Native American Churches w/ Martha Sadongei

Special Guest:
Rev. Martha Sadongei, Pastor of Central Presbyterian Church, Phoenix, AZ & Consultant to Presbytery of Grand Canyon for NA Ministries for the Southern Churches

Guest Question:
What are the experiences of our Native American churches? What kind of support do Native churches need within our denomination? Also, in terms of spiritual practice and belief and practices, is there a blending of traditional Native spiritual practices and more traditional Presbyterian practices? Or does this vary depending on the person or congregation? 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Well, hello everyone, and welcome again to a matter of Faith, the Prezi podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and send us your questions. Why should they do that, Lee ?

Speaker 2: 0:16

Because Simon, if it matters to you, you who are writing questions, then it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of fate , and it probably will be. And Simon, if you could see into the future, what are you doing on vacation? <laugh>?

Speaker 1: 0:34

I'm either on a boat, I'm on the beach, or I'm asleep.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Same, I'm probably not on a boat, but I will be hiking and looking at the nature, looking at God's creation. And that's probably what I'm doing this week. But just to remind everyone, Simon and I, we love you, but we are also on vacation. And so this week our episode is not gonna feature us much, but it is gonna feature a wonderful guest.

Speaker 1: 1:05

Yeah. And actually it's, it's kind of interesting. This episode that you're listening to now has come out just after July 4th, or also known as the 4th of July, which in the United States, we say this Independence Day. But we're gonna interrogate some of that, that history in the United States a little more closely, particularly going back to things like colonization, because we're gonna be talking about the experiences of Native Americans, and particularly our Native American churches. And joining us for a wonderful conversation is the Reverend Martha Suge , who is the pastor of Central Presbyterian Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and she's also consultant to the presbytery of Grand Canyon for Native American ministries for the southern churches. So we hope that you enjoy the conversation with Martha. Well, joining us on this episode of a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast is a very special guest. Joining us is Reverend Martha Sadye , the pastor of Central Presbyterian Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and consultant to the presbytery of Grand Canyon for Native American Ministries, particularly for the Southern churches. Martha, thank you so much for being with us.

Speaker 3: 2:22

Glad to be here.

Speaker 2: 2:24

Yeah, Martha, it is, it is a blessing to meet you and for you to be in, be on the podcast with us. This is wonderful. And we'll just start off with the question, and then we'll just see where the spirit takes us. So what are the experiences of our Native American churches? What kind of support does Native American churches need within our denomination? Also, in terms of spiritual practice and belief, is there a blending of traditional native spiritual practices and more traditional Presbyterian practices, or does this vary depending on congregations? And so we are grateful that you are here to respond to that question.

Speaker 3: 3:12

Sure. Uh , first part of that question is what are the experiences of our native brothers and sisters in our churches? And that in my work and in my travels, I've learned that it varies from community to community. The experiences are, are positive, some are negative, some are are angry , um, and some are just, just joyful. And being able to gather as God's people. A lot of it stems, I believe, from the shift that was made when our native churches no longer came under the Board of Missions and were just turned over to the auspices of the presbyteries in which they were or were settled or were were located at. And unfortunately, some of that that was missed was the training and the education that normally pastors would do. No longer was there any elder or deacon training, no longer was there Sunday school experiences. Um, they depended a lot upon outside sources to come in to do vacation Bible schools for them. And you'd have, and, and some locations, you could have Bible school all summer long with all the different mission groups coming through, offering Bible, you know, the weekly Bible vacation Bible school time period. So it, you know, a a lot was lost in that transition because I don't believe the larger church did much to help presbyteries, which in turn could then help our local congregations. And much was missed in that. There was a time when our, when we all, all our native churches had pastors. So there was a time when there were programs, there were active programs, there were music programs , uh, there were the elders and deacons trainings that took place. And, you know, some of our older, older elders, a lot of them have already gone on now and have journeyed home, but they knew that book of order better than anybody else I've ever met because they had that training. And unfortunately, they didn't think they knew enough in order to change and train the next generation come up. So a lot of our presbyterianism was lost also in that transition. And it became a matter of just our lay leaders doing the best they could with the knowledge that they had in just keeping the church alive. Um, and so we lost some of that and became like the church down the road in our tribal communities to try to get more people in, not necessarily doing any of the training or even the preaching and the theology of Presbyterianism. And much was lost that way. And I think that for many of our native churches, that has been the experience for most of them. I think another struggle that we have had over the years was that , uh, blending of how can you be Christian and how can you be native in in your practices, you know , uh, from from me, even growing up in the Presbyterian church, third generation Presbyterian , um, I never heard anything from our pulpits that said it's okay to identify as a Native American. And I never heard from the pulpit that there are similarities. Like we understood as native people hospitality, we understood stewardship, we understood reaching out, we understood what community was about. But you never heard that. I never heard that from the pulpit. And so it was always a matter of either you're Christian or you're native, and you had to make that choice. I think nowadays, as there are more native pastors serving our churches and even some of our lay uh , lay pastors , um, have a better understanding that, you know, the two can walk side by side , um, and still acknowledge our traditional ways as gifts from God who created us, who gave us songs, who gave us dances, who gave us understandings of the creation around us, and how they can walk side by side with our Christian understanding of creation and stewardship and taking care of what we have been given as God's people. It's been a challenge because there have been some of the older members who are very strict in their beliefs that say it has to be one or the other. And some , uh, we've lost some of our younger members because they've had to struggle with making that choice. And yet, within our tribal communities, there's the push now in our schools on the reservation to teach language, to teach culture, to bring that all back into play, so that we do not lose that as, as our tribal communities. And yet the church still struggles with that issue of whether you can be Christian and whether you can practice traditional ways.

Speaker 1: 9:45

That's really , uh, that's so powerful. And I should clarify for our audience that I, I met Martha as , uh, I was part of a travel study seminar through my office, the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program to the native lands of the Southwest in which we started in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and then visited a number of our Native American churches , um, all the way to Phoenix and Arizona. And it was an eye-opening experience. And something that Martha has highlighted that I think is so, so important is that this ch this concept that you have to choose and maybe recognizing that maybe you don't have to choose, maybe, maybe the, the power is in recognizing what choices you have, but also when you don't have to make a choice, if that makes sense. Especially on this podcast that we've talked about issues of , um, of white supremacy and, and racial hierarchy that you don't always have to choose even if someone sort of is trying to put you into a box. And what you said, Martha also really resonated with myself , um, though it's a little bit different, but as a, as a multiracial Asian American , um, who is Chinese American and also white Caucasian, sometimes it feels like, oh, you , you feel this pull between identities, like, oh, you have to be this, or you have to be that. Or if I embrace this element of this part of my identity or this part of my culture, then I can't embrace these other things. And the fact is that each of us will actually choose to embrace various aspects in different ways, and that that's okay. Um, but that, that's also a journey for each of us. And I'm curious for yourself how you have navigated that in your own life and in your own faith journey?

Speaker 3: 11:31

Um, I really have to give a lot of credit to my mother. My mother , uh, who is thrown no odd , them meaning desert people, formerly known as the Papagos from Southern Arizona. She wanted to become a Christian educator, and she did do three years , uh, at Dubuque University, but ran outta money to finish her schooling there. But I think it was that education that she received at Dubuque, it was pivotal and how she raised her children because she never, she , she would give us choices that we would have to make, but it also helped us in our critical thinking of, do we want a full glass of milk or do we want half a glass of milk? And what that ended up becoming was being able to understand who we were as her children, recognizing that we were thono autum . And yet my father's tribe was chia from southwest Oklahoma from the plains. So for her, she had to learn about the Chis and the chia ways of doing things by asking the rest of the family when we'd go back in Oklahoma to Oklahoma about how things were done , what stories were told, so that she raised her children in knowing both cultures and the differences within both cultures. And yet she also taught us how we needed to be on time dress appropriately, because that's the white world. So we grew up within three worlds, the white world, the tum world, and the chia world. And we knew our stories. So at night , uh, our stories that she would read to us or tell us would either be thrown the autum stories and legends, or they would be chia stories and legends, or they would be stories from , um, our children's Bible that she would read to us. So all three were just a natural part of who we were growing up, so that we did not have to make that choice for us because it's just who we were and who we would become. And so that has carried me through a lot in my faith journey because I've never felt I had to give up anything. And I'm very grateful, and I always say this and acknowledge my professors at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary, who encouraged me to not regurgitate what they were talking and lecturing about, but to use my native lenses in response to some of the assignments so that I was writing it through my native perspective and not necessarily a white perspective that the theology or whatever class was given or the languages in Hebrew or in Greek, but interpret it in , in how I see it with my experiences that way. And so with their help, it really became very solid for me as to who I was and what I was called to do. So that nowadays, if I find a scripture that we can relate to in general terms as native people, I will address that in my sermon on Sunday mornings so that the young people can hear it from the pulpit that, which I did not hear, that it's okay to dance, it's okay to sing our traditional songs. It's okay to speak those languages, to know those creation stories, to know why coyote got the color of his fur , because that is all a part of God's gifts to us as native people. And I think that experience with my mother really brought me to this point of , of being able to be a native pastor to a native church that is intertribal that doesn't all have the same creation stories, but we know creation stories in our own communities.

Speaker 2: 16:32

Yeah. It's a real, it's a real testament to, to the power that the divine or however we define God, it is the power of, of that, that force in our world. And to have that experience that you, that you had and the what the, the things that your mother instilled within your family is a , is a very, it , it's , when I hear it, I hear it as resistance to, to white, to to this thing. We all are calling white supremacy and colonization. To me it's a very resistant story of, of the things and then some ways the things that the church kind of perpetuated or mm-hmm . <affirmative> did perpetuate as it pertains to our native siblings. And that is something that is for, for our denomination and for the church in general, a a story that, that for me kind of shows that these evil forces that try to suppress and oppress are, are continually to be combated and resisted through family, through tradition, through who God made us to be. And so those are just things whenever you were talking about that it is who we are and who God created us to be, to resist that evil in a way. And, and that to me is a , is the beauty of how we interact with the divine, I think. And

Speaker 3: 18:10

I , oh , by all means. And I think, you know, another example of that is on my father's side, the chia side. There's the, the oldest dance that we have as chia people is the gore dance. And it's held, there's a Gord clan society that holds their dances every July 2nd, third, and fourth. Um, has nothing to do with independence day, trust me. But it has everything to do with the calendar and the sun , because that time of year is when traditionally the Chis would have their Sundance , but when that was outlawed and that could dance could no longer take place, they went back to the next oldest dance, which was the Gore dance. So every July 2nd, third, and fourth, Kai has come from all over , uh, to Carnegie, Oklahoma to participate in these dances, which are very spiritual. They're healing songs, they're powerful songs. And I remember one time going back , uh, with my cousin, and we had gone to church that Sunday morning, and , uh, there was a , a native pastor there, and he offered communion and was glad to be there. It was at the rainy mountain, Iowa Indian Baptist Church. And it's not a southern Baptist church. It's an American Baptist church. And , um, so we had communion. And then that afternoon we went to the dance grounds to, for the start of the gore dances. And to hear the strong singing taking place to see all the men and their gours, and to hear them shake and to hear and feel the cool breeze. You , you , I just got the shivers. And it's that same kind of shivers that I get when I know it's a spirit that's moving within me. And my cousin even felt it. And she leaned over to me and she said, boy, can you feel the spirit? I said, you can. I said, and the spirit is so thick. I said, and it is the same spirit that was at the table this morning when we took communion. And then she said, look, and she pointed out into the arena, and there was the pastor dancing in his regalia for the gore dance. And I said to her, see, this is what it's about. There is no choice. It's one and the same spirit. It moves us to feel it here in this place with these songs, with the powerful singing of the men and the powerful dancing that is going on. It's one and the same for us as native people.

Speaker 1: 21:10

That's something I would love to be present for. It just , I can, I can feel the spirit sort of emanating from you over this zoom call right now as you're describing it. Uh , something I wanted to touch on that you had mentioned was this , uh, shift from Native American churches being sort of organized and supported from more of a denominational entity being the, it was the, it was the general, general mission . Was it the general mission board?

Speaker 3: 21:40

Yeah, something like that mm-hmm .

Speaker 1: 21:42

<affirmative> back , back, back, yeah . Back in the back then . Yeah. Yeah. So essentially a more institutional entity and then sort of being, for a lack of better word, if I dare say it, dumped to the local churches without any kind of support and just how terrible that that is. And not only to not do it without, to make that adjustment without any support, I'm also assuming that that was done without consultation from the very people that that decision would affect the most, I'm assuming. Um Oh ,

Speaker 3: 22:14

Oh , yeah. I mean, consultation with the native constituency really didn't take place until like in the 1970s when they finally established the Native American Consulting Committee. Got it. But , but prior to that, you know, all the decisions for us were made by, you know, the boards that be , whether it was at , uh, on Riverside or whether it's in Louisville. Mm-hmm . Even now, some decisions are still made for us.

Speaker 1: 22:44

Right, right. And as that relates to what you were saying about , uh, people feeling like they have to choose between Christian or native culture or spirituality, it's interesting because it's not like even if someone was to choose entirely, I guess, a more white western Christian spirituality, that would not change the fact that your congregation was still , uh, dealt this hand by people, by an by, you know, by forces outside of your own control. And sort of just the , I'm just seeing all of these levels of, levels of barriers and levels of challenge. And I'm curious what you would say to folks coming into your church now, how do you walk alongside them as they're thinking about their own spirituality? I know you mentioned what you preach from the pulpit, but like, if someone to come to you and talks to you about that kind of a question, how do you walk alongside them in that journey? And then also as a pastor yourself of a congregation, what , what would you like to see, whether it's the denomination or us as fellow Presbyterians , um, something that we could do to, to support our native churches?

Speaker 3: 23:54

Well, I think, and I , I, you know, quite honestly, I've had several conversations with , uh, uh, individuals , um, about, about, you know, whether they can do things traditionally or not. And they, you know, thankfully they feel comfortable enough with me that they can come up and ask , um, and not worry that I'm gonna judge them if they're gonna go that route or not. And I think what, what I find myself doing in order to walk alongside them is, is just being able to hear and listen to their concerns. And then I always tell them, you know, beforehand, that, you know, this is your decision. It's not mine, but here's what I believe. And I always encourage them, you can disagree with me, and that's okay. You know, everybody has their own ways of thinking and believing. And if that's, if you don't feel comfortable with that, that's fine with me. But at least you know, let me listen to your concerns, share your concerns about it. Let me address what I believe about those concerns. And whether they're real concerns or things that really do need to be considered carefully, or whether it's, no, that's, that's just a crazy way of thinking, but you're not crazy. But it's like, because I, I've had some questions of, you know, having daughters participate in their coming out ceremonies and whether that's appropriate , um, as Christian a family to do that and to participate. And it's, it's like, but that's, that's a part of the tribal community's ways, and that's acknowledging that this, this, this little girl is now becoming a young woman. So that's enough acknowledgement. I said they had their traditional ways, even in, in the Bible, they had their ways and processes. It's not anything different really from what scripture might say, but there's, you know, and, and so there's no right or wrong answer to those questions, but it's a matter of you making that decision and you feeling comfortable in your own skin and making that decision. So many of 'em will go and, and do those traditional things and then come back and tell me, gosh, that was so good. I felt so good. And I didn't feel like I was betraying God or turning my back against God, but I was able to recognize God in the midst of it. And I think, you know, that's exactly what I want you to feel, is to realize that God comes to us in so many different ways, and not just one way, but be aware of it, even as native people, God comes to us as creator, as sustainer , um, and we can find them in, in all our situations, if we just look and not always keeping it to just in the church building or the sanctuary is the only place we can find God .

Speaker 2: 27:20

It's that constant because of how, how it was in this country and, and how missionary theology has happened. It's, it's really, it's, its really poignant to, to, to hear and to see. And we've had many of these conversations about the generational trauma that that has , uh, instilled in a generation of folk when people are trying to erase culture and people are trying to make people assimilate into what is a western white thing that they're trying to just take over this entire country. And, and to hear those stories about even the interior trauma that goes on, even asking yours a asking ours , asking yourself as a native person to even worry about even expressing who you are because it conflicts with something that is along , has been taught and still is taught. I think it just shows that there's, there's also sometimes we don't often talk about the joy in those moments. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> the joy and the, the liberation of those moments. And I wonder about like how you see that even more to kind of like to see the joy in it, to to be who you are. Cuz we don't often talk about that. We often talk about, and rightfully so, but the joy in the spaces in which you are and, and how you've experienced that for yourself , um, because we don't often talk about that either, is whenever you're yourself and that joy that comes out in those moments.

Speaker 3: 29:08

Yeah. No, you know, I, I tell you, I'll tell you quite honestly, I am a spirit driven reactive person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if the spirit moves me on the whim of something, so be it. Right? I mean, I think on , on Sunday we, we had just finished the last hymn, which was, you know, I danced in the morning and a , a favorite of all of us, and we danced and we were happy and we were joyful. And um, and I told them, I said, cuz I, I use a cane up sometimes. And so I had my cane. I said, you know, if I had a top hat, I would dance my way down off of this chance area because I am so joyful. And everybody laughed , but it was a joyful laugh and you could feel the joy that was there in just that little whim of a moment. And I thought, oh darn, if only I had brought my mickey mouse ears that I had just gotten the day before, that would've been perfect to put on at that moment and dance off the channel , if you will. But I think that's where I find, and I think it's true with a lot of natives, because humor is such a big part of who we are. We love to laugh, we love to tease each other. And I always tell non-natives, if a native teases you, then you are in, because we don't tease non-natives easily. But if we like you and we trust you, boy we will tease you to death. And boy, we'll have fun teasing. You're doing it too. But it's a joyful tease. It's not a meaningful kind of teasing. And I think that's the spirit life that I think dwells without within us as native people to find that, to find the humor in the day, even in the midst of sadness and the trauma that we deal with. It's, it's the joy of gathering and, and being able to see each other and to laugh and to, to tease one another. Um, I know Simon, I think you probably saw that amongst me and Erin and Karina with our little panel of teasing each other back and forth up there, you know, as pastors, we're not supposed to have favorites, but they're my two favorite people. And <laugh> , we just, I just love them to death and I know they love me to death too. And we, so there's that constant playfulness, but there's all that playfulness that's within that congregation I serve. And I think part of it is the fact that I'm not afraid to laugh with them and I'm not afraid to laugh at myself. And so we have a more laid back, but yet a very, as, as Erin would call it, we're a very high church Presbyterian when it comes to our services, but you'd never know that just because of that feeling of the joyful laughter and making mistakes and oops, we got that one. Let's try that again. So , um, those kind of things that take place. And I think that's, for me, that's where the joyfulness comes. And for us, as I think our native churches, that's how we survive as well. Even through all the shifts and the changes and, and the feeling like we don't belong in this church. Um, we get through that because we have each other, we have the humor and that humor is spirit driven

Speaker 2: 33:02

And that, and that is, you know, joy is always that thing that that does get you, that does get you through a lot of stuff. And for me, being a part of, of this denomination, there's a lot of things that I have a problem with with our denomination and I've always been very honest about that.

Speaker 3: 33:25

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Speaker 2: 33:26

And I know a little bit of the history about our native churches and we just kind of talked about that. And it is a sad thing that a denomination that says what it says about, we are here to love our neighbor and support those who are marginalized. And sometimes those words are not often backed with action. And I think that just needs to be said. And that is the part that is sad as well, that this is something that we, as a denomination, we perpetuated this trauma and this generational trauma in many ways in our history. And to see the way in which it's played out is a very sad thing. Um, that I think we should be really speaking up about it more. Those of us who are a part of leadership within this denomination and to hear talking about the joy and the spirit moving, you could have the biggest church that is funded probably by a lot of national things because of money, because of power and the joy that comes from communities like you are in. You often don't see that in those communities. And I think that that is a testament to a lot of things that we need to wrestle with as a denomination. And that's just <laugh> . That's just kind of how it is. I think.

Speaker 3: 35:00

I know, and it's really sad when you consider since about 2000 how many overtures have gone through GA regarding Native American ministries and proposed outcomes. And yet we have not seen one bit of action from any of those from the original task force that presented their report, I think back in the 2004 , um, to just the recent ones , um, that were up in in Portland. Nothing's come of it. And that's really sad that nobody is pushing to say what happened happened. Again, it's another one of those overtures that just we do, it feels good, swept under the rug, we forget about it.

Speaker 2: 35:45

Yeah. And, and so I hope that, you know, whoever may be listening, that we do take this a lot more serious than we have because in my opinion, we are, we have no choice but to do this, to be supportive and to provide whatever is needed. And yeah, it needs to be said more time than once. And we always talk about policy on this , uh, podcast words can create action, but they're also just words and it's really easy to let words just sit there.

Speaker 3: 36:22

Right. Well, and I think that's, you know, one of the big, big issues for us as native churches too is equity and pay. Um, there is no, I mean, I'm part-time, we can't afford to put a pension in. So all these years of being part-time, but nothing for retirement. So I'm gonna work until I <laugh> can no longer work anymore. But the reality is, is even then part-time, it's still a struggle , a struggle for us to make sure I get paid. Mm . Or our native churches , uh, so many of them are not filled with either a lay pastor or even ordained clergy because there is no monies to pay for them. And yet you have the larger churches , um, where our little church could easily fit inside some of these buildings. Um , where even within this presbytery that we've often gone to and have said, wow, wouldn't we like to have this? No, not really. We'll take our little small building anytime , but we sure could use the finances that would go with this nice big church to help pay for salaries. And unfortunately because of that inability for our churches to pave even for part-time salary, tent makers even, it , it , in all honesty, I don't encourage people native p that I'm , uh, that really good be good pastors to go into the ministry business because financially you're better off keeping your day job. And yet if we had some kind of a system that could assist, cuz it's not just aro a native issue, it's the rural churches too that face that same problem of, of , of lack of pastoral , uh, leadership because of , uh, an ability to afford a pastor. There's something wrong with, with a denomination that lets those little churches go by the way and concentrate on the big mega churches instead. Yeah . What does that say? And where are priorities now?

Speaker 1: 38:50

I think what you've also illuminated is that there are so many processes that people think are working and they never were working to begin with <laugh> . And that those need to be changed. And what I also , and also Amy , that goes even to the ga to ga, it's like, oh, if you bring something to the highest level of where policy can be made, then the action comes. But as you and Leah both said, clearly the follow through in execution hasn't been there. And so that's something for us to, to be thinking about as Presbyterians and members of this denomination and as people of faith is, if someone is going to be able to put something on a docket and say, and everyone votes on it and says, and it says, okay, yeah , we need to help these people, we need to do this, and then it just doesn't happen. What does that say about us?

Speaker 3: 39:47

Yeah, right,

Speaker 2: 39:49

Right. Because that's a a lot <laugh>.

Speaker 3: 39:51

Yeah ,

Speaker 2: 39:52

It says a lot. It says that we elevate the written word because it's easy, it's easy to write that I can write that in two seconds. I'll write here on my computer. I can say, let's go and support native churches and fund them as we should because we should be doing this because we did this to native communities. You can write that in a paragraph in about five minutes. It's very easy to do that. But to actually do it and to, to follow through, that's the hard part. But getting it passed through ga it makes you feel good. And I think in many ways we have relied as a denomination and other denominations do this too. You get something that's passed and you have that instant feeling of, oh, I've done something good. Look at us, we've done something great. And in reality, nobody in the real world even knows what you passed. I I always say, I can't go out here and pull somebody off the street and say, what is a Presbyterian? They don't know. They don't know that. What do you believe? They don't know. And so it is all about what we do really, that really does create impact and not necessarily what we write and not even necessarily what we say. It's , uh, it is something that we have a huge problem with in this church.

Speaker 1: 41:17

Well, it also, it also makes me wonder about, again, I think this just shows to show the, the impact of, of white supremacy where it's like, oh, certain groups of people are able, certain actions are taken for certain people and not for, for certain communities and maybe not for others. And if we are believing in a God that is just, and also loves all, then we should be supporting everyone. And we can't be letting these, these recommendations that about supporting our native , uh, American churches just go by the wayside. So yeah, it's , uh, it's a call to action and we hope that our audience will, will listen to that and be also be keeping a lookout , uh, next year for next year's general assembly and for what's on the docket and also for what was on the previ , what was passed at the previous general assembly and requires , uh, follow up to make sure that something actually happened. Yeah . But Martha, we are so grateful to have had you on the podcast and to have been blessed with this really rich conversation. I just wanted to ask if there was anything else you'd like to add , um, about whether it's about Native American churches, spirituality, your own experience or anything like that for our, for our listeners.

Speaker 3: 42:35

Um, well, you know, talking about, you know, action and the follow up and words. I can't help. I think of my grandfather, my ham grandfather when I went off to college and I asked him, I said, how will I know the good people to hang out when I have no idea who these people are where I'm going? And he said, well, don't, don't be too quick to be and be part of a group or something. He said, but you just sit back for a couple of days and watch them. Watch what they do, watch what they say he said, because anybody can say anything about themselves, but it's what they do that will tell you the kind of person that they are. What kind of denomination are we that says all these good things but then doesn't do 'em ?

Speaker 2: 43:38

And Martha, it was a true blessing to have you on this podcast and to meet you. And hopefully one day I will get to meet you in person like Simon was blessed to do. Uh , but thank you for being on this podcast with us and having this conversation with us today. Glad

Speaker 3: 44:00

It worked out. Glad I could be here. I hope somebody learned something.

Speaker 2: 44:06

Well, thanks everyone for listening to this episode of our matter of Fate, the Presby podcast. We hope you enjoyed our conversation this week. We hope you subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review, preferably five stars, and leave us a little note. We would love to hear from you. If you have any questions, send 'em to Faith podcast@peaceusa.org. Check out our website a matter of faith podcast.com. There you will find all the episodes and our Spanish and Korean sibling podcast. You'll also find our listening guides and advocacy watch. So check out the website and again, we will talk to you next week.