Getting Started in Movement Spaces w/ Samantha Davis

Question of the Week:
How should faith influence media? Or should it?

Special Guest: (20:35)
Samantha Davis, Associate for Gender and Racial Justice, PCUSA

Guest Question:
There are many different groups of people calling for justice such as people of color, women, and the queer community. If an individual or church wants to be part of the push for justice for any of these groups, how does one know where to start? Which issues should be addressed first? Who do we listen to?

Racial Equity & Women’s Intercultural Ministries

White Supremacy Culture - From Dismantling Racism: A Workbook for Social Change Groups

For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith, the Presby podcast. The podcast where we respond to your questions around faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and send us your question because

Speaker 2: 0:16

If it matters to you, it matters to us and it just might be a matter of eight . And hello everybody. Hello Simon. I hope you're doing well.

Speaker 1: 0:25

Hey. Yep . Hi Lee . Hope you're doing well. Hope everyone in our audience is doing well. But if you don't care how well we are, that's okay. You can skip our introductory conversation and question and go straight to our guest segment by looking at the timestamp in the show notes. But we hope you'll wanna stick around because we've got some interesting news to talk about and some stuff to catch up on. But yeah, Lee , hope you're doing well. And once again, folks, again, not to, not to discuss appearances, but Lee has been rocking the wood cabin zoom background for probably months now. And I gotta admit, I'm pretty jealous.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Yeah, it's great. I should change mine and especially, well, especially now. So everyone, if you have sciatica problems, send in all the ways that you deal with it because I am now having them. And it is absolutely terrible. Like, you know, you, I'm not old, but I like to peop , I like to tell people I'm not young. And so when stuff like this happens, I'm just like, ugh . Like I worked out and then all of a sudden, like the nerve on my leg is like going wild. So if you have sciatica things, let me know how you handle it because it's wild and it's not fun. That's why I'm standing up right now. You can't sit down really. But that's just,

Speaker 1: 1:51

I honestly couldn't, I could not tell you're standing up because I'm standing up because your Zoom backgrounds 'cause your Zoom background's the same regardless of how you are positioned. So

Speaker 2: 1:59

Yeah, I am standing up and nice, that's all I can do right now. And I have to lay on the floor 'cause it , my back has to be straight Mm . And I do my stretches everything else. But yeah, it's weird. It's weird. Fair enough . But enough about my body, <laugh> enough about my body. What do you have in the news for us , Simon? There's a lot.

Speaker 1: 2:19

Yeah, there is a lot. Well, this is kind of an interesting story. Um, so, and it, it strikes a little bit close to home to me because I lived, grew up in the Maryland DC Virginia area. Grew up watching all of the sports teams in that region, including the Baltimore Ravens. And more recently it's come to light that , uh, the former N f l player, Michael Orr, who played on the Baltimore Ravens and was the, the whose life story is the subject of both the book and the film, the 2009 film, the Blindside. Um, he recently asked a court to formally end his legal relationship with the family who took him in. If you don't know Michael Orr's story, basically he was someone who grew up in, in great poverty and was adopted so , and met a white family, was adopted by them and then be, would go on to become a very, very good , uh, football player. And so it is, it is in some ways like a classic, you know, rag not rags to riches, but feel good comeback story, right? Yeah. Uh , but it seems that maybe not everything was quite as peachy, for lack of a better word as it seemed. Uh, so Michael Orr has asked to the court to formally end his legal relationship with the family who took him in claiming that he had never actually been adopted and that he had been tricked into signing away his decision making powers so the family could make millions of dollars off his life story. Again, we don't, I don't know the truth, that makes me sad to hear if that is the case, but I guess it just goes to show us also that we don't always know the full story. And I even when the blindside came out, Michael Orr always said, oh, there's some things that aren't accurate.

Speaker 2: 4:13

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:14

And he was always upfront about that. And there are some things that have been , uh, dramatized. I don't know if this part of it I expected. And again, we'll see what happens as investigations go on, but just remember that the power of the story and the narrative and who controls it really does matter.

Speaker 2: 4:33

Yeah . It really does. Going kind of off of that though, how things are created and how things like the intention behind things and things like that, there is a movie called The Sound of Freedom, which is about child trafficking. And it was created by , uh, these, this production company based from brothers. Uh , and this is based off of a Washington Post article called The Brothers Who Sold Fate and Sound of Freedom. And it's basically talking about how these brothers who are Mormon created these movies and like all this kind of thing within media that expresses faith in a way that is pretty explicit, I would say. But also how this specific movie, the Sound of Freedom, has been co-opted in many ways by like Q Anon and has in many ways oversimplified what it means to what it means in the world of tri child trafficking. And so it's kind of taken another life of its own, but it just puts into question the role of faith within these, I mean, these brothers are also going to tr have tried to create something called , uh, avid Angel, which is a program that will censor out cuss words like explicit like imagery. Like this is like the words they're using things that children shouldn't see. Quote , that's the thing. But they were in a lawsuit with Disney and other big production companies because it was like tapping into like encrypted stuff and DVDs and going in and changing things. So that's like a whole other thing about like how, and that brings us to our question really out of all of this, all this kind of thing. How should faith influence media? Or should it, yeah . What would you say Simon?

Speaker 1: 6:32

Well, I just wanna throw a small Easter egg in there 'cause this is more just a coincidence. But , um, the film stars, I wanna get the name correct. Uh, correct.

Speaker 2: 6:43

Oh, the passion of the Christ

Speaker 1: 6:44

Guy . Yes. The , so the, the star of the film, the Sound of Freedom is , um, I believe his name is Jim. I'm gonna, might mispronounce this, but Jim, it's

Speaker 2: 6:53

Jc 'cause that was like a big thing.

Speaker 1: 6:55

Yeah , yeah. JC Jim Zel who played, I believe played Jesus in the passionate of the Christ. So there's some interesting just like crossover sort of coincidental , uh, circumstantial things going on there. But I do think that for one thing, it is possible to create something and then someone takes it in a direction that you never intended it or for it to go or tries to use it for a political reason or to push some sort of agenda. And I think that that has to be said that once an artist puts, or anyone who creates anything puts it out there, it can be used and it may be used in ways that you didn't intend for it. So I think that that, that just needs to be acknowledged upfront . With regards to the question about media, I think that there's a really tough <laugh> . There's a , there is a , a tough line to follow and to walk. I think that some people would love to see faith more closely integrated or at least having some impact on media. Others, and others would push aga back against that very strongly separation of church and state, for example. And also freedom of speech, right? Depending on which way you go with that, you could use that to justify more or less religious or faith involvement in media. I think that maybe what is better is just that folks be upfront about the faith component if they're gonna make something right . That doesn't mean you need to tag it, you know, this is the Christian one. I'm not saying that, but I think it's fine if you say, Hey, we are making a film about a justice issue, or I made a project about a justice issue and there's an element that is gonna speak to people of faith. Yeah . That is gonna call to them. It'll call, it'll be , it will appeal to everyone. It will call everyone to action. But there's gonna be an underlying, you know, appeal or an urge that, hey, if you're a person of faith, this should matter to you. I think that's okay. And that can, and that can be done in ways that are tasteful, that don't distract from the core message and also don't necessarily alienate from uh , uh, you know, people that are not religious or part of a faith community per se. But it's hard to do and it's different depending on the art and form of media that you're talking about. So it's, it's complicated. Yeah . I , I see it both ways. I think that some people would say you have to not have any faith in there because if you did, you run the risk of alienating the most number of people by doing that. Right . That's a and that's fair. Especially if your purpose is to make money.

Speaker 2: 9:56

Yeah. And reach a broader

Speaker 1: 9:59

Audience.

Speaker 2: 9:59

Audience. 'cause do slash everybody, not everybody's a Christian, right? That's one thing <laugh> like somehow, I mean, I know how Christianity has made everybody think that everybody's a Christian, which that is not the case. In fact, that's less of the case. And I think that in many ways when it comes to media, like the, I think there's a difference between faith and morality mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And I think that our faith influences our morals. But I don't think necessarily you need that to influence your morals, if that makes sense. Because I know people who don't have, who are not religious, who are not, who are atheist and agnostic, but they have morals. Like they have a morality within them just to look at a different human and say, you are human and you should be res treated with respect. Now there are people like me and other folk of many religions that have a religion that influences their morals and how they act in the world and how they treat others. Now, if that is what you want a movie to reflect, fine. But when it becomes apologetic ap apologists where you're trying to say, my faith is better than yours, or you should be following my fate and not yours. Or you should be following this fate if you don't have one. And media is then used to as a persuasion of choosing fate. I'm not on board with that. I think for me, if you are gonna make a movie, if you're gonna make art for the public consumption, morals and morality should reign supreme. Other than I don't need to see a movie about Jesus being hung on the cross. I don't need to see that as a Christian. I don't wanna see it. I don't need to see it. I don't need to see movies. I don't need to see touched by an angel, which was a huge success. Oh, I

Speaker 1: 12:17

Watched that when I was, I watched that, yeah . When I was younger. It

Speaker 2: 12:20

Was on network television, like c b Ss or something. And, and I think there's also ways that media can be used to turn what faith means on its head. Like I like that, like where there's ministers who are not what you stereotypically think of as a minister. Like there are different ways, or a rabbi like gentle , like that was something that changed the mentality within the Jewish community. Like I think that there's a lot of different examples of not just Christianity, but ways in which faith has been integrated into media that isn't apologists, it's storytelling. It isn't saying this is how you need to be, that you should be following this specific religion. Like, I, I don't, I don't get on that track. I think that's very dangerous to me. But at the same time, you can do what you want. But when it comes to the consequences of what you've done, that's a different story. I think for me, media or anything really should be in to be telling us that humanity is diverse in all of its makeup and we should all treat each other with dignity. That's like the overarching thing .

Speaker 1: 13:50

Yeah. Yeah. I also think that we'll see examples of maybe not in independent films, but certainly in bigger, more blockbuster style media of, and examples of companies sort of trying to have it both ways. And what I mean by that is, this is not necessarily face specific, but this is representation and justice oriented, this example I'm about to say. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . So for example, in the movie Star Wars, the Force Awakens, there's a scene at the very end of the movie where two people who were not even main characters in the film, they're just like, there you see in and you , it's pretty clear they are the same gender. Yeah . Or at least they present that way it looks like, I believe like two women hug and kiss. Yeah. I think, I think that's right. It might be two Men, I can't remember. But, and it was like, oh wow, star Wars is being inclusive. Disney is being inclusive. But the thing is that that scene could also easily be cut when the film was released in China.

Speaker 2: 14:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:54

So in that example, I would say, oh, is the commitment to the message really there or is it just about trying to appeal to certain audiences when it benefits you when it's hip or when it's cool or when it seems like the progressive thing to do. Yeah . And I , I recognize that's not, not, that's not faith specific, but as someone who does believe that our faith calls us to be inclusive and accepting, I do support having that in a film like Star Wars. But I don't just want it shoehorned in there either for the sake of being there .

Speaker 2: 15:29

Right. It's thinking it about it a little deeply. Yeah . But like take it on the other side if your faith expression is more conservative

Speaker 1: 15:39

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:39

That's where, that's where faith for me gets complicated because there are people who worship the dehumanizing of people. I don't necessarily think it's worshiping a God. I think it is worshiping that. And if you say that's your faith, that to me is not, that don't classify as fate to me. So it depends on what that means. And there are movies out there. I mean, if you ever seen Left Behind

Speaker 1: 16:13

Series, I have not. But I have heard about the books, I have seen the trailers

Speaker 2: 16:17

And I think, I don't think we also know the power of this too. I will never forget it. Like once you see it, that's just like the passion of Christ. I don't know why they took us to see it. I'll never forget it. But it's just those, I think, and this is on the media side of, of how it impacts people. And the church needs to hear this, this movie will impact far more people than what the actual church will do. In a way it will be in the in front of the eyes of millions and millions of people. The passion of the Christ was in front of millions and millions and millions of people. And so because of that, media impacts how we vision and visualize our faith and spiritualities and it impacts how other people do too. And so for the progressive church that often downplays media, y'all need to listen up because this is ramping up on YouTube. This is ramping up on all streaming services. So where are we in the mix? Like where are we influencing through our faith but through our morals to say, you can't write you to talk to Disney and say you can't just put something in there like this because that in and of itself is wrong . And that in and of itself is playing into capitalism. They just wanna sell the movie. And just like these people want to, they know who they're catering to . So it's the power of media that I think this whole conversation is that the church needs to realize that media impacts people far more . And I will say this as my opinion and people can argue me all day long, it impacts the moralities of people's lives now more than it ever has. Go watch Heart Stopper on Netflix and you tell me that that doesn't impact your morals about people because it is a powerful show of joy and, and the awfulness of high school and middle school for people Now that has impacted a lot of people. Millions. So if we sleep on this like we have been, I say it all the time, we have to take it seriously because that is some people's church to be honest.

Speaker 1: 18:55

Yeah, totally. And again, to sort of back to the representation issue, we know media matters because for example, I'm a nineties kid. Yeah. I didn't grow up with a lot of Asian American actors to look up to. I didn't see myself represented in the things that I watched a whole lot unless it was sort of a typecast thing that really matters. And similarly, people get their ideas about what love or romance is from media. Yes . And that can really, really impact what they think when they enter into a relationship. Yeah . So it's not like we're just talking about this from only a faith perspective or only from sort of like this very hypothetical situation. It's a real thing.

Speaker 2: 19:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:48

And it's important that we talk about it. And so we invite all of you to write in and let us know what you think at Faith podcast@pcsa.org . Let us know what you think about the relationship between faith and media. Where are times that you've seen faith expressed or done well in media and maybe some ways or areas that it hasn't been done well. And we also hope that you'll be sticking around for our wonderful conversation with our guest, who is Samantha Davis, the associate for Gender and Racial Justice with the P C U S A.

Speaker 2: 20:29

So joining us on the podcast today is a very special guest. We have Samantha Davis with us, who is the Associate for Gender and Racial Justice Board , the Presbyterian Church, u s a. Samantha, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 3: 20:44

Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Speaker 1: 20:47

Yeah , Samantha, we're really grateful to have you with us and to get your perspective on a question that we have written in which reads, there are many different groups of people calling for justice, such as people of color, women and the community. If an individual or church wants to be part of the push for justice for any of these groups, how does one know where to start? Which issues should be addressed first? Who do we listen to? What would you say to that?

Speaker 3: 21:20

Yeah, I think this is a really great question and a question particularly in the past few years, I will say , um, I've heard more and more often for individuals or churches as a collective who are looking to get involved. Um , there's a number of places to start. Um , one would be really assessing yourself or your church allyship is great. Being an accomplice or co-conspirator is great. And also what fuels us tends to be our personal connections. So asking the question as an individual, what am I connected with? Whether that is because I've benefited from this and I had privilege in this area, or because I've been harmed, hurt , impacted , um, by this. Maybe that's housing. Maybe that's , um, police brutality. Maybe that's economic stability. Right? But each and every one of us, regardless of your race, your gender, your sexual orientation, each and every one of us has our own story. Um, and those stories are powerful and connect us to the larger issue. Um, so similar to the church, for the church to do an assessment on what is our history , um, how have we contributed to the social ills that we see? Um, or how have we been harmed by the social ills that we see? Um, and I would say start there from that point, then educating yourself about those issues, about that history and culture there. Doing the work, reading the books, Google is an amazing thing, right? And so we have so much access that folk did not have access to. Um, so making sure you're doing your own research, doing the own work to educate yourself or your congregation. And then bringing in from a church perspective, bringing in the marginalized book within your congregation. Um, creating a space to see if this is even something that they want support in . Um, or seeking , um, some assistance and being in community and conversation with them pretty directly. Um, and following their lead around what are the issues marginalized folk in our communities and our churches are going through? And how can we be an ally to them?

Speaker 1: 23:29

I like that you started with listening and asking as opposed to mm-hmm . <affirmative> sort of, and especially asking in your local community. 'cause that's where frankly, you can probably have the most impact. But it's also where you have the most direct access to get an answer and to get Absolutely. To get an understanding. I think sometimes it's easy to just see the sort of the big headline that sweeps across a country or a state and assume that that's what everyone in the commu in that community like needs in that moment. Which may be true, but it also might be different. The situation might be different in your local community. And so reaching out to find out, I think, is so important. 'cause the worst thing that would happen is people start assuming that they know already or they respond to something that is not actually grounded in their local context.

Speaker 3: 24:21

Absolutely. And it, I love that we we're centering on a local change. Change happens, all change happens on the local level. All change happens on the local level. Um, and that's also where the, the relationships are possible. All change also happens through relationships, through individual personal relationships with each other. And so when we recognize that and we value not what we're hearing on the news necessarily, but what we're hearing from the people closest to us , um, that's how we can really make some , um, movement , um, and progress forward when we're relationship, when we're building relationships with both , when we're assessing what's happening locally and making those, making those connections and not making assumptions like that. You said that, that too. Lean into curiosity. Ask the questions, be inquisitive. Certainly don't take what you hear on the media or read in , um, news outlets and run with it. Don't big don't do that. So

Speaker 2: 25:21

Yeah. It's so easy. And it's, and that's kind of like the easy thing to do. And, and I think in many ways, especially like kind of where I'm from, I'm from rural South Carolina, and you know, that community is, is so, is kind of spread out in a way that like, unless your family, unless like, you know, like you have some kind of relation to that person, like those kinds of relationships are hard to kind of like develop because of the isolation in some places. But , and then like the news becomes, like the way you get to see things and like the way, you know, kind of think, you know, what's going on. And that's where like a lot of these news outlets like manipulate all this stuff and, and everything else. And , but I also wonder like what are some good ways to kind of like start to build relationships? 'cause me and me and my husband were talking about this the other day 'cause we're like, it's really hard to make friends as an adult. Yes. Or it's hard to build relationships as adults because of, I mean, I wish I was like a kid, like they'll just kind of approach like whoever and like start talking. Uh, but I wonder how we like, create those relationships, especially after like the height of the pandemic of covid . Whereas like we know that's still going on too. And so, and there's been an uptick in, in cases as well, so everybody should know that and still, you know, protect yourself. But like for me, it's been very hard to kind of get back into that rhythm mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And so how , uh, what would you say to like, how do you even like initiate these kinds of, that initial start of building a relationship with a community or with people? Because I know people just don't know how to get started even in that really.

Speaker 3: 27:13

Yeah, that is such a great question, Lee . And something i I struggle with even outside of this context, right? Um, I think as, as the adult and someone who's like extremely covid conscious, what I want people to sit with is you are already in relationship with people. And see that as a starting place of who are the relationships I currently have? Whether those are like your long-term friends, your family members, your , um, associates or acquaintances, your colleagues, your church members. Who are the people that you're already in connection with? We're not talking about strangers when we're talking about building relationships with your community. Um, who are the people who you, who are literally in your community, who you have access to, and do the work to deepen that relationship, do the work to check in on one another, to see how people are doing to ask questions and actually want the answer. Not how are you, oh, you're good, great, but no really, how are you? What's going on? How can I support what's impacting you? What conversations are we seeing , um, happening in this world? And let's talk about that. Let's work with each other to unpack and learn and like do the, that work. So when I say relationship building, yes, absolutely at some point would love to walk down the stream and see a stranger and get to know them , um, and be in allyship with them. But that's, that's not for everyone. And that's also not where like the genuine authentic relationship building starts. And so start with the people who are in arm's reach, deepen that relationship with them, bring them into the conversation or you enter the conversation that they're having. And eventually when it comes to expanding, like that group, they're, they're also connected to people. Um, and so there's kind of the kind of six degrees of separation type of thinking. Who else can you then learn and grow with that you might not have access to in arm's reach? That's what I would offer. There might be some people who will be like, go to this event and go to this place. Those are options too. If you're someone who is not as socially awkward as I am , <laugh> , um, <laugh> and , and want to get involved, there are plenty of organizations that have community meetings, that have workshops and training. So if there's an issue that you are interested in and you do want to go out and meet new people , um, and learn, I would say find local organizations, local groups within your community and see what they have. Oftentimes they have things on a monthly or bimonthly basis for people who are interested in being a part of their group. Um, here in, in DC there's several community-based organizations that literally have monthly meetings just for people to come in, be a part of what's going on. That could be for speaking as a, as a black person. Um, and I'm sure there's groups in all types of categories, but groups like the Urban League, right? They have, it's a social group doing work that you can enter in that way. Groups like black Youth project 100 groups like Carius , Wildes Dreams, right ? There are, there are groups locally here in DC where I'm based, but also nationally , um, B l m , um, that are groups of civically engaged, justice oriented folk of all backgrounds. That could be a way to show interest, deepen your understanding, and deepen those relationships with new people.

Speaker 1: 30:51

And building those relationships requires a certain amount of willingness to also be uncomfortable. Absolutely . I also like that you used the word cur absolutely curious earlier because the places you go, the people you meet, the journey you go on may not be exactly what you expect it to be. I think that some people start out asking this question, but really they just want to start the umpteenth soup kitchen in their area, if that makes sense. Yes. And which I'm not saying that that work isn't important, but there are much deeper issues and other issues in everyone's local community other than , uh, strictly food access or, or poverty in that kind of , uh, that manifests itself in that kind of a way. And so I appreciate that you've challenged us to think about what it means to be curious, but also to be uncomfortable because that may make , if we're willing to do that as people who are interested in trying to actually see change, there's a much greater chance that all the solutions don't look the same and all the, the projects or the things that we, that we do. Um, and similarly, it's the solution is likely not always going to just be write a check. It can't just be write a check if you're trying to build relationships with folks.

Speaker 3: 32:08

Yeah . You can also write a check though, but

Speaker 1: 32:11

That is very important. Don't wanna , don't wanna discount the power of financial support by indeed .

Speaker 3: 32:16

Yeah. But yes. Yeah, absolutely. I I like to use the phrase productive discomfort and knowing that, particularly when we're talking about justice work, that one of the reasons inequities and disparities continue to thrive is because we've all been conditioned to think about groups in certain ways. Um, and so when our ideas are being challenged, it feels like we, like a part of our identity is being challenged and therefore it causes some discomfort. And as humans, we, we seek comfort, right? We seek safety. And so oftentimes we confl being uncomfortable with not being safe. And so I like to challenge people to push past that, to really sit like, is this a safety issue or is this a comfort issue? Am I feeling like my identity is in question? And I am I feeling as if I'm not prepared , um, adequately for this conversation? And am I pulling back from that? Is this something that I was taught early on, whether i, I realize it or not? And so like asking yourself that question I talked about doing like the individual work and assessment and lean in to that productive discomfort, that's where we grow. That's where we're able to identify the, the differences and the needs. And so those conversations also though, are best to happen. Which is why I keep going back to like who is, who is within arms reach of you. I don't like to say that like change starts with like yourself or like change starts in the household because sometimes it, it , it can cri particularly with marginalized communities, it kind of criminalizes the , the family structure. Um, and so I don't mean it in that way, however, particularly for privileged folk, the people who you are most likely to influence are going to be those folk, right? It is going to be the racist uncle. It is going to be the auntie <laugh> , uh, or the cousin, right? Who has caused harm in some way or or the other, the rich father who is a capitalist, right? And you see how they show up, right? It is those people who you have to be willing to engage in those productive and yet uncomfortable conversations with if we're going to like find a starting place and move towards justice.

Speaker 2: 34:30

Yeah. And oftentimes , I know, especially like with my family, particularly when it comes to issues and, and being an ally and, and in solidarity with the community, I mean, I've had the hardest and most uncomfortable conversations with a lot of family members about it. But those people have made progress and change. Yeah . And it's also kind of talking in that it's, in some ways it is like us talking about doing that interior work. And it , and I always go back to like authenticity as well, is that, you know, living into who we are and doing that work and seeing who we are is also something that is, so, it is more change than any, it can induce more change than a lot of people realize. Yeah . And, and I think often we, we don't talk about that enough in a way that like that would in and of itself is an invitation for people to also do that work as well. And how we extend that invitation is being who we were created to be. Absolutely . And I think a lot of times ly like it is kind of a parallel process or it's all happening at the same time because I mean, I'm constantly figuring out who I am and I'm like a very, like, and, and if I have a revelation, like it's like I kind of, I'm going through it right now, <laugh>, it's like, yeah , it , but, but I think being open to that and being receptive of who we are too, it just seems to me like that's also a point of curiosity as well. It's like, I wanna be curious about who I am as well. Like, I wanna find out who I am . And, and in that radiate so much further, like I've had people reach out to me in like my little community of Jefferson, South Carolina of 700 people who are also and never knew how to like, you know, reconcile those things or like yeah . Family members. And so I do think it is like this a more, it is more of like a curiosity journey that, that we see that change. But I also want to go back to the writing the check and how in some cases and , and how we wrestle with that too. Because I know in some, in some like very progressive circles, that idea of financial assistance is also being troubled in , in good ways, I think mm-hmm. <affirmative> , but also to the point to where I'm like, no, but we, you still need to give all your , give your money away because <laugh> Yes , you've got too much and how you got it Yes . And how your institutions have money. So I wonder if, if you could talk a little bit about that too, like what, where's the conversation with financials and all those things? Because I think sometimes we get a little too, now we're kind of backing away from the money, and I'm like, no, no, no, no , no. You need need to get all away <laugh>.

Speaker 3: 37:25

Yeah, absolutely. Before I go into that, just wanna really appreciate your point around like living your own authentic free life and how that's an example. Something I absolutely live by my, my mother in particular is always like, you tell all your business online, like you , I'm like, I do, I write, I write about my story. I like am very unapologetic about every aspect of who I am. And I do that not necessarily be agitated, although I welcome agitation, but I do that as an invitation knowing that if I'm able to live freely , um, and as my full self, then that creates space for others to do that. And I do think that is an extremely important aspect of resistance of justice , um, is for us to be able to live as freely and as authentic as we possibly can and through storytelling. So another way we can do that through s storytelling is, is how that creates that space and opens it up for other folk. We had to normalize all the things that people have told us are not normal, especially as people. Right? This, this is my story of how I, how I am a mother of twins, right? And this is a process i, I went through with my two gay dads, right? So like being just open and honest and using your story as a place to create space, absolutely. Something that people can start doing immediately. Money. So, and all of the work for justice, I will say that there is a aspect of movement spaces of justice spaces that people hesitate to redistribute funds in that way because they're looking at it as, we don't wanna just throw a check and walk away how traditionally charity work acts . And we're not asking for money as charity. We're asking for money and other resources as a redistribution of power and resources to marginalized communities. And people should continue to funnel those resources to marginalized communities and extend beyond that to say, how am I now going to be in partnership, in relationship, in solidarity with these communities versus writing a check and doing nothing more. So the check is needed, the resources are needed, they're necessary, but, and then what? Um, and don't write checks with checks , with containers, with contingencies. Trust the community, trust the group. Trust the people who you are investing and who you are, redistributing those resources to , to know that they know what is best for them. Um, they know how to use those resources. And so the other thing that we see often happening, even in progressive spaces still is I'll give you this money, but you have to do X, Y, and Z and you have to do things the way I tell you and you can't use it in this way. That's where that becomes problematic. And if you're going to do that, in some cases I will say don't worry about it. Like I won't take the check. But for those who are authentically and genuinely trying to support and be in solidarity with marginalized communities, a part of that is certainly not just time, but tangible resources.

Speaker 1: 40:39

Uh, going back to part of our earlier conversation about building relationships is that I think that's also, I I've been just sitting on that while you all have been continued the conversation, sorry. And because I , I just really love that. And I , and the reason I bring that up again is because when we think about, for example, the , uh, the writing of a check and the redistribution of resources and wealth , I think that there is a , a a chance that people inadvertently perpetuate the very type of system that they're seeking to, to undo or to change. And what I mean by that is white supremacy culture will tell people in power, specifically white folks, that the, you know, that they have the power and, and amongst them , and then get the marginalized groups to compete with each other for what seems like power, when really they're just fighting amongst each other. And that keeps them all down. And then on the flip side for the marginalized folks, it's, we need to compete for the scraps that those in power will even give us. And then it just perpetuates the whole cycle again. But if you are building relationships, you probably are going to very easily recognize that, oh, these are not competing voices that I, or , or competing needs. They are all real needs, but I'm not gonna make the determination of what is a priority myself. I'm gonna make that determination based on listening to those who are most impacted, which I think is such a key distinction between someone in power making a decision about a priority about what to do with money or what to do in the community compared to, again, like you said, building that relationship and then writing that check and following up with action and following up with resources.

Speaker 3: 42:42

Absolutely. Absolutely. You mentioned white supremacy culture, and just to dig a little bit deeper in that , um, particularly with white folk and white cisgendered men , um, however, white supremacy culture impacts all of us. And so would even challenge those of marginalized communities to think about the ways that we have even internalized some of this, the , the behaviors when we're talking about resources and wealth. But even when we're just talking about like this, the initial question of like, where do we get started? A lot of those hesitancy and things that come up with us are like, due to white supremacy culture. So part of white supremacy culture is paternalism is this idea that there has to be one person who's making the dec the decisions that it is power hoarding. It is that right to comfort going back to being discomfort. And , and people often complaining that with , um, feeling unsafe, it is individualism. And so all of these things we have to actively, all of us have to actively challenge and be curious about is what is showing up for me in this moment? What is showing up for me when I write a check? And I want to control how people use that money. White supremacy culture hands down, right? As a church to bring churches into this conversation directly. Churches historically have been some of the most, when it comes to social justice movements or, or movements have been on either on one or two sides. They have either been perpetuating and very, like blatantly perpetuating the harm and the hoarding of resources in communities, or they have been places of safety, a a safe haven for people where people can share responsibilities , share resources. And so churches have a huge role to come into, and I would say easier access than individuals do when it comes to this question of how do we support our community, where do we start? Is particularly churches that have brick and mortar, right? How are we opening up our doors to the communities? How are we letting them in? How are we getting rid of all of those things that white supremacy culture teaches us, where we're limiting people's access to our, to our building , um, where we're making all of these arbitrary conditions for how people use our space or when they use our space, or what issues they're talking about in our, in our spaces , um, how we're using the offerings that are coming in the doors, right? All of these things and the decisions behind this that so many churches really hold true to religion or theology are really just perpetuation of white supremacy culture. And so as a starting place for churches, I do think part of that assessment that I mentioned early on is looking at how some of your actions, some of your practices, some of your policies are doing the opposite of what you might want to do in terms of supporting the community. Um, and really looking into that and shifting those to, to start because it really is boiled down to white supremacy culture and that that we either internalize or perpetuate unknowingly . Yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:43

And I think that's really helpful on like the local congregational level and like the institutional level, which is where we like all work <laugh> and all on this call work too. Uh, and it's, it is like a constant, it's a consistency to keep also like the accountability of it as well and what that means and, and how to keep accountability within institutions within structures to also keep in front of themselves. And always asking these questions too , because, you know, no matter what we label ourselves as progressive or whatever ev all institutions are going to be, are going to somehow perpetuate these things, especially if accountability is not there. And especially if we're not constantly saying, well, well what about this? Like, like what about that? Like, kind of constantly kind of that curiosity as to what is happening. And so I think it's just a great reminder on any level of the church that, that how , also, how do we create a culture of accountability as well? Because I know for me, and sometimes and people take things personally and it becomes a very like, personal situation between people or people get mad about like the challenge of authority or the challenging of certain things. And so I wonder also, how do we create, how do we create a culture of accountability that is also, that also moves us forward, whereas I don't know how we, I don't know how people can't take it personally, but like how do we kind of keep that, that grounding of accountability that's grounded in love and you know, like us wanting to move forward in the work of justice. How do we kind of frame it in those ways? Like, 'cause it , it does take that accountability too to do any of this

Speaker 3: 47:39

Accountability is a challenge for all, for all of us <laugh>.

Speaker 2: 47:43

Um , but

Speaker 3: 47:44

I do believe the reason is, is , is a challenge is because, or where it's the greatest challenge is when we are not in relationship with people. Yeah. Um, when something is being told or asked of you or someone is checking in on you and you don't feel as connected to them as others, you're going to take that , um, in a certain way. And defensiveness, I will say is also a characteristic of white supremacy culture. So I think in order for us to truly be accountable, we have to do the work of not being defensive and really listening and hearing , um, what a another person , um, or community is asking of us. And to also know that if there is a, if we are showing up in a way that is defensive or in a way that isn't responsive to the need, then we're likely not moving from a place of center. We're not, we're likely not grounded in our actions, in our behaviors. And again, that takes some, some in , uh, internal reflection that's needed there. I do think what also helps with accountability, particularly when you're in community with people , um, if you're a group, if you're a church, is having a set of values. What are our values and how do we operate as a body? Are we all equally committed to , um, I like to enter any type of workshop I'm doing , um, or if I'm holding some type of project is what are our community agreements? What are our norms? What are we operating that all of us are actively agreeing to? That way when we have these standards that are, that collectively we have come up to together and we have all signed off and agreed to that accountability come , it makes it a little bit easier. We can say, Hey, remember that we all committed to doing this and you said it was important that it happens and I agreed that it was important. That's not happening. Let's talk about it. Um, and let's be, be curious again as to like why that's not happening. What needs to shift? How can I support you in doing that? This accountability isn't to point fingers, but it's to say, we are in this shared commitment together. We are on this shared journey and we are in this together. So if something's not happening, it's not necessarily for you to get it together and fix it, but it's for us as a community to lean in, be curious about why it's not happening, and to make the necessary adjustments together in a way of support and love. Um, and not in a way of this individualism or , um, this kind of like pointing the finger that I feel like happens in all spaces, including movement spaces.

Speaker 1: 50:21

Yeah. The, it's so easy to see things sort of devolve into, oh, well this didn't happen because you didn't do it, or, or because they didn't do it. And so then it, like you said, pointing fingers judgment and then like blame mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And then you're lost in, I don't wanna call it semantics, but you're, the people get lost in emotion and then they're not, they've lost track of what the actual issue was in the beginning when it could be resolved in a different way to keep things moving forward for, for progress. Samantha, we are so grateful to you for coming on the podcast and to un help us unpack this, this question that I think a lot of churches have. And we did wanna just give you a moment to shout out and highlight your work , uh, with Racial and gender justice, which is in the, within the Presbyterian church. U s a is in racial equity in Women's Intercultural Ministries, which we will have a link to in the show notes as well. But wanna give you a second to talk about your own work. Uh, if there's anything you'd like to say thank ,

Speaker 3: 51:17

Thank you. Yeah. Really honored to work in the office of , uh, gender and Racial Justice. Our work is really rooted in the Matthew 25 vision, particularly looking at anti-racism and looking at heteropatriarchy both from a gender , um, perspective as well as a sexual orientation perspective. What that means and why that's important to the churches and individuals who are listening. The mid councils, what have you who might be listening, is we are a resource to you , um, to be active in this call , um, of a welcoming of creating welcoming spaces , um, for all people, for those at the margins . And so if you have questions around how to deal with some of these isms, racism, sexism, how to deal with issues around LGBTQ plus ia , um, we have plenty of documents and resources for you all to use as a tool. We offer trainings, we offer advice, and so please feel free to reach out to us. We're also building a network of white allies , um, who are interested in doing this work alongside us. And so if you are listening and you are white and you identify as Presbyterian , um, then we would love to have you a part of this white allied network where you'll continue to learn and unlearn , um, some of the things that we've been taught around our people and where you'll be able to step in , um, and support in the work. So knowing that this question was asked, because people want to join and get involved in the work, and that's a perfect place , um, for that to happen.

Speaker 2: 52:59

Awesome. Well, again, we will put the link to all the things in our show notes. And Samantha, again, thank you for joining us and having this much needed conversation.

Speaker 3: 53:12

Absolutely. Thank you all so much.

Speaker 2: 53:20

Well, thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Faith , the Presby podcast. And thanks to Samantha for being with us and for that much needed conversation. Thank you so much. We hope you subscribe wherever you get your podcast and we hope you leave us a review. Leave us some stars, go follow us and check out our website, a matter of eight podcast.com. If you have any questions for us, send them to fate podcast@pcsa.org and we will talk to you again next week.