Question of the Week:
Should churches teach history?
Special Guest: 23:15
Liz Lin, Director & Co-founder, Progressive Asian American Christians
Guest Question:
What is it like to organize both a ministry and a community group primarily using an online platform like Facebook, especially a group that is aimed at people with a particular identity?
After Florida restricts Black history, churches step up to teach it
Educate a Child
Faith in Florida: Black History
Progressive Asian American Christians
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Question of the Week:
Should churches teach history?
Special Guest: 23:15
Liz Lin, Director & Co-founder, Progressive Asian American Christians
Guest Question:
What is it like to organize both a ministry and a community group primarily using an online platform like Facebook, especially a group that is aimed at people with a particular identity?
After Florida restricts Black history, churches step up to teach it
Educate a Child
Faith in Florida: Black History
Progressive Asian American Christians
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Well, hello everyone, and welcome again to a matter of Faith, the Presby podcast. The podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write it and send us your questions because
Speaker 2:If it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of f Hello everybody. Hey Simon. Hope everyone is doing well in this world in this new fall season. Thank God.
Speaker 1:Yep . Yes. Hello Lee . And hello listeners. I almost called you viewers, but this is a podcast audio only podcast you can imagineers .
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yep . You can . You can imagine. Um , but if you can't imagine and just wanna imagine instead that you are listening to the guest right now, you can do so by skipping to the time stamp in the show notes for the time with our guest . But we hope you'll wanna stick around for our introductory conversation. As Lee said, it is fall, things are getting a little bit cooler. It's nice, thank God,
Speaker 2:Thank God. Unfortunately , I don't do well in the heat, but
Speaker 1:It's still , yeah , the only thing is that, I mean, fall is my favorite season, but I do miss the sun being out as late as it is in the summertime when the sun starts going down a little bit earlier and it gets dark earlier. It's like, awe .
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's, it's, it does change things. But the past few, well, the past few , it's pretty sunny today. The past few days have been kind of misty and rainy, and I really love that it makes it feel mysterious outside. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I like a little mystical ness at the beginning of the fall season. I really like it sometimes. Mm-hmm . Sometimes I'll just stand out in the rain. It just, I just come alive during the season. Like, I can't take the heat unless I'm near water. But, you know, I can't just be out in the heat and sweating. I sweat a lot. It's just not fun for me. Yeah . And I love a good knit, love a good sweater. I love a good jean . You can't wear that in the heat. I don't know how people wear jeans in heat. I just don't. It's true. I don't know how,
Speaker 1:But some people do it all the time though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true. I'm excited though. And yeah, a lot's happening in our world. Um , I think first and foremost though, praying for our sibling , our Armenian siblings right now, there's a lot of things going on there that, that people are classifying things as kind of an eth ethnic , uh, cleansing , uh, going on. And it's very scary. And if you follow like N P R or anything, you can like, check out those videos. But yeah, y'all just like in our world today, like some things that people take for granted that might, that people might think that's like in the past or in history, just continues to happen over and over again because of difference, because of, you know, different ways of living. And so we just pray for that and that situation because it's very sad and very scary. And yeah. Hopefully we can be doing some work in that area of the world, but we wanted to bring it to people's attention.
Speaker 1:Yep . Prayers. Prayers for our Armenian siblings and in other news. Um, this leads to our introductory question for today. There's a Washington Post article that came out in the last few days titled After Florida Restricts Black History Churches. Step Up to Teach It. It's by , um, I'm gonna , might be mispronouncing the author's name, but by Brittany Shamus or Sha , I'm assuming Shamus . Yeah. Um , could be Shamas , but this is a really interesting discussion and a look at basically after there was, as the title says, after there were multiple sort of legislations and restrictions around what could be taught in schools in Florida, a number of , uh, historically black churches started to sort of, for lack of a better word, offer their own their own history classes or history sessions, history chapters, which is pretty amazing. So definitely recommend that folks check out this story. And leads to our question for today, which is, should churches teach history? And I wanna preface this with a disclaimer that this part , you know, some people take this in a very political direction of Oh no, you, you know, separation of church and state and things like that. But what you have to remember, especially in this situation, is that oftentimes what actually happened historically is way more nuanced than what was ever taught in a history class. Yeah. And it's very easy, especially when those in power are of a privileged position to write history books and history classes in ways that make them look less bad, in ways that overlook a lot of injustices. And in this case, I would just make the argument that black churches, making sure that black history is remembered and remembered authentically is preserving history accurately <laugh>
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And making sure that people hear it. And I hope that people remember that a lot of pushes for justice and injustice movements in not just our country, but around the world, often started with faith communities.
Speaker 2:Yeah. From this , from like marginalized communities. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yep . And I just see this as a continuation of that effort and the, and that legacy. So, and that's referenced in this story as well. But what do you think, Lee?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's, I think this is very important as the church is asking itself where it should be in this time. And I think that this is like the perfect place to sit in a time where we're getting a resurgence of lost cause narratives as it was post civil War of whitewashing history narratives that painted slavery as this happy system, specifically in Florida where the governor was even quoted , uh, saying that slavery taught, well the standards would be taught that slavery taught black people life skills or something like that. And I think that churches are so rooted in the communities in which they are, but I think it also is asking the question of like, what type of church should be teaching history? And I don't know, right now, I don't think specifically if a predominantly white church hasn't done the work of kind of talking about white supremacy and racism within their own context and also within their own lives that they might be, they might not be equipped to do this as well as it should be either. And so it is also asking a church's question of what your capacity is, how much work you've done. Um, but I also think it could be more than just this. We all, we have been having a conversation too, and I know our denomination, a lot of other ones have been having a big conversation around public education. And a lot of people in politics, particularly on one side of the aisle, are talking about defunding public education and what that looks like. And being a product of the public education system, and my mom worked in it for years, it is one of the greatest things that we could offer people in this country. And to see it being used as a political steering ship or seeing it used to whitewash history, which it has been used for that for, for centuries, really, I think is telling to where the church should be. Education is not very flashy. It's not something that is, I mean, it kind of is getting into the, like the public discourse even more so now. But I think the church could be a great space to fill in a lot of gaps that it have been missing within our public education system because there is so much control over it and depending on what the government is. But going to school is also the only way some people get meals, it's the only way that they are, they socialize with other kids. It's, it's far more, you know, about socialization too, and getting the correct history and not being so coddled that you don't know about anything about the world. I got that from my public education system. And I do think the church should be having robust conversations about specifically , uh, I mean there's a church in every community and there's a school in every community. And what does that relationship look like to not Thor or like lie about history, but to make sure it is taught well and informed in a way that is really what happened? Because I know a lot of, a lot of this stuff is backed by theology, that they are hiding real history and saying it didn't happen that way. And a lot of this stuff is being backed by other types of churches that may or may not want a real history, a very racist history to be talked about. So I think it's important for churches to really kind of figure out who they are, but also like what is happening in your local school system, what is happening like in school board meetings? And I will plug Educate a Child by the Presbyterian Church, u s a that does a lot of good work and we can put a link to the show notes in our, in the show notes. But I think this work, we are called as people of faith to speak truth and to grapple with truth in ways that we hold ourselves accountable and accountability of others. And we'll never do that if we don't know history correctly. And I think what these churches are doing in Florida is amazing, and it's a part of this coalition of religious institutions called Faith in Florida. And we can also put that link in there too, if anybody wants to get ideas to kind of talk with people about how to do this kind of work. If there are book bands or there's this wild way of censoring and whitewashing history that continues in our education system, it might be a good kind of template to start with. But I think this is where the church needs to be. If it's a church that wants to do this work and has done this work and is, is wanting to be in the community, I think it's a , a great place for the church to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you know, it's so interesting on the number of things we've seen lately, like you said around book banning or , uh, and that's regarding things that relate to slavery. We've seen things related to the Holocaust not being allowed in schools. There's things related to issues that also is not allowed. And it , there is a point where it's like, it makes me wonder, you know, why are you sending your child to school if you don't want them to learn?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And I think it's because you don't want them to, and , and , well, I'm gonna back that up. There is a difference between sending your child to school and saying, I want you to teach my child what to think, versus I want you to teach my child how to think.
Speaker 2:Yeah,
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because I think that people get scared because it's like, oh, if that, if, if what is being taught or if they're being taught how to think in a way that doesn't align with the values that I, myself as a parent already have and already understand, that's scary. And I get that, you know, I, I know that my values are not exactly the same as my parents. They're pretty similar, but they're not exactly the same. And in some families it's very different. Generations have, can have very different opinions on the same issue.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And , and that can be kind of scary, but as if we're also Christians and called as people of faith, that means we're also called, like you said, to teach, we're also called to learn and that means getting a better understanding of history because we also don't wanna repeat the same mistakes.
Speaker 2:Right. And it's, and it's not like, and I'm not saying that churches need to get involved and also kind of evangelize at the same time. I think there's also a very fine line between that and we talk about church and state and things like that, but those lines have been blurred for God knows how long, especially now. But fact of the matter is not everybody's a Christian. Not everybody holds to the Bible. Not everybody even thinks two seconds about Jesus in their everyday lives. And I do think that we all have to realize that too, because that is also connected to this conversation because it, it is the same people who are whitewashing a history that are also trying to create and somewhat a theocracy, a Christian theocracy that I think is very skewed as to what the Christian faith is. But I also think that people also need to realize not everybody cares about the Bible. Not every caress that that does that does not center to their lives so much so that when I send my child to a public education school, I don't want them to have prayer in school because, you know, just because that's my child does not mean that that may or may not be something that is central to their lives. Like I think that that is something that is also connected to this conversation of the separation of church and state and what our theologies and such say about something when theology has done damage throughout history, in fact has perpetuated such of racism and white supremacy in our world. And that is one of the main reasons why the separation of church and state should be there is that it, it can be very manipulated. And so I do think churches have to walk a fine line if you want to teach history and you want to do this work. Not everybody need , not everybody wants that theology in their lives. And that's okay. And I think that we are trying to meet the human needs and the educational needs and the things that are necessity for our lives to meet somebody's humanity and not necessarily meet them in their humanity alongside of what they may or may not believe spiritually. And I think that that is something that for me is very important, is that if we are this land of freedom, y'all need to stop worrying about what people believe in. I think that that is something that we will continue to have diversity in. And not everybody is gonna hold to the Bible. And that is okay. That's okay. And I think that when we're lying about history, I don't think that's okay. Like I don't, I don't think that a history that has been a lie is okay. I mean, we've even lied about the history of Jesus White Jesus, for example, that ain't historically accurate. So what does it mean for us to also wrestle with our own ways that we have skewed history so that then we can also hold ourselves accountable to actually have a conversation about history. But, but I think in this instance, the black church, which has always been at the forefront of movements, has done what it has always done and has taken up this, this task to say, you will not lie about the history of this country or the history of, of anything. And we are going to tell the history because we were a part of it and we were the ones that have suffered a lot from it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And just important again to remember that it's so easy for history to be, like you said, whitewashed the victor often writes history and sometimes you don't even have to win to still spin history in a way that works in your favor.
Speaker 2:Yeah , yeah. You don't <laugh> . That's not, and it's , it's all about the power and the money behind it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I don't, I don't , I don't want to take us down a rabbit hole, but I was listening to a podcast recently in which someone said that they know people who are sort of in our generation, so the generation that didn't grow up during the Vietnam War,
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Who between cultural influence and history class believe the United States somehow won the Vietnam War, which is in incredibly inaccurate Right. By pretty much every measure of success of anything. It doesn't even matter if it's a war. If you were to grade that as a paper, it would not pass <laugh> . But that's down to cultural understanding again. And, and whatever was taught in history class. Yeah . So it really does matter.
Speaker 2:It does matter. And children can handle things. Yeah. This is another thing I think we do not, we shed light on children's innocence so much so that it's not even, that is not even the conversation we should be having because I do think that there are many things in this world, the these systems in particular that we are instilling upon these children that will shape their lives more than we will ever think about Sy systems of , of oppression and racism and white supremacy to hide history and to mold a child in the ways in which perpetuates these systems. That is what we should be talking about because we are, we are co-opting the word innocent. Oh. We don't want to expose them to horror . We don't want to expose them to this and this and this. We don't wanna expose them to that. But in, but, but I will say it is not an exposing anything to anyone. It is simply showing this is what happened. Exposing something means it's been hidden and y'all tried to hide it and you're making it hidden and you're making it taboo and you're making it something that shouldn't be talked about in public on purpose. It's just like sex. It's just like anything else. We are creating a taboo culture in order to create a sense of we are going against a child's innocence when, when we have created a system that says these things are taboo and we don't talk about them. They just happen behind the scenes and just so they can continue to happen. And bringing it to light even more so is now shedding light onto something. And now we're going against children's innocence and it's like actually not, we are just saying what has happened. And that's simply the truth. Yeah . And people need to learn how to handle truth. And kids are more resilient than we like to, to paint them out to be. And they have been used as tools, they have been used as pawns in a political system that is harming said child over and over again. 'cause they're not getting the education they need. They're not getting the, the human dignity that they all deserve. And I think that is the, especially children of color, kids, like we have created these systems to perpetuate these things and we all clouded in a child's innocence when really it's people in power who want to keep power and money and keep oppressing people.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And the other thing is that a child is gonna experience things and know when something, and , and I mean, they're not always gonna know, but they can tell when they've, when someone tells them something that doesn't line up with their own life experience, they can tell that. And the thing is that if they're gonna go to school and they're not gonna get that truth, and then they go to church, and if it's not there either, where are they gonna get it?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If you are a person of faith and you are, and your and your child is going to say school and to church, they , I would hope that they get it somewhere <laugh> .
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would hope so too. If they're not getting it in their school. And that's the same with sex education too. Where are they gonna get it?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:If it's not done in a, like a space that has done that work? And that's what I want to reiterate y'all, is I would never trust a church to do history, specifically white churches that haven't learned their own history and how they perpetuate said history. I think that that is also a good point. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> in all this too is that if y'all want to do this kind of work, you have to do the work yourselves and in your communities in order to do that well. Um, and not retraumatize someone. So I think everybody should read this article. We'll have it in the show notes, but it's a great question that churches should be asking themselves is where do we, where do we find gaps in our public education system that we have the resources and the space like churches that aren't being used? Um, where do we have that capacity to fill in the gaps , uh, for our community and for the kids in it ?
Speaker 1:Yep . Well folks, why don't you write in and let us know what you think Should churches teach history? What are your thoughts on the education system? What, what are the gaps? And how can faith communities either be a space to fill them or partner or empower the folks who can So write in and let us know. And we hope that you'll enjoy our conversation with our guest this week. Who is Liz Lin , the director and co-founder of Progressive Asian American Christians. So we hope you enjoy our conversation with Liz.
Speaker 2:Well, joining us with the podcast today is a very special guest. We have Liz Lynn , who is the director and co-founder of Progressive Asian American Christians. Liz, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3:Thanks so much for having me, Lee . I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're , we're really grateful to have you. And before we get to our question, I did wanna give you a moment to tell folks a little bit about progressive Asian American Christians , um, also known by its acronym pac P A a C . And if you could just tell folks a little bit about what PAC is and how it came to be.
Speaker 3:Sure. So PAC is a community for Asian American and Christians who identify as progressive, whether that's theologically, socially, politically. Um, it came to be as a total accident <laugh> . Um, I, God, how do I even start this story? So about seven years ago was in conversation with a friend and just trying to work out why church had been such a struggle for me for the last 10 years. And in conversation with this other person who holds all the same identities, progressive Asian American, Christian, like, we finally kind of hit the nail on the head where it's like when you hold all of these identities, it's very hard to find a faith community because if you pick one that matches your racial and cultural experiences, those spaces tend to be very conservative, right? Like Asian American churches famously are like theologically, socially, politically conservative. Um, and if you choose a faith community that matches your theology and values , um, you're probably gonna be the only Asian person in the room because progressive church spaces tend to be super white. So in either instance, you kind of have to turn the volume down on some aspect of your identity that's very salient to who you are. Um, and then finally just in this conversation, I was like, oh, so this is why church has been so hard for me ever since I started my journey of deconstructing , um, my spirituality. So I decided to write a piece about it, and while I was writing about it, I met a pastor in San Francisco , uh, near where I was living named Lydia Shu , um, who also holds those identities. And as I was talking to her about this piece, she was like, oh, that's so funny. I just started this Facebook group called Progressive Asian American Christians, but it's like brand new, like nothing's happened, no one's in it yet. And I was like, oh, wow. Like, just the timing of that and like the specificity of the language, like it just feels, it feels remarkable. So , um, when I finished writing the piece, I linked her group at the end, and then, you know, once the piece went up, people started joining it. So like 300 in the first day, a thousand, at the end of the first week, Huffington Post picked it up. So then it just started like gaining more and more traction and like , um, all of a sudden finding that there were lots of people like us, there were lots of people who, who hold these identities and didn't feel like they had spaces in their I R L church communities for all of these, all of these identities to like take center stage or to live together. Um, and so it was kind of amazing what happened just right away people were like, when can we start meeting in person? When can we have a conference? So like, very quickly things started taking off from there. So while Facebook, like Facebook is kind of like the main avenue for a lot of our engagement and like, you know, how people connect with each other. Um, there's also local meetups in like a couple dozen cities around the world. We have , um, an annual conference slash retreat. We had a 10 month online intentional learning community called the PAC Fellowship. There was a podcast, there was a book club, there was all this different stuff happening , um, which the pandemic changed a little bit. So I feel like right now we're in a time of like kind of reestablishing who we are as an organization in this new landscape. Um, but yeah, that in a nutshell is what PAC is. It's a community that's started online, but now has like lots of I R l uh, components too .
Speaker 1:Thanks for that overview, that, that's really helpful. And I'll give a disclaimer to folks. I'm, I'm a member of PAC on the, on the Facebook group, and I've, I always really enjoy checking out the things that people post, the questions that people have, the um, whether it's an article or sermons that people share, I find them really insightful. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And that kind of leads us to the question we have, which is about sort of the, the kind of model that PAC has sort of fallen, has maybe fallen into Yeah . In the way that it's coming to existence. Yeah . The question is , um, uh, what is it like to organize both a ministry and a community group primarily using an online platform like Facebook mm-hmm . Mm-hmm. <affirmative> , and especially a group that's aimed at people with a particular identity.
Speaker 3:Hmm . Simon, this is like such a big question , <laugh>. So I'm gonna , uh, try to, I'm gonna try to tackle this bit by bit. Um, so I will say again that this is all an accident. Like nobody intended for this to be a thing. Like I thought, I did not really know how Facebook communities worked when this started. I was like, oh, it'll just be a group and like people will see that they're not alone. And I just, I didn't really realize that like , um, Facebook groups especially at that time around like 20 16, 20 17, were like, were a lot of like meaningful connection was happening. So I will say that I went in just like completely unprepared, unsuspecting. I just had no idea how any of this worked. I will say that on one hand, I think it's incredible that we live in a time when people who feel very isolated and alone in their real lives can go online and find communities of people who are like them. Right? Like, that's incredible. Um, so it has been amazing to see people who thought they were the only one, like actually like find that there's lots of others and sometimes even people who live in the same area so they can meet in real life and stuff like that. Like that opportunity for connection and belongingness I think is amazing. And I feel really grateful that we live in , um, that we live in this time because of that. Um, but at the same time, it's also tough, right? Because, you know , um, in interacting with somebody online who you have no relationship with in real life , um, sometimes means that the interactions like don't have the same level of care or the same level of empathy that , um, an I R L interaction would have. So, and like, you know, things like tone are really hard to read online. So like these were, these were things that like we, in the early days of pac, we're really trying to contend with, right? Like, how, what does it, how do we build community? And like , um, you know, like these kind of like shared rules for engagement or like guidelines for engagement with people who don't know each other in real life. I, I, I give much, much credit to , um, our moderators Gloria who, and Stella , Juan Phelps, for really stepping in and like, I think setting a norm and an expectation for how we engage with each other, which is like to engage in good faith, to engage from a place of humility and genuinely wanting to learn and like not having any patience for like, people trying to own each other or like, you know, just so much of the toxicity that you see in online spaces. And I think because of that, like, because of the standard that they set and because of how they model that in the group, like I think the group has taken on that culture, which I feel so grateful for because I was just like, I mean , I feel I, I again walked in knowing nothing and I was like, I think people will be nice to each other, right? If they're all like progressive and Christian. And then I very quickly learned that , uh, that is not the case. So , um, I have to give Gloria and Stella so much credit because yeah, Lydia and I just kind of thought that the group would manage itself and , um, we learned pretty quickly that there actually needs to be like leadership modeling and accountability , um, to the kind of like culture and engagement that we want to have in the group.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's so hard, especially recently, I don't know if you saw it, but like the lang , there's this an , what was his name? Simon Alexander Lang, this big article that ran around that kind of went viral a little bit. Hmm . And in the progressive circles of like the P C U S A and all these places, it was shared around and it is wild how certain things bring stuff out of people Yes. And how they kind of react to those things. Mm-hmm . And you were talking about Covid and I think sometimes specifically online we're even like, well, not saying that it's like as EAs triggering is awful, but it's easy to be triggered even more so now just because of what we went through. Yes. And then in how we react to that. Yes.
Speaker 3:And
Speaker 2:Just to see the things that people were saying and kind of like taking a step back and looking it as a whole and how we, and how we are in the discourse specifically around progressivism within fate and specifically how we see other people's experiences only through our own kind of, only through our own lenses in a way. Yes. Yes . And the internet, it doesn't often lead to , like you were saying this, like it's very reactionary. Yes. And I, and I often ask myself, 'cause I am not one, I am not one to talk. I'm a very reactionary person. Uhhuh <affirmative> <laugh> , and I own that Uhhuh <affirmative> . And I usually try to, but, but it's also how do we create, 'cause I think online spaces are wonderful. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , I mean, if it wasn't for online spaces for me, like where I'm from and rural South Carolina as a person growing up there and not, thank God the internet was developed Yeah . As I was developing, which was kind of scary. Yeah . But also it did provide very much a community that I found through that mm-hmm . Mm-hmm. <affirmative> . And so I do think there's a lot of Ben benefits from it, but we're in such a different place now because of the pandemic and the trauma that we haven't dealt with, that we are very reactionary when it can be a space that is very life giving . And we've just seen it recently how it can go, not such in a good way.
Speaker 1:Yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah .
Speaker 1:To add some clarity, the, the article or post that Lee is referencing, we talked about on the podcast a couple weeks ago, and it was a , a post by a pastor who left Stop being a pastor after 10 years. And he sort of wrote this long post about basically about why ministry is hard and why he was leaving. Hmm . And it, and there was a lot of, there's a lot of, what's the word I'm looking for? There was a lot of sharing online <laugh> <laugh> in response to this post. Some of which was , and some of it was all over the place. People talking about Yes. Like some people feeling very affirmed that someone said, yeah, ministry is really hard. Mm . But also it, it took off , it sort of grew into a bit of a toxic discussion around sort of like oppression Olympics, you know, misery comparing. Yeah . Yeah. And, and the s and without anyone really paying attention to just the flow of the discussion in general mm-hmm. <affirmative> , which is something that I've really appreciated being a member of the progressive Asian American Christians Facebook group, is that I do think, again, like you said earlier, Liz, I think the , the moderators have done a great job in an administrators who have done a great job in establishing the norms for sort of how we interact with each other. Yeah. And that when you become a part of this group, you agree to these guidelines and if you, you know, you can, you can mess up as long as you're willing to change, right? Yeah. Um , but there are certain ways and norms of behavior that, that we have to abide by. And I think that's so important.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree. And I think it's very different than other spaces on the internet in that way. Right. I think people now, especially to , to your your point Lee , like people in the, you know, C O V I D era, I think are very used to spouting off online, especially because for such a long time there was nowhere else to spout off. Like we were having so few face-to-face interactions that like, people took all of their feelings of anxiety and trauma and rage and just directing them on the internet, you know, in Twitter, on Twitter and on Reddit and like so many spaces like that. Um, and so I think for some people it is a bit of a shift to be in an online space where actually like that that's not, that that's not tolerated. And you know, like first and foremost this is a community and first and foremost we lead with care. And so it's, I think in order to make the space different from the norm, like you have to be so intentional about setting this kind of culture and this kind of expectations because the rest of the internet is just a cesspool of people yelling at each other and owning, trying to own each other and just Yeah. Where there's truly no care. Right. And there's very little acknowledgement that like the people that you're engaging with are full people. Right. With full lives. And yeah. So I feel, I feel really grateful for how, for how that kind of culture has taken shape in the group.
Speaker 2:It seems like it's a group that kind of, you know, values having these discussions. Because when you were talking about it, you were saying that in many Asian American spaces, it's not progressive. Yeah. And I wonder if we can talk a little bit more about that too. Sure. Because I just had a conversation with someone right before this, and they were talking about, I've been following really closely to a lot of antique legislation happening in Uganda and Ghana and mm-hmm. <affirmative> and someone , 'em was just like being very demeaning toward said countries. And I basically said, well, we as white folk exported Yeah . Said stuff a hundred percent . And I was like, so we as white people need to have that conversation before you start judging people, our siblings in these said countries that are doing this. 'cause we're kind of creating the template. But anyway. Yeah. I wonder Yeah, if you could talk , if you could talk a little bit more about that, because I don't, many people may not necessarily know about that dynamic or what Yeah . That kind of entails, and it might be good to kind of understand why this space is so important. Yeah. Um ,
Speaker 3:And
Speaker 2:The types of conversations that have been had
Speaker 3:In them . Right . Uh , yeah, this is , um, this is a really good question and Lee , I really appreciate you naming that. Like, you know, these brands of Christianity that are so anti-gay and you know, et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . Like they are taking the Christianity that was giving it given to them and they are applying it violently in their own context, you know? And , um, yeah, I just, I really appreciate you just kind of like acknowledging the bigger system there. So I think there's a few reasons why Asian American church spaces tend to be , um, more conser or , I mean, many church spaces are conservative, let's be clear about that. But I think that like Asian American ones have a specific flavor for a few reasons. Like one being that Asian cultures are often just more conservative in like terms of social norms and social practices there than , than western ones, right. In terms of like how you talk to adults and dating and sex and, and , and, and, and so like you're already starting from like a little bit more of like a traditional POS position. Um, but on top of that, like this is something that Lydia has , uh, talks about, but like, you know, people who immigrate from Asia to the us , oftentimes their values are locked in to the year that they left that country. Right? So my parents immigrated from Taiwan to the US in 1972, and their values are very much 1972 Taiwan. They come here and they don't see themselves necessarily as part of America. So the way the , so in the way that America is moving forward, they are like kind of quick to dismiss that as like, oh, like those westerners are doing their own thing and like, we're gonna keep our values here. Meanwhile, things in their mother countries are also progressing. Right? Like Taiwan is a country where same-sex, I think maybe the only country in Asia, don't quote me on that. I believe it's one of the only countries in Asia, if not the only country in Asia where same-sex marriage is legal. So Taiwan meanwhile has been progressing , um, but a lot of Taiwanese immigrants circa 1972 still hold these values from, from Taiwan 1972 and don't really have any societal forces pushing them forward. So , uh, somebody in PAC talks about how like, you know, immigrant communities can kind of be like museums of like, you know, values from whenever time their , um, participant or their congregants immigrated. So I think that's also a part of it too. And I, I do think that there is a huge deference in a lot of Asian American communities to white evangelicalism, frankly, like kind of , uh, a sense either conscious or subconscious that like, these are the people who brought us Christianity. Surely they must know what to do. There's a lot of like relying on, you know, like Tim Keller and John Piper and these like old white evangelical men , um, relying very heavily on like their books and resources and curricula. So I think in a lot of ways, like you have all of the conservatism of white American evangelicalism that is like just exacerbated by these like very specific cultural factors and immigration factors , um, that can make Asian American churches even more conservative than their white counterparts. And thus, you know, if, you know, you are a person who even dares to think that like maybe men and women can have like equal rights and opportunities in the church like that can be seen as like, out of the question and all the more if you think that, you know, maybe it's good and fine to be gay, like let alone if you are actually gay identifying like , um, that can be seen as like unacceptable. And you know, for at , at , at the time that I was growing up talking about things like race and justice, like those were also not welcome conversations either. So all that to say that like, it because it is so hard or even actively frowned upon to talk about these things or to be these things in Asian American Christian spaces , it makes a space like PAC especially important for people to be able to have these conversations to talk about what these things look like from an Asian American lens. Um, and then especially for our siblings, like it's not safe for them to be themselves in most Asian American church spaces. So just a , a space where they can actually be their full selves I think is really like life changing and life saving . You know, there's , um, a subgroup of PAC that's specifically for members , um, that's led largely by Serena and she's just done an incredible job of creating a space where like hundreds of Asian American Christians have like, been able to find like real belongingness as their whole selves, which is incredible.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate that. You mentioned how when people immigrate particularly to the US that their values and sort of their theology and their perspective is often a time capsule from mm-hmm. <affirmative> when they left their, their home country. Um , yeah , and I've, I haven't seen that ne quite as much in my own life because I'm, I'm, I identify as 2.5 generation Okay . Chinese American. So like I am , for lack of a better word, removed enough. Mm-hmm . It's not like my parents were the ones that my dad wasn't the one that immigrated mm-hmm. <affirmative> , but I've seen that with other people. Yeah. Like, it's very clear and like when I, I served as a young adult volunteer through the Presbyterian church in South Korea for a year. Hmm . And then coming back to the US it was so interesting meeting people and it was like people who immigrated to the US from South Korea still held values that the home country no longer holds. Yes. It's progressed as you said. Yeah . Yeah . And so it's, that's, and I know that that happens in other, in other cultures and, and with folks who immigrate from , from other places. Um , yeah . Because that 'cause it creates a cultural dissonance or I don't, I say dissonance in the sense that especially if those immigrants then have children mm-hmm . <affirmative> because the context that they're growing up in is so different from the ones that their parents knew. Yes. And so it creates, yeah. It creates a lot of, it can create friction and tension within oneself when you feel all of these sort of different values and cultural elements that don't quite fit, but mm-hmm . <affirmative> , but it's not like you can go to your own parents and ask a question about it. Yes. Because they don't, because they don't relate to it. Right . In the same way that you do. Right. And that's something I wanted to, to ask you about with regards to, to identity in particular. Especially as, for example, someone who's, let's say, you know, I said 2.5 generation mm-hmm . <affirmative> is how I identify. Um, I'm also multiracial, so I'm, I'm white on one side of my family and I'm Chinese American on the other side mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there's not always spaces to go to to sort of embrace or interrogate or just discuss all the aspects of my own identity. Yeah. And I know that that's true for a lot of people in other spaces. Yeah . And that was something that I really appreciated about progressive Asian American Christians. It was actually recommended to me by another multiracial Chinese American Hmm . Um , who was a pastor in a campus ministry that I was a part of. Hmm . She said, you know, you might want to join this because they do good stuff that they talk , you can talk about this stuff there. And I was like, really? Hmm . I can talk about that with people I've never met before. Mm-hmm . That's kind of interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the reason I went back to sort of the, the generational and cultural differences is because also when we say Asian American, that means different things to, to different people sometimes mm-hmm . <affirmative> mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:<affirmative>
Speaker 1:And in different spaces, there is kind of this , uh, for lack of a better word, I call it like a litmus test of like, you know, are you really, are you really Asian? Are you really Asian American? Yeah . Yeah. Um, and I haven't ever felt that in the progressive Asian American Christian space. Hmm . And so I'm curious about how you all went about establishing this group that is accepting, but also is I organized around an identity that at times can feel kind of like a misnomer Yeah . Or something that is fluid at times, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:It does. It does. I really appreciate that and I am so grateful and glad to hear that you have never felt like gate kept , because I know that like, that's one of like the biggest failings of a Asian America broadly, I think is this idea that like multiracial Asians are like not Asian enough, or that adoptees are like not Asian enough. Like I, I , it's so offensive to me. Um, and I , um, I'm glad that you have not experienced that in this space. God, this is such a good question. It's what you said is totally right. Like Asian American is like a very tricky thing to define and it's ever, ever-changing. And I just feel like we just try to keep it as, as like a broad , an umbrella as possible. And I feel really grateful for people in our group who really advocated for themselves and for their peers and just like named some of the ways that certain Asians are excluded from the community in other spaces, like multiracial folks like adoptees. And I feel like that really heightened our awareness to , um, make sure that we don't exclude people in ways that folks are excluded in other places, if that makes any sense. The attitude has always been like being Asian American looks like so many different things and like , um, you know, our group is like disproportionately female, disproportionately, and like these are often narratives that are not heard. And maybe it's the fact that like our group is like largely centered on marginalized voices that's made it possible. But anyway, I just totally stumbled through that answer. But I think that that may be the difference. It's the fact that like our group is made up disproportionately of people whose narratives are not centered in most Asian American spaces otherwise. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does. Okay . Well, because I think each of us has had the experience of feeling we , like we have to explain ourselves mm-hmm . <affirmative> to gain acceptance into a circle mm-hmm. <affirmative> . And I mean, you have to, you, you know, quote , apply to or to join the Facebook group mm-hmm. <affirmative> , but it wasn't like it, I I didn't get the sense that it was like, Hmm , are you Asian enough? Are you really Asian? That I didn't get the sense that that was what it was. It was Do you identify as this? Yes. Great.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You're we're , we we're glad to have you. Yeah. And also even within some of the interactions I've observed online, I think that in the United States, when we think Asian or Asian American, we really think Chinese, Japanese, Korean a hundred
Speaker 3:Percent.
Speaker 1:But there are so many other Asian American cultures and people <laugh> mm-hmm . <affirmative> from, from, you know, with uh , backgrounds from other countries mm-hmm. <affirmative> . And I've appreciated that that has been named at times within the group that, you know, this is not just for the, you know , the three main countries or people with ancestry from these three main countries that we tend to think of mm-hmm . <affirmative> in US society. Yeah . That Asian American does look very, very different. And that even within Asian and Asian Americans , um, sort of circles there is, I mean, I'll go ahead and say it . There's racism there is for sure. And tension. Yeah . And so trying to, to acknowledge that and hold that while at the same time celebrate who we are each individually, I think is something that is pretty amazing. And the fact that it's worked online also has been, it's just a fascinating thing. 'cause I think so many people, if you said, oh yeah, I started a group organized around identity and it was mostly online, most people would be like, that's crazy. There's no way that could work.
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Yeah. I mean, those were such generous words. Simon. Thank you. I feel like, I feel like so much of this as I, like, as I listen to what you're saying, and I think about like, what made this possible. I think a lot of it was just having moderators, and again, like Gloria and Stella are so good at this, like having moderators who had just have a very keen understanding of like the complexities of Asian American identity and like, as you said, like the racism and like the exclusion and all of these nuances. Um, and have the ability to call it out in , in how they respond to folks, like when they see it, or just like to preemptively when, when a question is posed to like highlight some of the pitfalls that can happen and like, you know, ask folks to, to, to be thoughtful and mindful of those, that culture is possible because the people who have been leading the group are conscious of those things. And I think modeling, being thoughtful and, and you know, naming things that I think a lot, a lot of times go unnamed in our communities.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it makes me think about how, how others may also cultivate that. I mean, even within the work like Simon and I are doing, it's in a national entity of a church or , or any way that you are in relationship with folk in a particular way that you all identify. Like, it's, it's really hard to hold people accountable mm-hmm. <affirmative> and to do so grounded in like love and grounded in the ability to kind of take that and, and not take it necessarily so personal that it becomes something that it's, it's not beneficial for anybody then. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> . And so I also, I also wonder about that too because just in the work that we do to often have conversations like if something, if somebody did something to someone else, or like if somebody did something to me, how, how do we cultivate that als that also that accountability and that covenant with one another Yeah. To even stand in that. And a lot of that has to do with, I mean, people take things personally and get defensive that's like white supremacy culture a lot of times, whether it be like you're in acting or pet perpetuating it. And so I just wonder about how that has kind of played out in your experience with like holding people accountable for maybe some things, but also if there are people that might not identify as progressive that may come into a space that is progressive mm-hmm. <affirmative> , I'm wondering about how that dynamic works as well. Like, because I know there, there wants to be a safe space. Yeah. And at the same time, is there an initiative to have, have conversations with those that may be more conservative and to how do we also have that kind of process that's healthy, but also to keep, keep the dialogue going for transformation, if any of that Yeah . If I made sense.
Speaker 3:That did make sense, Lee . And I, I it's, I feel like you have hit on the central tension in pack from the beginning, which is that like, we wanna be a space that has room for everyone at any stage of their journey, right? Like, 'cause Progressive, for at least in my conception of it , progressive is not so much like you meet x, y, and Z criteria, but it's like an orientation, right? It's like what direction you're heading in. Like, and I think people are in all different stages of that journey, right? Like there's some communities for whom like wondering if again, women can have the same rights and opportunities as men is considered like a very progressive radical thought. And then there's folks who are like 700 miles ahead of that question, right? And so I think one of the tensions that we ran into in the beginning especially was like, how do we, is it possible for us to be a space for both of those things? How do we, is it possible for us to create a space where that person who's very new on their journey can ask questions , um, without inflicting harm, say on the people who are farther along? Um, because that's possible. It's possible that it's not just an annoyance, but you can cause actual harm, right? Like somebody coming in and wondering aloud if affirmation is biblical, like that is violent for a person to, to witness. Right? So specifically in that case, we had to make a decision that we do not debate that. Like we do not debate whether or not it's okay to be gay in this space, first and foremost because we have members for whom that is a, like their humanity being questioned is a violent act, but also because there's plenty of other spaces on the internet where folks can do that research and do that learning. So , um, and ditto with like, we don't, we don't, you know, this is not a space for wondering aloud if women should be allowed to be pastors because that is again, a violent act for the women in our group. Not just who are pastors, but also those who aren't. And, and there are plenty of places where people can go to learn about that or to read about that. So we kind of made a choice early on that in those instances we were always going to value the , like, the safety of our members over everything else, which I think is the right call. And I also recognize that it has repercussions, right? That there folks who are not as far along in the journey sometimes don't feel like they can ask questions. Yeah. So, you know, we hold that tension and like we hope that like folks can learn as they like read stuff in the group and as they listen to the podcast and read the things that are in the online magazine and this and that, like we hope we provide opportunities for education. But we also know that like , um, at the end of the day, like when these two kind of like core needs were in conflict, that we, we, we did have to prioritize one over the other.
Speaker 2:It just sounds like a good kind of foundational thing for a lot of people to think about because we often, somebody said to me the other day, there's a lot of, a lot of progressive circles often define , well, I actually read in the book, nobody told me this, I just read it. I
Speaker 3:Just remembered
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Um, that a lot of progressive spaces often can say what they're not
Speaker 3:Yes .
Speaker 2:And not necessarily say what they're for. Yes. And and I do think as you were talking, you know, constantly, you know, reminding people of a group like, like this is what we are about. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , this is what we're for. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> , we're not necessarily like, I mean I am against homophobia and I am against transphobia and queerphobia and all these things, but to kind of ground it in a negative to say I am for people being who God created them to be. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm . <affirmative> and kind of reorienting that. I think that's just as you were talking, that's what it made me think about. And I just think that's so helpful for people to actually know who they are in a space. Yeah . And it seems like this group is being benefited from that instead of saying we're not, I mean, you know, like, we are for this and not necessarily against you. 'cause I do think people, there are a lot of people who are gifted in that kind of in-between space of walking with someone Yes. Who is trying to figure things out mm-hmm. <affirmative> and a lot of us aren't gifted in that. Yeah. Um , it's really hard for me to do that. Yeah . And I think it's, it's a job of a , for me as a being a person, it's a lot of job for allies. Yes. And I also wonder, you know, with this group in particular, those of us, I do not identify as Asian American mm-hmm. <affirmative> , but I see myself as an ally and how we are to walk alongside and be alongside our siblings who we love. Yeah . Which is on this call right now. And what does that look like too for maybe us to also be a part of that work? What does that look like for us to be allies alongside this work?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's
Speaker 2:Such a good question in the group that you're doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's such a good question. And that also, like, again, you're just nailing all of, all of the, all of the tension points. You found all of them . Like there was a , there was a point in the beg like early on again, where, you know, in the beginning it was like, you know, we were, and it's still now, like anybody is welcome to join the group who wants to be a part of it, whether or not they identify as Asian American to the Facebook group. And there came a point when people were like, if this is an Asian American space, why are non-Asian people here talking and taking up space? And that created that sort of , this whole debate about like, there is a time and a place for affinity spaces where, you know, people are in this example, like Asian people only like in-house family conversation. Um , you don't have to worry about anybody else like, being present for that. And there's also a time and a place, I think for education spaces and where, you know, and also like , um, what whatchamacallit , like where you need like intergroup dialogue spaces, like all of these spaces are important. And the , the discussion was like, what are, what are we, you know, and I think we are kind of a , I think a bit of a hybrid, right? Because on one hand I do think that this is a space that is specifically centered on Asian Americans. And it's also important for us , um, that allies be able to like, learn from these things. 'cause we , if we want justice and change in our faith communities, like we can't do that on our own. Like, people in power and like specifically white people, and men and straight people like need to understand the complexity of these issues. So I think that like the, the balance that we struck was that like, allies can listen and read and learn, but like, this is not space for them to take up. And I think that that has been probably the, the best that we can do. I think there are some people who are still conscious or sensitive to the fact that like, there are, you know, white folks and like other non-Asian folks in the group. But, you know, if we want change to happen, it's also important for allies to be able to, to listen and read and, and you know, to, to , to understand what some of these, to , to , to learn from the conversations that are happening. So, but I think your bigger question was like, how can allies, like be a part of, can be a, like how can allies be helpful? Is that, is that, was that the question?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, but, and that might, that might answer it. Just be quiet and <laugh>
Speaker 3:Educate yourself, which
Speaker 2:Is usually the case. So <laugh> .
Speaker 3:Yeah . Yeah. I think so. I feel like, I feel like, you know, if anybody were to ask me this question, you know, even apart from conversations of pac, like how can a white person be an ally? I feel like a lot of my advice would be around like, make sure that you are reading Asian American voices and black voices and indigenous voices and Latinx voices, you know, and make sure that you are, you know, being led by and in and friendship and relationship with and all of that. And so I feel like, yeah, I feel like maybe the, you know, my, my previous response is a part of that, like, exactly as you said, like listen and learn and all of that. Um, and yeah, take up less space as you do.
Speaker 1:I think also on the subject of allyship, something that I really appreciated was , uh, just after George Floyd's death, and there were so many conversations around racial injustice, RA and racism, that the, that that PAC organized some Zoom calls for members of progressive Asian American Christians to come together to talk about like what, as how as Asian Americans, like what was our, what was our role, what could we do? How were we feeling about everything that was going on? But also, yeah, what could we do that could be a part of this push mm-hmm. For, for justice? And I thought that was pretty amazing because it would be so easy to sit on the sidelines and kind of just watch it unfold mm-hmm. <affirmative> . But the fact that there was even an attempt to bring people together to have a conversation about what that looked like and what that looked like for people of our specific identity mm-hmm. <affirmative> was pretty powerful. And I said, even in that group, I said, I, you know, I feel I might feel a little bit different than some of you because like, I also have white privilege in my, in my heritage, in my identity as well in addition to Asian American. And I'm struggling with like how to unpack all of that, but also be the ally. I know that God calls me to be for our African-American and black siblings right now mm-hmm. <affirmative> , and you know, and I just to have a space to put that I'm a , I didn't get an answer, which is fine. <laugh> Yeah. <laugh> . But to have a , a place to do that because I definitely, I'll be perfectly honest, I didn't necessarily feel comfortable saying that in an all white space. Mm-hmm . And I think that that's an aspect of allyship within groups that are for people of color and people of different identities that, that we can offer that is different from maybe some of even the, the churches that we may be a part of. Mm-hmm .
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. <affirmative> . And I think there's something really powerful to that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that, Simon. Thank you. It's really helpful. But yeah, that's really helpful. I'm thinking now not as, just like, as somebody who like oversees your organization, like I, that's really good feedback, so thanks <laugh>.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I really , I, I really appreciated that conversation. I , I'm not saying we came up with the , the five step quick fix Sure ,
Speaker 3:Sure . For everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But just to , even to do that at all was pretty, I , I was helpful for me because I didn't necessarily have access to a , at the time I didn't have like a group of Asian Americans around me who I could just be like, Hey, what do y'all think about this? Yeah . How are you
Speaker 3:Feeling about
Speaker 1:This? And what do you think our , what we could do? You know? So just to have that space again. Super. I I , I felt very glad and grateful for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I really appreciate you naming that. 'cause I feel like , um, similarly, like my Asian American friends in real life are kind of like all over the map in terms of their understanding and like their vocabulary that they have for these very abstract, nuanced concepts about, around race and racism that had like very big , um, real life effects, right? And , um, yeah, like having a space where it's kind of like everyone is closer to being on the same page and at least has like the same again, like kind of direction or orientation around wanting to do justice and like to be an ally , um, is a unique thing. So yeah. I I'm glad that it was a meaningful experience for you .
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, thank you and thank you to PAC for providing the space. And we're also very grateful to you for being with us on the podcast today. We'll be sure to put a link to progressive Asian American Christians in the show notes so that people can check it out. And just wanted to give you a second if there's anything else you'd like to add about pac .
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, first of all, for having me. Like, this is, I really appreciate this and for the thoughtful conversation , um, and for the platform that you both curate to have conversations like this. So thank you for having me. Yeah. PAC is, I mean , uh, the, the easiest way to find us is on Facebook. Um, that's where like a lot of our like main conversations and discussions happen. Um, we're also having a grief ritual , um, four Pac members, members , uh, of the community on October 1st. Um, this was something that came out of the retreat that we had over Labor Day weekend. We had our first in-person gathering since the pandemic started. Um, and some people expressed a real need for a space to grieve everything that we've lost in the last three years, like individually, collectively. Um, so two members of our group , um, Sarah Park and Vivian Shabada have really thoughtfully put together just like a grief ritual for us to go through as a community. So folks who are members of PAC are welcome to join on October 1st , uh, 5:00 PM Pacific, 8:00 PM Eastern, more details in the Facebook group.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, thank you Liz, again, for being with us and being on our podcast to talk about this. Again, everybody, we'll have links in the show notes, check them out. And again, Liz, thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a matter of eight . We want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and lead the podcast a review and give us five stars. We love that. If you have any questions for us, send them to Faith podcast@pcusa.org and check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.