Queer Justice in Africa w/ Jide Macaulay

Question of the Week:
What do you think about pacifism as it relates to faith and justice? Does pacifism lead to change?

Special Guest: (14:45)
Jide Macaulay, Founder, House Of Rainbow
 
Guest Question:
What is the situation regarding queer rights internationally, especially outside the US? What work is being done, especially in places such as Uganda, Kenya, Ghana, and Nigeria?

House of Rainbow

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Well, hello everyone, and welcome to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions around faith, justice, and church life. Don't forgi forget to write in and send us your question because,

Speaker 2: 0:16

Because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of eight . And welcome everybody. Hey, Simon.

Speaker 1: 0:26

Hey, Lee . Yes. Welcome everyone. We hope you're doing well. Uh, but if you don't care how we're doing or to hear about the introductory conversation, that's okay. You can skip to our guest conversation at the timestamp, which is in the show notes and show description. But we hope you'll wanna stick around because Lee is a Lee right now. I don't, I don't always like to comment on people's physical appearance 'cause I don't know if they're , if that makes them , you know, <laugh> , just how that sometimes plays out. But right now, Lee has a zoom background that is very , uh, kind of rustic and I just, I think it looks great. I love that. Yeah . Actually, in some ways your background looks like it should be for maybe close to, closer to where I live currently than maybe where reflecting or

Speaker 2: 1:13

I live now. Yeah, yeah. Well, this is where I always liked , this is always where I want to be, like in the mountains, in a rustic cabin somewhere. So yeah. It just, it just places me there, even though I'm not there, but Right. But yeah. Yeah, I'm in the city and where everything just, it just never stops. And all these things are happening and a lot of things are happening in our world these days, but one specific thing that's happening that is on everybody's radar is a fight that is now becoming known as the Montgomery Brawl, I think. Isn't that what it's called?

Speaker 1: 1:54

That's how I've seen it referred to as

Speaker 2: 1:56

Well. No , that's how I've seen it. Yeah. And we're gonna talk about it a little bit, and it's gonna kind of bleed into our question a little bit.

Speaker 1: 2:02

Yeah. So the, the, the African American man who was attacked was the co-captain of the ferry . And actually even what had happened was the ferry had approached the dock where the pontoon boat was parked, and they tried to signal to the owners of the pontoon boat, the private, you know, the private boat via the , their pa comm system to, you know, to move that they were in the wrong spot. And they did this for like 40 to 45 minutes, and the owners of the pontoon boat responded with mockery and swearing and hostilities. And so that's why the co-captain got off the ferry to come over to try to talk to them, and then also to get the boat to move. Yeah. And then this is what happened.

Speaker 2: 2:49

Yeah. And, and, and again, just for like clarification, like the people on the private boat was a group of white people who had been doing whatever they're doing and then parking in the wrong spot. But

Speaker 1: 3:00

Yeah. And so yeah, let's, let's just jump right into the question, which is what do you think about pacifism as it relates to faith and justice, and does pacifism lead to change? And I think that we've seen a variety of ways pacifism can lead to change, but also way sometimes when it isn't appropriate for every situation we think about Gandhi very pacifist. Right. And people always psych Gandhi as sort of the, the symbol of pacifism, right? Yeah . He did affect a lot of change. He also paid for it with his life. Yeah. And not everyone's willing to do that. And I think that's okay. We just need to acknowledge that upfront . I think also in the context of this specific situation, there's some commentary that I've seen going around that is important surrounding the idea that in the United States, in, in this current day and culture , um, and I'm quoting a TikTok that I saw that was posted by a young African American man. He said that we have been taught to that it's okay for a member of our community to be brutalized in public, and everyone just sits around with their cell phones and videotapes it and that you are not supposed to go and do anything about it. Yeah. And he felt some, some , uh, he used the word pride in this situation because other members of the community did not do that. They stepped in to defend and to assist. Some people may be mad that, you know, they may have escalated or participated in the fight, but he's like, this goes against what we have been taught by white supremacy culture, essentially. Yeah. And for that, he is proud. And I think that that's an important thing. Again, Lee and I are not members of the African-American community, but I do think that that point is pretty important to consider.

Speaker 2: 4:56

Yeah. And it's, it, it is something that I think as, as a white person that I do think a lot of times, and I always say like white pacifism, where anything that is like with fighting, it's like you always rise above. You always are the better person. You don't stoop on that level. And to me, in many ways, that is just, that is just kind of these like veiled attempts to veil it in, like justice or the be the better person, but you're also being complacent in the action. I think that in some ways, through academia and through a lot of theoretical theologies and things like that, we've, we really have kind of created a sense that fighting is seen as this completely terrible thing. But we don't, we forget that who was it that fought with God fought with the angel. Was it Joshua Joseph? Somebody fought with the angel, wrestled with God, Jacob and I , Jacob. Oh God. They're going , they're gonna revoke everything for me. Jacob fought with, fought with God. And I think within that, there is a theology of this. It's, it's standing in solidarity with folk. And it is, it is a community that's coming together that's saying, you, you cannot do this. And this is the only way that you are gonna realize that you can't do this. Also, white supremacy and racism is out to, to basically obliterate anything but whiteness. And so how do we, instigators of justice and all these things, how are we to sit back and say, oh, you shouldn't fight that when they're out to kill you. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah . Like, I'm not saying like maybe in this specific instance, so I'm saying like in general, like racism and white supremacy is out to, to obliterate anything but whiteness. And so meeting that head on in that way, I think many of us should be asking, would we have joined in and, and got into it too. And I think that is, that is a conversation that I think should be happening in that what does it mean in these times where it's happening in real time ? When will it get down to us saying everything else that we're doing is not working and this is what it's gonna have to take. Yeah. And that's kind of the line that I think we should all be asking ourselves in this, in this real world. Because I think sometimes white pacifism is unrealistic. And why it's unrealistic is because people of privilege are sitting within their privilege and saying these things because they themselves are not the bearer of, of the violence. And so I think that it's a very easy thing to say, oh, we shouldn't be fighting. We should be the bigger people . No, sometimes. 'cause I will go ahead and tell you, if somebody attacked me for being a person, you better believe I'm about to fight this person. I'm not gonna sit down. I'm not gonna take it. That is for one, that's not how I was raised. And two, I am, I , I being the better person is not, in an instance, I am fighting for my life. And I'm not saying these things are the same, but what I'm saying is we have to stop this, like this unrealistic type of way of talking about violence and passivism and be in the real world sometimes, I think.

Speaker 1: 8:50

Yeah. Well, I think there's also a distinction. I say this with, I say this carefully. There's a distinction between self-defense and per perpetuating or escalating violence. Yeah . Yeah . I think those two things are different. And we also see this conversation more broadly when we talk about things like the military. And , and that's a much more macro level of, you know. Yeah . What, you know, the fact that we could, this country has so much, spend , so much money on military and defense and on military operations. Again, I don't wanna get a sidetrack from the, the situation that we're talking about here, but that isn't another area where that conversation spills over to like, oh, well, if we're supposed to be pacifist, how do we have , why do we have military? How do we have it right? And it gets complicated. And we've had podcast discussions about that previously as well. But I think at a personal level, it, this really, this conversation really does matter. And it's also interesting timing wise , because I believe that , um, one of another, one of the police officers that was involved in George Floyd's death , uh, was on trial. And I believe in his , uh, in his trial, he said he, it's interesting. He was not , he had said he had grown in his Christian faith as a result of everything, but he did not apologize. He was not sorry. And I could be misquoting, but I thought that that was really interesting because again, people caught that on camera. People caught that on video. I'm not saying people should intervene in incidents of police brutality, per se. 'cause I recognize that's also very different when law enforcement is already involved. Right . Especially when it's the people that are supposed to be keeping you safe, keeping the community safe. Right. But again, I wonder in that situation, you know, when we see situations that are clearly unjust, do we get involved? Do we not get involved? It is a really, it is a tough thing, and it's really hard to make that judgment call in a split second emotional in , in a split second on an emotional level.

Speaker 2: 10:54

Yeah. Yeah. And if you get involved, like that's why, you know, in many, in many, like you have to, like, if you are a person of privilege, I think, and specifically a white person getting involved in that way because of how racism and white supremacy is woven within policing and, and, and all of that, that's a different approach than maybe someone who is a person of color also intervening within that thing. Because then it would automatically become another situation, maybe of police brutality. Not saying they wouldn't do that to a white person either, but I'm saying the privilege is there. And how we as people with privilege as white folk, how are we risking that and leveraging that in a way? And so I, I do think it is important for us to all have these conversations and what that means right now in this instance. And, and yeah, it's just a time where people are seeing this, it's everywhere. And it's just a great conversation to have because we, we tend to go to extremes when it comes to this. It's like, well, nobody should be fighting. Well, that's not the real world. And I do think this is kind of like, you know, getting us down a little bit from all this academic stuff that we are so used to hearing and really bringing it down to a level and saying sometimes it's needed.

Speaker 1: 12:22

I think that, you know, another person that comes to mind when we think about on violence obviously is Martin Luther King, Dr . Reverend, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And who also lost his life to violence. Yeah . And again, not everyone is willing to necessarily take that route or pay that price. I do get a little worried when we talk about needed, I think maybe warranted or understood is a better, is a better way to describe it. Um , yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I totally hear what you're saying. Yeah. And I'd really curious. I mean,

Speaker 2: 12:53

Sometimes you need a little, that person needed that probably

Speaker 1: 12:57

<laugh> Oh yeah. In that instance . Oh yeah. Totally. Yeah. And again, we also don't, it's not like we're sitting here condoning violence in all its forms by any means. Right. But recognizing that there are times where a people, a community, or just a group of people in a specific situation are not gonna stand for something. And we need to understand why and what's going on there. What's also very interesting about this particular situation is that the people on this pontoon boat, they were not from Montgomery. Yeah . They were outsiders entirely. And people are trying to use this as a situation to talk about the racism in Montgomery and in Alabama, which is interesting. 'cause these people aren't even from there. Right . The people that perpetuated this incident, though, it, there is also an , maybe irony isn't quite the right word, but an irony in the fact that that exact, I think docker port was where African slaves were brought to like, to Montgomery. Yeah . And the fact that it happened in that place , um, has some significance as well. So we'd love to hear from folks about what you think about, whether it be this incident or about, or , I don't wanna say an incident, but this situation and what you think about pacifism and how we live into that. But also, are there times where maybe it's not the best call or the best, the best choice, or there just call times that you think maybe an alternative route or decision is needed. So write in and let us know at Faith podcast@pcsa.org . And we hope that you'll enjoy our guest conversation with Judea mla , who is the founder of House of Rainbow, who will be talking with us about the situation regarding rights internationally, and specifically in a few , um, countries in Africa. So we hope you enjoy the conversation with today . Well , we are so excited to be joined on this episode of a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast by a very special guest. Joining us is Judee Ley , who is the founder of House of Rainbow. And we are so excited to have a , uh, well , we would say a colleague in faith out in the UK joining us for this podcast. Once again, folks, we're trying to be a little more international and we're so grateful to today for being with us to help us do that. So today , welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 3: 15:22

Thank you so much. It's good to have me here , uh, today.

Speaker 2: 15:26

Yeah, it's really good to have you and to meet you. And we will start off also beforehand, Judea also wrote for the querying the Prophet series on Unbound. And so if you want to go read that, you should go to justice unbound.org and it's all on there. But Judee , we're glad you're here. And we'll start off with our question and , and see where we go. So what is the situation regarding rights internationally, especially outside of the us , what work is being done specifically in places such as Uganda, Kenya, Ghana, and Nigeria? So how would you respond?

Speaker 3: 16:06

How do I respond to that? I wanna first of all say thank you to both of you and also to your audience. And, you know, the work that my organization has been doing will actually reflect on my response in that question. And House of Rainbow is a faith-based organization that actually supports black, African , lesbian, gay, bisexual, plus people reconciling faith and sexuality. Now, of course, talking about the situation regarding rights internationally is very, very important, particularly outside of the us . And the reason for that is because they narrative , uh, is often about, you know, homosexuality is imported from the global North and from Europe. And we really need to begin to address, you know, those issues, particularly speaking from an African perspective, because there are millions of L G B T Q identified individuals who have never been to North America and don't know nothing about Europe and have been accused of being corrupt by the global North. So we need to begin to address that. I think that obviously the other area to address is also the , uh, religious impact as well. We've had , uh, religious homophobia , uh, this is what I call religious homophobia, has been imported, you know, from the global north into , uh, uh, into Africa. Now, of course, the work being done is, is, is grand . It's enormous. And, and , and I think that people like myself , uh, who is of Nigerian heritage , uh, living in England has been the voice, you know, of , uh, decolonizing , uh, religion and also fighting to decriminalize , uh, homosexuality in Africa. So the work has actually broken down into a number of factors. We're doing a lot of work around the political impact . So there are countries in Africa, you know, former British colonial , uh, you know, nations that still carry on the British colonial law , uh, from , uh, colonialism. So, and those laws need to be repealed. They , we need to get rid of those laws. So there is a lot of work, you know, to , uh, sensitize , uh, governments in Africa and also to educate, you know , uh, politicians and academics as well on the impact of criminalization of L G B T persons , uh, in, in Africa. And , and indeed, you know, we , we've got a few countries, you know, highlighted Nigeria, Uganda, Kenya, and Ghana. But there are many, many more. But at the same time, we also need to do a lot of work in creating safe spaces for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender citizens , uh, in Africa. And also our families and allies need a lot of protection. But of course, you know, there is a lot of work as well, you know, on , on those that are fleeing persecution. And recently in Uganda, we've been hearing about the anti-homosexual , um, bill does now become law in, in Uganda, which meant that, you know, a lot of , um, L G B T identified persons , uh, in the country are frightened, you know, they're displaced. And many of them are also fleeing from the country to neighboring countries , uh, you know, such as Rwanda or even Kenya. And those places are still not safe. But of course, for those who find themselves , either in North America or Europe, are also faced, you know, with very stringent immigration, you know, laws or guidelines in those country that doesn't actually allow them, you know, to come peacefully into that country or to settle as soon as possible. And of course , uh, the work , the House of Rainbow is to , you know, is, is there's a lot , uh, I , I have a long list , but one thing I'll say is that we are also doing a lot of work around the theology. You know, we are speaking boldly , uh, you know , uh, on, on decolonizing the scriptures that has come to persecute and punish L G B T people. You know, we are doing the work on helping people reconcile sex and sexuality. You'll hear many lesbian and gay, bisexual transgender people say they don't want nothing to do with the church. They don't want nothing to do with , uh, the Bible. But as a Christian myself, I do understand their , their pain and I understand where they're coming from . But I strongly believe that the Bible does not discriminate against the L G B T community. You know, no one has the monopoly presence of God. The work that we do is to provide pastoral care, you know , to listen to people, to work with families, you know, and religious leaders as well. You know, you know , um, uh, we do get religious leaders that have been very conservative evangelical in their ideas and their ideas , you know, who have, you know , come around and say , look , can we have this conversation ? You know , know I need to understand how to reconcile, how to be a great ally, you know, to the L G B T community, how to address, you know, the mistranslation and the misunderstanding of scriptures, especially the Bible.

Speaker 2: 21:01

And it may help a lot of people understand kind of how the, like the conservative and evangelical mission that is also involved from the us from Europe, from a lot of countries that fund many of these like antique bills and attitudes in the global south. And so I wonder if we can talk about that too. 'cause I don't think people connect it well enough or understand it well enough to, to understand like the actions that happen here in the US and the actions in Europe. We are continuing to colonize places around the world with very toxic theologies. And so I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that. 'cause I don't think people realize that whatsoever in that we are way more connected in this fight for our siblings than, than we like to think about, especially here in the us .

Speaker 3: 21:56

Uh , absolutely solely , I think that one of the, one of the things that I believe that people need to , uh, realize and understand , uh, in , in America, or indeed in North America altogether, is that , you know, the hatred that you see in Africa today is funded, you know, by extreme , uh, extremely fundamental religious organizations from the global North. It is actually well documented. Uh , you know, there was a documentary, I think after the 2009 , uh, impact in Uganda called God Bless Uganda. And it is regularly available. Anyone watch it , you know, on YouTube, you know, it tells you the story of how, you know, organizations like Family Watch International and many other ruthless conservative organizations are actually importing the idea that homosexuality is a crime , is a scene . And also indeed funding the idea on the ground and also proposing legislations, you know , uh, you know, externally , uh, to the people , uh, in the countries. And of course, when you then begin to understand, you know, this , um, intentional violence, you know, you can tell that, you know, from Nigeria to Uganda, to Ghana, to Malawi, and everywhere else around the world, the template of those legislations are the same. And you can tell that it's been , it is been sponsored, you know, by those who really want to cause harm to the L G B T community outside of North America. But lemme say this, you know, for everyone else, every ordinary person that's given a donation, you know, to those churches or those organizations, your inadvertently funding the homophobia , uh, you know, in , in Africa as well. So when you give a dollar or $2, you know, to a course or a mission that these organizations are promoting, you're promoting homophobia as well . So we need to think where we're putting our dollars . Now, the other thing again, is that social media is impacted quite a lot. You know, there's a lot of campaigns that , you know, that are , uh, you know, promoting homophobia around the world, especially in Africa. We need to pay attention to who are the drivers behind this. And of course, you know, there's also the policies around healthcare. You know, and lemme talk real quickly about H I v, you know, h i v is a pandemic of its own, but of course, you know, people have used H I V , uh, and are still still calling it the gay disease, which is very wrong. And we know that this impact sexual minorities, like transgender community are impacted by, by, by this , uh, pandemic, you know, the gay community. And of course, you know, people using drugs and, and many others, you know, that we call key population. But again, you know , when you are looking at the resources for healthcare that's been impacted by extremist view, then that means that, you know, the work cannot be done successfully in places like in Africa, where there's a high H I V related stigma. So we need to begin to speak boldly, like, look, you know , uh, people need to be able to feel safe, you know, when they need to approach their healthcare providers. And that to me is very, very key and very, very important. But, you know, the other thing again, is that, you know, those who are funding, you know, the promotion of legislations in Africa are seated in not American.

Speaker 1: 25:12

I think that's so important to emphasize, because I think that as, as people, in terms of Lee and myself being from the United States, I think it's very easy for us to think that, you know, we export Hollywood. That's, that's like, we export Hollywood, we export products, we export some cultural things, but we don't necessarily think about, for lack of a better word, homophobic conservative attitudes as something that the US is promoting in other places in the world, because it's, it kind of flies under the radar, and you only would know about it if you're in those circles already. So I think it's really important, and I'm really grateful to you for emphasizing this, because this isn't something that we always wouldn't necessarily know about, especially if we're in more, for lack of a better word, liberal and progressive circles, we might not be aware of that because we're not part of the people, we're not part of the groups that are promoting that message. So thank you for that reminder. And I also wanted to ask you about a little bit more around you to , you touched on the experience of people in the global south versus the global north. But I was wondering if you could dive into that a l a a little bit more, because I know about what sort of protections and what kind of services are available in the United States, but I also know that those aren't available everywhere , um, if a person is a member of the community. So I was wondering if you could talk a bit more about the, the experience of people in the South, and particularly in, in the countries that we mentioned earlier.

Speaker 3: 26:51

Absolutely. I , I think that the export of hatred is definitely endemic in this, in, in this conversation. Uh, we need to highlight that. And of course, you know, it is often backup with religion. So the mistranslation of scriptures has helped , you know, to promote the hatred. I mean, there are people of faith that will tell you, I love you, but you are a sinner. You know? Um , you know , uh, you know , I think that that , that common phrase, you know , uh, love the sinner, hate the sin , uh, I would say love the sinner no matter the sin . But I think it's so important that we also need to understand that homosexuality in itself is not a sin, nor is it a crime. So there is really nothing to change. I mean, we are , you know, facing so many things. I mean, some of the things that are now happen , um, you know, it's conversion therapy. Conversion therapy is seriously being promoted. You know, especially when you look at the legislations that have been promoted in Africa. They are wanting to legislate conversion therapy as a form of healing process for people. There is nothing that needs to be changed with a transgender person. There's nothing that needs to be changed for the gay person, you know? Uh, we are who we are by the grace of God. And I think that the other thing that people also forget is that, you know, by promoting the idea that homosexuality is a crime, it actually emboldens, you know , um, ruthless members of the community to carry out other he crime . You know, just a few days ago, I was informed that two people were killed in Nigeria because of their sexual orientation and gender identity. They had gone on a date using social at one of those social media platforms for their dates . And they were met by people who meant , who, who actually, you know, caused harm towards them. Now, no one has been reported that they , that anyone has been arrested for those crimes. And this is something that's happening way across the continent. Uh, a few weeks ago, there was an incident in Ghana where somebody was lured , you know, to a remote area, and it was video recorded and beaten up publicly. You know, and again, we are seeing the crime of kidnapping, gender-based violence against lesbians. They call it corrective rape. Uh, all of these are being done in the name of religion. So we need to be mindful about whose religion are we promoting? Are we promoting the , uh, the , the religion that says that we should love our neighbors and ourselves ? Because for me, right now, this is not adding up. This is not adding up. And of course, people have also made a case that, you know, they want to protect children. The L G B T people that you see today, where once children who's protecting us from the physical abuse, emotional abuse, and neglect , you know, my several organizations will receive , were inundated, you know, with messages of help help me. My parents have just disowned me. I'm homeless, you know, I can't continue my education because they removed my tuition fee and my pocket money. So what I would to say to those people, but you know, all of this are being driven, you know, by conservative interpretation of scriptures, which is completely wrong. And we know we got a lot of evidence to tell the world that, you know, this level of interpretation of religious text is actually harmful, you know? So we need to protect the L G B T community. We need to protect the families of L G B T , uh, people. We need to protect our society. But, you know, I'm not, I'm not in , I'm not actually talking about a gorilla war , you know, but I just want a war that will be filled with peace, you know, that will be filled with love and understanding. And for me, when I meet, you know , uh, a religious leader, a bishop, a priest, even a parent that has a change of heart, you know, for me is like one person at a time that can help to understand, you know, that L G B T people need safe spaces and they need love, but let's us also look at some of the context of this driven hatred against the gay community. You know, many of the legislators, you know, in Ghana, in Uganda , uh, you know, specifically, you know, have said that, you know, they are bringing the anti-gay , uh, law, you know, to protect children, to also stop the recruitment of children. You know, they have lacked , you know, same-sex relationship or homosexuals to pedophilia . There's a great difference between all of these , you know , uh, comparative ideas. But I think what is important here is for us to understand that homosexuality is nothing to do with recruitment of children. I will stand for legislation that will stop the recruitment of any child into any activity, you know, that is otherwise, you know , unlawful. And that is important for us to know, I will stand for the protection of children because children needs to be protected. And, you know, let's, let's make it clear, you know , uh, the L G B T people that we know today or identify as L G B T people versus publicly were once children, you know, who provided the protection for them when they were growing up. But we also need to let society know that being lesbian, being gay, being bisexual and transgender, you know, it is as natural as being left-handed. It's just as simple as that. Well, maybe it's not as simple for those who are actually antagonizing it, but we need to let people understand that, you know, we have come to a time where we need to have that adult conversation, you know, about human sexuality, even within religious spaces.

Speaker 2: 32:20

Yeah. And it's also, whenever children is brought up, I know, especially here, that, that children are being groomed and children are being, you know, like you were saying, kind of trying to be recruited into the community. And the same people who are also saying that do nothing to protect children in the first place when it comes to healthcare , when it comes to aid that children need, when it comes to any other thing that a child may need, specifically here, that conversation is never had. How do we support a child? How do we really get a , how do we really kinda lift up children in our day besides using them as tokens to get an agenda that isn't true? And, and so as you were talking, this conversation is also happening and ramping up and has been ramping up here too. And so it just shows the connectedness of this entire narrative that our children now are being used again to be tokenized and being instruments of hate. And it just, it just really does show the connection that is being done. And, and I wonder, like knowing this connection and knowing how we're kind of all in this together, how are we to kind of be in solidarity in this work? 'cause everybody is gonna ask, what do we, what can we do? How can we get involved and have a more, you know, international conversation about this? So what would you say is, is good ways for us to kind of get into this work alongside you?

Speaker 3: 33:57

<laugh> , thank you so much, Lee . I think, you know, be , before we even get to the good ways, we need to identify the bad ways, to be quite honest. Yeah . Uh , we need to know that, you know, families are destroyed because of homophobia or transphobia itself . You know , uh, families are ostracized, they're stigmatized, and it creates a lot of pain, you know? And if you are a person of faith , uh, a Christian like myself, you are more likely to be subjected to conversion therapy and all forms of , uh, uh, deliverance that are completely unnecessary. But to be quite honest, you know, I, I, I always have hope and I continue to have this hope, and that's part of the reason that I also started House of Rainbow , uh, as a safe space, a community , uh, of Christians that promote the inclusive gospel of Jesus Christ. You know, the gospel that welcomes everybody just the way they are . And of course, you know, we need to ensure that parents have the right resources, you know, to be able to say to every parent that your child is a gift from God, your L G B T children are a gift from God, and no one has a monopoly to the presence of God. To determine or to say that your children are from the bottomless piece of health . We need to be able to provide parents with a reassurance, you know, that they are loved and their children are loved too. Now, of course, you know, it , it , it'll take time, but we also need to create an environment that is safe and the way that the world is going. Now, we also need legislation to protect L G B T people from physical harm, you know, from mental abuse, from conversion therapy. But at the same time, I still believe in the, the, the family environment where we can create what I often call soft landing. So for example, you know, a if an adult is in an environment, you know, and there's , you know, news or there's a conversation about homosexuality, an opportunity for that adult to say, if anyone is gay in my family, I would love them. Because, you know, a a young person , uh, hearing that is more likely to be able to approach the adult at a later time to say, you know, uncle, auntie or mom, dad, you know, you said this, and I just wanted to share something with you, because the reason that L G B T people do not have safe spaces is because we can't talk about it. You know, our environment is already hostile , let alone you want to come up with this thing, this , this , you know, understanding of who you are. And let's also be mindful that a lot of L G B T persons hold onto the , the knowledge of their sexual orientation and gender identity for a long time. And that is why in Africa, and especially in Nigeria, that a lot of gay men and lesbian women marry the opposite sex. And too often is to save themselves, you know, from, from ridicule and from mercury . Now, of course, sex services is very important, and I , and I think even across Africa, where we've seen a lot of hostility against the community, people are also organizing themselves to create safe spaces, you know, for socialization, for, you know, peer support and , um, and , um, and of course many other , uh, uh, social cohesion that's going on, which means that people know that they are not alone , uh, you know , uh, when they're facing all their challenges. And I think that, you know, what is also important is there to be an opportunity for religious leaders, you know , uh, globally to have this conversation. And, and I think that, you know , uh, dialogues are important, you know, a campaign for inclusivity and rethinking of what the Bible says about a , an entire population of sexual minority is, is actually due . Uh , so this , this fighting, you know , uh, who , who who has the authority over human sexuality really needs to stop.

Speaker 1: 37:59

I'm curious about what the, we've talked a lot about sort of the situation that communities face and the ways that particularly North American , uh, groups export hatred. But I'm curious about the work that is being done, sort of ecumenically or in maybe in terms of interfaith , um, to try to protect and assist the communities, especially in the global south. And I wonder if that kind of work is done, obviously it's done partly through your organization, but I'm curious about what work you have seen and what work has been most effective in terms of pushing for, obviously equality and protection, and also just, you know, for lack of a better word, stamping out the , the , this homophobia. So I wonder what you'd have to say about that.

Speaker 3: 38:59

Absolutely. I mean, the , the , the , the work is ongoing. Um , you know, and , and I'm Simon, I , I'm thankful for your curiosity as well. And I think it's important because a lot of people outside of , um, uh, Africa don't know that, you know, we can work with people in the global North and vice versa as well. People in the global North have no idea what's going on and in the global south, so to say. But there's a lot of work , um, let me start. There is an organization that I was also a co-founder. It's called the Global Interfa Network. Uh , they're based in Johannesburg in South Africa. And , you know, the global Interfa network, you know, has been working with a diverse number of faith communities, the Abrahamic faith plus others , uh, that are not within those states to bring a better understanding of human sexuality within those religious spaces. And of course, they also created a , a , a bureau , uh, of speakers so that, you know, people are trained so that they can have the narrative, the vocabularies, especially when we find ourselves in spaces where we are talking about human rights of L G B T persons , uh, as well. And of course, you know, we also need to be looking at the laws, not just the obvious laws, you know, but also other laws like the vibrancy laws, you know, the laws that condemn cross-dressing, for example, you know, impacts on the L G B T community, the laws that demonizes sex workers and people that are using drugs as well also affects the community. Now. And , and of course, you know, who is in politics, you know , uh, you know, are we saying that all of our politicians in Africa, there's no one that is same gender loving among those people? Why are they not able to speak? Do they have the same spaces ? So the work is actually there being done. And of course , um, there are organizations like the Fellowship of a Family Ministries that by organization recently , uh, entered into an affiliation with, you know, we're raising the bar about how we support L G B T people on the ground, you know, also create the pathway for a theological training, you know, an academic theological impact that really will help people. I mean, my organization, for the past 17 years, we have been running programs, you know, and workshops and seminars and conversations you , uh, on what the Bible says , really say in favor of same sex relationship. This a grassroots level for parents and families , because that knowledge is important . I have a good friend of mine who is , uh, openly gay and an imam in South Africa as well, who's leading on the work on what the , uh, Koran says, you know , uh, in favor of same sex relationship. But let's not also forget, there are denominations that are doing incredible work. You know, the , the, the Dutch Reform Church , um, you know, and the Methodist Church in Southern Africa are doing incredible work. And I'll say that, you know, I , I'll speak for the , for the Anglican Church as well, but the Anglican Church is doing a lot of good work as well. But the work that the Anglican, as an Anglican myself, and I can say this is a mostly a grassroots level. There is a lot of work that they, they're doing to create spaces for people. But as a denomination, it still , there's still a long way to go. And needless to say, there are still religious communities, Christian communities, you know , across Africa that are also doing the work. But, you know, the , the , the fear , um, of , of, of , of repercussion against them is too high. You know, I mean, I was talking to , uh, a , a , a senior cla quite recently , uh, were communicating, and of course, even though they were previously homophobic themselves , you know, and for me, they've turned a new leaf and were able to have this dialogue . The question is jde , how will an inclusive theology be acceptable in this day and age without anyone losing their job as a priest? So you can imagine, you know, that level of, of, of, of fear, you know, and we know, you know, there are, you know , there's a bishop of Uganda, Bishop Christopher Ian , uh, you know, who lost his job and his pension for a number of years because he had taken up, you know , uh, advocacy and, and campaign to support and protect the L G B T community . There are people who are prepared, you know , uh, you know, to, to to , to stand in the gap for the, the the L G B T community , uh, in Africa. But it comes at a cost, you know, to those people. And that is what we need to be mindful of.

Speaker 2: 43:40

It's that risk that a lot of us have to take, specifically a lot of us who are like in places of privilege, who have a voice, who, especially here, because we don't have enough conversations like this connected in an international way that whenever we say hear , like we're inclu our denomination, the Presbyterian Church u s a is nationally a very progressive and inclusive denomination of folk. We ordained people, we marry people. It's, it's all those things. But we lack this kind of global awareness of kind of speaking into a bubble and a vacuum. And I know we had this conversation, a , a co a few days ago about what does it mean to, to get out of those spaces that we just want to hear ourselves kind of proclaim how progressive we are when people are actually suffering on the outside. And, and people need to hear something that they haven't heard before, but we're just talking to the same people and we're kind of hearing the same thing. And , uh, and, and kind of in closing, like, what would you say about that? Like, how are we to talk to people who may not agree with us? Because we are so used to talking to people that do <laugh> agree with us when it comes to this. And as a person myself, that is very hard. But at some point, you know, we have to, we have to do that work as well. So what would you say about that as we close out?

Speaker 3: 45:13

I thank you so much , Lee . And I think that as we close out as well, I would say that Jesus said what good it is to love us who love you, love your enemies. And that is where the challenge lies. And I think that it's very, very difficult because too often, even when we gather, you know, we're , we're still talking to the converted . And I think that even though that work is needed, because uh, a lot of L G B T people in Africa also need to hear that they are okay and they are blessed. But in doing the work , uh, you know, having that conversation with people that we find very difficult to have this conversation with , uh, it's just the cross that we have to bear . This is a sacrifice that is needed and that is why it is important to create space for dialogue, you know, so that we have those dialogue in safe spaces. Everyone is invited into that dialogue so that we come out the dialogue thinking whether, even if we have to agree to disagree. And I think for me, with without that, you know, we will be failing many communities. Because lemme tell you one thing, RA honestly speaking, there's still a lot of people in Africa that say to the gay people, I love you, but I cannot accept your sexuality. And they're speaking from the place of love, but also with misunderstanding. But I think that what we are advocating is for them to have an overall understanding. You know, I do not believe in unconditional love. I believe in unconditional love, you know, for the community. It is not something that we can trade. You know , I'm not certainly if you are not going to love me unconditionally, including all of where I'm , then there is no love in it at all . But I think that the other aspect of it is that we also need to look at academia because too awful , the global North have been accused of , of , of , um, importing, you know, the narrative . So let's look at the narrators as well from Africa as well. Let's educate Africans with African knowledge of human sexuality, you know, before colonialism, before the missionaries came to Africa. Let's talk about what homosexuality looks like in those, in those in those years and in those centuries as well. And that will help us as well. Our history will help us as well. And the , the , the one thing is that there are a number of clergy bishops and priests who are changing their minds in Africa, but are still much afraid to speak out publicly. Uh, I , I'm , I'm , I , I'm mindful of that, but is this , is this still an important part of the process?

Speaker 2: 47:36

Well, we are so glad that you are join . You have joined us, and I'm gonna say, I don't think this conversation is ended because I do think , uh, we are going to be more intentional about this and having more folk on that can speak to an international and global, more global and connected , uh, conversation when it comes to our siblings and trans siblings all over the world. And we also want to thank you for the work that you're doing, and it is like an honor and a blessing to have you on the podcast and sending a lot of love and a lot of solidarity with all of our and trans siblings all over the world who are fearful and can't be themselves. So themselves . Thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 48:26

Thank you to you too .

Speaker 2: 48:30

Thanks again for joining us on a matter of faith this week, and thank you to JDA for being with us and having an amazing conversation. And again, we are sending love and solidarity to all of our siblings all over the world who are, who are trans, who are experiencing violence because of who God made them to be. And we are sending love to you so deeply, and we hope you subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Leave us a review. We would love to hear from you, preferably also give us five stars if you have any questions for us in the Faith podcast@peaceusa.org . And check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.