A Dialogue with The Church of Scotland w/ Sally Foster-Fulton

We had an amazing conversation this week with the moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, Rt Rev. Sally Foster-Fulton, about the importance of relationship, partnership, ecumenism, and interreligious dialogue. 

Special Guest:
Rt Rev. Sally Foster-Fulton, Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland

The Church of Scotland

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith AP Presby podcast. The podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and send us your question because

Speaker 2: 0:16

If it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might be a matter of eight , and you can probably tell that I'm in a different place. It's very echoy in here.

Speaker 1: 0:27

<laugh>, you still sound pretty good to me. But for folks that , uh, obviously the podcast is audio only, but as I look at Lee , uh, Lee is a good user of the virtual background. So in many ways, I cannot tell that Lee is in any bit of a different place than he might otherwise usually be recording from. But,

Speaker 2: 0:48

But I am in, at cabin

Speaker 1: 0:48

View , kind

Speaker 2: 0:49

Of a Yeah. But this is, this is kind of more fitting to where I'm at. 'cause I'm in Roan Oak , Virginia, where there are mountains and it's very pretty. But on the way here , uh, we got into a lot of smoke because there's a wildfire in the Shenandoah Valley, and it was kind of eerie coming here because there was so much smoke. Um, and so yeah, that's, that was interesting. But prayers for people. Yeah , it was, it was very eerie and kind of weird. Yeah , it was a lot of smoke. But , um, I am here recording with my dog , Rupert. He may say some things. He may not, he is laying on my lap and yeah, it's interesting being here.

Speaker 1: 1:34

Yeah. Well, one of the things that really is troubling about trying to navigate through smoke is obviously it's hard to breathe and it's also hard to see.

Speaker 2: 1:45

Yes.

Speaker 1: 1:46

And as we think about things that we don't always know how to see the end of, I'm just gonna call attention again to conflicts and things going on in the news. Obviously the war in the conflict in Israel, Palestine continues. Uh, there's , uh, there's just more and more, for lack of a better word, terrible reports that just come out, it seems. Yeah. And it's just super disheartening.

Speaker 2: 2:13

Yeah, it really is. And it's, I mean, we're, there are no words to even kind of describe it. And the sad part is that a lot of children are being killed. And I think that's kind of like what's sitting with me right now is the, is that is, you know, we can have conversations about the conflict and all this stuff, but, and a lot of us are calling for a ceasefire because so many people are, are being killed. And it's just awful. And, you know, governments are doing what governments do and Yeah. It's just a bad time right now in our world. So, and a lot of things happening because of, you know, know a lot of volcanic eruptions are happening, and like, weird things in Iceland are happening in Ireland, and a lot of things are happening in Congo. Um, and I think, you know, there's just a lot of heaviness in the world right now, leading up until the holidays. Yeah. It's

Speaker 1: 3:17

Just hard to , and then also, yeah . And also with , uh, at least in the United States, we had the , uh, clocks moving as we, oh , sorry. We went on daylight savings, correct,

Speaker 2: 3:31

Yeah. Whatever it is. Yeah's messing people up that

Speaker 1: 3:33

We call it. Yeah. <laugh> , the us we call it going on daylight savings, which means we got an extra hour of sleep one evening, but now it is lighter in the morning, but gets dark very early and that pre creates its own type of transition in the season.

Speaker 2: 3:47

Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, it's just kind of throwing people off and I can't SI can't even get adjusted for it, so I'm always tired. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> these days because it gets dark so quick.

Speaker 1: 4:06

Yeah. I don't like it getting dark so early either, but you know what does bring some light to my dark early evenings, Lee .

Speaker 2: 4:16

Um, I don't know, a South Carolinian becoming the moderator of the Church of Scotland <laugh>.

Speaker 1: 4:23

That's right. You guess it . Everyone, we have the moderator of the Church of Scotland as our guest on this episode, so we hope that you enjoy our conversation with the right Reverend Sally Foster Fulton and our conversation about her experience as the moderator of the Church of Scotland and the importance of the work of the church over there, and also how it relates to our own Presbyterian church here in the United States. So enjoy our conversation with Sally. Well, we are so excited to be joined on this episode of a Matter of Faith a Presby podcast by a very special guest. Joining us is the right Reverend Sally Foster Fulton, who is the moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. Sally, thanks so much for being with us. We love having international guests on the podcast and we are so grateful to be able to welcome you today.

Speaker 3: 5:27

It's an absolute pleasure,

Speaker 2: 5:29

Sally. It is such a blessing to have you on here and Sally and I have a little connection. We're South Carolinians, which is so wonderful to always <laugh> have somebody from , uh, you know, that make me feel at home a little bit of the time on the podcast. So, so welcome again, and

Speaker 3: 5:49

We're excited. Thank you. And , and as I said, when we were, when we were chatting ahead of time, I expected my accent's gonna get thicker and thicker as we talk <laugh> . So apologies to to everybody for that one. Um, or not as the case may be. 'cause it , you , you , you are where you are.

Speaker 2: 6:04

That's very true. Very, very true. But Sally, we, we wanted to invite you onto the podcast 'cause we always have conversations about how do we end this time where the church, you know, there's a probably that international narrative that's a through line of church decline and all of these things. And I know the Church of Scotland has, you know, a similar story to kind of the church in the US where we've seen membership kind of, kind of are falling and what that might mean for the church. And I always think it's a great idea to have a conversation about this with our international partners all over the world about how churches are kind of adapting what it means to partner in this time. Because I think, you know, before we had a conversation before this , we're very reactive now because of this and when we really should have been a lot more prescriptive of how do we build these partnerships without kind of this reactivity to what's happening. But yeah, I think that's a great way to start this conversation of kind of maybe what's happening in the Church of Scotland and then kind of where do you see partnership and collaboration within the work that you were doing, and how might we learn from all of those things here.

Speaker 3: 7:26

Great . Thank, thank you. I mean, I , I'll give you a tiny bit of back . So the Church of Scotland is the national church, and we seek to have a ministry in every parish in Scotland and are there to serve. So we, we are the national Kirk . Having said that, it , um, one of the things that we're seeking to do is, is make sure that we are as ecumenical as we possibly can be. And, and it's about convening a space. So in the last several years, there have been some very serious ecumenical moves , um, in, in Scotland and in the uk. The first is going back to 2016 when the Church of England and the Church of Scotland signed the St . Columbus Declaration, which was a declaration of friendship and partnership and an acknowledgement of our desire to move closer together and to work more intentionally in partnership. So that was back in 2016. And then on the, not just on the strength of that, but I think there was a sea change in, in lots of different spaces. And so we've also signed a declaration with the Catholic Church and in the St . Margaret Declaration, which is an intentional declaration of friendship. Um, and on the strength of that, we, we are meeting more regularly together, we are working more closely together. I will be going to Rome at the end of this month and actually meeting the Pope. Um, and so following on lots of different work, and we also signed a very , um, monumental document for the Scottish Episcopal Church. And again, all these different declarations. But the St . Andrew's Declaration this year at this year's General Assembly, which was also signed , um, at the Scottish Episcopal Church is Senate this year, which empowers us to share , um, communion. So a Church of Scotland minister can take communion in the Scottish Episcopal Church and be that celebrant and the same , um, in the Church of Scotland. And that is a real move towards ecumenical partnership and working very closely together. We also have a similar partnership with the United Reform Church. So it's about being the national church and seeing that as a convening space and making sure that we seed the space and offer it. And in the round , um, there's also a really, and, and I'm incredibly inspired by this, and it's kind of what, what lights my, my fire right now is there's a, there's a lot of potential for ecumenical work. I , I mean, for interfaith work. And e ecumenical actually means the whole inhabited earth. And so at the Honors of Scotland, when the king, the new, the newly crowned king came to Scotland and was presented with the Scottish crown jewels , um, there was a service of Thanksgiving in St . Giles Cathedral, and it was a Church of Scotland service, but there were blessings from different faiths. And so they took part in that service, and it was very much a reflection of what's happening and the diversity in the country, and that that diversity is to be celebrated and is a thing that we should, we should hold up and, and, and cherish, actually. So I think that that's kind of the, the space that we're, we're working in right now . So a lot of potential. Um, there's also, as you, as you quite rightly said, all mainline denominations are facing a similar challenge. Um, the Church of Scotland internally is going through a radical restructure. So across the Church of Scotland , um, used to be 43 presbyteries, and it's a small country. We are moving now to 12 bigger presbyteries, and we're moving the resourcing from the center into those more local spaces. That's, that's not without its challenges, it also means that buildings will be closing , um, and churches will be amalgamating. We don't need all the buildings we have, and it's not a very good witness to our environmental commitments. To have five churches of Scotland, you could throw a rock and hit from one place. So it's about making those difficult decisions , um, so that we can, we can live, we can kind of put our morals where our, our money, where our morals are,

Speaker 1: 11:49

What you just described there at the end is, is a challenge I think that we face here in the United States as well, in the Presbyterian church, USA, this question around maintenance and upkeep and just that it takes a lot of money to keep these buildings, especially as we are experiencing denominational decline and lower shrinking membership. Um, so it's, I don't know if I would say it's reassuring, but it's definitely interesting that that's not, we're not the only ones, if that makes sense.

Speaker 3: 12:19

You , you , you , you certainly aren't. And, and I think it's also an opportunity for us to frame this theologically. You know, we are where we are, and yes, it's declining membership, but there's also another really important reason for addressing this, and we should be addressing it whether we're declining or not. And that's, again, going back to our environmental footprint and, and our commitment to care for creation. And so being able to frame that theologically with people is, is one way of, of approaching it in a way that people can, can kind of feel, feel some ownership of that, of that space. And the same with the same with, you know, uniting, you know, congregations, we are called to that unity of spirit and action. And so whether or not it's, you know, whether we're declining in numbers or not, we should always be looking for ways to, to collaborate , um, across denominations, across faiths and across across the Church of Scotland. Um, so, so I think there, there are ways we can kind of change our narrative a bit.

Speaker 2: 13:25

Yeah. And it's also changing this, I , I see it a lot here. It's kind of, people seem to have this like ownership of churches and there's like this, and we have a conversation all the time about ministers in our church, about, in some ways the congregations have this ownership over kind of things, but it's a reframing of kind of, we're all in this together. And I think that's also, you know, getting, knowing folk from the UK and knowing folk from Scotland and knowing folk from other places other than the us the US is so individualistic and there is kind of a hard, it's a hard thing to crack to kind of say, we are all in this together. And how do we frame, I mean, theologically it does make sense, like we're all in this together, but also what you were talking about with the environmental part of it, and, and I wonder if you could speak a little bit more about that, because that is something we often don't talk about here, is that it's not just we're all in this together and we should have this, this theology around it, but it is an environmental problem that we are spending so much energy on. I mean, here the buildings are so big and you can't even heat them. It's like, it's just so, there's just so much going on. And we, in the Presbyterian church, USA , have a big stance for environmental justice and , uh, calling out and, and dealing with the climate crisis too. And so I wonder how, how y'all are also having those conversations more as it pertains to the environment, because it just doesn't happen a lot here.

Speaker 3: 15:12

Sure. I mean, and it , it's been a journey. Um, and again, different denominations are, are in different places on that journey. I know that the Church of Scotland, one of the big things that was discussed , um, was disinvestment in fossil fuel companies. Um, and that has happened. Um, and, and the door had , I think the door has been, been firmly closed on that, on that space. We also have a commitment to net zero by 2035 or 2030, I'm trying to remember, and I'm having a senior moment, brain freeze. But, but actually trying to get our, our carbon footprint down to net zero and, and, and annually working on that, and the way we frame that is saying we're trying to get our own house in order because the big house is on fire. Um, and we have, we have a a real, we have to do that. Um, one of the benefits of, or one of the things that helps in Scotland is the , the climate targets for the Scottish government are, are well ahead of, of, of other spaces. Um, and so they've got very strong climate justice targets. Um, COP was in Glasgow , um, a few years ago, and on the strength of that, the Scottish government were the first government in the world to commit to a loss and damage fund , um, to pay reparations , um, to smaller, poorer countries who are struggling most with a climate crisis. They had nothing to do with creating. So we have that impetus and push , um, behind us. And so that's something that, that, that's been worked across. I know the scholarship Episcopal Church are having that same conversation. Um, the Society of Friends, the Quakers have long ago , um, disinvested in fossil fuel companies. And it's not the only response you make, but it's, it's one , um, so strong climate targets pressure to, to churches to get their kinda get, get their carbon footprint lowered year on year, moving towards that 20 20, 20 30, 20 35 deadline.

Speaker 1: 17:16

That's so exciting to hear. And especially when we talk about these larger justice issues like, like climate change. I mean, they're so important. We, in the P-C-U-S-A, people often ask us about denomination decline. How do we , how do we get more people in our churches? And something that when we like to say is that, what is your church doing to address these major justice issues in, in our current time that we all face? And I think that some people that's very obvious to say, oh yeah, we do this, this, and this. And for others it's like, oh, well we have a soup kitchen. And it's like, that's great, but that's not the only way to get people involved because what we do really does represent our values and our theology. And if we're not doing something about it that communicates something and people aren't really interested if you're, if we're not doing anything <laugh>

Speaker 3: 18:09

No, you're , you're absolutely right. And it's, it's vitally important that we embody the faith that we, that we profess. So in regards to, to racial justice and climate justice and gender justice, you know, we, we need to be on the forefront of those issues. Um, and, and it, it matters what we do and what we say that makes us relevant and gives our voice accountability and authenticity , um, in, in those spaces. So again, if we are not, if we're not actively working , um, to bring justice , justice for the poorest and most marginalized than , than what are we about? Um, I know one of the other really exciting ECU is , is probably at the end of this year, I go back to my day job, which is head of Christian Aid in Scotland. And Christian Aid is an ecumenical international development charity with 41 sponsoring denominations in the uk all partnering together, kind of pulling together , um, to work on gender, climate and tax. And, and so it's, you know, a really important witness at about what, what, what our big issues are.

Speaker 2: 19:18

And often here when I know when a church might have a big stance on a certain issue, and, and, and here it is so polarized politically, and then it often gets kind of, well, we don't, we don't do politics. We don't do those issues because it's so political. And that's often kind of the excuse that it's because it is polarizing here. Mm-Hmm . And probably more so than it has been in a long, long time. And so there's also this fear of, of that there's like a, a fear of maybe, you know, pastoral, there's always a, there's always a either or I think it's like, oh , if you're going to be so here when it comes to the justice stuff, then this is gonna , then you're not gonna be, or pastoral care is not gonna be there, and all these other things. And, and we often, on this podcast, it was always a both and like, we can hold up all these things. And I know that's hard. It's a lot harder for people to , might , can hold up those things. It doesn't have to be an either or. And so I wonder about like if that experience is similar or is that very different where you are? Is that like these issues that often get so consumed in politics when they're , for us kind of a moral center, a moral grounding in our faith, but it also has been kind of polarized because of politics. And I'm not sure how that kind of is reflected there, but I know a little bit about the government and it, and now in the UK they're having a lot more conversation about other things now, and it's getting a little, it's getting a little polarizing too, so Yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:00

Yeah. Public discourse. I, I think there's a toxicity , um, in public discourse that , that I didn't, I I wasn't as aware of it . It is definitely ratcheted up several, several notches and there is quite a bit of , um, polarization in regards to , um, migration. So there's a , a , an illegal migration act that has come through the government, which has been quite polarizing. So I think the , the big ones here are, are migration, poverty. So, you know, we are , we are really struggling right now. There's a cost of living crisis, it's across the world. But, but you know, here, here, again, it , it, as it bites, you know, what political decisions are we gonna make becomes quite, quite polarizing and how we do that. And I think it's about holding those safe spaces again for people to, to disagree, but in a safe space. Um, I I roll way back during the 2014, here we go. Um, independence referendum in Scotland, church of Scotland, the General Assembly decided to remain impartial as to yes or no, but to be very proactive in empowering people to think, to make, to make those decisions and to discern it so that when they did vote yes or no at that referendum, they, they'd had the opportunity to think deeply and discuss fully and, and have all the, all the information. So we, we ran public meetings called Imagining Scotland's Future, and asked the question to the, to the groups, you know, what kind of Scotland do you wanna live in? Um, regardless of whether we're an independent country or part of the uk. And that, that subtle shift in, in approach offered people an opportunity to, to explore that together. And what we found was people who had very different, you know , who , who voted very differently in, in that referendum, wanted the same things. And then we were able to say, how then can we work now to bring that about in the reality we find ourselves in? So it offered a different space. And I think, you know, we are , we're crying out for that kind of thing , um, where we, we say to people, of course, we're not going to agree on everything, you know , welcome to the human race, but how, how can we disagree and, and not fall out? And how can we disagree and not tear each other apart? I've , I've , I've , I've been, you know, I've , I've heard, you know what , I've got a mentor who said, you know, every time you look in the face of another human being, you're looking into the face of God, what's your response gonna be? Um, and that pulls me up short every day, you know, and , and I, I fear that, you know , when we get so disenfranchised , um, we don't see each other like that anymore or, or it's easy to forget.

Speaker 1: 23:54

That's such a powerful example of community and witness. But also, I would say courage. I feel like in a lot of places, particularly when we're talking about churches or the pulpit, people sometimes wanna shy away from those like bigger controversial things, even though it's really important to talk about and it's what's on everyone's mind. Um, so to hear that the Church of Scotland held a space for people to just talk about what is the Scotland that you want to be a part of that you want to live in, do we stay or do we go? I think that's amazing. And, you know, it hearkens back within the US context reminds me of even the importance of the church and things like the civil rights movement and bringing people together where it was through formal or informal organizing. And I feel like in some ways we've kind of lost that in the states over time, because, at least in the mainline denominations, because it was so easy to just sort of have, I guess, what we might call soft power as a mainline denomination that we simply don't have anymore. So that's really inspiring to know that that's taking place in the Church of Scotland. And I, I would like to think that we could replicate that here in the States that could be really powerful.

Speaker 3: 25:05

Mm-Hmm . Yeah. And, and, and it was, I think it was very, and we had to be really intentional about holding the, we are staying impartial about the outcome of that referendum. Here is your opportunity to discuss what kind of Scotland you want regardless. Um, I do remember being at one of those meetings. So , and you , you had about 60, 70 people in the room and different, at different at tables discussing, and everybody was in a , you know, you could see really getting quite into it. And except for one table and everybody was, was sitting back and just staring at each other. And , um, so I went over to see what was going on and, and <laugh> basically when they'd asked the first question, what kind of, you know, what it moved from? What kind of Scotland do you want to, and, and what do you think we should, what, what are some of the really important things that we can do to bring about that Scotland? And one, one person said, vote yes. And one person said, vote no. And the whole conversation fell to pieces. And so you had to be really careful about saying this, this is about what values do we want to hold? What do we wanna hold onto regardless of the outcome ? So again, it's, it's about those nuanced conversations and respecting the , respecting the space and, and what you're there to do. And it can , it can be risky.

Speaker 2: 26:20

That's what I often think about is like the risk and the vulnerability and how we invite that and call . And also how we like prime that with people is, is I know, you know, there is a culture a lot of the time of like, like being very stoic and like, I mean, it happens in all types of places and cultures that, like vulnerability is often very much seen as a weakness. And people do not want to, to open up and actually talk about what's going on. And I wonder, you know, as we're talking about partnership and we're talking about collaboration, it does take that invitation to be vulnerable. I wonder how you go about that kind of invitation to be open and to be vulnerable because it's even hard here in getting anybody to open up now is is just very, it's just very, very hard. And, and I wonder about that too. How do you kind of prime people to kind of, and and , and gain trust? I think that's also a big part of partnering is how do we trust each other and what that looks like.

Speaker 3: 27:29

Yeah. And, and that, that's a, that's just, that's a global phenomenon. And, and , and you know, we , we , I think we , we we see it, we see it everywhere. Um , yeah, I , I I guess some, a couple of things that have helped in, in, I've, I've seen work in , in spaces where it's, it's quite fraught is, is to kind of, to set that frame from the very beginning and say, this is, you know, we are never gonna find common ground if we, if we spend too much time defending our corner . I remember a wonderful day we had an interfaith and , um, belief conference here, and it, it, it was, it included the Humanist society, the secular society , um, and we brought in a facilitator who was, he was a humanist , um, chaplain from Harvard and basically had everybody in the room. 'cause it was quite touchy, you know, you know the , a lot of differences in that room. Um, quite profound differences in the room. And he , he asked everybody to stand up and he said, I want you to, in your, in your imagination, in your mind, think of all the baggage that you're bringing here with you. And he said, put it down. I said , just can you, can you put it down? It's in your head. And I'm , and you know, you are ev I could feel it. You know, you're thinking, oh, okay. And put it down and let's come clean into this space and really deeply listen to each other and recognize that we're not, that there are so many things we're not going to agree on, but there's so many things that we do agree on already. And why don't we explore, explore those. It , it was a phenomenal experience. So I think that's one thing to do with Christian Aid , approaching things with people from a human right based approach and say, we're gonna ask ourselves a different question here. Not about whether we feel that what they are , you know, that person's lifestyle is right or wrong or, or that person's approach to things is right or wrong. What is their right as a human being? It's a human rights based approach. And, you know, that begins with the right to thrive, the right to equity, the right to opportunities, the right to access. That's a very different conversation if you start with, I don't like what they do, that's gonna be a very different conversation that that's helped us , uh, you know, sometimes in those really fraught discussions.

Speaker 1: 29:53

I'm curious, Sally, since you've spent some time in the states and obviously a good amount of time in Scotland as well as you're talking about the different ways that the Church of Scotland has gone about being intentional in its approach to having these conversations. I'm curious if on a more broader level, what are some of the either similarities or differences that you've noticed between whether it could be sort of just Christianity in the States or depending on, you know, your familiarity with the PCSA. What are some of those similarities and differences that you've observed that, not saying that one is better than the other, but what are some of those differences that you feel , um, in each space? And I feel like that probably enhances your ability to do your, your job as well. 'cause you've seen things done different ways. So I'm just curious , um, if you could , uh, tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker 3: 30:45

Sure. And I'll start with similarities. 'cause they're probably more similarities than, than , than than differences. I, I think similarities were a broad Kirk . Um, so in, in this umbrella of the Church of Scotland, there are a lot of different , um, approaches. Understanding theologies and how do you hold that with integrity together , um, is a challenge. And I know that there have been some very painful discussions at general assembly level, at presbytery level because we, you know, if it's, if it's a really big significant change or decision, it goes down under the Barrier Act that's similar. So it goes to every presbytery to every session. It's a, it's a difficult long, arduous process. I , I think that's, that's similar. Um, and, and how do we hold the grace in the room , um, when we hold such differences? I think those are, those are, are similarities. I, I think one of the differences, and it's a geographical different , Scotland small, so, you know, it's, it's a , it's a smaller space so we know each other well. Um, and, and that, that has a benefit to it, that that's helped with, with our ecumenical relationships. It's helping with our interfaith relationships, the fact that we, we can physically gather together. Um, you know, the, the Scottish Religious Leaders Forum met here in the flat, you know, and there were 20 senior religious leaders from across Scotland, from all different faiths , um, you know, able, able physically to come together. Now that, that's, that's not a small thing. It , it does, it , it makes relationships a bit different. And that's been a help. Um, so I think that's a, that's a difference. And I think, you know, my time in the, in the States, you know, we are a , we're a big machine in the States, and that can be difficult. It can be difficult, you know, when you're, you know, and, and I, you know, I grew up in South Carolina and, you know, I was a , a pastor there for, for a while as well. You know, it , there , there's so many layers to the P-C-U-S-A. It's a big, big, big, big space. It's very, you know, and I think in, in the United States, it's very easy for those, those geographical boundaries to be the boundaries. It's enough to be getting on with, you know, whereas because we're kind of face Europe , um, although we, I won't go into that one, but , um, although we chose to leave , um, the European Union, you know, we still face, we , we still face that way. And it's a, it's more global, global outlook because we're not, because we're small.

Speaker 2: 33:37

Yeah. My, my husband always says, this country's way too big. <laugh>. And , and you do feel it a lot. I mean, the , and the more you travel too , it's like this is, I mean , especially like six countries in one. I mean, there's so much there. And I think that's something we often struggle with, I know in this particular denomination Hmm . Is that, you know, it is very east coast of the country centric. And then there's also a , I mean, there's plenty of Presbyterian churches all over the country, but there is kind of this like, you know, it's closer. I mean, our headquarters is in Louisville, Kentucky. So like, it is hard. It is hard to get together. It's hard to know exactly the kind of what we're dealing with in a way. Because I do think, we think our policies often in this church, if we have a policy for something and we say it is something we automatically think every other church is under it. And every other, every under church is like, we're on board with all everything you say. And that is just not realistic. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And I think oftentimes we're, we aren't in a reality here because of the distance, because it's so hard to know exactly the layout of our church specifically. And that people are on very, very, very different pages. And I , and there are oftentimes where there's not a connection with the national office, and it, it is a size thing. And I don't, I haven't thought about it that much as it compares to the church, but it does make a lot of sense in that, you know, I often think then how can we , uh, how can we take the size of it and also create, you know, how do we like, facilitate that in a way? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> that is a lot more, like you were saying, people can get together and have conversations. 'cause it is hard. And that does make a lot of sense, is that the size often is a hindrance with a lot of things. I think, yeah,

Speaker 3: 35:49

It , it can be a challenge and it can also be a , a really good tool, you know? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> because the , you know, the con the potential for public voice and space and action in the P-C-U-S-A is, is extraordinary. You know? And, and so I think there's, there's also that opportunity , um, to, to to find ways to, you know, find partners with that, that share similar values and issues and, and magnify your voices. And, you know, there, there's an opportunity there as well to, to reach out, you know, whereas here, it, it, of course it is. But, but again, it's, it's a, it's a, you know, a very, very small country.

Speaker 2: 36:28

Yeah. And, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about the interfaith piece and like what have you kind of seen as like a thread through through that? Because we have a lot of interfaith conversations with our own tradition. I mean, we could have a lot more, but I wonder kind of what you've learned through that specifically. I mean, there's a lot of things happening, the stuff in Israel, Palestine, you know, how that has benefited us a lot to have those conversations with a lot of different people of different fates . So I wonder what you've learned through that and that, because that is such a, that is so important now, probably more than ever.

Speaker 3: 37:07

Yeah. And, and I , and I think, you know, looking at, at what the , the horror that is happening in, in Israel and, and the occupied Palestinian territory and in , you know, this , this war between, you know, Gaza and, and Israel is, you know, being able to, to hold that, that peace voice. You know, I , I know when , when, just a few weeks ago, the, the synagogue in GIF held held a , a peace service , um, and invited, you know, so we, we were there. Church of Scotland was represented there. The Scottish Episcopal church was represented there. The first minister of Scotland, who's , who's a Muslim, was the one , was a keynote speaker in that space. So it's about, and and , and you have to be care , you know, you have to be very sensitive. 'cause it , it is, you know, when when things are so volatile, it's very easy for, for, for them to polarize quickly. But I think to hold , to hold that peace and safety for the most vulnerable , um, and keep that, keep that call is , is important. Um, and I think that's in that, that kind of instance, I know, you know, speaking out against, you know, here antisemitism since, since this , um, began, has, has ratcheted up several notches across the uk and being able to reach out to our, our Jewish , um, friends and friends and colleagues and say, how can, can we help? And we're here , um, is important. It , you know , tho those, those just normal signs of friendship, you know, you pick up the phone and call and say, what's, how can we help? You know, tho those kinds of things, looking for areas where we genuinely have one can share the one voice, you know, are there areas of political life, like the level of toxicity and public discourse where all faiths are saying, you know , hang on a minute, this is, this is concerning where we speak out together rather than in our separate we silos, you know, come together in that religious leaders forum and say, are we of one accord? And if we are, can we, can we speak together? Can we stand together? Can we call for something together? I think has a massive impact, much bigger impact than, than, you know , um, an Islamic statement and a Jewish statement and a Christian statement and a , you know, it , it , but to say we as people of faith and belief are calling on the government or are calling on each other or are holding each other to account in this space is a much more powerful thing. Um, and it's about finding those mechanisms, not <laugh> . And I think probably one of the biggest challenges is because we are all, you know, is , is not letting the bureaucracy drown us. And the moment passes, you know, let me go back. I need to, and this is a very Presbyterian thing, I'll need to go back to the committee and then the other committee before I can come back and tell you that and the moment has passed, it's done, it's too late. And, and being able to plan ahead and say, okay, how, what are the, what are the filters? What are the mechanisms? What are the ways that we can speak and speak quickly or act and act quickly when we need to? You know, there's always those spaces where you need discernment and, and time, but when, when things happen and you need to respond, how do you, how do you do that? And if you've already decided you're gonna , we're gonna do that together, then that's where you go first rather than to your own little corners. But if you go first to, to the joint group then, and , and , and you , you have that honest conversation. Is this a time when we speak and act together? Sometimes it's, no, that's okay. But if you don't have the conversation there first, you'll never get there.

Speaker 1: 40:54

I know we've talked about sort of the, one of the issues in the states being the size and scale, which sometimes reduces our ability to be probably a little more nimble and a little quicker on the fly, for lack of a better word , um, than a sm you know, just a smaller g smaller church or geographic area. Um, I'm also wondering if say something, something major happens and the church does need to, to act fast or, or even if it's just a matter of deciding on a policy or a direction for the , for an action for the church to take my understanding of Presbyterian structure , and I promise everyone in our, in our audience, I'm not gonna get too into structure because I know that can get very boring very quickly, but the way that the P-C-U-S-A sort of operates is that we have our general assembly and that's where representatives from churches from all over the country come together. They vote on the things that have been put forth for decision and then they can become policy. And then the denominational entities work on implementing it as moved by the spirit, the general assembly votes, denominational entities implement it , and then it kind of keeps, and then it sort of , it kind of keeps going in that, in that fashion though, there is also opportunities for there to be , um, guidance from sort of denomination as part , the denominational entity as part of implementing it. So in the case of the Church of Scotland, is that exactly the same like word for word or is it a little bit different?

Speaker 3: 42:31

It's very, very similar. Okay . It's very

Speaker 1: 42:33

Just wanna be sure.

Speaker 3: 42:34

Yeah. So the general assembly is, is the body that makes the , those big overarching decisions. And we also have assembly, we also have general tru or trustees, assembly trustees who, who are, who also have quite a bit of , um, of , of space to maneuver. And, and so tho those two kind of are, are held and if, if there are things, you know , the ongoing work of the, you know, there , there can be the , um, you know, the basically the , the council of assembly kind of spaces where, where there people , you know , groups that have been authorized to make decisions in the interim. But, but the big policies are, are definitely , um, general assembly.

Speaker 2: 43:15

Yeah. And that's kind of the, that's like, and and bureaucracy kind of drives me up the walls <laugh> . And, and, and what you were saying about like the, the basic kind of response is automatically going to the collective. And I, I think that's so powerful because it is just a very different orientation about the automatic thought of, well, something terrible has happened. It's a global event. And it's often kind of like, I know here it's often the, the immediate reaction, the ego says, well, we have to put out a statement first. It's almost like a competition. We have to do this first. We have to get out there first. And like you were saying, by the time we figure it all out, it's over. And I don't think that a lot of the times the church has often recognized, you know, how social media, how the media in general, how fast paced these things are now is that if we don't make a statement as quick as we can, you know, my generation and the generations after mine, if that is, if if there is not a quick response, it is often like, what were you doing? Or like, why even say anything now like two weeks later? Like it is often kind of always just kind of, you know, the church is always kind of 10 years behind anyway when it comes to trends, but it's often kinda like, like three weeks behind when it wants to say something. And I think what you were saying about like the automatic, the automatic kind of thought to say we have to go to the collective, we have to go alongside our siblings and, and make something and do it fast. It's just very like, powerful in that it is a reorientation of , uh, I know how we do things is that, you know, we often kind of go into to fear or scarcity when, you know, decline is happening and when we're kind of scared that what we have is gonna be lost and we always go into ourselves and what I hear you saying is, you know, there is an abundance out there and we have to go and find it and partner with it and have that reorientation. And I think that is the exciting thing that's exciting for me to hear is that is the possibility of reorienting ourselves to an abundance of relationships and community and everybody out there like to kind of have a humanist come into a space that I feel like here would be very hard for them to even enter because it is so, you know, like religion here and faith and things like that. But to hearing the openness to to all of that is all , it's just very inspiring to me. And I just had to say that because it is meaningful and a whole different reorientation to kind of how we approach things here.

Speaker 3: 46:32

And, and I'll , I'll be, and I think, I wanna make sure, you know , we are, this is the genesis of this, you know , we are very much on a journey. Yeah . And absolutely, and I think it's, but it's about that we have an opportunity here to do something different, to to approach it differently, to think differently, to respond differently. Um, you know, and is part of that because we find ourselves in a place where faith is, is, is, is not at the center anymore. Of course. That, that's part of it. That is part of it. But, but actually it , it gives us a , an opportunity to, to evaluate and revisit our, our purpose, our faith , um, what, what it's, what it's what it's there to, to be about. Um, and and, and where we share things with, with other people of faith. It , you know, and, and I think, you know, I have never been, and this is a very personal , um, experience. I have never been, had an encounter with someone, you know, a genuine encounter with someone of a different faith or belief and left diminished in my faith. I've always come away from that encounter and, and experience inspired to continue. Um, and, and wider. I think if you're, for me, if I would be worried if my understanding of the gospel narrowed, my mind, hardened my heart, closed my fists, I would think I'm on the wrong path altogether. Um, you know, the , the Jesus I've encountered had broke down every barrier, walked across every bed bridge, built them. Um, you know, that's what we need to be about. So how do we live that out? Um, and, and challenge our own challenge, our own narrative. Sometimes

Speaker 1: 48:29

That's really powerful and speaks to the , the power and the beauty of that, of both community as well as ecumenical work and not, as you said, being limited in our scope and our approach and being open. And I'm so grateful to you for being with us because even though I think that it's easy for us in the states to be like, oh yeah, church in Scotland, they're, they're mostly like us. I'm like, I think there's actually some pretty interesting differences and amazing things that are happening there and we should , uh, we should be partnering and learning more from each other. So thank you so much for being with us on the podcast.

Speaker 3: 49:06

Well, thank you. And it's challenging times all round , but, but challenging times can be, can be quite fruitful times as well. It's amazing what seeds get planted when, when things are, are challenging.

Speaker 2: 49:19

Yeah. We, we, I love this. And, and I also, we wanted to give you a little bit of time before we have to go , uh, just to tell us a little bit about, you know, kind of for one, some, some people might not even know what moderator means, but also like what is exciting that's happening right now for you? Like, what is giving you life and, you know, maybe how maybe we can partner more in this work. What are the little, the little spaces that we could continue to do so? 'cause Simon and I are always about partnering, so we're open for it.

Speaker 3: 49:57

That would be great. I'll tell you one thing that's that's that I am genuinely excited about and this is a potential , um, we wrote, there's been a report that came to this year's general assembly on the legacy of slavery. What did the church, did the Church of Scotland benefit financially when slavery was abolished and people were given compensation? What is the history? Where is it , um, how do we truly repent? Which mean , you know, which means turn around and go in a different way. What do we do differently? Um, and on the strength of that initial report, we are looking at partnering with the United Reform Church, the Scottish Episcopal Church and others to, to look at how we take this forward in Scotland. Um, so will we do things as the Church of Scotland? Absolutely. But, but actually that potential to partner. And one of the things we're looking at doing is going to Jamaica together. Um, 'cause they're doing some incredible work. A former moderator of the Presbyterian churches in Jamaica, Gordon Cowans is he, he is chair of a charity that have identified seven issues that they trace back to the period of enslavement. And they have come up with seven solutions that they're implementing. And it's, it's so, it's such an empowering place to learn. So that's, that's something that, that I'm very excited about again , um, working with people of, of all faiths. Um, I just find extraordinarily life-giving and that that's been, that's been a , a wonderful opportunity. I'll go back to my day job in Christian Aid in a year. So they've given me a sabbatical, which has been incredibly gracious. So I'm able to take on this. The , the moderator in, in for the general assembly of the Church of Scotland is you chair the business of the general assembly and then you're kind of the public face and voice for the year and, and, you know , kind of hold that civic space for, for the year kind of as an ambassador. So, so that, that's kind of what what I'm doing right now. But it's a genuine honor and very unexpected <laugh> and I, yeah, very, very unexpected.

Speaker 2: 52:04

Well, it's been a blessing and also wonderful to talk to a fellow South Carolinian. Uh , it's great to talk to you too and, and where your life has been and is going. Uh, blessings on that. And blessings on all the work that you are doing and all the work the Church of Scotland is doing. And we are so honored to have you on the podcast with us. And yeah, it's been , well , it was my honor. It's been an honor.

Speaker 3: 52:31

It's been lovely. It's been lovely talking with you too , and, and you've given me a lot of thought fodder, so I'm gonna go away to let it percolate. So thank you.

Speaker 2: 52:43

Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Fate . We want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and lead the podcast a review and give us five stars. We love that. If you have any questions for us, send them to Faith podcast@pcusa.org and check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.