as positive for the global Christian movement in terms of bringing folks together. You know, when we, at our general assembly, or at the World Council of Churches central committee, we usually have what's called the Public Issues committee, which is a committee that, that brings forward statements on current and, and modern public issues. And in that committee there is the variety of church membership . So, you know, on when we were looking at Israel Palestine, we had members of German churches and members of churches from Palestine who, who really disagree on certain issue areas or, or certain words or ways that we say things. But the outcome that we come up with is a place where both, both churches, you know, both, both groups can, can come together and work together. You know, we saw the same thing , um, with our, our work on our statement on Ukraine at , uh, at the, the World Council of Churches General Assembly, because we had members of the Russian Orthodox Church there, but we also had members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Now there, now in that discussion, there were certainly not a hundred percent agreement on issues, but the statements that we were able to come together on, what we were able to stand firm on as our Christian witness together, I think speak very strongly so that it's not, you know, one side or another. Are we, are we progressive or are we conservative? Are we this, are we, that the, the consensus model really finds that middle road where, where we can together come, come as Christians and say, this, this is our witness and this is our witness to the world. And I think that's, that's one of the real strengths that the W C C brings to the global community. I, I think, you know, and I see that in the UN system, you know, which side are you on on this security council debate? Are you with, are you with this side or that side? Are you with the G 77 or are you with the eu? You know, the W C C through our consensus model, we, we don't say we're on this side or that side. We say, this is what we think God calls us to do. And, and it's through that consensus that, that we find the middle road. And frankly, I, I actually think the UN would be a lot better off if we try to cons consent . I mean, I, I just can only imagine a consensus model at the un, you know, eliminate the veto and go for consensus model. What would security council resolutions look like if, if there was a consensus model rather than, rather than veto power, for instance. And I think, I think the W C C is a global witness for that, and I, I , I'm really proud to be part of that movement.

Speaker 2:

It was, it was fascinating to witness <laugh> as someone who was very new to the W C c , to , to like be there and kind of see it as like an, like an outsider kind of thing, just to see how it works. And it really did, and I don't know if I would classify it as the middle road, but a more nuanced road, I think, because

Speaker 3:

I think that's better language

Speaker 2:

You learned . You learned about, you know, how different contexts in different cultures, different places in the world may define diff Like you were just saying, like defining different words, like the, the , the language we have here in the US about certain topics does not translate. I mean, it's not like a, like it's a universal language. And I think that really does test like this American-centric way that we even do religion or we even like try to define everything. It's like, no, that doesn't necessarily work. Even in Europe, it doesn't even work. This , like, it doesn't even work there. Like, it's not a , it's not as easy as we like come into be. And it was really fascinating to see the American contingencies that went into the space and the posture that Americans often take, I think, and how in some ways they were very humbled by it. I think for me, that was one of the things that I really enjoyed seeing was that, you know, the I and, and colonialism was a big topic at this assembly. And I think those conversations and how those were happening, you know, I think were very productive and, and how they kind of postured themselves. So it was really fascinating to see a space that kind of held tension. There was a lot of tense moments, there was a lot of tense moments there, but how that space held those tensions in ways that I don't necessarily think if it was just us in the US having these things, we would've handled it as well as that assembly held it. And for me, that was one of the things that stood out to me the most. I was like, like holding tension and having hard conversations seems to be the thing that this body is good at doing. And that for me is like an example of where we kind of all should be, would you say?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I, I couldn't agree more. And that's, that's why I really love working with the World Council of Churches. I, I, I've said this since I worked for the P C U S A, but I stand by this statement, and Simon has heard me say this a lot, but I miss the part of the Bible where Jesus said, go and talk amongst yourselves. And I don't believe our faith is made or calls us to sit in rooms and talk amongst ourselves, but rather to be a witness to the world. And I, I think that's a real value that the World Council of Churches brings to the global Christian community. Um, we, you know, we had Religions for Peace there. We had the Catholic Church and the Catholic hierarchy there, but we also had our members there, you know, and it was through that dialogue that, that we, we came to the decisions that we did. And, and so I really, I really don't believe in a Jesus that says, go and talk amongst yourselves. And I think the World Council of Churches doesn't believe that at all either. Um, and, and I might be speaking too much for the W C C as a whole there, but I, I really think the W C C as kind of the Christian melting pot, if you will, I is a real value to a humanism, to the ecumenical community, to the , the Christian witness worldwide. And I think that's, that's what gives the W C C the power that it has. That's why governments come to us and say, we know you can handle tense conversations. We, we trust you to be part of Peace Dialogues because we see how you do it. And, and I think there, there's real value in that for, for the world.

Speaker 1:

When you read out the , uh, sorry, was it three or four goals? Four goals for the W four goals? Yeah. Something that I was thinking about was, you know, there isn't anything in here about we are going to do this work on this issue. What there was, or what there is in those goals is a commitment to intentionality, to witness, obviously sharing the gospel, but as you said, being together, because

Speaker 3:

Unity is one of the, the primary words or, or foci for the W C c , it , it is Christian unity that, that we work towards,

Speaker 1:

Right? And with the , with the understanding that in unity there is still diversity. And I think that that's something that in justice movement and justice oriented work sometimes, like, we all know this, and I'm gonna steal something from you, Ryan, that you shared with me at one point , um, which was that if you wanna go , uh, fast go alone, if you wanna go far, we go together type of deal, and we can't go together unless we are able to have a conversation about it, whatever it is.

Speaker 3:

Well, and I, I stole that, that's an African proverb, so Oh , fair enough. You can steal it from me, but I stole it from, from folks in Africa. So, you know, to let , let's name names

Speaker 1:

<laugh>. Oh yeah, fair enough. Yeah. Give credit where credit is due. I appreciate that. But it's like the, the purpose is in the witness and in the conversation, in the being and then the work, the what are we doing will come because we are able to do that together, which is something that even in the, in a more specific church context, sometimes I think we lose sight of that. It's like , no, what are we doing and how are we doing it? Or as you said, oh, which side are we on? As opposed to saying, no, no , no, let's not think about sides. Let's just think about who we are and have that conversation about what that means. We'll find the answer. It might take a little while, but we'll find it. Well , and there's something really beautiful to that .

Speaker 3:

I think that's really, you know, the , I'm just thinking of like the parable of loaves and fishes, right? And, and there are different interpretations of that, but one of my favorite interpretations of that is it wasn't that Jesus magically like snapped his fingers and there was more loaves and fishes, but rather as some shared more began to share and as, as the community shared together, they could feed the whole . And , and I, I think of that, you know, in our Christian witness, the more we come together, the more we work together for this common witness, this unity in faith, the the better off we can be. You know, my, my doctor of ministry looked at , uh, the intersection between the faith community and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are very person-centered or very, I , me, me, me and the faith community has in its best days, in , in its best ways been about community, us, us, us. And so what are the tensions between Secular Eye and Christian we, and how do we then bring those together? And I think that's, that's where places like the World Council of Churches really shine to, to bring the diversity of community together, to talk about the Christian witness of we.

Speaker 2:

And I don't wanna romanticize it any, cuz it is hard and I often think sometimes when we hear like, you know, unity and, and all these things, they tend to be very romanticized and like, obviously it is the goal, but I mean, even in the Assembly, I just, I mean, it's hard. Like, I mean, there were times where I had to step out because there were certain topics that hit me personally. Sure. And so I think that there are, you know, like this work is not ever easy and so I just wanted to make sure that like , like we're , we're talking about it, but like, it is hard work. I mean, there were a lot of things that were at that assembly that were, it was hard to hear when it came to Ukraine and when it came to Russia and then human sexuality was a big report that went up and, and talk about different language that is used <laugh> everywhere. Like that's a whole different ballgame. So I mean, it is hard work and I think that that for me is also a kind of testament to it all because it's also how we hold each other in those spaces. And I , that's where I was very grateful for a lot of the people that I was surrounded by with because it does take that too, because it is hard. And I had that conversation a lot while I was there. It's like unity in a space that we, we tend to wanna romanticize it, but I think if we do keep it real and we keep it like this is hard work to do, it was very tense and it was very hard. But I think that's also in a way the how it should be. I mean, nobody said this was easy and I don't know, and I know like a lot of people have theologized our faith into for it to be easy. And I think that happens on the most conservative, and it happens on the most progressive sides of it. How do we simplify it? But if you, if y'all ever get to go to this thing <laugh> cause the or experience anything that the World Council of Churches does, you will see that that is not realistic. That is not the real world in how things happen . And I think that's another thing that hit me was that I didn't know, I would find it so profound how hard it was to kind of, to , it was a beautiful thing to be a part of, but it was also difficult , um, all at the same time. And I think that's just how this is. I mean, that's how scripture is. Scripture's not all roses and rainbows. It's hard. And I think doing that with dignity though, is what I saw too in that space. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

W when I interviewed for the Presbyterian church, u s a to be the representative to the un, they asked me a question and they said, your your job is going to be to represent the decisions and the policies of the church. What, what will you do? How will you handle it if and when you disagree with one of those policies? And I was, I was 24 at the time when I was , uh, interviewing with the P C U S A and i, I was a little young and cocky. And I said, I said, listen, I said, if you find a faith community where you agree with absolutely everything, I truly believe you're the crazy person who started a cult. Uh , you know, you , you started your own faith. So if, if you believe everything, the faith is what you believe it , it's not, it's not being part of a faith community. Now we all have lines in the sand and everybody has their own lines in the sand. There are some things, you know, I I have them, I have them myself, and there are some things that I could, I could probably never witness for no matter how much money or, or or pressure was given to me. I would have to say, this is my line in the sand. I I have to leave now. But I think finding the community where you can hold that tension and believe that the tension provides for a greater good. Um, I think that's what I have found in the World Council of Churches. And do, do my personal beliefs , uh, agree with every single policy of the World Council of Churches. No, but do my personal beliefs agree with every policy that the Presbyterian church u s a has? Heck no. You know, and so I, I think that's what we're called to do as people of faith is to come together. You know, again, Jesus didn't tell , say, go and talk amongst yourselves. Go and talk amongst the people who agree with you. Jesus called us into community. And that's, that's where we're called to be. And it's not always easy, but thank God it's not always easy because I tell you what, you learn a lot more , um, when you're challenged and your beliefs are challenged and, and what you think are challenged by brilliant people. What, what I love to say is my favorite thing at the World Council of Churches is I love being the dumbest person in the room because it's you, you hear, you hear debate, you hear , uh, you hear things that challenge you, you hear things that challenge maybe your core beliefs. You challenge things that be your belief in what Eucharist e even is, you know, or what the Trinity looks like or how we name God. And those are not easy questions. And , um, but thank God, you know, there are places that exist that we can have those hard conversations. And that's, that's why I love this work so much. Well ,

Speaker 1:

Ryan, we are so grateful to have had this time with you on the podcast and to hear about the work of the World Council of Churches and also just the, the international faith witness of the faith community at the un. And more broadly, we'll be sure to have a link in the show notes to , uh, the World Council of Churches as well as the, the ecumenical office , uh, to the UN for the W ccc so folks can check that out. And just wanna say thank you so much for being with us on the podcast.

Speaker 3:

Well, thank you. And it's, it's been a lot of fun. And I, I miss you guys. I miss my P C S A family.

Speaker 2:

Well, thanks everyone for listening to this episode of our matter of Fate, the Presby podcast. We hope you enjoyed our conversation this week. We hope you subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review, preferably five stars, and leave us a little note. We would love to hear from you. If you have any questions, send 'em to Fate podcast@peaceusa.org. Check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com. There you will find all the episodes and our Spanish and Korean sibling podcast. You'll also find our listening guides and advocacy watch. So check out the website and again, we will talk to you next week.