A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Welcome to A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us and it just might be a matter of faith. Whether it be faith in God, faith in others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Office of Faith-Based Investing & Corporate Engagement, the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program, and Unbound: An Interactive Journal on Christian Social Justice for the Presbyterian Church (USA). Submit questions to faithpodcast@pcusa.org. LISTENING GUIDES FOUND IN PODCAST SHOW NOTES.
A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Sober Spirituality w/ Erin Jean Warde
This week we are sending all the prayers and love to our siblings in Maui!
Special Guest: 7:30
Rev. Erin Jean Warde, Episcopal Priest, Spiritual Director, Recovery Coach & Author of Sober Spirituality: The Joy of a Mindful Relationship with Alcohol
Guest Question:
We don’t talk about the consumption of alcohol in our faith communities very often. But we know there are Christians who struggle with alcohol. There is also a spectrum of experiences and relationships that people have with alcohol throughout their lives. What does it mean to have a healthy relationship with alcohol (if any), particularly for people of faith? And for those who do struggle with drinking, how we can best walk alongside them?
Sober Spirituality: The Joy of a Mindful Relationship with Alcohol
Presbyterian Disaster Assistance Hawaii
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
<silence>
Speaker 2:Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith, the Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and , and send us your question because,
Speaker 3:Because y'all, if it matters to you, it matters to us. And if it's up to us, it'll be a , a matter of faith . So that's welcome. Everybody's right . Hello. Hope you're having a good week. Having a good week. Had one whenever you're listening to this, but how are you, Simon?
Speaker 2:I'm doing okay . Uh, Lee and I are preparing to see each other in person as part of , uh, some work travel, which is always a pleasure to see Lee in person and be reminded how much shorter I am than he is
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Well, you actually <laugh> . Luckily Simon and I fly to the airport at the same time , and as I said last week, I'm having like some sciatic issues and when I sit down for a long time, that's when it hurts the most. So just imagine me standing up in the airplane and then walking. And so Simon though, our height difference, and I'm a lot bigger than Simon too, <laugh> and , but Simon may be having to carry me through the airport . <laugh>.
Speaker 2:I'll just ask for one of those, you know, wheelchairs that I can push you around and Yeah,
Speaker 3:You got a lot of core strength, probably more than mine, so you can, you can handle it.
Speaker 2:Uh , we'll see. <laugh> , but I hope, I thought what I thought you were gonna say is that it forces you to stoop, so maybe we'll be in the same height .
Speaker 3:No, no. There will be no stooping. 'cause I can't really do that.
Speaker 2:Ah , fair enough.
Speaker 3:Right now.
Speaker 2:Well , everyone, if you don't care about , yeah , right. Hopefully, so. Well everyone, if you don't care about how much we're stooping or not stooping, that's okay. You can always cut, jump to the timestamp for our guest segment in the show notes. But we hope you'll wanna stick around and we're recording this a little earlier than usual because of said travel plans coming up. And we just wanted to touch on a couple recent events before we get to the guest segment. The biggest one obviously being the fires in Hawaii and in particularly in Maui, that have caused so much destruction and, and death and just kind of chaos.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I recently was driving through Yellowstone National Park and I saw a little bit of, you know, you'll always see a little bit of the remnants of a recent fire because that is part of nature, right? Yeah. Dead trees, they're sort of got that whitish color, there's nothing alive around it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's interesting to drive through a national park like that, and you see that and you go, okay, that is like, that is nature. Don't be too alarmed by it, or at least that's what I tell myself. Yeah . But then when I see these pictures of what's going on and what has happened in Hawaii, I'm like, something's crazy. It looks so apocalyptic, especially when you get to see cars and buildings just totally ravaged by fire. It looks really, it's just something that is very, it's like hard to look at. Yeah. So obviously we send prayers for all of the responders, all the victims, and people affected. I know there's also been a lot of political things going on , um, regarding the response and what, how maybe things should have been handled better. Yeah. Regardless of everyone's thought on , thoughts on that. Still prayers for the people there. 'cause that's hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And if you wanna get involved, I do know the Presbyterian disaster assistance is ha we have partners all over the world , but they are in partnership with a lot of people in Hawaii. And so we'll put that, that link in the , the show notes. But just things to be careful of during this time and just how the world works. I mean, there are a lot of like native Hawaiians who are on Maui who are saying people are calling them to already want to buy their land because, you know, they don't have, they , they're just taking advantage of people. And also when , whenever it comes to disaster response, there's a lot of questions about do you send stuff, what do you do? And I think a lot of people are saying, send money, but where you're sending it, do the research. There's a lot of scams out there. And the main thing is just don't go to Hawaii . Don't, don't go right now. I think that's the biggest thing I've been hearing is that like, don't go, because it is, there's a lot of things that happen at during this time that that can be very disruptive. And I think that that is something I've heard a lot of. But one thing that I, he , that I did read is that on Maui, there is Hawaii's oldest , um, I'm gonna not say the word right, but it's a tree. It's like one of the oldest types of these trees. And they thought it was going to be lost , um, on Maui. And it turns out that , uh, it survived. And it is , it's, it's one of those things that it's still, there's still a lot of work to be done, obviously, but it's also something that's very precious on the island, and it is, they think it's gonna survive and bloom. And so it's just kind of that, like , hope within this. But there's just a lot of things that are happening that I think are that, that there's a lot of things that need to be said when it comes to colonization and our native Hawaiian siblings and all those things. So yes, if you wanna get involved, just do your research.
Speaker 2:Yep . And again, when Lee says don't go, what we're, what we're getting at is that there are other, there are certain resources and attention that should be given to the , the relief and response. And Yeah. If you have a vacation planned right now, maybe this isn't the best time. I mean, I'm not saying don't give , I'm not saying don't put money into the local economy 'cause that does matter. But you'll understand what we're saying here about attention and use of resources. Yeah . We've seen this before when there's been a major disaster. And for example, major sporting events will, or organizations will choose not to hold their planned event because they know that resources need to be given to relief Yeah. In response. So just keep that in mind and we hope that you all will enjoy our conversation with our guest, who is Reverend Aaron Jean Ward , who is an Episcopal priest, spiritual director and recovery coach, and the author of Sober Spirituality, the Joy of a Mindful Relationship with Alcohol. So we hope you enjoy our conversation with Reverend Aaron Jean Ward .
Speaker 3:Well, joining us on the podcast today is a very special guest. We have Reverend Aaron . Oh gosh, we should have did the name Aaron Jean Ward . Reverend <laugh> . So joining us on the podcast today is a very special guest. We have Reverend Aaron , gene Ward, who is an Episcopal priest, a spiritual director and recovery coach, and author of Sober Spirituality, the Joy of a Mindful Relationship with Alcohol. Aaron , welcome to the podcast. We're so great to have you.
Speaker 4:Hey, y'all , uh, thank you so much for hanging out with me today.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We're really grateful to have you with us, Aaron , and especially to talk about a topic that I don't think it's talked about enough in the faith community, especially , um, sometimes in more maybe mainstream context, but definitely not, not in the church. And that's about about alcohol. And so we have a question written in that says, we don't talk about the consumption of alcohol in our faith communities very often, but we know there are Christians who struggle with alcohol. There is also a spectrum of experiences and relationships that people have with alcohol throughout their lives. What does it mean to have a healthy relationship with alcohol, if any, particularly for people of faith? What would you say to that?
Speaker 4:I mean, first of all, I would say it's a good, big important question that really hits all the different spaces of my ministry. Um, one of the things that, that I think about when I think about this question of our conversation around it, especially in faith-based spaces, is that , um, I have a background in fundamentalism. And so I was a fundamentalist Baptist in Alabama, and now I'm an Episcopal priest. And what I've kind of witnessed is this spectrum of , um, fundamentalism saying like, do not ever drink. It's wrong, it's bad, don't do it. And flipping over to being in a context where, and this isn't exclusive to the Episcopal Church, but being in a church context where it is the opposite in the sense of it's like, oh, Jesus drank wine, ergo we should pour another glass. And when I think about that, one of the things that really sticks out to me is that neither of those mentalities around alcohol are actually mindful, because when we just say, don't ever drink, it's wrong, it's bad. We're not actually taking into account the reality of alcohol in our culture, the way it's going to show up to us in some way, shape, or form, and the biological challenges, or any of the other sort of weight that it holds in our discourse and in our lives. And when we switch over to using sort of the presence of alcohol in scripture to become the reason why we drink to excess, we're also not reckoning with the weight and reality of alcohol in our culture today. So when I think about what it means for us to, to come into this with a, with a mindfulness around health and mind, body and soul, I think starting from a place of acknowledging that there is a middle way that we can start wherever we are in that process, wherever we are in the pendulum, to begin to say, yeah, I think it actually is important for me to recognize the reality and magnitude of alcohol in our culture because it shows up, and this is in the question that you ask , it shows up in so many different ways. Um, when we encounter people, especially people in our churches, or even people we meet through friends, how many times do we meet a person and immediately know everything about their family of origin? Right. We don't, and so going into these encounters saying it may not even be this individual person's relationship with alcohol, and yet the reality and magnitude of alcohol in our culture and our world is still influencing what's happening here in mind, body , and spirit, and also in how we care for people.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I know specifically like this is a Presbyterian podcast, although we have a lot of people listening from all over, but I do know there is this, there can be this weirdness within certain denominations about alcohol, because sometimes within our own denomination it's like, oh, they're the ones that drink. And then there's like jokes about it, like, we're drinking a lot , uh, and things like that. So there's this weird culture even within the church and even within this particular kind of tradition. And I've noticed specifically in some context that we are often, so we often have this mentality that that's just accepted all over kind of the place Mm . When it comes to being in this particular denomination or a particular tradition. And I just wonder, you know, becau and then we have these these ways that we don't accommodate for people who are trying to figure out this balance of sobriety, figure out this balance of you had their relationship with alcohol. And so I just wonder, within these contexts, how do we, you know, walk alongside people and be a lot more mindful and kind of more proactive within our spaces with folk who are having this kind of, this journey when it comes to sobriety or being more mindful about alcohol?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I thank you for the question because I think it's a question that I really encourage all faith communities to be asking, because something that I think it's really important to say is there is no community that is not affected by addiction. There is no such thing as a community in the world that is not affected by addiction in some way, shape, or form. Which means that any community you're in is a community where this work is vital. And I happen to be a priest, you know? So I think about, you know, the ways that I've cared for communities in the past and the role I have in caring for them, but that's also a just a Christian value, right? Like, I don't have to be a minister in order to know that caring for the people around me is a part of what it means to be , um, in , in Christian community, a part of the body of Christ, and also in other religions, right? Like, that's not specific to even Christianity. But when I think about the question of how to, to really support people in that, there's kind of a two, a twofold part of it for me. O one of it is very practical, which is taking a second to ask yourself what role does alcohol play in our community? Um, I have been in churches that I think have a drinking culture or had a drinking culture in which anything that was related to any form of celebration really needed to be, we needed to have wine and beer at that or, you know, work of like events that we had. They all needed to have some form of alcohol present , um, social events at the church, needed to have alcohol, that kind of , um, feeling around things. I've also been in churches that don't really do that. Like they have other ways that they gather. And so being able to just take a second and check in with all of the different ways that your , um, smaller communities within your , your community are meeting and, and getting together and asking, is this a place where if a stranger, if a visitor who was sober came in, would they be able to do anything other than worship? And in the Episcopal church, we use wine with Eucharist. So for some people they might might say, oh, I can't even worship. And so is there a way that we could offer non-alcoholic wine , um, that's allowed in , in the cannons in the Episcopal church. I won't speak for the Presbyterian church, but just beginning to sort of have that almost , um, kind of like a secret shopper mentality of if we were to have a secret worshiper who was sober, go to every event in our church, what might they think about our community? What would they feel like they could join? Um, would they ever come back? Because that's a very real question. And I think about that a lot also in the conversations about church decline. Because if we actually look at like the New York Times, Washington Post, all of these major news outlets, they're writing articles about sobriety. And one of the things I really noticed when I was privately sober and was, was serving in a church is why are all these secular news agencies talking about sobriety? But I don't hear anyone in the church talking about it. And that was actually part of what called me into wanting to write this book, was the idea that I saw this, this gulf , this void that I wanted to try to offer, offer some, some speech into. There's also a lot to be said for fun, attractive non-alcoholic options at all of these social events so that a person who's visiting is able to say, I went, I had a great time, I didn't need to drink alcohol, and I was able to go home. I also always wanna layer in that there are lots of reasons why people don't drink. There also might be people who aren't drinking tonight. You know, they , they may not be sober people, but they might not wanna drink tonight and they probably wanna drink something other than Diet Coke. And so while this is hospitality related to sobriety, hospitality is also just a biblical mandate. And it should meet us where we are regardless of whether or not this is even something that we are focusing really intensely on in our spiritual lives. So I think being able to bring an inventory into our communities, a compassionate, kind, loving inventory into our communities is a huge step forward. 'cause that's that mindfulness, right? We're bringing mindfulness into our community. And the other side of this that I , uh, that I often respond when people say, I have a friend who's struggling, how do I help them ? Which I think your question speaks to that as well, right? Like, what about an individual we know who is really struggling and needs support? And what I always say to people is I say, the first thing you can do is evaluate your relationship with alcohol. Because what often happens or can happen is that a person is like, I'm worried about you. I think you need to work on your relationship with alcohol. The way you did this really concerns me. And what that might do is it might stoke a lot of defensiveness in the person. Um, there's a an obvious feeling of being singled out in their behavior. And what that typically makes us do is it makes us shut down. You know, when a person comes to you like that, it doesn't necessarily always encourage change. And as a coach, I'm always thinking about what's motivational and what's demotivational . Because as a coach, I'm trying to get us into motivation toward habit change. And that conversation rarely ends up being motivational. But imagine a conversation where you go to your friend and you say, I just did try January this year. And I was really shocked by how much I noticed how much alcohol was actually pretty central to my life. And I kind of didn't realize that until I stopped doing that. And I don't know, October is just a couple months away. I'm thinking about doing another sober October, just another like month to reevaluate. And I was wondering, do you wanna do that with me so we can have some like accountability and some support in this together? Maybe like when we go out with our friends, we know we're like in it together. Would that be something you would be interested in? That conversation is invitational. It's saying, I have actually been doing a lot of work on this and I, and I know I wanna keep focusing on it. Would you like to join me in the work that I'm doing? And I think you'd be surprised how much that opens up the door for a really shame reduced way of loving our friends and people in our community toward bringing mindfulness into their own relationships with alcohol. So I think it's a good question. It's an important question. And those are just two ways that I would frame kind of communal support as well as individual support. I
Speaker 2:Really like that you keep emphasizing that everyone's relationship with alcohol is shaped by the , the , their own life and also their own context. I know folks who don't really partake because they had experiences or family members of theirs had experiences growing up that were not always positive. And so they, they just choose not to, which is totally fine. Like that's not a, there's not a , like a judgment in that. And it's not like they sit there judging everyone else who does partake. They're just like, that's, you know, I just, I don't feel comfortable with that for myself. And, which I think is a very, it takes a lot of courage to make that decision and also still be in a place that isn't judgmental , whereas it's so easy to be on the other side. Whereas if you are someone who say, is partaking in a social setting to be like, oh yeah, hey, why don't you, you know, have a glass of wine, have a beer, have whatever it is, and then even though you're just trying to be welcoming, it's like, no, no, I'm okay. And then it's like, you know , yeah. Respect that person's choice regardless of where it comes from, because that's really important. And context is also so , so important, as Lee was saying, because it's different outside of our own, even like our own faith community. Yeah . Um, I remember I served as a young adult volunteer in South Korea through the Presbyterian church. Oh, wow. And in South Korea, there is a sort of like a, it's not a stereotype, but like a somewhat of a cultural association that if you're Christian, that means that you're not out like partying, you're not like drinking a lot, which is , again, that's a generalization, not necessarily a truth in every situation. Um, but that is something that exists in that culture. Again, that doesn't mean that someone who is a Christian isn't gonna go out and, and, and have a drink. It's also very interesting because that exists within a also a cultural context where, I'm not sure if people know this, but like people in South Korea really, like in South Korea, they like to party and they party late and long . So it's interesting that both of those things can exist within one cultural context.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that anyone's individual relationship to different aspects of that culture varies depending on the person. Similarly, here, again, it just depends. And so I think it's just an important reminder to us all that it really does depend and that we just accept each person's story as it is Yeah . However they, however they choose to share it.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And it sticks out to me too, you know, something I've always really loved is I have a lot of friends and communities in my life that actually aren't Christian at all and are, are kind of learning a lot through, through being friends with me. And I've had people say to me like, I didn't even know there was the such thing as a drinking culture in the church. Like, it would never occur to me that that was a thing. Um, and so that's been an interesting feedback as people have encountered my work. Uh, but one of the other things that, that I think you're hitting on is this, this question of like, how are identities come into play with this? Like, oh, your identity as a Christian means you must not party, but also in this culture, there's an identity of cultural identity around drinking. Right? And I was thinking about how , um, you know , uh, when I look at my relationship with the church, there have been the , these moments where , um, you know, because I was a fundamentalist part of my identity was that we didn't drink. Right? You know, you imagine footloose like <laugh> , we don't do those things. Those things lead to sin. And then to become Episcopalian, one of the interesting things, and again , it's not just the Episcopal church. Um, it's in lots of different faith communities and different denominations, but part of the identity is we're a drinking church. We're not like those fundamentalists that we are rebelling against. Right. Because I was one of those people who deconstructed before it was cool. Like I was , uh, you know, I'm a little bit older than the current trend of, of deconstruction. And so , um, you know, it was part of our identity that was cool and important that we drank because that was how we responded to what felt like the oppression of that fundamentalism. And so for me, realizing that that identity was kind of , um, via negativa, it was this way of sort of , um, creating an identity out of the negative that wasn't super helpful in the long term . But when you think about how identity comes into play , um, identity is one of the hardest , uh, aspects of this when it comes to change. Because when we look at , um, something we do, if I say, yeah, I wanna change this habit in my life , um, that is one thing, but when it feels like what I have to change is who I am, the roadblock to that habit change is much higher. And so one of the things that I , uh, I kind of wanna encourage people toward too is trying to take identity out of the way that we understand alcohol and culture. Um, because when we project identity onto that, like for instance, there's this language of being a whiskey palon that's a , a , a term people use for Episcopalians. And I'm like, that's not saying I am. Me and I happen to also drink, you're saying my identity is alcohol. That then then means it's much harder for me to lose alcohol if I decide I want to later in life. And for me, I mean, my identity had become really interwoven into alcohol. And, and that wasn't entirely because of the church, right. The church was one factor into that. But my spirituality, who I am, you know, I was a part of all of these different things that had alcohol as a part of them. And so I was just listening to you talk about that. And I just think the identity part of it and acknowledging that when our identity is knit into that, those threads are incredibly hard to unravel. So if, if all we do is start to kind of tease and pull that identity out of it, we're already creating ways that will help people down the road if they come into the discernment and awareness that they don't want to drink anymore or, or that they just don't want it to be their identity. That's the other thing is you don't necessarily have to quit drinking in order to say, I don't like how this rules my life. Like, I have some clients that are like, I don't know if I ever wanna be sober, but I know that I don't like that I drink every day . And I know I don't like that my friends think I'm a whiskey man. Like, I know I don't like these associations and I wanna begin to shift and change 'em .
Speaker 3:Yeah. And it's even in, you know, like theology on tap type things. And like, there's a drink called a Presbyterian on the our side. It's like a whiskey and ginger ale . I mean, this guy's his own name. And I do think in some ways that that identity of what it means to be a part of this group is, is interwoven in that. And it does create this sense, you know, it does create this sense of, well also how do I belong to this group? This said group too. And so like communally that communal identity also impacts this kind of insider outsider type thing. Like, what do I have to do to belong to this group? And, and that's a whole different kind of way that's a whole different like mind switch and like mind gymnastics, especially if you've been hurt by the church and you're looking for places and you're looking for spaces of belonging. And a many of these, not all the time, but a lot of the times a more progressive type of church is often a drinking church, and they've kind of taken that on. But I, I wonder in some ways I wonder why that happens that we have to latch on so much to something that makes us look cool. Like I think that's something that the church is, is always kind of a victim of is how do we look cool? How do we seem cool? How do we like, yeah. All those things. And it's almost inauthentic in , in some ways, but it's also that sense of belonging. Like how do I belong to something that I like, you know, the theology or I like the, the, the social justice aspects of this church, but at the same time I'm going through, you know, this kind of change in my life when it comes to that specific thing we call alcohol and drinking. And, and I have really, that has changed in my life so much the older I get. Mm-hmm . You know? Yep . I hardly have a drink anymore. Like it's, and if I do, I have like one <laugh> . And, and I do think, like, it is, it is even a change for people to accept in me because I, whenever I went out, I went out hard and I wasn't , I am a good time and, and I know that about myself, but it is also like what also made me feel like, crap, I can't wake up in the morning anymore. I can have one drink and I feel like crap for a week. Like, it's like a, one of those things that it's also this identity within us that people have to accept mm-hmm . <affirmative> and change and kind of adapt to in a way, like that hospitable thing we were talking about. Uh, but yeah, it's so interesting how alcohol and that and how certain faith spaces have reacted to it in, in many different ways. So, so yeah. It's just kind of fascinating to see.
Speaker 4:Well, it's very fascinating and I was kind of laughing internally when you were talking about how like, we want to be cool and I kind of always like cringe at when church tries to be super cool. Yeah . Because , uh, part of it is scarcity. I think it's this fear of decline, it's this fear. And so we want to be, you know, the, the buzzword is like, relevant. Like how are we gonna be relevant? And, and I I, I get that right? And I have been a parish priest and you certainly wanna do things that engage your community and that welcome people in, but it feels like such a misnomer that we would then think alcohol is the draw. Like this thing that actually might really deeply trigger trauma in people or that could literally kill someone. Like why is that something we think is the draw here? And another really interesting thing I'm noticing, and I don't have the statistics, so I I admit that, but , um, I , I've heard that Zoomers really aren't drinking. Um, that, you know, I'm a millennial and millennial back , you know, we've had these drinking cultures, but the alcohol consumption is just much lower in, in Zoomers who, you know, I always feel like I have to tell people like, millennials aren't super young anymore. <laugh> like ,
Speaker 3:No, we're not. We're in
Speaker 4:Our , we're in our mid to late thirties and forties. Like, I mean, you talking about how one drink, I'm like , we are not , that's the millennial vibe right now is we're not as young as you think you are. Zoomers are actually the quote super young adults you're trying to attract to your church. And culturally alcohol consumption is super low in those contexts. And so it's important to note that like, it's not even a draw really to the target demographic. I mean , I hate to use marketing terms, but like, if your target demographic is zoomers, then I don't think theology on top is what's bringing them in. And so truly to, to get into that space of like, we want to quote , be cool or relevant and really welcome in the , this demographic that we fear isn't attending the church. Actually what's trending in a lot of sort of zoomer context is social action. And so what a gift that actually the answer is to return to what we believe to return to faith in , in , in action , faith in practice. So what an encouragement, I hope to hear that, you know, the idea of sort of lowering the alcohol intake on your church campus or shifting your culture around that might actually be really supportive of growing your church in the demographics you hope to grow.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's interesting to me that we say, we, we talk about church decline, right? As, as you mentioned, and we talk about that pretty often on this podcast <laugh> . And it baffles me that there might be churches that are trying to attract young people, they're trying to fight the decline, but they would rather spend their money on trying to attract young people through like, good food and maybe having some beer and wine around when, what actual , as opposed to putting that money towards like social justice action in their community or sometimes even doing the bare minimum, like making sure they have affirming language and student , uh, and , and , um, and language and like statements or speaking out on something. Like if it's a choice between going somewhere that is making the state the social justice statement in action, but doesn't give me a drink once a week versus the one that will provide food and alcohol once a week but isn't doing that, I know which one I'm going to choose personally. And sometimes I feel like that gets lost. It's also a point of privilege to be even, to have enough funds to be able to provide that, which not all of our churches do. And so I think that that's a , a point of just a question for our congregations about like also what we choose to do with that money really does say a lot about who we are. Um, I also really appreciated the, when I think about people's personal relationship to alcohol, and as you were saying earlier around identity, that someone who drank a lot at one point in their lives and doesn't drink as much later on, that person's relationship has changed. And therefore their identity is not always fixed because their relationship with alcohol is not fixed. Lee mentioned earlier, not partaking as much later on in his life, I also know people who at the height of the pandemic, that was the most, they were drinking by themselves because it was a dark time and it remains still, you know, to still loom as, as a cloud and a shadow over us. And I know other folks who were like, you know what , um, there's nothing more depressing to me personally than the idea of drinking a lot by myself. So they drank the least they ever did during the pandemic. And now I think we're, and and now I think people are dealing with the whole, each of us experience this situation differently and our relationship to alcohol has changed. What does that mean for us moving forward? And similarly, I think we need to recognize that as we get older, simply our body's ability to, ability to tolerate different types of things, whether it's serious exercise, a lot of alcohol, or even a little bit of alcohol, it's all gonna change. Yeah. And that, that's something that we have to, we have to come to terms with that ourselves. Otherwise we do risk damage to ourselves. Again, not saying people can't enjoy, but that is a biological truth as well. <laugh> .
Speaker 4:Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I'm always the one to bring up the biological truth. And so it's nice for, for someone else to say it. Um, no , you mentioned Covid and Covid has been such an interesting experience for me to, to be in as a human being, but especially as a recovery coach because , um, and, and someone , as someone who researched for this book about what the toll is, 'cause you're right, we still live in the shadow of that. And, you know, I thank God every day that I had already quit drinking before the pandemic started because that, I just look into that and I think, gosh, I know how difficult that was for me as a sober person and something I say all the time to, to my clients, many of whom started meeting with me during Covid because they were like, Hey, I , this has gotten out of hand and I just need some support in that. Um, you know, during the pandemic, so many of our positive coping mechanisms we're not accessible to us at all. Right? Like, I couldn't go over to my friend's house and flop down on the couch and watch Netflix with them. I couldn't, maybe you couldn't go to the gym, right? Like all of these things were inaccessible, but Instacart could put a six pack of wine on your front door, quote safely. And I put scare quotes around safely, right? And so for many people, it's like you were doing the best you could with whatever coping mechanisms were accessible to you. And so trying to de-stigmatize that and say, you know, you're not a failure. You were a person trapped in your house while we did a modern day bubonic plague. Like give yourself some credit for the fact that, you know, you were doing the best you could. And also now you're like, but I'm not in that situation anymore, but these habits have persisted. So now that I'm not trapped in my apartment 24 7, how do I start to shift these patterns? Um, a really startling statistic that I came across when I was doing the research is that in 2020, in people under the age of, I think 65 more people died from alcohol than covid , um, alcohol kills 3.3 million people every single year. Right? Um, so the death toll and the magnitude of that is similar to Covid in some ways, right? And so acknowledging the weight and pain of that, but also looking into it to say , um, there is hope after that. I think there is support after that. Um, so for me it's that mix of de-stigmatizing it and then also saying, okay, now given that reality, how are we gonna move forward in a way that feels more conducive to caring for yourself? And um, you mentioned also the thing about identity. And I think not projecting is really important, like being able to receive people as they are. Um, there are so many reasons why people don't drink and they don't owe that to us. Hmm . Um, especially people who have trauma histories. Um, which is why it's so important when someone says, no , I'm good to just be like, great. Um, I've been in situations where people like kept being like, are you sure you don't wanna drink? And I'm like, I'm positive. I'm good <laugh> . And, and it's kind of like I'm at a point now where I know that that is about that person and I'm able to parse that and to sort of wish them well in whatever they're dealing with right now. But it doesn't change the fact that one of those hosp hospitality movements is when a person says, oh no, I'm good. I'm not drinking to be like, great, well we have this, we have that. Like what are the other things that we can just kind of immediately offer you that would be something that you're more interested in drinking.
Speaker 3:Yeah . Yeah. And that also I think about the coping, how we cope specifically with a lot of people who are in leadership in the church, and, and I often don't think we talk about that at all, is that there are leaders in our churches and there are leaders in our faith communities and every parallel or like organization that is attached to the church that I know are struggling with alcohol addiction and that that is something that the church in its culture, even though some ways we uplift alcohol. But when it, when we talk about addiction and we talk about when it's impacting our lives to the point to where our health is deteriorating or we have done something, I think that that space, like we like the fun, but when it gets real, the church kind of runs away. Mm-hmm . And especially when it's about the people who are leading our churches, church leadership and faith communities can be very isolating for ministers. Yes . Or whatever you call yourself. And specifically being in a culture where alcohol is something that isn't kind of shunned away. I wonder about that too. And are , and, and people who are doing the work kind of on the front lines in leadership where there is a lot of shame and there's a lot of secretiveness to Yeah . To all of it. Because congregations can't handle that in some ways. And so I wonder about that too, like, because it happens and Oh yeah , it's going to happen. And I just wonder about those dynamics too as we're talking about sobriety and how also our leaders, how we as people who may surround them as well and what it takes from us to kind of walk with them too. 'cause we kind of elevate it so much in the church, our church leaders when they're the ones that may also need a lot of walking with too. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, I received this as someone who got sober while she was a , you know, rector, which is like head pastor, right? Yeah . So I was the only full-time employee at my whole church, right. And, and I quit drinking. Um, I had moved. And so it was kind of a good way for me to set some patterns that were different. Um, but I, that's a complicated story, but I, I empathize with that because one of the big questions I asked is I was like, is this gonna affect my ministry? You know, it's so embedded in the church. Is it really gonna be weird for me to be a pastor to people, you know, is , or will I lose people whether they're friendships in the church or elsewhere? Will I be able to go to all these conferences where alcohol is so plentiful? Will that be something that's super triggering to me? Like, will my job be be incredibly triggering to be <laugh> and what does that mean for me long term ? You know? Um, so I'm very compassionate toward that. And it probably won't surprise you that a lot of my clients are clergy of , of a variety of denominations who are seeking the support of a person who understands the demands of ministry. And , um, and I, and I say clergy, I mean ministers of all different sorts, not necessarily ordained, but you mentioned like anyone in leadership in the church. And I think it's important to acknowledge that can be lay, that can be, you know, volunteer just the people who are really carrying the weight of the ministry of that part of the body of Christ. And, and I think you're right. Like it's a huge challenge, you know, especially if you're in a context where people have power over you, because maybe I'm supposed to go to my bishop, but, you know, one thing I know about that is my bishop has a lot of power over me. And so the openness I might have might make me think, what if I lose my job if I disclose that I'm trying to change my relationship with alcohol? I shouldn't tell my congregants. That's not, that's not appropriate disclosure, you know, that I'm struggling in my relationship with alcohol. And so it becomes really, really important to, to both set up those truly exterior support systems. And in some contexts that's really hard to do. Um, I was a small town rector, and so external contexts weren't a reality for me. Right. I went, I started , um, being a part of an online community around sobriety. 'cause I didn't know that I could find it locally and also be private about that part of my life. And so, you know, one thing that I really hope to be for some people is a, is a person outside of that power structure that they can begin to, to look into their relationship with alcohol around, but who also understands the demands of ministry. And , um, I have also been doing some work with , uh, like ecclesial authority people such as bishops and, and um, diocese areas that really want to do this work as a whole diocese. And I hope to encourage , um, people toward having someone outside of the system where you can refer people. So , um, you know, my expertise may not be your expertise. Your expertise isn't my expertise. But do we have a really robust list of referrals where we could send people who are struggling with many different things, but do we have a person we trust where we can say, you don't even have to tell me, but I just want you to know that we have a point person. Please reach out to them. They would love to support you. Because there is that tenderness around privacy and it being really shame inducing because we stigmatized it as a culture that means that it's all the more important that we have those resources that don't seem to threaten the person. Because the reality is, if I think that the support might threaten me, it's not supportive. 'cause the likelihood of me turning to it is so low. And I don't say that to criticize authority. I'm just saying the reality is you can be the best ecclesial authority in the world, but at the end of the day, you can still remove me from ministry. And, and that dramatically affects my life. So even if I have a fantastic relationship with you around something that is so worldwide, culturally stigmatized, it's just understandable that a person might have a little bit more fear engaging in that conversation. So having those safe places where they can go to begin to have these , um, conversations is vital.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And especially in our setup is that it's not just one person that has power over you. It's a whole group of people, <laugh> and Oh, because it's
Speaker 4:Congregational, right?
Speaker 3:Well, it's like session led . And so it becomes a whole different dynamic. Not only are you dealing with one person you're dealing with probably like eight, and I do think it's like a , it's a, it's a very like, complicated thing. And so Yeah. Sure . External that's great. Yeah. Whatever external resources people can have. 'cause yeah, imagine dealing with that <laugh> like eight different dynamics. Yeah.
Speaker 4:No, I can't. And like the idea that I would go and be vulnerable in front of a committee, and also it's the appropriateness level, right? Like that's also not necessarily something that I would appropriately unload on you. Like I have to learn what are the correct places to take it. I can take it to therapy, I can take it to a recovery coach, I can take it to a recovery community. And just making sure people know these are tools that are accessible and available to you that might be able to support you and being really , um, talkative about it. 'cause the other thing, the way that we started this whole conversation is that this is something we don't really talk about. And to begin to say things like, we as your church who loves you so much, we know that there is no such thing as a community untouched by addiction. And we want you to know that we recognize the presence of this pain. We want to love you in it. We want to be present with you in it. Um, you'd be surprised how many people, you know, I'll, I'll preach like a recovery Eucharist, and they'll be like, I'm so excited that someone's talking about this. And it won't necessarily even be a person in recovery, but they'll be like, my brother died of maybe a drug overdose or something. And it's always been weird to me that the church doesn't talk more about this very active challenge that is everywhere. I mean, I can't open up New York Times without seeing something about the opioid crisis. Like, why is the church so silent on something that is truly in our backyards? And so the more and more we can begin to just have the conversation, you know, obviously there's some people like reading my book, which is great, but there's also tons of other books you can read as a congregation asking yourself in whatever congregation and community you're in, what's the next step in just talking about it? Right? Maybe we're not gonna make huge, you know , we're gonna change our culture, right? But let's just start talking about it . Let's just say, yeah, for our parish book club, we're gonna choose a book about addiction. Who knows what could come outta the woodwork. The second you begin to say, we're willing to be a community that stakes it , its identity on caring about addiction. Because again, if we're gonna talk about what might bring people into your church, guess what? A lot of people are struggling with addiction <laugh>. And I think people struggle and they yearn for hope for, for the comforting words of scripture. And so imagine a world where your community actually becomes known for being a safe haven for those who struggle. And imagine what that could offer in gifts and joys and growth in your community.
Speaker 2:I love that. And even for folks who maybe wouldn't even say that they're addicted to something, they just want to make a change in their lives. Yes . That's also okay. You can engage in something recreationally and then just be like, you know what? I don't really like how this is making me feel right now, or I just want to do something else with my time or with my money or change the way that I'm interacting with these people or with this activity. And that's okay too. But I think it has become so stigmatized, particularly around alcohol, that it's like, I, I'm gonna step, I'm, I'm just not drinking right now. It's like, oh, did you have a problem? And it's like, did I say that? No, I'm just change making a change of behavior. And again, everyone's context and story as you said at the very beginning is very different. And that people can go on that journey too with you if you want to. And with, again, like you said, appropriate disclosure and, and sort of permission to walk alongside you. Um, but Erin , we are so grateful that you came onto the podcast to talk about this with us. We will be sure to have a link to your book in the show notes so people can check it out. And once again, thank you for being on the podcast.
Speaker 4:Uh, it's been a joy. Uh, please, if you're listening and you're looking for a safe place or a support , um, if there's a way to contact me on my website, I'm on social media , uh, would love to to hear from you if you feel called to reach out. And thank y'all so much for your time. It's been a blessing. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Erin , and before we leave , I do want, if, if we can't for you to talk explicitly about your book, we might have to pop this in before we close. Um, but yeah, just tell us a little bit about Sober Spirituality, what does that mean and where we can get it and all those things. And then we'll put our little book disclaimer out about our, about acquisition and all that, so, so people can be educated about it. But tell us a little bit about the book first.
Speaker 4:Yes, thank you. Um, sober Spirituality, the Joy of a Mindful Relationship with Alcohol is a book that I wrote out of a hope to bridge some of the gap that I talked about earlier at the very outset of, of this podcast. Um, how do we begin to care for people who are in a middle place of, I don't necessarily know that I never wanna drink again, but I know that I wanna bring attention and mindfulness into changing my relationship with alcohol. And I really tried to write a book and this is a, you know, a lofty goal and I may or may not have succeeded. You can let me know , uh, but I wanted to try to write a book about this topic that could be for everyone or anyone. Um, I think often in sobriety contexts, when I read a sobriety book, it's written for people who are fully quitting alcohol, who intend to never drink again. And that's very important as someone who has chosen to never drink again. But I wanted to try to do the very Episcopal Middle Way look into it because when I was in my discernment around , um, quitting drinking, I really thought there was a very binary road in front of me that was either I quit drinking and I might risk, you know, friendships. I might not have community. I'm gonna lose this part of my identity and it's gonna be really difficult for me, but stone cold sobriety, it is. Or I have to keep drinking exactly the way I'm drinking right now, which was a way that felt really harmful for me. And what I wished I had had at that time was a view into being able to receive the truth that I could have started right then. You don't have to necessarily know where you're gonna land, but you can go ahead and begin to bring mindfulness into it. And so what I do in the book is I tell a little bit of my story, but I also incorporate , uh, looking into the health effects of alcohol, acknowledging the role that trauma place in alcohol , um, how do we begin to think about non-linear roads into recovery because I had these years of, of back and forth and back and forth, how do we de-stigmatize the challenge? And also how do we look into the really some bedrocks of my faith for me, which are incarnation, resurrection, and liberation, as well as practical resources and ways that you can , um, either through the end of chapter practices or the practices shared at the end of the book, I hope read the book and begin to start your own discernment around changing your relationship with alcohol.
Speaker 3:Awesome. Well, everyone , uh, check out Sober spirituality, the joy of a mindful relationship with alcohol. And if you wanna use your libraries, request it if they don't have it, because if you do, they won't order just one. They'll order a lot. And if your local bookstores don't have it, you should request it then, because again, they won't order just one, they'll order multiple. So if wherever you are in your local context , um, you can request it and , uh, surely will order it. But Aaron , again, thank you so much for being with us and I hope you enjoy Nashville 'cause it has a special place in my heart.
Speaker 4:Well come visit. Um, and Simon, you're also invited, <laugh>. Uh, so , uh, thank you so much. It's been truly an honor and a blessing.
Speaker 3:Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Faith and thanks to Aaron for being with us. And this is just a reminder, if you follow Unbound, follow us on all our socials at Justice Unbound on Facebook and Instagram and at Unbound Justice on Twitter, we are doing a book study with Aaron's book, sober Spirituality, and that will start September 11th. So just reminder, follow us, get your book and do all those things. We want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and lead the podcast a review and give us five stars. We love that. If you have any questions for us, send them to Faith podcast@pcusa.org and check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.