A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

Taking a Pause (and a little Lent) w/ Elizabeth Caldwell

• Simon Doong and Lee Catoe • Season 1 • Episode 149

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Question of the Week:
As people of faith how do we receive feedback and criticism for our words or actions? How do we this authentically while also being intentional and mindful of other's experiences and feelings?

Special Guest: 29:53
Elizabeth Caldwell, Author of Pause: Spending Lent with the Psalms

Guest Question:
We hear in church about Lent being an ideal time to pause and reflect on scripture, God, and our lives. But what makes Lent so special? Also, are there lessons or practices from Lenten-style pauses or reflections that we can use at other times of the year?

Pause: Spending Lent with the Psalms

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Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website

Speaker 1:

Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write it and send us your question because

Speaker 2:

If it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith. And hello, everybody. Simon, welcome back.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much. It's good to be to have be back. Yeah. It's good to be back

Speaker 2:

In the seat, behind the microphone.

Speaker 1:

Yep . Back behind the mic.

Speaker 2:

Love it

Speaker 1:

Where I belong. <laugh> ,

Speaker 2:

Where you belong. And we're all grateful you're here and I hope everything is well and life is good. Yeah . And

Speaker 1:

Yeah, life is good. Um, for folks who don't care how good life is or is not, that's okay. <laugh> , you can skip to our show . Go to our show notes to skip to the segment with our guest . We hope you'll wanna stick around in here because we've also got some introductory conversation. But yes, I'm doing pretty well. Without getting into too many details, I'm just gonna say I liked it and I put a ring on it and leave it at that.

Speaker 2:

And everybody can fill in the blanks as they will. Mm-hmm . Anyway , so, but it's good to see you. And I am really tired today. <laugh> and the fall allergies are real. Y'all. Ragweed doesn't play around these days. It really doesn't. September hits and it's, it's on, so my head's really cloudy. My eyes are very itchy, but I did watch Hoka Pocus yesterday.

Speaker 1:

Nice.

Speaker 2:

Just to get me in the fall mood. Right . Because it's my favorite season because I can't be a little witchy as well . I can be a little witchy if you know me really well, I can get into that kind of stuff. If now I might be, fall is whatever it means in the church that you

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Fall is my favorite season as well. Love the slightly cooler weather. I don't love that it starts getting darker earlier, but at least it's not like five o'clock. Yeah . As it's in winter time .

Speaker 2:

I mean, it'll get clear ,

Speaker 1:

But Yeah. Yeah. And the, the leaves changing color, although as I'm learning , uh, being out in the mountain west, the length of, so of these sort of mid seasons, like fall and spring is different in different parts of the world and different parts of the country. Yeah. So depe and it just depends on the year too. Last year fallout here was, I probably would say three weeks. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

<affirmative> ,

Speaker 1:

Uh, we'll see what it's like this year. But again, every place is different and there's great things about every place. It's just, you know, just about which preference you have for different times of the year. But I'm excited about fall as well. I need a , I need to watch a , a good fall movie to get me in the mood as well. Folks write in and let us know what your favorite fall film is. <laugh>

Speaker 2:

What you mood. Practical magic. Yeah . Did you know that house was not real? I mean, it is real. You ever seen that movie Practical Magic? No . Was Senator Bullock and Nicole Kidman?

Speaker 1:

Oh, yes. Yes I have. But

Speaker 2:

So the house that they had in that movie, beautiful Home, was all a facade, wasn't real. And that's very disappointing.

Speaker 1:

Sad face.

Speaker 2:

It was beautiful, beautiful home, but it wasn't real. They tore it down because it was just the outside. So I hope that didn't take away from your, whoever's listening to your love of Practical Magic, because that house no longer exists. Oh , it was beautiful.

Speaker 1:

Speak . Speaking of film , something that I don't think we talked about, but this was circulating in the news a couple months back when Oppenheimer came out. Yeah. Uh, Oppenheimer part of it was actually filmed, I believe at Ghost Ranch, which is a Presbyterian retreating conference center. Yeah .

Speaker 2:

In ,

Speaker 1:

Uh, New Mexico. Very true. Little sort of outside of Albuquerque and outside of Santa Fe , um, which is pretty neat. So there's some, yeah ,

Speaker 2:

It has been used a lot trivia . And whenever I was there, they were filming a , uh, reality show Oh wow. That you had to like escape from like a helicopter or something. So it was one of those like fear factor type thing, I think. Beautiful place. Y'all should go check it out.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . Out there . And folks just , uh, one other thing, this is also still in the Presbyterian sphere. The reason I wasn't here last week was because I was at the orientation for our international peacemakers. And if folks are not aware of our international Peace Peacemakers program, it's when my office, the Presbyterian Peacemaking program, brings folks who work for partners of the Presbyterian Church, u s A from around the world who do work on things like poverty and climate justice, gender justice varieties of different issues to the US to then sort of go on tour or as we say, itinerary around the country to visit with Presbyterians and talk about their amazing work. And so we brought them foreign orientation and got them sort of situated and now they are off around the country. If you're interested in learning more or trying to maybe see if there's a peacemaker coming to an area near you, just go to our website for the Presbyterian peacemaking program. We can put that link in the show notes as well. But just wanted to put that plug out there for everybody.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, everybody go check it out. It's a good thing. It really is.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . Yeah. It's really great. We've got folks from Palestine, Liberia , um, El Salvador, Cuba. Am I missing anybody? Uh, Indonesia and Poland, and I think that's everyone, but if I forgot one, apologies to the peacemaker, but again, folks with a lot of great experience and we hope that you'll , uh, want to participate if there's one in your local area. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Well, speaking of experience, and I can't do segues like you can,

Speaker 1:

It's all good. You know, it's all about critique and I'm not gonna critique you, Lee , because you gave a great effort, but we do have a question that's, I'm really good

Speaker 2:

At it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . We got a question today that is about criticism and speaking of criticism.

Speaker 2:

Yeah .

Speaker 1:

Here's the question. The question reads, as people of faith, how do we receive feedback and criticism for our words or actions? How do we do this authentically while also being intentional and mindful of others' experiences and feelings? I think this is is a great question. It's hard to do sometimes, especially because it's easy to receive feedback or criticism and kind of take it personally. Yeah. But you don't know where the other person's coming from all the time. They don't know where you're coming from when you made your initial remarks either. So sometimes it's just about having good communication and clarity, but sometimes people just wanna, you know, they just want to sort of prove their point and it doesn't matter how you feel about it. Yeah. And you kind of have a choice at that point. I feel, especially if we're thinking as people of faith to either return in kind or try to see the message that they're trying to convey and sort of extract that and say, thank you for your thoughts and your feedback. This is what I hear you saying. And then kind of move on.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes you just gotta do that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And I mean, I think a lot of people are different in how they handle it, I think. And sometimes when it, well, when I think about how do we do it in a , in church, I think, I think sometimes we might go a little too easy on people. And I think that that is something that I, I struggle with because for me personally, I tend to confront <laugh>. And I think that it is in some way that's not a good thing either if it's to the extreme, but in other ways I think it is all about, you know, how people deliver their said criticism. And if it is not something that, you know, if, if you feel attacked or you feel a certain way or that person is being somewhat , uh, too much in how they are giving you , uh, criticism. I've, I mean I've experienced this in a variety of workplaces I've been in. And at the same time you have to have a boundary too . And it is okay, I think to say, can we pause for a minute because how you're talking to me right now is not acceptable. And I think in some way that in and of itself is a way , is, is kind of disrupting said conversation. Now that might set somebody else off. But I think in Somebo in some ways, we all have to know our boundaries. We all have to know what we can handle. I mean, I can't take that. I can't take someone coming at me and screaming at me or, or telling me to do something in a way that is demeaning toward me in any kind of way. And I will just say, <laugh> , you can't speak to me that way. That is not acceptable for me. That is a boundary for me. And I think that if we are all in , in some way honest about what triggers us and, and kind of like what may send us into something that is like , we honestly can't control in our reaction because we can be very reactive. And sometimes that really does help me to take a pause, but also kind of confront the person. I think the church is the worst place for confrontation. People are either conflict avoidant or they're on the other extreme of, of that. And in a very right , combative kind , they're combative and like this confrontational , this is I am and this is how it's gonna be. When that to me is also very much damaging. And if you're in a workplace, it's not very professional. I think it's something that we all have to be aware of in our own selves as to what boundaries we set up and how we treat other people. I know we all have an opinion, especially in the Presbyterian church. We all love to debate, debate, debate, debate, debate, debate. To the point to where you're just debating just to debate the issue isn't even <laugh> a part of the conversation anymore. You just want to prove your point and move on. And I think that can manifest itself in many different ways. But we all have to start putting boundaries out there and saying some things aren't acceptable and how are we gonna change that behavior? Not, not saying that I dislike you as a person, not saying that you're a terrible human being 'cause we all have and make mistakes. But I think it is navigating it into being honest in that moment because maybe some people just aren't self-aware. And I'm learning that too. I am probably hyper self-aware. I am on the ext extreme of being so aware of people's energies and everything else. And I have to tell myself that not everybody's like that. And I think that that is too, and we see that a lot in the church. <laugh> . They're not, there are people who are not self-aware and that is kind of what we are, you know, that's what makes the church, the church, I think. Do you agree with that though? Like, is there sometimes the awareness around people or self-awareness or the ability to read a room like emotional intelligence? And I'm not saying that to demean anybody, but I'm saying that oftentimes it is lacking in our spaces, I think even though we're, we're here to help people, you know?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well I think that, so first of all, I just wanna thank you for mentioning the point about boundaries. That just because you are in a position of receiving criticism or feedback that doesn't give someone the right to attack you. And that also doesn't mean that you have to sit there and take it, right?

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm .

Speaker 1:

<affirmative> . So you can say, Hey, we can talk about this, but I need a minute. Can we talk about this later? Clearly you are very emotional. Now I might be very emotional, let's talk about this at another time. Or just, I can't, you know, I can't do it right now. Right. I think that's a very healthy thing to do with regards to the, the sort of church space and in spaces for people of faith. I do think that we run into an issue that does not, not always exist outside of these spaces, which is that I think that we think, you know, God calls us to be who we are, right? Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . <affirmative> and who we're gonna be. And we also have this idea that, and rightfully so and and scripturally based , we should be accepting people as they are. Right? Right. But that doesn't mean that you have to accept, accept someone's behavior if they're attacking you <laugh> .

Speaker 2:

Right. I agree.

Speaker 1:

But sometimes we get that confused and because it's like, oh, because I believe this, I need to just sit here and let this person say what they're gonna say. Yeah. And that's not always true. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

<affirmative> . Yeah. Yeah. I agree

Speaker 1:

With that. Um , and so I think that, I think that that is something that does not always exist in spaces outside of the church. Yeah. I also think that we, it's easy to think, oh, if I establish a boundary or if I say, if I just try to take the situation or the conversation in a different direction, somehow that is gonna make that person maybe not angrier, but it will fuel sort of where they're coming from. And then either it will make the situation worse for myself or they're gonna just leave. Right . And if they leave, they may not come back because they feel like they weren't heard.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And in a denomination and in a church space where you're trying to make sure people feel heard, people feel acknowledged, you want them to come back because our church is dying. We all know this should be what we've talked about before. Mm-hmm . Yeah. I do think that all those things come into play.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they do. And I think the one thing that I appreciate about like fate spaces and like church spaces and things like that hopefully, is that we all can take a breath because people are going through a lot of things. And I think especially now after the pandemic, we don't react well to anything anyway. And so I really do think taking a pause and really thinking about, you know, what that person is going through, but at the same time, and we can hold both of those things up at the same time. And I try to say this over and over again, it is not a either or, it's a both. And we can hold somebody's issue or trauma, whatever they're going through in their life right now, we can hold that up and pray for that person and be there for that person. But at the same time, we can also have a boundary. And we can also say that though you may be acting out of a result of the things you're going through, it gives you, it doesn't give you permission to treat me that way. And I think that that is also like disassociation from the feelings of others. And for me, as someone who takes in people's emotions, I , that is something that I've had to learn throughout my life is that my, your emotions and how you feel and what you are going through are yours. And though I may impact that in ways and that can happen, but your reaction to kind of what I'm saying to you is your reaction. And I think that that is something that we can often, that has been helpful towards me because I do think that we often attach ourselves to someone else's reaction to something. And it's helpful sometimes to disassociate with it, especially if you are in a, a situation to where you are being confronted. And especially if you don't think you did anything wrong. That is something that is important.

Speaker 1:

And I also think the , the other side of this question is about the ways we give feedback and criticism. Yeah. Because we can be mindful of that as well. I just thought of this as an example, but if Lee and I are working on a presentation, and Lee really thinks it should, the the presentation's background color should be blue. Or, sorry, lemme back up. Let's say he thinks it should be green, right? And I think it should be blue. We have a difference of opinion, but the ways that we communicate and express about express our feelings and thoughts to each other really matters. Right ? I mean , just not like blue and just be like, well, blue's a bad color and I'm already attacking his opinion. His maybe he's already worked on a presentation in blue and now I've just criticized his work. Or I can phrase that a little bit differently, which is, I see that you chose blue , um, or I say that you chose greed . My bad. I I've already messed up my own analogy.

Speaker 2:

I chose green.

Speaker 1:

Okay. I say, which

Speaker 2:

I probably never would do, but that's

Speaker 1:

Right. Right. Yeah. Well , let's say I say, Hey, I see you chose green. Maybe we should go with blue or another color that isn't green because people are red, green colorblind. And that may make the text that's on the slide difficult to read. Right. Right. That's fine. Or I can say, well, green's a bad color, or you don't care about people who are colorblind or, there are so many negative ways to phrase that. Right. But there's also a way to say that that is an affirmation of their work and also pointing out another way to do things for consideration. Yeah. But it takes like that extra millisecond of time to think about that response as opposed to necessarily maybe our gut reaction, which is, oh no, this is a bad decision. We need to change course now. Right , right. Or you need to know this now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Or the thought that I need to tell you this now, <laugh> .

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think we, I can fall into that. 'cause I am very aesthetically decisive. I'm a graphic designer. I do all that kind of stuff. And so I can be that way. But then you learn working with clients who actually pay you to do the thing you always offer your kind of idea and other options. You always kind of take it in whatever that person may need or want. And that to me is also something that's like, this isn't like a personal thing, you know, like that. I think that's just something that you just have to work on as you do it. You know, you don't know how to take it. But it, it is important to kind of recog recognize people's talents and what they do and not demean it, which I often have to like tell myself too . Um, but it's often, you also need to let off steam too. I talk to myself all the time, like <laugh> , like after a , uh, like after if , if someone, if I'm like in a confrontation or like something happens at work or something like that, I'll like write down what triggered me or what kind of made me upset. And I'll just kind of have like a conversation with myself about it. And then I've gotten all of it out. You know, like I've gotten like, 'cause there's a lot of decisions I don't agree with, I'll be honest with that. But they're not mine to make. Right . And so I think it's also owning the fact that nobody asked you <laugh>.

Speaker 1:

Right. And

Speaker 2:

That's fine. That's fine.

Speaker 1:

Right. Or if you were asked to provide it, remember that you were invited into that. Yeah. Unless, and again, this is something else to keep in mind is that especially in a professional situation, there is power dynamics. Exactly . If you are a supervisor or a superior offering feedback or giving feedback on something that's a little bit different than if it's, for lack of a better word, a subordinate <laugh> Yeah. Giving feedback to someone in leadership.

Speaker 2:

Right. Which they also be taken seriously.

Speaker 1:

Right. But the ways that that feedback and criticism is understood, it, the ways that it's felt is different.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And that's like the problem I think too with like a hierarchical model of doing something is that mm-hmm . <affirmative> when the accountability is then framed in said power dynamic. And I think that can often be, I think that can often be problematic in a sense that maybe my feedback for this organization is not taken as seriously as somebody who may or may not be higher on me than the hierarchy. But in reality, I think philosophy of work, what that means is different for different people. And then we've talked about this too, is that, you know, my goal is to not climb the ladder of any organization. I love what I do. I wish what I do was more resourced, but at the same time, I don't want to climb a ladder or be, you know, I've never been that way. And I think a lot of people aren't that way. They would , they love what they do and they want to keep doing what they're doing. And so I do think that becomes a problem with account like accountability and criticism and things like that. When, when an organization or anything doesn't feel like they can say their opinion if even if it's asked of them or if it will be listened to. And I think, you know, power within this is often a very touchy thing when it comes to this because some people feel like they can't criticize somebody that might be above them and sorry, but Right. We all make mistakes. And I think also naming that and , and in a space, if that ever to happen to just maybe name power dynamics and be like, this , this is this, this is exists and this is what it is. And like, we have to learn how to navigate this.

Speaker 1:

Right. Right. Yeah. Or another example is, let's say you are hearing someone preach or you're listening to someone's presentation and you can tell that they're kind of nervous and they're speaking very fast. And that makes it a little bit more difficult to distinguish exactly what's being said. You can say, Hey, great presentation, loved your content. Uh, I think if you're gonna do this again next time, could you please speak a little bit slower just so that I can follow along? You know, you're not saying anything mean about what they , about how they did it. You're just offering a little bit of perspective for the future. Yeah . But it's a , but that's also different than like, if someone has an accent and you say, I don't understand you, that is like a, that's a cultural difference. That's a really different thing. Yeah. That's a completely different thing. Yeah . So again, you just have to be mindful. And I think also just one

Speaker 2:

Last or ask if they want feedback. I think

Speaker 1:

That's a good thing too . Again, they have Yeah. Be , uh, yeah. If you're not invited to a , to add feedback or criticism or to give it, you don't need to <laugh> . Right. And that was, that leads to my last point I was gonna make here, which is just that if you are going to give criticism or feedback, why are you doing it? Right. What is, what is the point? What is your intention with it? Because I think sometimes we see something wrong, or not even wrong, but we see something that could be better.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

And then we think that we have the right to say something about it. Yeah. And we don't always have to . No,

Speaker 2:

We don't always have to. And I have to remind myself of that too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. We all do. Yeah. I also think that sometimes we feel an urge to simply say what we think is right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That's why I do it to myself. Right. Sometimes you two

Speaker 1:

<laugh>. Yeah. And we don't necessarily need to do that either. There are some things we can just let go.

Speaker 2:

Right. And that's hard for, especially if it's something that I , you're very passionate about. Right. Like, I mean, we , we've both been working in the, we've both worked in the church. We obviously love something about it or else we wouldn't be as passionate and holding it accountable and having the conversations that we do about it. And I think that, you know, it's a good thing that we are talking about this question because this podcast has done some criticizing of the church and it has done some criticizing of some of the things that we can kind of fall into. And we do it out of a space of love doing it out of a space of we hope people can kind of change behavior and just to hopefully to make things better. I mean, technically somebody did ask us our opinion on it, but I do think it's sometimes, you know, we do hold onto something and I'm a huge person who holds onto things. And I do through a lot of work, have let a lot of things go. And there's some things that I do still need to let go. But I know that like we all can fall into these things and it's not an either or. We're all hold on to certain things. We all get triggered by certain things. And that's all different for each person. And when it comes to the church, there are many things I want to change, and at the same time I am accepting that they won't .

Speaker 1:

Right. I think a , I think a pretty common one that we can say here that we've talked about on the podcast is there's not enough opportunities for young people. Right. There's not enough young adult leadership just across the board in the church. That's just like, if that's a truth. Right. Right. And we can say that from a place of, of love, from a place of wanting to see the church grow and thrive.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Without it also being pointed at you are not empowering young people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And it's a place of sorrow too. Yeah . And sadness. And it's a place out of hurt because we are technically still kind of young and you, you don't see opportunity and you hear a lot of conversations about young people, but we still kind of fall into the same traps. And it's also just frustrating. And I think it's okay for people to name that for themselves. It's okay to be frustrated with the church. It's okay to be upset , uh, with things. It's okay to be angry about things. I don't, I don't ever wanna police somebody's emotions over something. And I think sometimes we are asked to get over stuff faster than we should be. And I think that, that, that's also a thing too, is that it's just like, oh, you're just gonna have to get over it. 'cause that's just how it is. And it's like, well, no, why is it this way? And I'm not gonna get over it anytime soon. Right. Yeah. And that's my, that's my thing to work through too. And I think it's all like, I think in like a summary of it, it's like we're all different people. We all are going through different things, and yet we all have our own boundaries. We all have our own ways of, of dealing with things. And I think if we're honest and we communicate more about it, it's all the better for it and how we receive stuff.

Speaker 1:

Well folks, why don't you write it and let us know what you think about criticism and feedback, the ways we give it, the ways we receive it, especially as people of faith. Remember to take a pause during interaction if you need to just set that boundary and, you know, just take that moment for yourself. And speaking of pause, we hope that you'll enjoy our conversation with our guest who is Elizabeth Caldwell, the author of Pause Spending Lent with the Psalms. I know it's not Lent season right now, but it's really good to have a conversation about pausing and the importance of taking pauses at other times of the year as well. So we hope you enjoy this conversation with Elizabeth. Well, we are so excited to be joined on this episode of A Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast by a very special guest. Joining us is Elizabeth Caldwell, who is the author of Pause Spending Lent with the Psalms Elizabeth, we're so grateful to you for being willing and able to take a pause out of your schedule to be with us for this podcast.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. Thank you, Simon. I'm glad to be here with you today.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's, it's good to be in this space with you and to , uh, talk about our question, which reads we hear in church about Lent being an ideal time to pause and reflect on scripture, God in our lives. But what makes lint so special also, are there lessons or practices from Linton style pauses or reflections that can't, that we can use at other times of the year? So how would you respond to our question?

Speaker 3:

Sure. Um, I guess the first, I'd begin first with a confession that , um, I really love the rhythms of the church year that moves us through beginning an advent , um, and into Christmas and epiphany. And we have a little bit of , um, ordinary time before Lenton begins with Ash Wednesday. And then of course this , there's the , um, holy Week Easter, the season of Easter, and then what we call in the church ordinary time that follows after Pentecost. I think what for Christians, whether you are , are faithful attenders of church and participate in church, or whether you are finding those rhythms in your own life of faith, that following , um, that kind of a calendar offers a nice alternative to the cultural calendar. I think sometimes the cultural calendar and the the calendar of the Christian year sometimes come into interesting conversations or conflicts with each other. For example, l well, Easter is the the big day. Right? The big day. And of course we, you know, if if their children are around, we're sharing it with what, you know, they Easter , Easter bunny eggs, <laugh> , you know, one time I heard what parents were putting in their ch children's Easter baskets and I was just like, no, no, no, I just wanna go take 'em to shake. No, no, don't do that. Don't fill it up with, you know, technology and these things. It's about a season, it's about a practice. So for me, lent is a way of engaging in a practice of some faithful reading, some pausing that prepares me to enter this season of Easter. And I like the rhythms of the church year because they do offer me a way of connecting with other persons of faith , um, but also makes me attentive to my own life of faith and my own practices. And however those practices unfold for me. We talk a lot now these days, and you, you guys can probably come in on that as you know, what's happening to the church and where are the people and where , you know, not everybody's coming back after the pandemic. And where our families and where our children and, and we talk about the great decline in the church and people are seeking what are , what are people seeking? We don't really know. We , we don't know how to measure this. And , uh, one of the things I think is really important is, is spiritual formation and how we take on some responsibility ourselves for nurturing our life of faith. And we are not totally dependent on somebody feeding it to us in one hour on a Sunday morning.

Speaker 2:

I really like that. And even in conjunction to a lot of con , I mean, we have had a lot of conversations about church and membership decline and all these things. Having any kind of way to develop some kind of, I , it really does help me get into a, I like a routine mm-hmm . <affirmative> and it , it really does kind of help me get through the mm-hmm . <affirmative> , I'm a very anxious person, but I also am a very spiritual person. And how I tap into that in ways that can also, I can put into my routine is also just very, very helpful. And I also just wonder, and this, this might be a yes or no question, but do you think sometimes the church may downplay our own spiritual practices? Like in a way that is in some ways, you know, 'cause a lot of the times, and especially progressive circles and things like that, we kind of shy away from like the more evangelical, like, I have a personal relationship with Jesus and God and all these things. And then sometimes I'm like, I was raised evangelical mm-hmm. <affirmative> kind of Presbyterian e mm-hmm . <affirmative> , but very adjacent to a lot of evangelical kind of traditions. And I have gleaned some of that need for like a personal routine of like some kind of way to have a spiritual practice mm-hmm. <affirmative> . But I also wonder how our particular tradition as more in like a more progressive kind of way, how we can get back into that, like that pattern of gleaning it. Like we need some sort of routine, you know, personally. Yeah .

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I think, I think so. I think the church sometimes makes it too easy to not do it. Hmm . So I do love having bibles in the pews, but it means you never carry one of your own . I mean, it's a simple thing. I taught at McCormick Seminary for , for 30 years and had a varieties of students from so many different faith traditions. And if you were in , uh, KOIC Church of God and Christ or a m e or um, national Baptist , um, going to church on Sunday, you wouldn't go out your door without the , your bible in your hand. Mm-hmm . It was well worn and used. And I think within Presbyterian circles, we make it so easy. We don't have to carry a Bible, which means do , do we ever pick it up at home? Do we expect anything of people coming on Sunday, like in the way of preparing yourself to come to worship? I love it with when a church maybe might send out with their e-blast on Friday, most churches will do an e-blast either Wednesday or Friday, what's coming up. But , uh, one time I saw a church that said, well, here are the texts for Sunday. Um , and then had a question that went with 'em so that you might come prepared to have thought about the text. And so the Old Testament reading or the Psalm reading, or the letter or the gospel, and, and I wonder, do we ever challenge people back to your point about you need a routine and it helps synergy centers you with your own anxiousness, and do we talk about it much about how these practices , um, that you can, you can do something that helps center yourself for your life of faith and encourage people to try it. I do a lot of encouraging that for children with parents of just starting something. Um, even , even, even if it's only a blessing and a meal, but start something that will grow with children. Because if they grow up with nothing and they expect the church to be the only place where they get it, it's just not gonna stay with you.

Speaker 1:

I think that's especially true. And, and well I recognize that there's a difference between s the Sabbath type of pause and a Lenin style pause . Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . But let's be perfectly honest, in modern mainstream society, Sabbath is not observed in any capacity either, especially in United, you know, United States American culture where Right.

Speaker 3:

And who's Sabbath, you know?

Speaker 1:

Right. Yeah, exactly. Who's Sabbath. Many people work way more than the days or hours that they initially signed up for. It's not just a 40 hour work week , five days a week. And so being able to take any kind of a pause is really important. And I , I appreciate that you mentioned the importance of children sort of getting into that routine or into that habit earlier on. I still say a blessing before I eat dinner, at least when I'm by myself, it's the same one I've been saying since I was a child. But because to me that is like what I'm supposed to do. But I've noticed that when I do that, it is sometimes the five or 10 seconds that I do just completely stop for a moment. And that , and that has become very important for me. 'cause it's also very easy to sit down, take out my phone, start scrolling while eating or turning on something to watch or whatever else it is. And instead what I do is I sit down and I say that blessing, I say grace for that five to 10 seconds. Even if I'm saying it really fast, I'm still doing it. 'cause I can't pray that prayer and watch something at the same time. Well ,

Speaker 3:

I mean, don't you think that's a challenge in the culture today? I think the technology that, the technology that can just take over our lives. Uh , I don't , sometimes when I'm out eating in a restaurant, I like to observe other tables and, and I just think about the missed opportunities when the , when a family sits down with teenagers and everybody sits there on their phone and I'm thinking, oh no , you , you're just missing so many opportunities just to connect with each other. Can we just pause? I think the phone, I , I write about this in the book pause about it's both Bain and blessing. It's just this wonderful thing. You know, you're talking about something at the dinner table, but , and somebody says something or a book title with you're , if we , if you're with a group of adults and immediately somebody's picking up their phone, looking it up, you know, and we have that great possibility, but it's also like, how does it interrupt , um, the possibilities for pausing? Like, like you paused, you know, just to center yourself before a meal. You said something about children and I, I , I look at all the literature that comes out. I , I try to follow what's coming out with what Flyway does with Westminster, John Knox and with other children's publishing and, and then just regular publishing. And we talk about meditations and practices, but in the la in the cultural world or in the language of maybe school, they talk about mindfulness. So there's this great little children's book called , um, um, sitting Still Like A Frog. And one of the chapters is the Conveyor Belt of Worries. And there's a CD that goes along with it. So you can play that cd and the conveyor Belt of Worries is this very passive, quiet voice that you might play for a child or a teenager or an adult. How do you get off the conveyor belt of worries and in order to keep on moving? So this whole attentiveness, mindfulness to use the language of the culture, but in our, in , in , in , within Christian faith, practices of faith that help center us, remind us of who we are and whose we are, and maybe offer a chance to think about some intentions for the day. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> or reflections on the day. Lee , you mentioned it in the second part of that question about , um, practices or reflections that we can use at other times of the year. Um, each chapter in the book pause ends with a spiritual practice that you can actually try and they're , you know, they're , they're , they're nothing new. Mm-hmm . At all. And what I'm suggesting are just some rhythms of, of practice that you pick up something, there's a great , uh, YouTube video from , um, this organization of Catholics called Busted Halo. And it's lent in two minutes. <laugh> , you might have seen it <laugh> . It's just , it's priceless. It's so funny. And, and it , and it , it's very Catholic, but that's fine. You know, and, and , and it talk very quickly and it's so fast and it moves so quickly. But it talks about how take up and, and give up. And it's not only about giving up something, but it's about taking up. So one of the challenges I offer in the book is to, what about taking up a practice? And so, you know, those , the ancient practices of , um, the examine of reviewing the day . Where have you, where have you seen God's love? Where have you given God's love? Um, or in the terms of children, thorns, roses and buds. I , I was doing chap , we have a little chapel thing at my church for children. I was the substitute for a month and we talked , we were talking about the story for the day and, and , and they always pray. And I said, well, let's do thorns, roses, and buds. And what , what were the thorny parts of this week? And then what were the roses? And then what are you looking forward to? What are the buds? And, and children, I mean, that's a practice of prayer moves with a child and moves even at , even through adolescence, thorns, roses and buds still work because my gosh, in your're adolescent, think about all the thorns. <laugh> , none of us wanna go back and live being a , a teenager again .

Speaker 2:

I know. I couldn't do it now. <laugh>. Yeah .

Speaker 3:

I couldn't either . I couldn't either . <laugh> .

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's one of those things that I was just speaking of , phones and technology, social media and all these things. One of the blessings about social media is once you get into the algorithm of spiritual , uh, practices and things like that, you do kind of come across some great things , uh, which I think is one of the benefits of some of this stuff. Now some of it can get very scary. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , like, I , you can just talk about something , show up on your phone. I don't really like that. But I do think there are some times where I've heard, you know, journaling or like having a moment at the end of your day to say, what made me, what gave me joy today? Or what kind of brought me happiness today? Um, what kind thing did I experience today? And I'm a very, I can be a very cynical person. Everybody that knows me knows that <laugh> . Um, and I've kind of started doing that in a way to try to kind of break from, I'm always gonna be cynical y'all, but I'm trying to like, have us a part of my day that like , makes me seek out joy and makes me seek out those things. And I love what you said about , um, the, like the immediacy of technology and how we've kind of lost that, that kind of slow way and kind of intentional way of doing ritual and practice because people used to have to like go get things and like go and collect things and talk to people to find certain things. And like it was kind of an experience all in of itself to even set up such things . Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I wonder about that too. Like how do we, we kind of be intentional not only about doing it, but kind of like even in the setup because, you know, people had to go out and find it and like figure out how to like put it all together and things like that. It's not as immediate as it is now. And I wonder if that impacts us too .

Speaker 3:

I think one of the fun things that we enjoyed during the pandemic , um, uh, my sister's a pastor in , um, was a pastor during the pandemic in Tuscaloosa. And so since we couldn't, nobody could be together. They created Advent Box , we created Advent boxes and we'd, you know, drive through and we, and, and they would hand into the car for anybody who wanted one, an advent box. And it came with, you know, the candles for the four candles for Advent and the , the little bit, little bit of liturgy that , so you could light the candle each week at home , that kind of thing. Or, you know, during lint . So again, a linten bag and you could have, again, a votive candle and , and a little glass jar and a reading for each week. Um, sometimes, you know, you know how pastors have , um, so when we can go give communion to shut-ins on Sunday, you know, you have a lot of times they're giving us gifts when we , when we're ordained little communion box, you know, it's , and it's tiny, you know, and you open it up, it's got the little cups and it's got the fake bread or, and it's <laugh> . Yeah . Yeah. Or unless you take along some really good bread with you and, and you travel with that to go. And I'm kind of thinking, you know, traveling , um, traveling, spiritual practices, boxes, you know, creative people who, who do a lot of the visits with elderly or in shut-ins or places, always take something with them because tactile concrete is so important, even particularly with people with Alzheimer's or anybody. But, but I think what you're suggesting, you know, Lee too , is, is , um, how do we help people realize that just as , uh, Simon makes a space at his table 10 intentionally. You , Simon, you put your phone down and you say a blessing however fast it is , um, uh, you say it and you pause. So for our few minutes you're sitting there thinking, are we helping people figure out how this , the very simple rhythms of life, like how you open your day. Now some people might want to open their day quietly listening to something music or just sitting with a cup of coffee or tea or, or water. Um, how do you close down your day? How do you pause during the day? We , we have a lot to learn from other traditions. Like I wrote up in the book about , uh, a Muslim friend having lunch and her phone went off and she has her call to prayer for each of the hours that she does it on her phone. The alarm goes off. And, you know, I said, oh, I'm so sorry. Would you like to go pray? And she's, oh no, it's okay. I can do it later. But it's on her phone to remind her , um, that in her, in her faith, in her tradition, the , the times during the day when she, when she, when she prays , um, I, I'm just a real, I need, I'm a visual learner and I need stuff. So I kind of like to have , uh, set , set something up a little scarf or a cloth or a candle or light or I'm also like to , um, colored pencils and journaling. 'cause you never know when you might want to illustrate something.

Speaker 1:

Is there something specific that you do during the Lenin season that you don't do at other times when you're trying to sort of, I say celebrate, but that's not quite the right word, but when you were living into the lenton style of pause?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I , um, well, I always begin with Ash Wednesday. There are a lot of people that don't like Ash Wednesday. I do, because for me it marks the season. It marks the beginning. And some people think it's a little bit , um, what would be the word to go

Speaker 2:

Orbit ? <laugh>

Speaker 3:

Orbit . Yeah . There's that , there's that. I, when I lived in Chicago and I would go, go to the noon service downtown, and then I'd be walking around and I'd be in the majority because, you know, they're more Catholics in Chicago than Presbyterians around the world. And it would al I would be walking around seeing all these people with, you know, and then, and then I'd, I'd get home and I'd be wearing it all day. I'd forget it, and then I'd get home at night to wash my face. And there it would be. And it was, it becomes for me, kind of this ritual of , um, taking it off and reminding myself of I am God's beautiful child and I have some responsibility and commitment during this season to follow in the path , um, that Jesus has set, walk that road. I think this started a couple years ago. Uh , I, I began lent by thinking about the people that I don't see on a regular basis living in Nashville. And that's fr friends and family. And so in addition to , um, to following a Linton practice of reading, there are so many wonderful booklets you can get. I usually get one and follow through it with, with a reading and reflection and questions. And, but I make a list of people and then I intentionally try to call one or two every week during Lent . And a lot of our people are good friends that, that live so many other places in the world. But try and intentionally then work through my list, call these friends and just talk with them.

Speaker 2:

It was, and it was probably, I like to, would think that during this time, you know, back when the earlier followers of Jesus were kind of like remembering what happened, family and friends were a lot of the things that kind of connected them all and probably kept them going a lot of the times. And I remember during one lunch we had a minister back at home and introduced us to kind of like the burying the hallelujahs type thing. Yeah . And it was one of those, yeah . We had never , I mean, rural South Carolina, we ain't , we didn't do, we didn't have never heard that before. It

Speaker 3:

Wasn't , it wasn't

Speaker 2:

<laugh>

Speaker 3:

No high church, right?

Speaker 2:

No , no , no , no , no . And , and, but it was actually really powerful. And we say Hi church, low church. But I think sometimes when those things mix that, that's the unexpected. And I think that's when you're kind of thrown out of the rhythm of what it means to be whatever you classify yourself as and you and you really enjoy it. It was something that I'll always remember. Like, we went out and actually buried something that symbolized the actual bearing hallelujahs. And then you learn like, you know, this is a really, is a time of like deep reflection about what is about to happen, what is to come. And it was one of those things that I remember and I was very grounded in and still kind of do my own way that I like to do it and bury the hallelujahs and kind of, you know, get living into that space. That to me, I think Lent sometimes gets a little, A little too like horror movie. Not, not a horror like horror movie e in a way that's like, it's kind of like grim and people like kind of have made it that way. I mean, during this time of it just seems like Advent is the happy one and Lent is the sad <laugh> . You know what I mean? Yeah. And , and I don't know , I don't think I'm necessarily like that. And so I do think it's more than, yeah, it's way more than that. It's more than just death. It's, it's very much a com con contemplative thing. Yeah. But I remember that and I really, it really kind of , yeah,

Speaker 3:

You remember it because you were involved in doing it. It was experiential. That's why you remember it. Yeah. And, and the more, the more we do experiential things, then , then we remember them . But it is more , uh, it is supposed to be a more reflective pensive time. Traditionally, a lot of our, our , our books and practices are geared to following the life of Jesus. Um , I'm , I'm also drawn to like the , the Salt project and they have a little booklet on Mary Oliver's poetry that you can follow during Lent. And in my book , um, I chose not to do the life of Jesus. 'cause I thought everybody else is doing it . I need something, I need something else. You know? Yeah. Much , much my way into it. And my way into it is the psalms, because, you know, we just don't, nobody much preaches on Psalms or , or you hear a psalm read or you hear a Psalm sung or the , or the choir will do a psalm , but, but they're just, you know, zip end , zip out or we get a , a few verses of a psalm, but we don't ever get much engagement with the psalm. So that's in , in this book pause , uh, uh, one Psalm that's read during lent in one of the three , uh, cycles of liturgical , uh, readings , um, the , the lectionary readings, you get one psalm for each, for Ash Wednesday and the five weeks of Lent and Holly week. And my hope in that is, is that here are psalm and maybe reflect on a verse, you know , um, one ver one or two verses that help you so

Speaker 1:

Well , I also think, Lee , what you were describing, as Elizabeth said, you , what you were describing was experiences. Yeah . And I think because we, when we think experience, we think something that's very active, right? But then when we think lent, I think we often think passive sometimes, even though that's not actually true. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . Um , because it , again, if we use the word pause, how can pause be active? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> . But the actual amount of energy it takes to take a pause is sometimes pretty large. And then I think that we also think that when we pause, we aren't going to experience anything because nothing is happening or, or less is happening because we are not doing something else, or because the TV isn't on. Uh, but we're not

Speaker 3:

Because we're not multitasking, right?

Speaker 1:

Because Right. Because we're not multitasking. And that's something that I, I mean, I forget that all the time. I'm like, oh, I don't have time to , to sit down for five minutes and like, or even if it's 30 seconds and just do that for some reason, I still do it for before I eat dinner because that is just ingrained in me from when I was a child. But I think for a lot of folks, it's very easy to forget that actually taking a pause requires effort and energy and can be an experience on its own. Yeah,

Speaker 3:

That's really a great question, Simon. How can pause be active ? Because I think just by the nature of it, it, it kind of suggests , um, maybe inactivity, but I don't think pausing is inactive. I think it, it , it asks a different part of your brain and your body. I remember trying to , um, be real intentional one year with , um, lint and reading the daily lectionary readings. So that's four readings every day. And I started and I got two days in. I thought, well, this is crazy. I'm just, I'm just trying to get through four readings. <laugh>,

Speaker 1:

This

Speaker 3:

Is not what Lynn's supposed to be about. It was killing me. I'm just getting through four readings. And I thought this is stupid. And so , um, I just dropped everything out, but I , I focused on the psalm and that made it possible. Uh, I think pausing can be active when we are intentional about how we pause and no , you know, like, do you take a , when you take a hike, do you take a hike just to get the, to get the steps in? Or do you take a hike to get the exercise in, to get your heart rate up? Do you do a hike because that's what your body needs and what your brain needs? Um, or do you take a hike so that you can also then pause and stop and look at something , um, beautiful in nature? Um, do you let yourself pause? Uh , one of the songs we look at talks about follow a path. And so I suggested a spiritual practice like walking a Labyrinth. Now that a lot of people like Walking Labyrinth, I'm not one of those people, but I do think it's a great option. You know, I , but so for me, walking a path translates into maybe taking a walk , uh, in a local park and following that and , uh, as a spiritual practice. But, but not with the intention of getting it done, but with the intention of , um, being in touch with the rhythm of walking and where I am in nature and what's going on. You know , there's some brain research that says we can only take in so much information and after about 30 minutes, 45 minutes, we just, brains can only take in so much and then they just shut down information and they can only process. We can only process so much. And I think as we age, that's probably even more true. <laugh> , um,

Speaker 2:

I can't remember what I did yesterday, so it might not be age. So <laugh> , you're

Speaker 3:

Much younger than me , so , uh, if you can't remember, God help me, you know, <laugh> . Um, so I think , I think all this whole thing about Lent and pausing , uh, maybe, you know, it's like they say preachers only have one sermon that we just preach it , the same sermon over and over again. 'cause it's a sermon. We must need to hear. I , maybe I wrote this book because , um, pausing is what I've come to value at this age in my life. That , um, I do have more time. I do have more discretionary time than when I was teaching and had meetings and, and , and classes to prepare and all that. And my , and my time is more mine . So it , I can be really, really intentional about how I pause to reflect, do all those things we've been talking about, the intention of a , of a, of a blessing at a meal or how the day begins, or you were talking about , um, Lee , how you shut the day down. Somebody once wrote about a concept of theology at Sunset and how , and that's really the exam . What the examine is, where do you see God's love? Where did you give God's love? Where did you receive a constellations desolation? Those , the desolation of things that did not happen or that made you set , and the constellations of things where that bring you great joy because every day is full of those. And, and do we, I'm just wondering, do we, do we give those, I don't see a lot going on about helping people in our churches think about these practices that, that are so formative and grow with us. Mm . What do y'all think of , I mean, do you think we're doing that at all? <laugh>

Speaker 2:

<laugh> ? Well , uh, I haven't been in a church in a while, but when I was, it wasn't. But, and I also think, you know, however we label ourselves conservative, progressive, whatever that means in today's world, the ch I feel like a lot of the times we are being asked of, or we are asked to be, we are asking to produce something for something else. And now, especially in this sphere , like there is a lot that needs to be done with injustice, with a lot of stuff that is happening in our world. And the, the world is asking of us a lot too. And I do think sometimes even our brains can't even process how much needs to get done. And I think oftentimes we don't, especially during the pandemic where we all had to slow down, we couldn't go anywhere, we couldn't do anything. And I actually, it's actually been hard for me to get back into, like, I have become, I used to be very extroverted, but now I have valued, you know, not needing to always be, you know, on or not always needing to go somewhere or, or things like that. And I think getting used to a new rhythm that we have now, and then at the same time being like inundated with a lot of different things that are happening in our world, I do think we can offer space for personal spiritual nourishment and growth. And this pause that we're talking about mm-hmm. <affirmative> , it's often, it's a either or, and that's how we set it up as like, oh , you have to go out in the middle of nowhere and be a contemplative and, and be that person because it's , we always pit something against each other. And there's the other side. You always need to be out there. You always need to be doing something. You always need to be like, like fight, fight, fight for this, this, and this. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And I feel like a lot of the times we don't know how to integrate those two and hold all that up at the same time and say, actually these are dependent on each other and we need these things exactly in order that we can continue to do what we need to do and help our bodies process it all. Um, especially now that, you know, we had to slow down and my body is resisting doing what I used to do. Hmm . Saying like, don't get out there. You, you have actually rested and you've actually like, your body needs what it needs and is getting what it needs and this is what you need to keep doing. And so spiritual practices have helped me tremendously because doing the work that we're called to is hard. And yet we have, we have this other part of our fate that tells us that the spirit is there to nourish us to be in communion with it. And any way we can do that is needed. I went on a hike this summer in , um, where did I go? Vancouver <laugh> in Vancouver. And, and I remember like in a valley in a hike, and I just stood there for a second and saw, and then for some reason ever since then, I mean this is one of the reasons why we're probably moving away from the city, I realized that like I needed a less kind of busy space to be in because of my own wellbeing mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And it took that, it took me taking a pause in the midst of a hike where I love nature in the mountains and I completely like woke me up to some things . So, sure . Yeah. I, I believe in, in that. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I think whatever one can find to take that pause, whether it's like out of the larger part , uh, like a larger part of time, or if it's just a daily routine at the height of the pandemic for myself, I started going for walks a lot more in my neighborhood, often with the podcast in my ears . So mm-hmm. <affirmative> not totally checked out, but just like walking. And I was living in New York at the time, and so just like walking in a park, walking down the street, you just observe and take things in differently. And I always came back feeling a little better, even if it was only five or 10 minutes.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I mean, it , it almost comes down to giving ourselves permission and Hmm . Yeah , because I think we live in the culture that, and , and , and y'all are, you know, y'all are much younger and the , the joke about baby boomers is we , um, we live to work and those younger than us work to live and , um, um, you know , driven and working all the time. And I think when you add on top of that, the what , the state of the world in which we live in the 24 7 availability of news and the events of the world that come crashing in and all the needs, the needs like you pointed out , uh, Lee needs of the world, the justice issues, the things that we're working for , um, you know, the , um, the work in Nashville that that many people are helping as we try to figure out a way to deal with sensible gun control in the city. And that kind of witness of our faith of going out and even if of , of marching and protesting and showing up as witnesses and, and the needs of the world just get more and more and more and what sustains us. And , and it's back to that old thing, I think, I think we need something, each of us needs some to find something personal. And I think it's different for every person, but it seems to me like , um, one of the things we could be doing, you know, is talking about these, some varieties of practices and the ways that help us survive , not only survive, you know, but maybe find ways to thrive in the midst of the, the deep needs of, of the world that in which we're embedded.

Speaker 1:

Well, Elizabeth, we are so grateful to you for being with us on this podcast today and for this wonderful discussion. And we hope that people will take something away from this about the importance of taking a pause in their own lives. And we'll be sure to have a link to your book in the show notes as well so that people can reference it. Um , but thanks again for being with us on the podcast today .

Speaker 3:

I enjoyed it and, and blessings on your, on your life of faith and all the ways that you find to , to you and all the listeners, the ways that you find to walk with , um, eyes attuned around you to the way that , that God is acting in our world. Go in peace.

Speaker 2:

Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Faith . We want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and lead the podcast a review and give us five stars. We love that. If you have any questions for us, send them to Faith podcast@pcusa.org and check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.