A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Welcome to A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us and it just might be a matter of faith. Whether it be faith in God, faith in others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Office of Faith-Based Investing & Corporate Engagement, the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program, and Unbound: An Interactive Journal on Christian Social Justice for the Presbyterian Church (USA). Submit questions to faithpodcast@pcusa.org. LISTENING GUIDES FOUND IN PODCAST SHOW NOTES.
A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Queer Inclusion and Queer Faith w/ Amber Cantorna-Wylde
It's Gay Christmas Time!! (Halloween)!!
Special Guest: (10:16)
Amber Cantorna-Wylde, Author, Out of Focus: My Story of Sexuality, Shame, and Toxic Evangelicalism
Guest Question:
What are the personal and societal impacts of evangelical-conservative stances on queer and transgender issues?
Out of Focus: My Story of Sexuality, Shame, and Toxic Evangelicalism
Amber's Website: AmberCantornaWylde.com
Unashamed Love Collective: UnashamedLoveCollective.com
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Well, hello everyone, and welcome again to a matter of Faith AP Presby podcast. The podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and send us your question because,
Speaker 2:Because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of a , I'm gonna do the spooky noise. Ooh ,
Speaker 1:Ooh , <laugh> . Very good. Love it.
Speaker 2:It's spooky time. It's spooky
Speaker 1:Season. It's , it is spooky season. But folks, if you don't care about spooky season or our introductory conversation, that's okay. You can just look at the timestamp in the show notes to skip to the segment with our guest . But we hope you'll wanna stick around for this conversation about spooky season
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Ooh . AKA Halloween, AKA. Yes . All the things that we talk about when it comes to this time of the year, and it's a wonderful time of the year.
Speaker 1:It is. I love Halloween. Halloween.
Speaker 2:I do too . Have you ever seen that video of that little girl? I love Halloween. Hold on. What did she say? It's fricking bats <laugh> .
Speaker 1:Yep .
Speaker 2:It's fricking bats. I love Halloween. Yeah. I love that girl. Love her.
Speaker 1:Yep . Maybe
Speaker 2:I'll go as her for Halloween this year. <laugh>
Speaker 1:<laugh> . So folks, instead of a , instead of sort of a question to, to begin our podcast today, we're just gonna be talking about some Halloween traditions, because it is that time of the year. But I gotta tell you also, I think Halloween traditions change as you get older a little bit.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely.
Speaker 1:I think when you're young, there's this like, fun, innocent energy to it, and then you become a teenager slash young adult, it becomes a little bit different. And then as you transition out of being, and like early twenties, it starts to change again. And I bet it changes once again, once you have kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. Well, I wouldn't know , I don't have kids <laugh> , but
Speaker 1:I would assume that it does. It kinda like Christmas, you know how like Christmas when you're, when you're little, you're a kid, it has all this magic around it, and then you get older and wiser and you're kind of like, not jaded, but it's just not the same. And then you have kids, and then it's like, oh, seeing Christmas through my child's eyes brings the magic back. I've heard that so often. So, yeah .
Speaker 2:I wonder if it's the same with Halloween. Yeah . And I have movies . It's really fun. Yeah, it's really fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah. When
Speaker 2:You have kids around and they're doing their thing, and I love to watch Halloween movies and, but the wholesome ones, the scary ones I don't mess with.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't mess
Speaker 1:With them
Speaker 2:At all. Yeah .
Speaker 1:And there's just some fun traditions at Halloween, obviously getting dressed up, maybe putting out some spooky Halloween decorations around your, your property or your home. Maybe building h uh, what are they called? Like cookie haunted houses instead of gingerbread houses, like
Speaker 2:Christmas time . Oh , yeah , that's the thing now .
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Yeah . That's thing now . Yeah. My fiance and I built one the other day, and man, this one was so good both in how easily it went together and how it tasted,
Speaker 2:But I do love some candy corn, which I know is controversial to those people out there. And it's delicious and I will not hear otherwise. And the little pumpkins.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the
Speaker 2:Little candy corn pumpkins.
Speaker 1:I love those too. I'm
Speaker 2:With ,
Speaker 1:I'm right there with you. Delicious. Yeah. I'll say you gotta
Speaker 2:Get the name brand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you gotta get the name brand
Speaker 2:Plus the bros , what is it called? That one?
Speaker 1:Whatever it is. Yeah. But I will say on about the house, it really depends on what kind of a kit you're using or if you're building it from scratch, if you have a good kit, makes it so much easier. This one that we used for this , uh, like cookie monster house. Spooky house, yeah. It fit together like a simple jigsaw puzzle. The icing tasted great, it had structural integrity. It wasn't leaning <laugh> , it didn't look like it was about to fall apart. So I will say that,
Speaker 2:Yeah , but we use cheap ones.
Speaker 1:I will say that that really does depend. But on the topic of candy corn and the controversy, I saw this great meme earlier today, which was a , it was a pyramid that outlined the use of candy corn at Halloween, number one at the top of the pyramid, buy candy, corn level two. And step two was throw out candy, corn. And level three was, I
Speaker 2:Never posted that.
Speaker 1:And level three was eat a Reese's Cup. And I was like, come on people.
Speaker 2:Candy
Speaker 1:Corn's good.
Speaker 2:I No , no , no, no, no. I mean, some candy corn and like some Chex mix with some peanuts.
Speaker 1:Oh, some salty and sweet. Okay .
Speaker 2:I mean, you can't beat that. Yeah, you can't beat that. And I really, Halloween has always been fun, and me and Simon were talking about this before, and we talked about Christmas and how some of these things kind of overlap, but somebody wrote a piece for Unbound that'll be published next week. Uh, Rosa Ross wrote a piece that is gonna be published called What the Church Can Learn From Gay , from Gay Christmas, Halloween as Spiritual Resistance. I love that . So for those of you that don't know, sometimes Halloween is kind of like the gay Christmas because of the dressing up and things like that. You know, there are many of us in the community, like when you're kind playing with gender and all these things, Halloween is just that invitation to kind of be a little bit more outward facing if you're not someone who's ready to come out or like do these things. And so it's just a space for like, creativity. It's a space for, you know, just kind of like letting go of all the constraints that we have when it comes to dress in a way. And I think it's just very inviting to folk during this time because Rosa Li outlines that Halloween comes before like the traditional holidays that we all kind of fall into these like family dynamics that can often be really hard for folk. And so, Thanksgiving, Christmas, all these things that's, it can be really hard for us. And so Halloween is just that, that moment before all this, that we can just kind of be ourselves and do whatever we want to do. And I think it is, to call it gay Christmas is really funny, but it is also very, very true when it is something that kind of invites everyone to do a little experimentation on how they, you know, present themselves in whatever gender they want to identify as. So that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. And I've had, I mean, I've seen, I believe it's a pretty similar experience at things like anime and comic conventions where people are cosplaying and dressed up. That there's a term in the, at least that I'm aware of in sort of the, maybe we call it the, the weeb or geek community where you Yeah . Will have folks who gender bend a character, which just means, Hey, this, in the , in this show or this comic or this game, or whatever it is, this character , uh, is female presenting. And now someone who is male presenting is cosplaying as that character. And I love that. Yeah . It's like their take their spin on it. It's like, awesome. You do, you own it. Beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And Halloween is often, a lot of churches don't know how to handle it. Some people embrace it, and I get that, but some people are like, that's of the devil. We're not doing Halloween, we're doing a fall festival, and people dress up anyway in like <laugh> Halloween costumes. It's kind of weird. But it is something that is, you know, meant to kind of be a time to remember our ancestors who have passed, like all Hallow Eve is one of those times of like, that's kind of what that means. And so I don't know why the church has a problem with it, but we used to go up, go into hell houses, and I think I've mentioned this before
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That
Speaker 1:You've talked about in past Halloween
Speaker 2:Instead of haunted, haunted houses, but we were also in a , we also were made to work in a haunted house too, which is interesting. And yeah, I don't recommend that, but I also don't recommend hell Houses . But those things are kind of the weirdness that when Christianity and Halloween kind of mix , when it was all meant to kind of be reverent to, you know, our, so the souls of those who have gone past. And I think it's really interesting. I love this time of year, I really do. It's very mysterious and very spiritual, and I think we should all embrace it and, you know, maybe embrace, like, dressing up and, and like that sense of play. So it's , but it's really interesting that yeah, it can be a point of resistance Halloween.
Speaker 1:Well, folks, I wonder if there's other sort of significances for yourself, for your family or your community around Halloween. Why don't you write in and let us know. Personally, I think I'm just gonna sit here and enjoy gay Christmas, not just not as a member of the community, but just that concept. I love, I love that term. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And
Speaker 1:I look forward to reading that reflection or article that you mentioned that will be coming out on Unbound. But yeah, folks, let us know what memories or Significances Halloween has for you and your community. We'd love to hear them. And we hope that you'll enjoy our conversation with Amber Contorno Wild about the impacts of evangelical conservative perspectives on transgender and issues. It's a really, really insightful conversation. And Amber has a book that has just come out, and we hope that you'll wanna check that out as well. So enjoy our conversation with
Speaker 2:Amber.
Speaker 1:Well , we are so excited to be joined on this episode of A Matter of Faith a Presby podcast by a very special guest. Joining us is Amber Canna Wild, who is the author of Out of Focus, my Story of Sexuality, shame, and Toxic Evangelicalism. Amber, thank you so much for being with us today.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me. It's a joy to be here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Amber, it's good to meet you and it's gonna be really great to have a conversation with you. But before we get started, we'll start out with our question and then we'll just see where the spirit takes us. So our question reads, what are the personal and societal impacts of evangelical conservative stances on and transgender issues? That is a large, and that's a huge question, <laugh> . It's , but it's , uh, we would love to hear your response to,
Speaker 3:Well, it is a big question. We'll just, we'll just jump right in, right, <laugh>?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, because I feel like this is really at the heart of why I'm doing what I do and probably why you're doing what you do. You know, some of what you do, and I think it's just this idea of that's being perpetuated, that being gay or being trans or being non-binary is a sin is still having such a massive impact globally. But, you know, like we're talking about our nation specifically , um, and is perpetuating so much homophobia and transphobia, which is then leading into, you know, acts of hate and violence or , uh, internalized homophobia and suicide. And we just see this so rampant in our country right now. And I mean, it , it has been for a long time, but I feel like it's ramping up even more and more with the divisiveness that we've seen in our country. And largely that is due because of religious views that say being gay or being transgender is not acceptable in the eyes of God, really. Do we see someone who's pushed outta their family for being L-G-B-T-Q that doesn't have a religious reason behind it? Right. It's usually got some religious basis. Um, and yet the statistics that we're seeing are grave in terms of homelessness. You know, L-L-G-B-T-Q youth are 120% more likely to experience homelessness than non LGBT youth and things in terms of suicide, LGBT youth are more than four times as likely to attempt suicide. Only 37% of L-G-B-T-Q youth say their home is affirming. And so those who face high levels of parental rejection are actually eight times more likely to attempt suicide than their straight peers. And that is largely due to family rejection because of their religious beliefs. Um, and yet the Trevor Project has done a study that says LGBT Youth who report having at least one accepting adult were 40% less likely to attempt suicide in the past year. One, accepting adult is all it takes to make a massive difference in reducing suicide. And so I think that is the larger conversation that we're trying to have, right? Is the fact that being accepted in your homes and in your churches isn't just a matter of theology. It's a matter of life and death for so many people.
Speaker 2:It is just that, like, that little bit that, that little effort that one person can make. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And I don't think, I think a lot of the times when we're having conversations, when we're talking societally, when we're talking like, how are we gonna change or do something about the homophobia or phobia or transphobia that is out there specifically in our faith spaces, sometimes it really is hard to kind of grasp like the enormity of it. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3:<affirmative> .
Speaker 2:But I think it also does help, you know, if one so chooses to hear how it does impact someone, and I know I have, I have my own story, and before we hit record on this, we, we talked about, you know, how are we creating space for people to tell their story? And you do that a little bit in your book and Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3:<affirmative> .
Speaker 2:And, and I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that because of this does impact us as a community. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . But because we are ourselves and our ourselves as individuals, it does impact us all very, very differently. And it manifests itself so in so many different ways. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And so I know you talk a little bit about it in the book, but how has this kind of impacted your story? And you can Yeah. Give us what you want. So, but we , Noah's gonna be in the book, but I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that too, because it does impact us deeply as we experience it.
Speaker 3:Well, you're absolutely right. Everybody has a different experience that is specific to their family, their religious upbringing, and yet collectively we are seeing these trends, right? That lean towards internalized homophobia and conversion therapy and , uh, self-hatred and suicidal ideation because of those things. Um, as well as things like family rejection and being pushed out of your church or your job simply for being who you are. And these things are detrimental to us individually and collectively, right? Like we see it impacting the L-G-B-T-Q community as a whole. But it also is very personal to those of us individually that identify as L-G-B-T-Q. And like you mentioned a moment ago, it is a broad national topic and issue, but it also is deeply personal. And if people can see that personal aspect and be able to relate often that , that's why I love stories, right? Because stories, I think more than debating theology or anything else, have the power to change hearts and minds because it's one thing to, you know, hate people on a broader ideological level. It's another thing when that person becomes your, your cousin or your aunt or your parent, right? And then it becomes personal to you. And so I think telling our stories is so important, and that has the, the ability to change and shift culture and to change the narrative towards inclusion. Um, which is a big part of why I am writing out of focus, to share my story. Because what I've quickly realized is that it's not just my story, right? Like this is a collective story I am sharing about those of us that grew up in the church, and specifically under organizations like Focus on the Family. I grew up with a father that is in a largely influential position at Focus on the Family. He's worked there my entire life. And so that was the foundation of my upbringing. And it's so interesting to me how we talk about God is the God of love and inclusion. And my mom would always tell me, you know, Amber friends will come and go, but your family will always be there for you. And yet, when it came to my own personal coming out, that was the furthest thing from the truth. My family were the ones that disowned me and abandoned me in the name of God in love. And I had to build a new chosen family around me that then became, you know, the people that I leaned on in those hard times. And so it's really a, a matter of sharing our stories and having this conversation on a broader level in order to shift this narrative towards inclusion. Um, for, for the sake of, like I said, not just ideological and theological reasons, but for simply reducing harm to people and reducing suicide and reducing hate crimes , um, that are happening often in the name of God and love.
Speaker 1:We had a conversation on another podcast , uh, this was a , a conversation with Judee Kule , who's from The House of Rainbow, which does work on raising awareness around issues, particularly in areas outside of the us , uh, such as various countries in in Africa.
Speaker 3:Hmm .
Speaker 1:And something that he called it attention to, which I had not realized, was also that the evangelical conservative perspective on issues is something that is exported from, and has always has been exported from countries in the west
Speaker 3:Yes .
Speaker 1:To other places, particularly through missionaries and then through colonization and so on. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and so forth. Absolutely . And so this, these personal and societal impacts that you're describing are not, they're not just here <laugh> . There are other places as well because of that perspective. And so we're exporting that damage
Speaker 3:Absolutely. As
Speaker 1:Well, which is absolutely terrifying, frankly. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Yeah . And really sad.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Well, and you think of, I mean, James Dobson is the perfect example, right? Like James Dobson, folks in the family grew to this global powerhouse that has influenced around the world the perspective on a number of issues regarding family and marriage. And it's, people just being one of them. But there's so many things that are being perpetuated not just within Colorado Springs or within the us but globally. And yes, it is terrifying to think that this is having such a massive impact on such a broad level.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it's one of those things that we, and within the United States, and even in Europe now, a lot of people may not know the power that these organizations do have. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And it's not just focused on the family, like the organization that does the national prayer breakfast out there. Y'all need to be looking into that because a lot of these organizations fund and put money out there to create these laws and their templates and all these things. And, and I think also going back to how that impacts us as a community globally, to see our siblings in Uganda or , uh, in, well thankfully in Kenya, they, they are kind of getting a little bit better. But in countries in Africa experience such brutal violence Mm-Hmm . Towards it. And it may manifest itself differently there, but in all reality, we're all connected to this and we're kind of perpetuating it here. But it also just goes again to this like, in how it impacts us individually. That interview was very hard for me. And I , I don't, I don't know many gay people in on the African continent, but just because of that experience, like even that trauma can kind of also kind of hit our own trauma as people. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> .
Speaker 3:Yeah .
Speaker 2:And I think that a lot of it, specifically when we're talking about these organizations, their mo is shame. And I know you talk a lot about that in your book. It do . And I wonder if you can talk about it a little bit and how it kind of, how they kind of use that as mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , I mean, obviously a tactic Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> to , to create and get to what they want. So I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that, because it's just a through line that the creation of shame is kind of the way things can be manipulated and people can go through these , these traumatic experiences.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think shame is a huge tactic and tool that is used by evangelicalism , um, as a whole to kind of manipulate people into believing and behaving the way they want them to. Right. Um , and I saw that a great deal in not, I mean, certainly in my upbringing, but then even more so in my coming out , um, when my parents would say, you know, you've turned your back on God and everything we ever taught you, we'd rather you completely turn your back on God and be gay than pretend that everything between you and God is okay. Like the door is always open if you ever change. Right. And so there's all these, suddenly there's all these strings attached to love. Um, and being who you were expected to be , um, you know, my parents would say they were so ashamed of me , um, and embarrassed by me and , and the impact that this had on my dad's reputation. And , uh, even told me like, don't ever tell anybody because this will ruin your reputation forever. You know, like there was so much , um, trying to manipulate and coerce to control me into being what they wanted me to be, which also I think, you know , largely impacts their, their reputation. Right. And how people perceive them as parents and as leaders in the evangelical community and those kind of things. But it does, I feel like so much of my upbringing was steeped in shame. And that really, when you, when you believe, you know, like we talk about guilt and shame, you know, guilt is having, like, feeling like you've done something wrong. And shame is, I am something wrong. So when you have that embedded in you that who I am at my core is wrong , um, and needs to be fixed or changed or healed by conversion therapy or, you know , um, suppressing who you are to please others, it is toxic and lethal. And that is where we see this, this spiral of internalized homophobia that then leads to so many dark things, you know, of, of drugs and alcoholism and so many risky behaviors. But then also to suicide. Right. Because we believe there's no way out. I didn't think there was any way out. I didn't think there was any chance for someone who was , wanted to be both gay and a person of faith that did not coexist in my world. That, that that wasn't possible. And so it's very easy to feel like you have no other option because you're, you're put at this crossroads of either I give up who I am to, to please God and my family, or I risk being who I am, and I lose everything. Um, and, and that was the case for me. I, I did end up losing everything by being authentic to who I was. And so it's, it came at a high cost. And I just think how different it could be, how different my life could have been, and how different so many people's lives could be if their parents were simply affirming. Like, if it wasn't an issue that had to be talked about and discussed and pitted against your eternal destiny of heaven or hell, right? There's so much harm reduction that could happen. Um, and there's so much more joy and inclusion and love that could allow people to flourish rather than to struggle so much. I know my parents had this kind of view of like, well being , you know, like, we don't want your life to be hard or, or a lot of, i , not even my parents, but I think a lot of people in general think, well, like, I don't want my kid to be. 'cause being is just so hard. But evangelical Christians are the ones that are making it hard, right? Like, they're the ones that are making it hard for us. If they were inclusive and they were accepting and affirming, it wouldn't be so hard. It's not hard when you're celebrated and you're loved for who you are. It's only hard when you're being ostracized and marginalized and , um, oppressed for being who you are. So I think being able to, to have those conversations, and that's why I love things like free mom hugs and the Mama Bears that are changing the narrative for parents that are , um, allowing them to, to include and embrace their children, because that is the catalyst of what will shift this narrative.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you mentioned that. I was having a conversation with some, I'll just say with some fellow Christians <laugh> , uh, recently , uh, and they were talking about how folks in either in their own family or in extended family, or in friends' families who were coming out or , um, you know, announcing their transition going by different pronouns, a variety of different circumstances for, for different people. But it was said, oh, you know, I feel bad be , uh, they said exactly what you said, I feel bad because their life is going to be hard.
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 1:And, and my response to that, not as a member of, of the community, but as an ally, I said, I, I said, yeah, but I wanna push back on that a little bit. Why is it going to be hard? And where is the problem there? But also if, you know, people talk about like, oh, it'll be hard, it'll be difficult for them. And I said, well, which is more faith , which is a more faithful living into our calling as Christians, letting people live into who God calls them to be, or we simply don't allow them to do that, because it's hard that, and I was like, the choice is very obvious to me there Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3:<affirmative> .
Speaker 1:And therefore we need to change systems to allow for us to all live into who God calls us to be.
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 1:Um, and that resonated with them in that circumstance, which is, which is great. It doesn't, that doesn't land with everyone. Right . But it's like that little prodding that reminding of like, oh, yeah, there is like theological concepts at work here. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3:<affirmative> , this
Speaker 1:Isn't just this black and white issue as it has been portrayed by conservative evangelical Christianity.
Speaker 3:Right. Well, and we're seeing now with documentaries like , uh, the 1946 documentary that is showing evidence and proof of, you know, the history of the , even the word homosexuality in the Bible. So many of us believe that, like, that's just always the way that it's always been. That word has always been there. That is not the case. That word did not enter any translation of any Bible until 1946, which is in like a lot of our parents and grandparents' lifetimes. Um, and you know, when you , when you do the research and you read Kathy Bock's work and you watch this documentary, you see that it was actually a mistranslation of the text that was later corrected. But by the time it was corrected, it had already been, been so widely spread and done so much harm that there was no like way to backpedal from it, you know? 'cause it was, the translation that it was entered into was the RSV translation, which was the same translation that was handed out at Billy Graham Crusades, which, you know, and so then it just spread like wildfire. And so to backpedal that theology after that being so influential was obviously we're still, we're still trying to do that. Um, but I'm excited to see some of this research coming out because I think, again, this is one of the pieces that has the ability to change the course of history for people of faith moving forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I often don't think specifically like we can be in a very progressive bubble. I mean, they're all, we can all be very siloed and we can all be very like in our own little bubbles. And the Presbyterian church USA is very progressive when it comes to ordination. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3:<affirmative> ,
Speaker 2:We marry people. Yep . All these things. However, I don't often think that it's, we can, we, can we understand the, the amount of damage that has been done because of the ways in which , uh, conservative evangelicalism really did do well Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> in spreading their message. Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 4:<affirmative> .
Speaker 2:And what's very intentional. I grew up on Billy Graham. I grew up on, you know, TBN and Televangelism Yeah . And all these things that were very much good at what they were meant to do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And , you know, to simplify the message of salvation, to simplify the message and make it a black and white thing, you get saved and you go to hell and you have to abide by these rules. And you're good. If this is what you do, you are going to get to heaven. And there you go. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And it was very easy to sell that message.
Speaker 4:Yep .
Speaker 2:And I think as you were talking that this was a mistranslation and then later corrected and how quick that kind of, they took that and ran with the fact that, well , this says it, and how we are, we are now trying to undo that and, and what that means for fate spaces that are inclusive and progressive. And not trying to say we should pit ourselves against anybody, but I wonder how we are to con how we are to continue to undo this stuff. Because while church is also becoming less and less in the mainstream society, specifically here in the us , I mean, it's a whole different story in Europe and around the world, but I do think we have a lot of work to do because even in our tradition, because we have a policy on it, a lot of people think it's done. Oh , we've accepted it, it's done, and we've made a check mark. Mm-Hmm . And now we're good. Mm-Hmm . When in reality, not really many people. If people don't, people are very shocked that I am a minister in the Presbyterian church and I'm a person.
Speaker 4:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 2:It is a shock that that is even a thing. And I think a lot of people don't know, and a lot of people don't realize because the evangelical movement has cast a national narrative and are doing a good job of it. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> of what it means to be a Christian.
Speaker 4:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 2:And so I app I always appreciate books and people like you to counteract that because it is, it is a hard thing to go up against because they did such a good job of it.
Speaker 4:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 2:<affirmative> . And I wonder, like do , if , if , have you, because you have such deep experience in that kind of, that machine that has <laugh> done so well in promoting this. I just wonder what you think about that too, because it is about messaging too, and how well the evangelical movement has just messaged this hate in a way, branded it, I would say. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 4:<affirmative> .
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Yeah. And I think you're right that because we've kind of siloed ourselves, it's easy for people to think, oh, we like, like the PC USA , like, oh, we've moved past this. Like, because it's no longer an issue for us. It's no longer an issue. Right. And that's just not the case. Like, the amount of impact it's still having on so many, I mean, there's 45,000 evangelical churches still in America, and they're all teaching this idea that being gay or being trans is a sin . And so this is still a widely spread issue that is being perpetuated through these messages through big organizations like Focus on the Family and so many others, obviously. Um, but I did feel like it was important to, 'cause I actually, I actually wrote my story. My first book came out in 2016, and I was fairly newly out when that book released. Um, and I took a bit of a different approach. I took a softer approach 'cause I was still newly out. Um, I, I, I felt like maybe there was hope for reconciling with my family. I wanted to kind of reach those people on the inside, you know? And here we are, almost a decade later, eight , eight years, and I've published another book in the middle of that. But then being able to get the rights back to that book and kind of rewrite, it felt important to me because so much has changed over the last eight to 10 years. Right. Like, we've experienced so much as a country , um, and the development of, of resources, but also the division in so many ways with things like the Trump presidency and the pandemic. And like, we've just gone through so many things. And to write it now feels drastically different than to write it eight to 10 years ago. Um, and , and where I sit after eight to 10 years of advocacy work is also very different because I've seen the impact that it has, not just on me, but on so many people that have messaged me around the world. Um, I see this, this same message being influenced into these people's lives. And so I did, I did take a very different approach in telling my story this time, and I did take a much stronger approach in talk in addressing these things that are doing harm to people in the name of God. Um, I, I address eugenics and I address conversion therapy, and I address mental health and I address suicide. And I address all these things that are not only a component of my story, but a component of our larger collective story as people. Um, because I feel like we are at a critical point in history where we have to call out complicity and complacency , um, and, and hold accountable these institutions that are, that are essentially killing people in the name of God. Right. And so, I, I did take a much different stance, and I feel like that's what is needed at this point in history, is to, to be that voice that not only shares the story, but ties the thread together between what is happening on this larger national level with these organizations. And how that filters down to a very personal experience with my family and my story, because it's doing the same to every other person across the nation and around the world.
Speaker 1:And I really appreciate your honesty and being willing to share your story because you didn't have to, and you, but you chose to do that , uh, in order to also uplift the voices of, of, of many others in the community as well. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 1:And I wanted to ask you if you had sort of a, maybe I won't wanna say a charge, but maybe some advice or guidance for people who are interested in trying to do more work on these issues. And I say that ask that from a couple different angles. Um, for example, for people who are not in the community, but want to be allies, what does that look like? Because I think sometimes we think we know what it means, and then we realize we haven't asked and we just do <laugh> . Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Um , or I'll also say this much even within affirming and inclusive churches like the Presbyterian Church, USA not every church is the same. Not every congregation's the same. Right.
Speaker 3:And
Speaker 1:There's a difference between inclusive , being inclusive and affirming and being tolerant. That's very different.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Um , and , and also even within the community itself, the community itself is not homogenous. Ev there's Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , you know, there's a variety of communities within that. And so if you're looking at the different, different people who are interested in trying to do more, what, what , uh, what guidance would you, would you give us?
Speaker 3:Well, I feel like there's a lot of different angles that you could look at this from. I mean, there's obviously the big broader level of things like voting, right? Like voting for the rights of people who are having their rights taken away from them. For transgender people that are not getting the healthcare they need for, I mean, I know multiple families right now who are relocating states because their children are afraid and discriminated and struggling in the state that they live. And so being strong and advocating for , um, on , on every political level, you know, from national, down to your local school board of advocating for rights and representation , um, because that is gonna make an impact on the broader level of, of healthcare and equal rights and acceptance on a national level. Right? But then there's things like, in terms of churches, making sure that you are inclusive. Like, 'cause like you said, there's, there's tolerant and then there's actually affirming. And so having, I always feel like it's really important to not just, you know, have a rainbow flag outside, but also to show diversity in your staff and make sure that you have people in all levels of leadership. Because if I were to walk into a church looking for a safe place to be, that's what I would watch for is, is there people that look like me in leadership? Or is it all white, straight males? Right. Um, is, is the congregation diverse or are they all looking and acting the same? I'm looking for that diversity. I'm looking for that celebration that will draw me in to make me feel like I belong. Uh, so those kind of things, having a very clear statement on your website , um, that is fully affirming of all people. You know, like, that is one of the first things I would look for. So those are things that are very simple, you know, in terms of like a statement on your website. That's something that's very simple to do, but makes a huge difference for a person who already has religious trauma that's possibly looking for a safe place to be. So I would really encourage churches to look at those kind of things. Um , and then in terms of like being an ally on a very personal level, I think it takes being very intentional, right? Um, because people often lose a , a variety of degrees of things when they come out. It , it comes at a cost more so for some than for others. But you, you , you have jobs, you have churches, you have families, you have all these different levels and degrees of loss that can be happening. And that in itself is, is very isolating and very lonely and can often be overlooked when, you know, I think we give a lot of care and concern to that when somebody has initially come out. Um, but we don't think about it so much when somebody's been out for five or 10 or 15 years. Right? And so being very intentional in connecting with people and , um, inviting them to your Thanksgiving table, celebrating them on their birthday, doing simple little things like that, I think can make the biggest difference in the world to a person who , um, is , is out but maybe doesn't have the support that they still need. Or maybe they've gone through seasons of support, you know, where they, they felt really supported in a church for a while, and then they ended up moving or going to a different church, and they have to start that community over. And so I think anytime that we can be very intentional in investing in the lives of people and helping them feel like they have a space to belong , um, that also can be lifesaving , uh, because I , I don't think it's, I don't think we should assume that just because they've been out for 10, 12, 15 years that they have it all figured out, or they've got this really strong chosen family surrounding them, or they, because that's not always the case, you know? Um, and so I know I've always appreciated it when people have, when they have done that for me, and when they've stepped up and been very intentional in , in something as simple as reaching out, making a phone calls, a text, checking in, how are you doing? You know, like those kind of things can come in the loneliest moments when you feel like you don't have any family to rely on or you don't have the support that you need for whatever you're going through. And that, I think, is something that is on a, on , you know, you take it from the voting level, which is really big and broad, right down to a very personal level of , um, finding those people that are in your immediate sphere of influence to invest in and be very, very intentional about that. And, and being intentional in the fact that to show up for them means you're committing to a certain level of, of being there for them because they have lost so much already. So making sure that when you, when you call yourself an ally and you want to invest in someone, you take that seriously to, because to invest in someone's life and to show up, some of, you know, there are relationships that last for a season. Uh , but to, to say that you're gonna be an ally and show up in someone's life, and then only to, I guess people have experienced so much disappointment already that you wanna make sure that you're very intentional in how you, how you do that, how you go about that. So as to not further set them up for disappointment when they think, oh, I finally found these people that are my chosen family. Right. And then to realize, oh, actually they're, they're not who they said they were, or they didn't show up for me in the way that I really needed when I really needed them. Um, and so I think being very careful of those kind of things and very intentional, realizing that , um, there's a lot of religious trauma, there's a lot of loss, there's a lot of grief, there's a lot of complicated layers at play when , um, when it comes to people specifically that are coming out of the church and doing whatever we can to help kind of mitigate that harm and, and heal those wounds.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I also always remind people, because some people may think that this doesn't impact their community. I am from a town of 700 people in South Carolina, and I'll go ahead and tell you there are people there. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . I am one of few that are out. But I do know, no matter where we are, no matter what location we're at, there are, there are people. There always have been. There always will be. And I think it's, it's also important for everybody in , in each of their contexts to, to do what you were just saying. I, if I had the choice, I would live in my hometown. I am a country boy, would love a farm, but I don't feel safe doing that.
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 2:And I think, you know, there is a lot of people in our , in our community are grieving their homes and where they're from and their rootedness. And I also think that that is something
Speaker 3:Yeah . That
Speaker 2:We also all need to start talking about is what does it mean for us to be, and for us to be rooted and for us to have a home that we want to have. And I think that, that it is more nuanced in that way because I have to remind people at work. I'm like, there are people in the mountains of Appalachia. There are people who, who want to be there. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And I think that is something that we often don't talk about Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> queerness as it intersects with migration and moving away from your home that you feel connected with. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3:<affirmative> .
Speaker 2:And so having that conversation around grief, like you were saying Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> I think is very, very important. I mean, we lose that idea of what home is <laugh> . Yeah . And we have to kind of create that ourselves no matter where we are in places that might feel safer for us if we can do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah .
Speaker 2:But some of us can't move Mm-Hmm . Some of us can't do that. And we're very privileged in that way. And I think having more nuanced conversations about that too is it's something we really need as well because we are grieving so many different things Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> at once, even though my family have come a long way and have been very supportive, I still couldn't live in that space, I don't think. Mm-Hmm . So,
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just a lot.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's such a good point. I think that's so true. I feel , I definitely feel that, like, that missing of like my hometown and like the environment that I grew up in. Like , I miss that. And I, I often feel like to be accepted or to feel safe, I need to move to a larger metropolitan city. But that's not who I am. I don't enjoy that fast-paced life. And I would much rather, and be much happier in a smaller, more rural town, but I don't feel safe there. And so it's like, where do I belong? Where do I go? Uh, so I feel that on a very deep level. But I think that also kind of leans into the other thing that allies can do is to be vocal and to stand up, right? Like, to take a vocal stand for people and to, to take those arrows. People like Stan Mitchell talk about taking the arrows of people. And if you're not getting hit with arrows, you're not standing close enough. And so I think making sure that as allies, that you're being vocal , um, in standing up and stopping that homophobic joke and in , you know, defending the person that is at the table in the room. Um, or even if you don't know that, because the thing is, like they're people are there, whether you know it or not. Like they're sitting, they're listening, they're watching to find out who their safe person is, and for you to stand up and take a stand, whether, you know, if there's somebody in the room or not. Those people are watching and they're listening and they're, they're gauging who they're safe with, where they can go, who, who who will listen, who will make them feel safe like they belong, where what do they have to avoid? Um, and so I think using your voice as an ally is a very powerful tool , tool as well to not only help people identify who is, who is safe, but also , um, to, to know that somebody is fighting for them.
Speaker 2:Just to follow up on that, I know a lot of the times we are asked to tell our story. I mean, you even wrote yours down and sometimes it could be re-traumatizing, think . Absolutely. And I think that's a, you know, that's another question. And another thing that the church always has to wrestle with is, and, and it's with people, it's with people of color, it's with any marginalized group to, to be asked to tell a story is to also relive it. Mm-Hmm . And so I wonder, as folk, some of us make and do that easier than others. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> that how we approach that, how we educate ourselves Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> specifically for allies and people out there, you know, that balance of, of what we ask of our siblings when we can do that education ourselves. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . So I wonder, and we can talk about the book specifically, but I wonder, you know, what would you say about that too? Because we are often asked to, to tell our stories a lot. Um, and it's hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I almost didn't rewrite this book. Like I knew it was gonna be hard and I wasn't sure that I was , that I had it in me to do it again. You know, it , it is hard. It is re-traumatizing in a way because you are having to relive those things over and over and over as you write them down. And then as you talk about them and as you share them with others, and there are those of us that feel called to do that. Um, and there are those that don't. And I don't think that people need to feel the pressure to, to necessarily be that voice if that is not their calling. You know, it's kind of along the same lines of, of defending theology. I do not believe that people should be the one defending theology to the church. Like, unless that is your calling, which there are a few that feel that way. But I think that allies should be the ones that are doing that educating and that people are educating themselves, like you said, much like people of color. It's not our job to educate them , um, on what it's like to be in our shoes. It's their job to go do the research that is available to them because it is available to them now. And to, to learn and to grow and then to ask questions. Yes. But to do the hard work themselves and not rely on us to constantly re-traumatize ourselves by putting ourselves in that position. So I, I very much agree that when it comes to sharing our stories, that's a sacred thing , um, that we allow to those we feel safe to do it with. And only when you feel safe to do it, I don't think you should ever do it unless you feel safe to do it. Um, because it is, it's a sacred thing. We were, I was just talking yesterday with someone about, we were reading and , and I don't even know the name of the person 'cause they were sharing it with me, but somebody was talking about how it , rather than coming out, it's a, it's a letting in. I'm letting you in on my story rather than coming out. And I really love that approach because it, it is, it's, it's me being vulnerable and sharing a sacred space with you , um, a a vulnerable piece of who I am that , uh, I entrust to those that have earned the, the right to be in that room with me. Right. And not everybody deserves that space. And so I think it's a matter too of, of knowing that and finding those boundaries , um, to protect yourself. Because as a person, we're having to come out our entire lives over and over again to new people We meet and to new coworkers and new doctors, and like, it's a continual process throughout our lives. And finding those boundaries of, of what we're willing to share and what we're willing to say when and when, you know, when we're able to do that, when we feel up to doing that, when we have the capacity for that, and when we just need to draw a line and , and decide that that's not where we need to be on that given day or whatever, you know, and making sure that we're taking care of ourselves and our own mental health.
Speaker 1:And for, for those of us that are allies or, or friends, those that are allowed, like you said, let in to, to hear that story or to , you know, to to hear it from someone themselves about their experience. Or maybe they are, maybe it is coming out in like every sense of, of the word. Like you said, that there's a lot of trust. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And that's very sacred. I had a friend who came out to me, I was a much younger person, and already I look back, I mean, I think even within a year of that experience, I looked back and said, you know, I handled that. Okay, but I could have handled that better. I could have better acknowledged the, the sort of gravity Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 3:<affirmative>
Speaker 1:And the weight of what was being shared with me. Um, because my response in that situation was, you're my friend. That's all that matters to me. You're awesome the way you are. Great. Right. But I also, I also asked this person, I said like, have you told any of our other friends? Have you told your parents? And I recognize that that was partly out of my own curiosity. And also because in my mind, as a privilege straight heterosexual male, I can't imagine a world where my family or my friends might not support me.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:But that may not be the case for this person or anyone else.
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 1:And they may never feel comfortable sharing that story with any of those other people. Right . Their own story or , and that is their choice to do that. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . But I wasn't mature enough at the time to really comprehend all of that. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , I'd like to think that I've grown since then. But I think that's important for, for us as allies to, like you said, remember this is something that's very sacred and we have to treat that with a lot of respect. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3:<affirmative> . And
Speaker 1:I think that the, maybe the best thing we can do is again, acknowledge the, acknowledge that, and then make sure that we keep loving that person for who they are and as they are. Because that's also our calling as Christians too. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, we don't need to add extra questions. We don't need to do anything else. If there's something else people want us to do, they'll tell us. <laugh> .
Speaker 3:Yeah. And even asking, how can I support you? What can I do to better support you? What can I do to be a good ally to you? You know, those kind of questions are usually very welcomed. Um, and so how can I show up for you in this space and support you and the way that feels supportive to you? Because what we think is supportive doesn't always feel supporting to the person that needs it. And so just making sure that we're, we're intentional in how we connect and how we support them.
Speaker 2:Yeah . Just always ask <laugh>. Yeah . And , um, but we did wanna give you a little bit of time just to talk specifically about the book out of Focus. Uh, what can we expect, what's all in there, how we get it when it comes out, all those things. And yeah, we'll just give you a little time to talk a little about, specifically about the book, because it sounds like a very powerful, powerful thing. So, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you. Um, yeah. So out of Focus releases October 24th, and it's available wherever books are sold. So you can get it on paperback, you can get it on , uh, Kindle or ebook. You can get it , uh, audiobook will be available. I just finished recording that in the studio about a week and a half ago, which was a lot of fun. Um, and so I'm, I'm very excited about the audio version just because it felt like I was getting to bring it to life, you know, from like th you know, from two D on print to, to life , uh, in the way that I wrote it and, and want it to be heard. So that was really fun. But , uh, yeah, it'll be available wherever books are sold. Uh , I would love for you to, to pre-order it or go ahead and get a copy and to share it with your friends. Um, I'm also doing a number of speaking engagements So if that is something that resonates with you and your community and you would like to bring an out of focus event to your community, I'd love for you to reach out to me on my website , um, at amber cantor wild.com . It's, it really is, the book itself is, is my story of growing up and coming out of, you know, this evangelical epicenter that is focused on the family. And I actually am naming my father in the book for the very first time, and I've never done that before. Um, but kind of going back to what I felt was important in, in kind of holding these institutions accountable and , um, I felt like it was very clear to be , uh, it was very important to be clear about what my story is so that we can kind of have this larger conversation about , um, of , of changing this complicity and complacency , um, and, and holding these institutions accountable so that we can see more inclusion for people. And so it does address things like eugenics that addresses topics of, of purity culture, and the influence that's had on , um, several generations. It addresses things like mental health and the importance of addressing mental health , um, when you come from a culture that treats it as taboo. Um, talking about just the number of , uh, you know, conversion therapy and all these kind of different components that make up the experience when you are growing up in the church and hoping that my story lends , um, a voice to others who maybe are searching for someone like them , um, to, to resonate with and find themselves within the pages of my story. Um, and also helping people that are maybe wrestling with theology to become more affirming and see the importance of it , um, and see the importance of the impact that toxic theology is having on the lives of so many people. And hopefully , um, make, make more safe spaces and more, more inclusive spaces because of it. So that's really my goal with the book. Um, and so I would love for, for people to pick up a copy. Um, I also lead an online community called the Unal Unashamed Love Collective that we have where people can join if they're looking for an affirming faith space. Um, or not even, not even a faith space because it's not, it's not a church, it's just, it's a safe space for people coming out of the church , um, that are deconstructing and reconstructing and asking hard questions. And a number of them are and a number of them are allies or parents of children. And it's just a safe space where we , um, we study different topics, we read different books, we interview different authors, and we create kinda this community where people can safely be who they are , um, and, and build safe community and, and feel loved and embraced and included , um, in that space. So I'd love for you to check that out as well. Uh, the Unashamed Love Collective and , uh, yeah, so that's, those are kind of my, my , my passion projects. Unashamed Love Collective came outta the pandemic and , um, we just launched our seventh season, so that's really exciting. And , um, then I'm just, I'm excited to get back on the road with this new book 'cause it's been, you know, several years since the pandemic that I've been able to get out and do events. And I'm excited to see people in person and meet them in person again. It's one of my favorite things. So looking forward to being back on the road and getting to meet people again. So.
Speaker 1:Well Amber, thank you again so much for being with us on the podcast. We'll have a link in the show notes to your book, and as of the time this episode comes out, your book will be hot off the presses so people can , uh, go and check it out as the book , uh, released on October 24th. And we are so excited and we hope it does well. And once again, thank you for being with us today. Thank
Speaker 3:You so much. It's been great to have a conversation with both of you .
Speaker 2:Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of A Matter of Faith . We want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and lead the podcast a review and give us five stars. We love that. If you have any questions for us , send them to Faith podcast@pcusa.org and check out our website, a matter of eight podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.