Question of the Week:
I hear about people saying that they don't want to go to Florida because of the politics of the leaders there. We've heard before about calls to boycott or to divest from specific companies or not give attention to problematic people. But does just "refusing to engage" with someone actually work?
Special Guest: (26:36)
Rev. Dr. Anna Carter Florence, Peter Marshall Professor of Preaching at Columbia Theological Seminary and Author of A is for Alabaster: 52 Reflections on the Stories of Scripture
Guest Question:
How do we approach scripture in ways that are relevant to our current context? Also, It seems like we always hear the same stories in church. How do we include more narratives from scripture?
A is for Alabaster
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Question of the Week:
I hear about people saying that they don't want to go to Florida because of the politics of the leaders there. We've heard before about calls to boycott or to divest from specific companies or not give attention to problematic people. But does just "refusing to engage" with someone actually work?
Special Guest: (26:36)
Rev. Dr. Anna Carter Florence, Peter Marshall Professor of Preaching at Columbia Theological Seminary and Author of A is for Alabaster: 52 Reflections on the Stories of Scripture
Guest Question:
How do we approach scripture in ways that are relevant to our current context? Also, It seems like we always hear the same stories in church. How do we include more narratives from scripture?
A is for Alabaster
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Well, hello everyone, and welcome again to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast. A podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and send us your question because,
Speaker 2:Because if it matters to you, then it will matter to us, and it just might be a matter of faith. And hello everyone. Hey Simon.
Speaker 1:Hey Lee . Good to see you. Good to hear from you and good to be with our wonderful audience today. But a wonderful audience, if you don't care about us, that's okay. You can just skip to the timestamp in the show notes and , uh, be able to enjoy the conversation with our guest for this episode. But we hope you'll wanna stick around for our introductory segment in which we talk about the news and an introductory question. And speaking of introductions, I have to say that , uh, I have been introduced this week to something that I did not realize I needed in my life.
Speaker 2:What was that ? You know what that is? What was that?
Speaker 1:Flavored licorice.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't know about that.
Speaker 1:Because I've, you know, everyone grows up with Yeah, everyone grows up with like twizzlerss, right? And people know black licorice. Yeah . I don't like black licorice, but I was at this grocery store the other day and they have a, like a candy bin section and they had blue, orange and green licorice. I gotta tell you. It was great. I don't know what I've been doing my whole life.
Speaker 2:I don't even know. Yeah. I don't even know how to process that. 'cause I , at , at some point it's not licorice anymore.
Speaker 1:Right. You know what I mean ? I mean , it's , it's, yeah. I mean, it probably is something entirely different, but man, it hit the spot. And it's nice because, you know, a lot of candies are chocolate based . This one, just being something totally different is really nice. I will also say that I really like Twizzlerss, but these flavored ones, ugh . Wonderful.
Speaker 2:Yeah , wonderful. I haven't had like, candy candy in a long time. I've never been like a candy person. But, but yeah. That sounds interesting. But if you're an expert in licorice, is it still licorice? Let us know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Let us know. A matter of licorice, please.
Speaker 2:<laugh> indeed.
Speaker 1:Please do. But yeah, Lee , how are you doing?
Speaker 2:I am doing well. I am kind of tired, but it's all good. It's just really hot and I don't really like it. And there's just a lot of things happening in the news that it's kind of overwhelming these days. I mean, we, we just got a notification that Ade O'Connor died, which is wild. Uh , she wasn't that old. And it was kind of an influential music artist for me. Um, which may be surprising for people. But, so that happened. And then all the things that are happening in Israel and Palestine , uh, we just wanted to mention that, just to keep an eye out on what's happening in Israel because the government has severely limited the power, the judiciary in Israel, which means that many of the, many of the decisions of the Israeli government cannot be challenged by the judiciary courts. And this government in particular is very right wing . So when it comes to, especially when it comes to the rights and the occupation of land , uh, of Palestinian people, it's not good. And I think that that is a conversation we all need to have and we all need to kind of keep in the front of our Yeah. Of our conversations. Because it is very scary and it's scary for our siblings in Israel. Israelis and Palestinians are obviously not happy about this. So I think it's a , it's, it's a story that we all need to, to kind of keep our eye on. 'cause things are gonna get worse. So yeah. A lot of things are happening in the world.
Speaker 1:Yep . A lot of things happening .
Speaker 2:I'm just kind of feeling it
Speaker 1:Happening . Yeah, no, fair enough. And this is in totally a totally different aspect of the world. And I wanna preface that I'm not bringing this up simply because it's someone who's fairly famous. But , uh, the week that this episode's being recorded and the week that this is coming out , uh, Bronny James, who is the son of LeBron James, who is just about to start his freshman year at the University of Southern California, U S c , um, collapsed during a practice of cardiac arrest. And I've, I haven't, I honestly don't know the exact reasons yet. Not all details are being shared. That's okay. Respect people's privacy. I've heard rumors about it might've been a , um, a birth defect that was not caught or diagnosed. Again, no one knows. But obviously this is someone who in addition to sort of being , um, popular or in the, in the spotlight as we should say, is also clearly, you know, very athletic, very fit, and still had this heart attack. So I just wanna remind folks that no matter who you are, take care of yourself and get yourself checked. And again, he might have done everything right and he still just had this happen . And that happens too . But , you know , we have many instances of folks just , uh, being running into problems that maybe could have been prevented. I'm not , again, I don't know if that's the case here. Um, or in the example of , uh, over the, the fall with DeMar Hamlin from the Buffalo Bills, just getting tackled in the, in just precisely the right way, that he essentially went into cardiac arrest. And again, thank you to all our first responders who are able , and our doctors and medical professionals who are able to help folks in those extremely, you know, dire and difficult situations. Uh, but yeah, take care of yourselves, folk . Take care of yourselves, folks. And again, it's not just because Brody's the son of a celebrity. I think anyone that experiences that should be able to receive the medical attention that they, that they need.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And everybody in the church who thinks they should be running themselves ragged needs to also listen to your bodies and do all those things. 'cause it's not the healthiest working environment in the church. And I think sports may be the same way. And a lot of other places are the same way. Along with like all these, all these like gender, gender things that intersect all this. Like, a lot of men don't go to the doctor and they need to, and to get checked out and think that they can just kind of tough it out when that's not the case. So everyone Yeah. Go to the doctor, it's get a checkup. That's just what you need. Also go to the dermatologist. That's another thing I tell everybody. 'cause that's real. And climate change is only making it worse. But
Speaker 1:Yeah. And if you're, I agree . If you're male, get your colon checked. That's something else.
Speaker 2:Yeah. All of it. Just go get it done. And ideally everybody would have healthcare and we don't. So that's another thing as to why people just can't do anything. Yeah . But
Speaker 1:I take that back. Everyone should get their colon check , but especially lately, there's been a lot of pe , a lot of men who are discovering undiagnosed or un preventable colon cancer. So that's why I bring that up, thinking of Chadwick Bozeman, rest in peace.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, yeah, so everybody go get checked. And another thing that kind of will go into our question for today, everybody is talking about Florida per usual and Ron DeSantis and now Ron DeSantis is, and the administration is basically, well actually in the school board is trying to , uh, whitewash and rewrite black history. And the most controversial thing that has come out of this is that some of the standards that have been passed in Florida have changed. And one of these statements says that Florida students must learn that enslaved people developed skills that could be applied for their personal benefit. And firstly, that is absolutely inaccurate. Slavery is a pretty much demonic system that destroyed generations of black folk and families and wealth and history, basically a genocide of all proportions. And I don't think anything could be pointed to the fact that skills were developed for personal benefit. I think that is like the largest fabrication I've ever heard in the history of any kind of student standard. But it has spurred a lot of needed backlash and a lot of needed pushback from a variety of people. But it's also created this sense and this kind of misguided idea that everybody should avoid Florida. And I'm not saying that there, that there are people within the state that could leave. I mean, some people have because of the anti-trans bills and a lot of the bills aimed at black people in Florida. And some people are very privileged to do so, but many people cannot do that. And our question kind of alludes to this so we can like talk about this more when we prompt the question. But yeah, it's just, it is something that is just completely outrageous, evil and very sinful for anybody to think or put out there that slavery was for the benefit of black people. It, it, it, it perpetuates the narrative, the lost cause narratives of the past that slaves were happy, slaves were protected, slaves were all these things that this narrative is now seeing in a different manifestation. But it's an old narrative too. So we can get more into how people have approached this within the question though.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And speaking of the question, it relates to this exact sort of phenomenon that Lee just described. So the question reads, I hear about people saying that they don't want to go to Florida because of the politics of the leaders there. We've also heard other stories and other situations before about calls to boycott or to divest from specific companies or to not give attention to problematic people, for example, on social media, but does just refusing to engage with someone actually work. I think that's a really good question because there are times when I think it, it might work, it might make a really strong statement. I would also caution against the idea that just refusing to engage with someone that you think, or something that you think is problematic, that that is always the best way to go. Because sometimes it's better if, if you have the opportunity to have dialogue and relationship, you might be able to make some change. And that's something that is true. It's not always true, but there might be, obviously you have to take care of yourself and set boundaries appropriately too. Never put yourself in a, in a situation where you are going to be harmed or don't feel safe. But that said, I also want to be careful about the idea that this is just, that this perspective would be supporting cancel culture and just oh, out with them because they're bad or they're wrong because I think that that is also dangerous. So it's a fine line and we've seen it work in the church and in the faith community sometimes doing that does work and sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on the situation. Uh, but also remember that in the case of, for example, for Florida, just choosing not to go to Florida, is that really making the impact that you want is not engaging or supporting the Florida economy? People that live and work in Florida? Is that gonna make a difference to the leaders? Who are the people that you may actually wish had different opinions, different views, and were taking different actions? So measuring the, and it's hard to measure impact, but thinking about what is, what is your goal? Yeah . And do your actions support that goal being achieved? But what do you think Lee ?
Speaker 2:Well I do think, I mean obviously people can do what they want, but I also think that there are certain people that are not gonna feel safe going to certain areas. And whenever I hear things or see posts about like, nobody needs to go to Florida or let's just cut off Florida from the rest of the country or, or everybody boycott Florida as a blanket statement, it is usually from people of privilege. And it's usually from people who would never have to think whether or not they should or shouldn't be going to a place because of their safety. And it's this neoliberal, white, blanketed thing that makes even liberal progressive decisions easier and not nuanced enough. And I think that for me, there are people in Florida, there are people in Florida, there are people of color in Florida, there are poor people in Florida , there's poverty, homelessness, there are a lot of things in Florida that if everybody said, oh, let's just not worry about Florida, what is gonna happen to those people? It's easy for you to say, let's not deal with it. Let's just cut Florida off because of Ron DeSantis. And that's actually what probably Ron DeSantis goal is for us to wear you down and for you to not worry about Florida. But there are people there that are living that can't move, that doesn't have the capacity nor the money to get out. And I'm just kind of tired of hearing a lot of rich white neoliberal people make claims like this when they have never had to deal with any kind of safety issue ever. And then use it on the internet as clickbait. There are several of them that, that get asked to speak, get asked to go to conferences. And the only reason why they put things out almost is to create some reaction when really we're perpetuating a very neoliberal, veiled idea of what justice is. It's like if we really wanted to make a difference, the opposite of what we need to do is not to not go to Florida, but we need to go to Florida. The people who feel safe to do so, the people who wanna do the work, I would never ask somebody who would feel unsafe going to go. But if you're a person of privilege, if you're a straight cis person, especially a white one, and you're making these claims, I think we should all ask ourselves, where is this coming from? Is it just for cliques? Is it just for people to get a reaction? Are you actually gonna do something about it because , and frankly I'm kind of tired of it all. It's like, yes, Ron DeSantis is a terrible person. And I will say that, but that does not mean that everybody in Florida is fine with this. Some people are trying to live, some people are literally trying to live and save their own lives, but some people are trying to survive even the crappy economics and financial issues that they have. And so for us to, for people to just kind of broad sweep it, it just shows, even in progressive circles, there is a swath of very tone deaf rhetoric that's going on that makes just these things easy. Oh, just don't go to Florida or just don't go to Texas for what they're doing. You tell that to an immigrant that's trying to flee somewhere and trying to make a better life for themselves, and y'all just think it's fine to make these statements. It's not, it's in my opinion, very cowardly and it doesn't make a difference.
Speaker 1:I think something else that you've pointed out is that it's so easy regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum, to see something happening in another state, in another community, in another country, whatever it is, and just be like, oh, well they're backwards there.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:And then that's just kind of where it stops. It's like everyone there is backwards. Everything they do is wrong and I'm just not gonna engage. And no one else should either, unless you're supportive of that and if you're supportive of that, you're the problem. Which is, I'm not saying everyone has maybe quite to that extreme of that perspective, but they certainly, I certainly do hear elements of that when it's just like, oh, well they're backwards. Yeah, they're, they're outdated. Oh, they're, they're old school, which means that they're gonna do it this way and that's just not right. And oh yeah, you just shouldn't go. We shouldn't go. That attitude is also dangerous because you are shutting down opportunities for dialogue and like you said, you're also shutting down any opportunities to tell other people that, Hey, if you want to see this changed and you feel safe going to try to do something about it, you should go and do that.
Speaker 2:Right . It's not discounting entire population of people. And it's just like what, what recently happened with, and this is on the other side of the spectrum of the new, of that Jason Aldean song about the small town. It's a song that basically is written to be very racist, to be very pro-police, to be very violent. And it talks about like, like this doesn't happen in a small town or like, don't mess with a small town because this, and this'll happen to you. And in the, the music video it showed the courthouse in Columbia, Tennessee where a lot of white supremacists and racist stuff had happened throughout history , especially during like the forties, fifties and sixties. And they knew, they knew well aware of what they were doing, the writers knew the video people knew. They can say they don't all alone . Jason Aldean knows it, but it's also painting a picture of small towns that every one of them is like that. I am from a small town and that does not happen. Like there, there are things that happen in small towns just as it happens in bigger cities. It's, it's not a, it's not a like blanket statement and generalization, which we are just so into doing on all ends of the spectrum. There is no, there is no room for nuance anymore. Or actually like getting to know a specific context in what is happening in an area. All small towns are different. Like everything is different. He made that song to perpetuate racism and white supremacy while saying pretty much every small town is like that. And it's not, it's like one of those things that's like just as we paint, you know, every person is this way or like every church is this way or it's a massive generalization to, to where it's easy to do that. And it makes us feel good that we can say, even if I'm critiquing Jason Aldean, I've heard people like, yeah. Like, like don't go to a small town. Like that's what, that's what happens. And it's like, well that's not true either. Like, because it's a different context and a different thing. Yeah . And I think we are so good at generalizing everything because it's easy for us to process and it's easy for us to say, and it's easy for us to not do anything because we're like, oh , not going there. Right. And it's, it's just we, it will be the detriment because we generalize and blanket so many things. We'll never understand it and not actually learning what is happening in people's lives. Right . And that's where I get, that's where I can't like have a conversation when somebody is like generalizing everything. But I bet if Disney World had a sale on, they'd go to Florida, most of them would. So I wonder about that as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's just a level of nuance that is lost in that generalization. And I mean, I , and we're all guilty of making them, and I'll say this, I moved from New York City to Idaho. It is a , that is , there is a cultural change there, but it is not everything that people might try to make it out to be. It is not that there are no conservative people in New York City and Idaho is only full of people who are, who identify as conservative. That's just fundamentally not true. Right . Does Idaho tend to vote more conservatively, especially outside of Boise, the capitol ? Yes. Boise usually goes blue, more progressive, more liberal. Well that doesn't mean there's not progressives in the rest of Idaho.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so there , that is something that I think is, it's like remember not to make such blanket generalizations and even within the nuance of, for example, conservatism, a conservative in Idaho is not the same as someone who is a conservative in Texas or in Tennessee. In the same way that a liberal or someone who identifies as progressive may not always be the same in New York as they are in California.
Speaker 2:Right . Very different.
Speaker 1:Yeah. They're very different. And we have to not just get, let ourselves get boxed into these generalizations, as you've said.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that's the first step before we even are thinking about what's the thing that we need to change or how do we affect change first we have to change the ways that we're thinking about these things in the first place.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I'll be, and I am from a small town and small towns, they do get generalized. And I'm not saying there's not issues in small towns 'cause there is, but there are people in small towns. There are people of color in small towns even. And those people choose that a sometimes because they want to be in that community. And that is the thing that we need to understand is that yes, things happen and they're awful. But at the, on the other side of it too, it's not, it is not necessarily always bad when you say small town. And what you may think that that is, unless you actually know Jason Aldean is from Macon, Georgia. That is not a small town. If you ever been to Macon, Georgia, it is a pretty big town. It is a pretty big city. And so even the song is misguided. The song is misguided. Though there is some like historical contextual things that are very problematic when it comes to the history of the specific area that they're talking about. And they all knew what they were doing. It's a bunch of racist evil stuff that they tried to put out there. But with generalizations we'll never get anywhere If we continue to do it and we continue to say and discount a whole entire landmass of people that are mad about what's going on and are trying to do something and us saying discounting them is not helping them. In fact, it's hindering everything. So if that's what you're doing out there, maybe think a little bit or get to know somebody that's living there and actually get a story about it instead of overgeneralizing it. 'cause it's, it's just not helpful.
Speaker 1:And again, we're all guilty of doing it. Don't beat yourself up if you have done it, but just think about what you can do to change your own perspective moving forward. And that goes for Lee and myself as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And don't do it for clickbait.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, speaking of this isn't clickbait. I don't know why I'm trying to make that kind of a segue here, <laugh> , but we, I just wanted to say we hope that you will enjoy our conversation with our guest , which is with Reverend Dr. Anna Carter Florence, the Peter Marshall professor of preaching at Columbia Theological Seminary and author of a is for Alabaster 52 Reflections on the Stories of Scripture. So we hope you enjoy this conversation with Anna . Well , we are so excited to be joined on this episode of a Matter of Faith a Presby podcast by a very special guest. Joining us is the Reverend Dr. Anna Carter Florence, who is the Peter Marshall professor of preaching at Columbia Theological Seminary. And the author of a is for Alabaster 52 Reflections on the Stories of Scripture. Anna , thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's good to have you and it's good to meet you. We've, we've only just recently met, so I'm really glad to meet you. Um ,
Speaker 3:I'm delighted to be here , be part
Speaker 2:Of this. Yes . Gonna be fun. Uh, what we do have a question that we will start off on and then we'll just see where the spirit takes us.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:Our question reads, how do we approach scripture in ways that are relevant to our current context? Also, it seems like we always hear the same stories in church. How do we include more narratives from scripture?
Speaker 3:You want me to just go right ahead? <laugh>, you
Speaker 2:Can go, go, go in, go in,
Speaker 3:Go in. This is my, this is where I live. Okay. It's such, those are such good questions. Great questions. They're essential questions. Um, because what they're kind of implying is that we're not setting a big enough table , um, for people to get around and read scripture together. And we're not making it , um, not only not relevant, it's, it's not relevant and maybe also , um, not accessible. So one of the things that I've really wanted to do in my teaching and when I travel around and visit churches and others is just to get people excited and give them some tools to, so that anyone who sits at the table reading scripture, whatever the passage is, has a place to get in on the conversation on , um, reading the verbs has been the easiest or most efficient way for me to do that. Um, when I'm with groups, we just, I mean, it's simple. You just read the text verbs first. You go around and you focus on that. And not everybody may know who the BU sites are, but everybody knows what a verb is and everybody can get in on , um, the conversation. So the first thing I would say is as soon as we set a bigger table and invite more people to be reading scripture with us and reading together, the more it's going to be relevant, the more it's going to be our book. You can't have a book be your book if it's not a book you're reading. So that's one of the first things I would say is to make sure people feel comfortable and welcome and invited and heard when we sit down and read together. That's the first thing. And the second question, which is also a great one, that we always hear the same stories in church. Yeah. Well, preachers are kind of to blame for that. So the first thing would be to get on your preacher about that. The second thing would be if you are someone who works on planning worship, is just to go rogue. I mean , there are so many amazing stories in scripture and most of them are not in the lectionary. Um, if you are part of a church that uses the lectionary of assigned readings every week , um, most of them are kind of at the edges and in between . So there are some great resources out there for helping to , um, suggest stories that congregations might look at together and hear in worship if they haven't been heard at all. There are some great books you've been interviewing great people who can talk to that. So those are some of the first things that I would say open the table and break the rules.
Speaker 1:I love that. And I'm glad that you mentioned the lectionary. I am part of a young adult bible study that meets on Zoom, and it originally started as a group of folks who are all attending the same church. And over time some of us have gone in different directions, but we've maintained the connection and the meeting space. And so some of us are at different churches now across the country and sometimes even the world, which is really neat. And we usually do Lectio to Venus style of reading, and we usually would pick us , we usually would use the lectionary, pick a passage and then read the passage across a couple different translations. And something that was, it's been interesting about that is we'll look at the lectionary and because some of us are at different churches, be like, oh, well our church, our pastor, we know he's preaching on , they're preaching on this scripture. Let's not do that. Let's do a different one. Or our pastor preached on that last week or did something kind of similar themed last week, so we're gonna do something different. And then someone else says , well, yeah, we kind of talked about this at our church. So then we're actually filtering through the lectionary. And we often end up with these lesser, sort of lesser touched on passages, which I've really appreciated because I think it gives us a chance to not always feel like we're getting the same stuff every time. And sort of in the same vein, this is not exactly scriptural related , but I've been thinking about like the music that I listen to when I turn on the radio, which is always, you know, top 100. And I've noticed that I get really tired of the top 100 songs, <laugh> , I may be, I , I may be I guess hip because I know what the top hundred is, but I don't, I'm not really expanding my musical horizons by doing that. And if anything, I'm getting really tired of this same playlist over and over and I'm trying , I'm thinking about that in the context of scripture. If we could expand the playlist a little bit, as you were saying by bringing more people in and expanding the table as well, I'm really curious how much more our knowledge and understanding of scripture would be changed.
Speaker 3:I love that analogy, Simon. That's such a great analogy. And it makes me think of, you know, like when you go to a, a wedding or a a great party and there's a good playlist and it'll have new stuff and old stuff and everybody, everybody loves that. I mean, I think , um, I think you're absolutely right. We have to not rely on the same things all the time and also be aware that there are , you know, the church is an open door, so people are always coming and going and they may be hearing stories for the very first time. So to read a really familiar story with people who've never heard it before can be amazing. And the second thing I would say is we need to, I would hope we could really encourage each other to not try to look for the meaning, but to try to look for what the text is saying to you today. And that's a difference, you know, because the text is speaking, you know, they say in the U C C , God is still speaking, the text speaks so differently depending on where you're sitting and what's happening in your life and who you're with and who's reading with you. The , the stories you've read over and over can completely leap out in different ways when you sit at a table with new people. So I love what you, what your group is doing. You're kind of taking the reins and trying to broaden and also , um, comparing notes about what's happening in your contexts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember hearing the story. I think it's in numbers, which is not a book we really talk about a bunch <laugh>. And I remember hearing a story once and I was asked, it was a school thing, I was asked to preach on it, but it was the one where like all the snakes were in the desert and like they were biting people and then Moses like made this bronze snake thing and they all looked at it or whatever, and, and it kind of saved them all, but some of them died. Like it was a very bizarre thing , uh, story. And I remember when I first heard that and I was like, for one, why haven't I heard this before? Because I didn't even know that was a thing. And I thought I was pretty literate in the Bible. But I feel like a lot of people may think that in the church. And one of my professors though said that the Bible is the most popular book whatever in, in the world, but it's the least read. And whenever I had that assignment, I was like, yeah, like I had no idea. Like some of this stuff was even in here. And it also kind of perpetuates this, this idea that we, we still in some ways very much like proof text in ways that don't take it as a whole, as the biblical narrative of us as a whole. And I wonder about that too before we go into maybe asking about what are these stories that we've never heard, but I, I just wonder about how do we, we approach scripture in that way with like these narratives, but also holding that in conjunction with maybe the entirety of the biblical narrative as a whole whole. Because I do think we are in a time of proof texting. We are in a time where people take certain texts out and use them way out of context and way out. That's not very appropriate, especially now when we're talking about folk and the an , the legislation that's going out mm-hmm . <affirmative> . But I wonder about that too and what you would say to, to people maybe approaching it scripture maybe for of the first time or like maybe are just now getting back into it, but like that approach as a whole in some way.
Speaker 3:That's such a good thing to ask. And, you know, I wish that makes me think, Lee , that that would be a great question to start at with , um, with a group is just to go around and ask what comes to mind when they think of the Bible and how has it been read in the , if they've been part of a community that does read scripture , um, what's it been used to do? Because the Bible right now , um, quite frankly, is being weaponized all over the place in ways that are pretty awful and not, in my view, don't have much to do with scripture and have a lot to do with politics and political positions. And scripture is being used to bolster all of those things, which is not to say that scripture is not political. I think it has a lot to say about our life together and how we live. But I think for many of us, we look out there and scripture is used to, as you say, proof text and to close a conversation and end it and come up with what's said to be a definitive word. And that's not the way scripture is really meant to be read. And when it's the community's book, it's not meant to have one person say definitively over time, this is it. This is how we're going to read this and this is what it means. And if you disagree with me, then that's an example of your lack of faith or obedience or sin or something. You know, something like this. Um, the rabbis, the ancient rabbis were reading scripture all the time and they never read it alone. They always read it with others. And they loved interpreting new things, hearing new things, seeing new things, seeing what it was saying in their own day. And that is something I think some of our Christian traditions have lost along the way. And as a result, the word Christian now is not always a very positive term out in the culture. I don't know if you all have come across that, but you know, my sons who are 28 and 32 have to do a little fast talking when they say , um, yeah, my parents are both Presbyterian ministers and my mother teaches in the seminary, and people think immediately that we're crazy <laugh> <laugh> or that we're representing what's out there, you know, that we are, we're , um, they think they know exactly Marjorie Taylor Greene or something. Um , yeah. Yeah . And that's not, those are not positions that we share or hold. So we have some backtracking to do and we have some listening to do to one another to acknowledge the hurt that scripture has caused. Mm-hmm . And then to really covenant together to say, how can we hear it as a book that speaks, speaks to us about human flourishing Now, you know, and and I'm not saying you may have heard quite a bit, you know, what's the good news in this text? Christians say that a lot. Good news is not necessarily something happy. It's, it's what is, what is bread for your life right now in what you're hearing in the scripture and who is, what is the portrait of God that you're seeing here? What is this saying to you today? And why is it important that if you're going to share it with someone else, why would it be important to say so? Those are some of the things, but that's such a great question and , uh, we do not talk about it enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I ask that because, you know , I'm bound just did this querying the prophet series and for, for one of the first time I did ask a rabbi to write for us, because of course it is, you know, the Old Testament and it is a book about the prophets. And I wanted that perspective. And, you know, we had a dialogue within the conversation because , uh, there, there was a piece written about Palestine, and I'm always upfront about our stance with our Palestinian siblings and all these things. And, but in that conversation and in the email exchange, we did have a big conversation specifically about progressive, progressive theology and progressive fates and how in many ways the God of the Old Testament is always painted as the God of fire and brimstone and judgment, and then is comparison to the God of the New Testament, which is also, there's some apocalyptic stuff in there too, which we don't talk about very much, but like, and , and and how those things are in some ways perpetuating tropes of, you know, anti-Semitic ideas and things like that. And it really does make me continue to think about how as, as we paint ourselves as kind of this progressive theology world of Christianity, that we also still have a lot of work to do, even in that with our own kind of proof texting in weird ways that may come across as not so, not so inclusive as we want it to be. And so I'm really glad that, like we do start off with having those conversations of this is the broader narrative of the entirety of the book and, and what that means in our lives. And so, so yeah, it , it rears its head in every facet of whatever theology or ideology that we kind of attest to. So I really appreciate Yeah. That kind of how we approach it in, in those ways. So we're pretty in intentionally careful about, about all those things that that can happen. Yeah .
Speaker 3:Yeah. And yeah, that's really well said. And not universalizing our claims. Right, right. Yeah . Um, not saying, okay, I hear this and so therefore Simon, if you don't, there's something wrong with you. Um , <laugh> or Simon get with the program, or Lee, that is not possible to hear in the text. I mean, those are the kinds of statements that sometimes get thrown around. And I think maybe we just need to get better at coming back , um, and empowering ourselves to reclaim the book. You know, I think this book is an amazing book. I love sitting down and reading with people. I love reading with people who come from different traditions and sitting down and doing it together and just trying to set aside all that other stuff and listen right here in a way where you can actually see what what you say , uh, passes over another person's body and what it does to them. If you say, I hear this in the text. I think those are, those are important things to be upfront about how we read, how we read. And I really appreciate that series , um, that you're doing. I read , um, the piece on Habakkuk by Alicia Crosby and that Habakkuk two text was my ordination text and, and she said some really, really , um, really good things that made me think about it in different ways.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I've been stuck on the, the music analogy I made earlier a bit as you were talking, Anna.
Speaker 3:It's a good analogy.
Speaker 1:Well, to give and to give a little more context. So for example, where I am in Idaho, a lot of things end up being edited. And I'm not even just talking like radio edit to take out swear words. I'm talking like words getting changed because of the, because of the culture in this area where I am. It's a , it's a very heavy Mormon presence. Mm-hmm . And so , um, there aren't references, obviously to sexual things, but also to alcohol or like drugs. But instead of just bleeping things out, words get changed. There's a, there's a lyric, I forget the song where it's, I think it's, I climbed to my rooftop and , and with my whiskey or, and got my whiskey or something like that, and it got changed to, I went up to the rooftop with my Mustang, which makes absolutely no sense in the context of a song <laugh>. But if I didn't know the original lyrics, if that was the original version I was exposed to, and, you know, I didn't know anything else, that would be my original understanding of the way that song is written. And so I'm trying to imagine if that was, if we think about the ways that things are interpreted and, and, and sort of that we experience in our own faith context or just from the world around us in our local context, and then we talk to someone else around that table, my mind might be blown. 'cause I might be like, oh, I didn't even know that, that this other word or phrase was even in that sentence.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah. And there are other, the , the , I'll be honest, some of the funniest ones are the ones that , uh, where there are references that are a little bit more maybe risque that then get changed that just make them very strange. Um, I can tell you about some of those maybe off, off air, but Yeah. You under , but you get, the point I'm making is that there's the way that we have experienced this scripture and then there's the way that maybe it, it that could be totally different from even the way it actually was written, let alone the way other people have experienced it .
Speaker 3:Yeah. You know, what you're saying is such a great example of the power of translation, you know , uh, and also context, I mean, what it's like for you living where you do, you know, I had a , a text from my sister-in-law recently. She said, can you tell me a good translation of the Bible that I can get for Chris ? That's my brother. He needs something to write in, write all over. And I was so struck by both of those things, <laugh> , that she was asking, first of all. Um, I mean, she knows there are a lot of different translations, one that might be good for him right now, but the second that he was gonna be writing in it, he was gonna be like , um, engaging it , you know, not holding it out there as something that he can't touch. And I <laugh> I wish we could, you know, I know the Gideon Bibles are in hotel rooms, but I really wish we could put other translations out there too. And you know, you gotta hand it to the Gideons. At least they know you gotta get the book in people's hands.
Speaker 2:Every Yeah, every hotel room, <laugh>
Speaker 3:Yeah. Every hotel room that's there . Yeah. But if we aren't communicating that scripture comes to us by way of translation, and therefore we just have to take seriously that translators are very good people who are sometimes trying to protect you from what the text really says, you know? And so you gotta go and , uh, find out. Yeah , find out free and not be afraid to do that. And if you need tools to do that, if you need resources to do that, they're out there . Um, you guys are one, you know, there are , there are lots of places you can go to to broaden , um, your own access to the book.
Speaker 2:And I appreciate what you said about if, if people are willing to, because I do think, you know, I'll never forget when I was at Divinity school, there were some, or even when I took some religion classes in undergrad when somebody actually said the Bible has been translated and here are manuscripts and here are all these things that have proven that throughout the centuries and research. And like , here are the documents, like it's here. Like, you know, it really did blow a lot of people's minds. And, and I think it still would because in , in many ways I think we are very privileged people to be in where we are, to know the things that we know, especially the history and everything else that is con con that surrounds the biblical text in general. People don't know that. And like people don't have a clue. And when it is introduced in various ways , um, and I think this is some reason why I think a lot of things are hidden from people on purpose through a lot of perpetuation of a lot of things. And I don't think a lot of people want people to know these things. Um, and that's why it's so hard to know them. But mm-hmm . <affirmative> , I do think having more conversations about how we even got got the book because it took a lot, like, it took a lot of manuscripts that were compiled and compiled, and I remember the first time somebody heard that and saw the evidence, you could see years and years of theology and Sunday School and everything else just crumbling in their minds. Mm-hmm . And in some ways, I really had a lot of empathy for people who, who one little thing can shatter the entirety of their belief system. And I experienced that in divinity school. We had people who have meltdowns, we had people who, I mean obviously were going through some sort of trauma because of it mm-hmm. <affirmative> . And it is amazing without that kind of openness and dialogue and kind of like, you don't touch the Bible whatsoever. What, what we have created in a sense that it's such a fragile theology and spirituality to where if you ask a question or you even see a text or manuscript, it completely crumbles everything. And that was, is is very shocking to experience and seeing somebody else too.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Of course I teach in a seminary, so that's something that I see on a regular basis. Yeah . And it is powerful to witness and poignant and something that you hope and pray a community's gonna hang in there with you if it happens to be your moment doing this. Um, because what's happening is it's something that a person thought was sacred is now feeling to them a little less than that. And it just feels that way. It doesn't mean that it isn't, but it just , you know, so, so can you hang in there long enough to be able to say, what makes this text sacred? Is it the fact that I thought that there was only one way to see it on a page or one way to hear it, or one language, or one meaning is that what makes it sacred or is does something else make it sacred? Is God somehow revealed here in ways that are constantly challenging us? You know, the text speaks with all of these voices . I think that's the, that's the kind of putting back together thing that happens in seminary to try to say, my faith doesn't need to be contingent on, on these neat categories, or it doesn't even need to be the faith that I came in with that sustained me through childhood. It can grow. And so scripture could be something bigger, and it's not gonna blow my mind to know that the Bible's an ancient book that only was written down at a certain point, and before that it was just everybody telling stories or that it was written in multiple languages or that we keep finding ancient manuscripts that tell us new things about it. The , um, old Testament scholar Ellen Davis, who taught at Duke for a long time says, we are about as far from <laugh> the culture of the Bible, the Old Testament as we could possibly be. And so therefore, that's an invitation for us to read in a certain way, not to take it as literal. The lives that are being described are not necessarily the lives that we live every day , the farming, the agricultural, all of those things. But, but the essential human things we can, we can come back and think about those.
Speaker 1:I like that we're having this conversation now because this, this episode will come out , uh, just after another one in which we talked with our guest about stories of sexual exploitation in the Bible and understanding those and how to , uh, from a , like a preaching perspective, preach about those in a way that is also , uh, trying to also meet the audience where they're at, recognizing everyone's at a different place in terms of, you know, their relationship to things like sexual abuse or sexual exploitation. And , uh, one of the things that came up in that conversation is that, first of all, we avoid those stories a lot often in terms of our studies as well as what we hear from the pulpit. And based on some of the things that, that you've been talking about here, I I do really want to ask, what are some of those stories that we don't hear about as often that you think people really should take some time to spend some time with in terms of study that aren't always gonna be covered in the lectionary and that hold a lot of value , uh, for us as people of faith?
Speaker 3:Thanks Simon for that question. That's a really, really important question, and I wanna respond in two ways. The first thing is I want to, I wanna plead , um, with everyone, I wanna advocate for letting people know that texts of lament are in scripture all over the place, that there is precedent for the people of God when they are in deep pain, for expressing that honestly, fully without holding anything back , um, to God, even with anger, knowing that this is a part of, of being a human being in pain. And the reason I say that is that people who have experienced , um, deep trauma such as what you're talking about, often don't know that the Bible gives them space to lament what has happened to them. So that's the first thing I wanna say. I remember once there was a student of mine who was teaching a class at , uh, women's detention centers , um, incar incarcerated women. And if you know about the prison system in the us , you know, about 10% of the women, of , of the people incarcerated are women. And of those 90% have been sexually abused. I don't know if that number is still that high, but it's very high. And so this student was reading texts of lament with these women, and tears were coming down their faces and one of them said, I had no idea I could talk to God this way. And what that said to me was how different this person's life might have been if they had had access to that after that horrible experience that they had had. So that's the first thing I wanna say. The second thing is , yeah, these stories that are descriptive of sexual trauma, they are in scripture. Um, sometimes that can feel very empowering or reassuring to know that even this was considered important enough to write down a story about something like this, about deep human failure and violence. And it was, it was important enough to be remembered and documented and , um, contained in the book not as a, not as a way to say this is okay, but as a way to say, this is what human beings can do to one another. I mean, this stuff happens and it has happened in the ancient world, and yet in these stories, there's often you see portraits of people who are dealing with it in amazing ways. You see stories of resilience, you see stories of people coming back around and trying to make , make the best of what they can or, or, or sometimes, you know, stories where that doesn't go on and the people of God suffer because one of their own is in pain. So that's some of what I would say, Simon. I think you do have to be careful as you're saying, if you're a preacher to just, you know, you don't wanna trigger people. But I think there are ways, and I know people who've done this to say to a con , to a faith community, okay, I , we are gonna explore some of these really hard ones, give people a lot of heads up, maybe read them together before you , um, somebody gets up of the pulpit and preaches because what we're looking for is not what, we're not trying to necessarily say something about what's been detected in the text about rape or whatever. We're trying to say something about how we as a community respond, how, how we as a community try to hold and nurture and protect our children, for instance. Or how we try to make sure that this kind , this violent, awful stuff is as far from our homes as possible. But we can't have those conversations always unless we can find , um, access. I have spent a lot of time reading those stories because I think it's really important. It's something that's really important for me to put them in the hands of my students. I want them to know that there is nothing they can't look at in the text and in human life because that's the job is to be with people, to be with people and to be able to sit with even when it's really, really hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, it is a hard, it is hard. Um, and I'm glad that you gave us that, that word of that word. I will say the word. Mm-hmm . Uh, but I'll also wonder, you know, about some of the stories that are a part of your book. What are some of these stories that may be your favorites, that may be, I don't know if you can say favorite, but you might have favorite ones. Uh, some stories that, you know, we can give a little glimpse into what is a part of the book, but yeah, what are some of those stories that come to mind?
Speaker 3:Oh, I'm so glad you asked that question, <laugh> . Um , okay. So I , um, I think kind of naturally gravitate to things that nobody wants to look at or maybe not a lot of people are looking at. So I kind of intentionally went straight for some stories that I know don't appear a great deal in faith communities, but that are these awesome things. And a lot of them are about women who are all over scripture, but don't necessarily get a lot of airtime. Some of the ones that I've, and I've written about some in the o in other books as well. I mean, in my book rehearsing Scripture, I spent a lot of time talking about the story in two Samuel 13 of the Rape of Tamar, who was one of the daughters of King David was raped by her half brother . And it's a really hard, hard story, but she is one of the most incredible characters in scripture for how she, how she lives into , you know, in that. And then what it costs. It's just, it's an awful story, but it's something that is really important and powerful to read in, in this book. A is for Alabaster there. Um, I spent some time with a number of women who have heart stories. And let's just say for the record, Jesus did that kind of, as a matter of fact all the time. He, he kind of gravitated to women who had complicated stories. So in the book of Genesis in chapter 38, there's this , the story of Tamar and Judah, which is sometimes lifted up as a text of terror and , um, is a really interesting one to explore. And then a lot of other stories just about characters that felt important to name Abigail, the Daughters of Zfa had. Mary Magdalene doesn't get enough airtime, and by the way, she was never a prostitute. That's an addition. I'm sitting here and, and just thinking every single one. Um, I think, you know, Vashti , Esther , PUA , Shara , Ruth, Naomi, all of these are characters that do things that probably parents wouldn't counsel us to do. But , uh, the stories are there and, and they're amazing to read and, and they all have something really important to say to us now. Not just moralistic things, but important things to say about, about who God is.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it's so, it is so powerful to, to see how humanity has experienced God throughout, throughout the centuries. And I'm gonna plug a Netflix documentary. It's very obscure, so it's about this discovery of a new homo species within these caves. And it turns out that there are, there, there is a precursor to homo sapiens that have also, that also buried there , that did burials in their communities. And it has completely kind of like, I love that kind of stuff. I have a biology background and I'm all about that kind of thing. Hmm . And it made me really like, it really like took me more of back than I realized because of the ways in which humanity and even the precursor now to humans have developed and how we have experienced each other. But also , uh, when it comes to burial, there's also a possibility of this idea of spirituality. Something of like the divine that is happening 250,000 years ago is when these were dated and what that means for us in connecting through, through all kinds of sources. But like the Bible is one of those things and how people have experienced the divine, whether or not we, they can articulate it or not, but even in species that were way before our evolutionary time. Hmm . And it really is amazing , uh, to think about that. And we have so many people that are against evolution and because it's not biblical and like all these things. And it really did make me think about this upcoming conversation that we were gonna have when it comes to all this stuff. Like the connections that we have with these beat like Yeah. With each other and humanity and like even before that. And we, and we are lucky to have something like the Bible to even allow us to kind of delve into the lives and how people have experienced God through that. And yeah, it kind of blew my mind there for a second. I've been very, like, I've been very meta these days <laugh>. And like I wanted to watch this documentary 'cause I'd read the research before, but yeah, it, it just kind of made me think about that and how amazing it is to, to, to even get, to like delve into that about how people experience it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I like how you, I like how open you are to the new, the new things coming in. Um , yeah . The new , um, I don't wanna say information, but , um, evidence of humanity. Yeah. You know , which, which the scripture is too. Yeah . Um, there are a lot of unnamed people in scripture that whose stories are also recorded, you know , over and over. The wife of lot , the woman who had a hemorrhage, the woman who broke an alabastro jar . Tons of stories of people doing extraordinary things and in a way that struck the community and the community wanted to remember.
Speaker 2:And I wonder what we're gonna leave behind.
Speaker 3:That's a great question. Like us,
Speaker 2:You know, you can't , uh, what, what, what happened when we said we couldn't add to the Bible is Yeah . Is an interesting question I always think about. It's like, why did it stop <laugh>?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, Bishop Yvette Flender says that we made the worst mistake ever when we put the back on the book. And she says, we need to tear the back off the book and take seriously that revelation is happening around us. Listen for what might be new holy scripture in our midst. The decision to make something, I mean, the decision to put the particular books in the Bible the way they are, was a decision made by church leaders. You know, they canonized it. That's the word we used at a certain point in history. But what they were doing was acknowledging that these books were already holy . They were already sacred to people. And so they were in a way just affirming that. So I, yeah, I thinking about your question. What do we, what are we going to leave behind? I mean, another way I might, or another question I might ask would be, you know, what is sacred to you and what are you going to say about that? Where are you going to invite the people you love to search for God in places where you happen to have found traces? You know, my husband's a Presbyterian minister and scripture is good . I mean, he likes scripture, but he also, nature for him is the big revelatory space. The Celts called it Nature . The Celts called it God's book, God's big book. That's what they called nature. And then they called the Bible God's little book, you know, and that's sort of where he, he is for him. God is everywhere. And so that is something, yeah, I think he has passed that on , um, to our kids and to also , um, the kids in the church. The people in the church where he works. So maybe that's something we could be thinking about together and talking about together.
Speaker 1:Well, and , uh, we are so grateful to you for coming on the podcast and talking with us about these stories and the ways that we approach scripture, whether it be as individuals, as as groups and communities around a table, as well as , um, when we're sitting in pews listening to the pulpit, or if we're those delivering a message in a sermon. Uh, this has been really interesting and I'm so grateful because I often sit there and go, you know, I know there's something else, there's something else in there in the Bible , and I'm probably just haven't heard about it. I just need to take the time to actually, well one read it, but I really don't wanna read it by myself. And I appreciate the encouragement that this is a lot easier actually, when you're not just sitting there flipping through on your own.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. That's really well said, Simon. I mean, this is a dense book. You don't just easily walk up to it and sort of get even how to navigate. And that's , um, that's something I've become passionate about because it's not hard to offer people tools. It's not hard to find them. But, but we have to do a better job. And I think clergy have to do a better job of not keeping all those tools to ourselves and of saying, yeah, this is the people's book. And the reason we're gonna do that is because what I hear in scripture is incomplete. Unless I get to sit down and talk with Simon and Lee, you know , there's a piece I'm missing, there's a view, I'm , there's a , there's a way to hear this story that, that I haven't heard yet. Yeah. So that's what I've been trying to do in the books that I put out there. I feel like it is, here's what I think is a sin. I think it's a sin to make it boring. <laugh> . And it's a sin to make it, to make to, to say you can't have it, you or you're not reading it correctly. We're listening for what it says.
Speaker 2:Well, speaking of books, before we, before we have to say goodbye, please tell us a little bit about your book and also how we get it, because everyone should go get it. Of course they should.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you for saying that. <laugh> . Um, yeah. The book is called As for Alabaster 52 Reflections on the Stories of Scripture. And basically what I did is I made an a b Cery , which is a old teaching tool that people have used for millennia , um, to teach kids their letters. What you do is you pick , uh, you pick something that goes with each letter of the alphabet, a, B, C, D, E, and there are 26 letters in the English alphabet. So I went through the Old Testament and picked something for each letter, an image or a figure. And the same in the New Testament, 26 letters. And I gave myself a discipline of finding a story that seemed to me to be really compelling and important and maybe overlooked and writing , um, an essay for people , um, to think about, to , um, share maybe in a Bible study or to read Meditation Ally, or to get use , um, as the beginning of a conversation. And it was really, really fun to write. I , um, modeled it after a book of Frederick Ner , whose name might mean something to some of your listeners. He wrote some lexicon books like this back in the seventies and eighties. I read those books and I always thought that was a interesting format. So that's, that's the discipline I gave myself. And part of the fun was picking the people for each letter , uh, because I found out really fast. Everybody's name begins with J <laugh>, so you gotta , you gotta figure out what you're gonna do. You know, Jonah had to go in for f as a fi in fish , and Abraham had to settle for you as in er is for er , you know, where he was from. I just, it was, it was kind of wild to do that. But the best part was being able to sit down and just kind of freely listen to these stories. I tried to set a big table myself. I tried to read in the company of a lot of others and then to, and then to write some stuff that I thought would not just be interesting for people to read, but would make them excited to read the Bible. That's my hope. When I was in fourth grade, I was a Sunday school dropout because that was the year we got Bibles and it was the worst. We just sat there and I realized , um, once I boycotted Sunday school and sat down and read a story bible that was mine , um, the Pearl Ess book story, Bible near Bible and narrative form that actually this book was really great. It was a lot like all the other books I liked about stories like Greek myths and stuff like that mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And so if it was boring, something was happening in fourth grade Sunday school. So I think I'm writing for a lot of the people out there who were also Sunday School dropouts.
Speaker 2:Well, everyone should check it out and Yeah, you can, I I assume we can get it in a lot of different places. Uh , yeah, just , just search for it. And
Speaker 3:I think it's on pre-order right now. I think it's officially coming out in print the first week of October, but I haven't checked actually to see on Amazon, but I'm sure there's a way to pre-order. It's Westminster John Knox Press . Yeah ,
Speaker 2:We have a link , uh, to it in the show notes, of course. But this has been wonderful.
Speaker 3:Oh , I've really loved having some time to talk to you all . Thank you for what you're doing. This is really, really important. This is so important and I'm really grateful that you all do this podcast.
Speaker 2:We try <laugh>. But , uh, thank you for being with us. And again, y'all check out as for Alabaster, have a link in our show notes. And Anna, thank you again.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Faith, the Presby podcast. And thanks to Anna Carter Florence for being with us on the podcast. We hope y'all enjoyed the conversation. We hope you subscribe wherever you get your podcast and we hope you leave us a review. Just leave us a few words and five stars and we hope you check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com. And if you have any questions for us, send the Faith podcast@pcusa.org and we will talk to you again next week.