Questions for the Week:
Special Guest:
Alonzo Johnson, Coordinator for the Presbyterian Committee on Self Development of People
Guest Question:
Resource Roundup:
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Questions for the Week:
Special Guest:
Alonzo Johnson, Coordinator for the Presbyterian Committee on Self Development of People
Guest Question:
Resource Roundup:
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Hello, and welcome to a matter of faith, a Frisbee podcast, the podcast, where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might be a matter of faith,
Speaker 2:Whether it be faith in God, faith in others, or faith in yourself, we are brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and Unbound, the interactive journal on Christian social justice for the Presbyterian church USA. I am your host Lee Cato,
Speaker 1:And I'm your host Simon dune
Speaker 2:Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions. So our first question for today is kind of a, kind of a good one. It's it's not really so serious, but it is kind of serious. That's a good one to start with. Uh, what is your favorite part about church or worship? So Simon, what is your favorite part about church or worship?
Speaker 1:I really love this question because there are so many parts of church that I personally very, really appreciate. Uh, one of my favorite parts of church in worship is obviously the community aspect, particularly the community through singing and music and praise. I just find that it really lifts my spirit and it also gives a, uh, you know, a communal sense of being one in the spirit that you don't find in a lot of other settings or contexts. And there's just something about getting up and going to church every Sunday and knowing that you are going to experience that every time with the people around you. My other favorite part of church and worship is actually the prayer of confession. And the reason for that is in the prayer of confession, we recognize that we are not perfect. We recognize that you know, that we have sin, that we've messed up and that we are asking for forgiveness. And there's something really humbling about that, especially when you're doing that with all of these other people around you at the same time. And on top of that, the fact that forgiveness can and will be granted is really powerful. And I know that not every church or congregation or denomination has a strict prayer of confession time and some don't have an habit at all, which is fine, but there have been times where I've attended a church service and there was no prayer of confession. Uh, it was mostly just worship and a sermon. And for me, I walked out of that service thinking, we didn't do the prayer of confession. Did I really go to church today? And again, there's nothing wrong with not having it, but for me, it's something that I think is particularly important. And it reminds every Sunday to one keep track of myself to have that personal accountability. And then also to be thankful both of the things that I've been given and blessed with, and also for the forgiveness that I've been shown. So that's a little bit about some of my favorite parts of worship. What about, what about you, Lee? What are your favorite parts?
Speaker 2:I really echo the community aspect and I think another part of worship and church that really speaks to that is the sacraments. You know, we celebrate baptism and the Lord's supper, and it really does speak to the communal aspect of what faith can be. I always love the part where after a baptism and as Presbyterians, we, we baptized any, I mean at any age, but we only baptized once. That's something that we believe, but we baptize babies and kids. And one of my favorite parts is when, you know, the minister will pick up the child or carry the baby around and introduce the child to the congregation that this child is as a part of this community. And we are as the community responsible walk with this person throughout their, their faith journey. And I think that's very powerful. I think that's very meaningful and also gravitate towards the part of the Lord's supper, where we really state that, that this is not a Presbyterian table. This is not this church specific church's table, but this is God's table. And this is a space where all are welcome, which was not always the case. And it's still not always the case in many traditions, but I'm very grateful that in our tradition most are welcome. Almost all are welcome to the table to, to partake and be a part of this community. And to remember while we're, while we do the things that we do. So for that reason, yeah, echoing the communal aspect of, of what worship can be. And I think we we're missing that right now, a lot in this time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that kind of leads back to some of, some of the questions we've talked about in previous episodes related to how we, how we conduct worship and church often now in more virtual settings and maintaining that sense of community. And that sense of welcome when you may not even be able to see the other people who are attending church with you, um, because it's a recorded service, or if it's on zoom, you're able to see them as a, a little square on your screen, but that doesn't necessarily always have the same feeling, trying to figure out how to still share in that sense of community. And that sense of welcome is, is challenging. For sure. It's hard it's to do that virtually.
Speaker 2:And one more thing about, about worship, and you said this was your favorite part. I also loved the music and I never grew up listening, listening to a lot of hams that traditional Presbyterians would be singing. And so that was kind of new for me. When I went to college, we always sang old, pretty much Baptist, um, old Southern hams that we would saying, but there's just something about, again, that Camino aspect of, of everybody's voice saying the same words and some Presbyterian churches are great at harmonies. And that's very beautiful to hear. So, yeah, I just wanted to mention that too. I am a singer and that's always been something that, that I've really loved about church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting. You brought up not listening to a lot of hymns that Presbyterians would traditionally listened to. I grew up, I was raised Presbyterian and I do like hymns, but I think that it, it kind of took many years for him to grow on me if that makes sense, because they are simple, but they are also very powerful and beautiful in their simplicity, which also makes them more accessible for people to be able to participate. And I've come to appreciate that a lot more as I've gotten older and also as a musician myself, knowing that I can pick up a ham and it likely will not be very complicated loans itself. Well, to being able to be used multiple times and used, uh, each and every Sunday morning. So shout out to him.
Speaker 2:I mean, I, him, it's not like the first thing I'll go to. I, I really do like the trend and some worshiping spaces that sometimes use secular music, I think can also be very powerful. That's not necessarily religious, sacred music. I think there is something to incorporating, you know, every day life or everyday experiences within worship through song. That can be also be very powerful. So I really appreciate that when that happens. And, and I've also seen just a, a change in how hymns are written, what the focus is, the inclusivity of a lot of hymns, because as we are learning, there are some things within sacred music that is pretty problematic theologically and socially. And so there is a movement to, to change that up. So I guess, I guess all in all, I like the creativity that worship can bring though. We're so Presbyterians are so ordered and the way that we do worship, but also allowing for some creativity, I guess that's, that's what I would like to see in the future is how do we, you break that in some way and be a little more creative,
Speaker 1:Structured creativity, right?
Speaker 2:We are known for ordered orderliness. And I do think that does sometimes take away from letting the spirit move sometimes within.
Speaker 1:So Lee, our next question is how do I talk about being a Christian? What are things to keep in mind when explaining and describing my faith? What do you think Lee?
Speaker 2:That's a hard one. It's hard to, yeah. It's and it shouldn't be hard. That's the thing it's talking about being a Christian has so many things wrapped around in it. And you talk about evangelism. You talk about with that. He had to talk about colonial as, um, it has become a hard thing to navigate specifically. And I would even say spiffy in like more progressive mainline churches is sometimes we shy away from talking about, you know, our, how we claim our Christian faith, because it has been very damaging in the past. It has been very damaging to different cultures and different places in the world. But I do think it is if you, if you are a person who claims to be Christian, it is, and it is authentic. And your authenticity to really claim that and talk about it in some ways and progressive circles. I remember, uh, so I went to Vanderbilt divinity school and I remember being in an ethics class. And our professor was just like, y'all, don't like talking about Jesus that much. It was, it's a very progressive, uh, divinity school. And many times, you know, talking about justice and social issues, it was interesting to come from a professor to say like, y'all, don't really talk about Jesus. When you start talking about God and Jesus, you start, you start feeling what you're start getting, like, uh, you start pulling back and not really wanting to talk about that. So I think in all cases it is, it is something that is really hard to navigate, but I think starting with authenticity and actually being, even being comfortable saying, you're, you're a Christian and he followed Christ. That is important, but also thinking about what that means and like in the back of your mind, how you can be authentic and really holding that history accountable, but also living into it is something I think is, yeah,
Speaker 1:I appreciate that. You mentioned the sort of conundrum that I think particularly progressive Christian communities find themselves in to. It becomes very easy to focus only on action and the need for justice. And then forget to connect that call back to scripture and to a biblical foundation and to talk Jesus and God, because it's an attempt to not sound too evangelical, but you can talk about those things without needing to use tons of quotes or to sound very preachy. So it is, it is possible to do. It's just a, it's a delicate balance to walk. I think if someone is, is, wants to think about how to talk about their faith and being a Christian, there's a couple of things that they should be thinking about in terms of the context when they're talking about it. Well, first of all, are you responding to a question that someone asked, did someone ask you, are you a Christian that's one context, or are you talking about your faith with more of an evangelical lens to try to convert someone or bring them into the church or convince them that your faith is valuable? And they may have something, there may be something there for them to learn from that for myself, I don't usually approach it with the evangelical lens. I usually talk about my faith to inform them about what my faith means to me and how it has informed the way that I see the world, the way that I navigate that I navigate it and the way that I treat others. And if they agree with that and are interested, you know, we can talk more about that. That's sort of, it's about establishing genuine connection about why your faith matters. And additionally, don't be afraid to talk about your own face story and your faith journey. Lee. I love that you mentioned that people have very complicated histories with church and with organized religion. And I think it helps to bring about a more authentic answer. If you can talk, if we can talk about how did you become a Christian, how did you get where you are? Why does your faith matter to you? Because if you are willing to share a little bit about your story and your journey, the more honest and genuine and really humanizing elements of your relationship to faith will come out of that. Finally, I would say that people should, should not be afraid to talk about who our faith calls us to be. How does faith compel us to be a better person and to take action in our world. And again, that can be done without sounding preachy, but while also connecting back to scripture and connecting back to, to Jesus and to God. But it certainly is a, a complicated question to try to unpack.
Speaker 2:And often in our tradition, we often we get really heady and Syrah. Typically, uh, Presbyterians are seen as, you know, like very educated. We have to have, you know, a masters of divinity to be ordained and this denomination, and that's something we can talk about in a later podcast, but, uh, episode. But I do think that that tends to, we tend to go to the head a lot when we're trying to explain, explain what it means to follow Christ. And a lot of that is not heady. A lot of that is speaking from the heart and, and speaking from this like, uh, uh, sole way of, of describing what it means to be a follower of Jesus. And a lot of the times a specific this, I see this in a lot of white churches, a lot of the times it is very heady. Like there, isn't a lot of conversations about, about our spirituality and what that means, and not regards of conversion, converting other people, not in regards of how do we save souls because we believe that that that is done, you know, in our theology, but we, but we don't often talk about spiritual work and, and how it really does connect to, to the work that we see that we should be doing within our actions. And so it's all up in the head a lot of the times, like you're trying to think through things and oftentimes that shouldn't, that that shouldn't necessarily be the case it's, we're talking about within our souls, within our, like that feeling that you get from no other source of no other way of explaining it. What does that mean? And where is that coming from and how does that push you? And if you're a Christian and you're following in the steps of Christ who was incarnate God with us, that is, that is something that is very powerful and to think about and to really reflect on spiritually what that means and talking it out with yourself and with others, that's a part of the journey too. You're never going to pinpoint what it really means to be a Christian because it's ever evolving. And there's always going to be something new to try to explore and to figure out. And so I do think that openness there to, to try to balance the spiritual and the educational and intellectual, if that's what we want to call it,
Speaker 1:Especially as Presbyterians, we believe that that we're not perfect. We don't believe in perfection. And I think that's something really interesting and important to keep in mind when we talk about being a Christian, because there is no perfect faith journey. I would almost go so far as to say that there is no arrival at an end destination either. There is the journey. There is the learning, there is development, there is questions. And that all of that is part of what it means to be a Christian as well. If we ever think that, Oh, we need to provide a perfect answer to someone, or we need to tell them what it looks like when we've arrived at being a Christian that may not be authentic Christianity because everyone's got their own faith journey to navigate.
Speaker 2:And I also think it's all, yeah, figuring out who you are as a person, because that will affect how you are as any person of faith really is how do you bring who God created you to be into your, into the way that in which you, you experienced your faith and you express your faith and what you do. And for me, and my own personal story, those two walked hand in hand of accepting yourself, which then really does walk with how you experienced your faith and how you express it.
Speaker 3:Welcome
Speaker 2:To our guests that will be answering a question that our audience has sent us. We are welcoming Alonzo Johnson, who is the coordinator for the Presbyterian committee on self-development of people. And it's also the convener for the educated child transformed the world initiative, which is both a house and the compassion, peace and justice ministry area, and the Presbyterian church USA, uh, Reverend Johnson has 25 years of experience and urban congregational based organizing youth and education, creative arts, peacemaking antiviolence and social justice ministries. Reverend Jocelyn was pastor at urban congregation and Presbytery in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania for almost 12 years, and has worked as a volunteer chaplain and prison ministry for nine years. So Alonzo is actually here with us. So welcome to our podcast, Alonzo, uh, so great for you to be
Speaker 4:Thank you, Lee and Simon, I'm honored to be here and be with you and share this time. Thank you for what you all are doing and have been doing in and for the church, definitely appreciative for both of you and thankful for the work that you both are doing
Speaker 2:With that. We'll dive into our question. So the question is the local churches in my community do a lot to address issues of poverty and our homeless shelters, food pantries, soup kitchens, and clothing drives. But I feel like we aren't addressing root causes of why people need these services in the first place. How do we move from providing temporary relief to addressing root causes of poverty? What more can we do?
Speaker 4:That's a, that's a great and challenging question because what they're doing is incredible. I mean, those are the things that God calls us to do, right? We're called by Christ to take care of those. But at the same time, I think that question gets at the heart of this work of, you know, what can we do? And I think that the idea of the root causes of poverty, first thing we have to do is we've done learn about them. What are these root causes? How do we create awareness education about the root causes of poverty, right? I mean, and I think that this is an important cause poverty, poverty eradication is who we are as Christians, right? This is our, the church's vocation. And, you know, I think both about Luke four 18, and also Matthew 25, you know, this idea of, you know, in lieu bringing good news to the poor, you know, what kind of good news is God setting captives free, which all point to them against, um, recovery and renewal, Matthew 25 talks about, uh, feeding folk, visiting folks in prison, all these kinds of things. So what more can we do one to become aware? And that is book studies, right? If we want to know more about the root causes of poverty, we're going to need to be engaging in some studies questions we love, we love learning, right? And I think that this warrants a further read and further analysis of some of the issues that they are, that folks at churches are dealing with as far as poverty is concerned, the ways that people are engaged in poverty eradication automatically points to what do we need to know about how people are affected and how people are impacted. And I think that that's really important and the root causes is basically learning about them. There are all kinds of ways we can do that. Right. I think one of the things that we're really good at, especially Katrina is we like giving books and titles and I definitely will give some books and titles, right? There's the problem with wealth, for example, from Elizabeth Henson, hasty is an incredible book that analyzes theologically poverty and in our understanding of poverty and also looking at wealth, and then also always with us from Reverend Dr. Lucio Harris, who's part of the poor people's campaign. And she also has a great website because the Kairos center and they have all kinds of Bible studies and things. But I think that's really important to learn about these issues, because I think it's one of these things where folks are doing the work, but, you know, it's paternalism if we're not looking at why people are hurting. And a lot of that, that awareness and the relationship forming pieces are really important. How are we forming relationships with the communities that we are working with? And I'm going to be very intentional about that language and not do we for right. But the working with being intentional about collaborative, relational Lang, who's it, you know, who's in our neighborhood, that's part of that awareness is listening and being attentive, but kind of a thick listening if you will, the theologian Paul Tillich. I like to quote him to say the first, the first act of love is listening, right. And listening to what people are facing hearing from our, you know, our communities. And this has been really golden for self-development of people. I mean, this has been how we were able to learn more about the root causes issues that communities face and that's listening. And I think a lot of it too, is, uh, communities being able to understand that, that they have issues that are going to be contextual, right. You know, many of our communities are not going to face the gamut poverty issues, but they will face quite an intersection, right. As they connect with race, as they connect with education, you know, all these kinds of things. And so that learning piece that listening and learning is really important. That's the, that's how you take that a step, having those conversations and who do we have those conversations with? Also talking to community leaders, there was a church that had given a particular amount of money every year to various organizations that were engaged in urban, urban work. And they, weren't not ministries per se, but a lot like SCOP, they were communities that the church was partnering with to address issues of poverty. And one of the things that was really important for them was that, you know, Hey, we need to listen to these folks. You know, we need to invite them to, to our church to have conversations about the issues and about what's going on. We need to invite our leaders that are working on these issues. Uh, one of the things that we, we become very aware of is that Presbyterians, we don't know everything. So that's, that's, you know, that's one thing is, is getting aware, becoming aware and becoming and fostering, aware, very important aspects of this work, the root cause issues are going to be issues connected to employment, racism, education, you know, a[inaudible] of different issues that impact our communities. And so I think that awareness piece is really important. One of the things that I like to lift up as well is in generating awareness, how does the national church play a role in this? And I think it's important to lay this out, especially as being part of one of the one, great, our shame family. We're a treasure trove of information and not just information and not cause, you know, we love to dump resources on folks, which I think is important, but at the same time, our ministries with our sharing peacemaking MRT ministries in the rum, I think of Unbound and what no, and leave what you would definitely do with Unbound. We make relationships in the national church with communities and churches who are doing this work. And so one of the things that's really powerful about having that connection to the larger churches that we know communities that we can connect you with. I had a handful of folks that said, look, we are really concerned about gentrification. We've been talking about doing something about it. We've been researching the issue. We recognize there's some root cause issues that connect to inequity and poverty and blight, but we really just don't know how to make all this happen. And we really don't have the resources to get all the kind of legal minds involved. And I was able to connect them with two organizations that self-development, that people have funded that have done this work and that constantly doing this work. Right. So I think that that's really important, you know, how do we make those connections to actual communities we're doing this? And so, yeah, we have an amalgam of different communities that we are connected to. And I think that that's, that those are help us with the learn more about those root cause issues. I think it's really appropriate to talk to those communities who address them. We can be a great resource in that way and connecting folks to some of these organizations. And then also of course, there's the issue of advocacy we're doing the direct action piece is powerful, but the advocacy piece must follow. And when we think about the work of Jesus and the, and the work of the identity of be Jesus people, you know, who who's, uh, you know, fighting for the poor, who has a preferential option for those who struggle and suffer, it's important for us to understand that we have, we have voice. And one of the things that I think is really powerful is that the voice we have through the office of public witness, press train office, a public witness in DC through, uh, Reverend Jimmy Hawkins. And one of the things between that and the poor people's campaign, one of the things that has been really incredibly helpful is action alerts, right? We get action alerts about things that are happening, which helps us advocate for better public policy, right? Some that support job creation, greater empowerment of work, right? Family life balance, strengthening families further than young people addressing education, you know, learning more about stronger social safety nets and snap programs and these kinds, you know, in these particular types of things. And I think that these are really important in addition to the actual, I think advocacy has to go hand in hand with direct action. And I think that that's more of a complete way of doing poverty eradication.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, Alonzo. That was great. We're going to transition to our resource Roundup section now and, uh, ask Alonzo what resources he recommends for Presbyterians to check out regarding addressing poverty. Alonzo, what do you think there's
Speaker 4:Books that I think are really incredibly powerful? Well, actually two books and a PCUSA policy. The PCUSA policy is one from a three 2012 and the PCUSA policy that I lift up, I lifted up often because it is a way that we are able to really kind of put theological language to this world of hurt will of life, which is 220th general assembly renewing God's communion. And I've mentioned this policy in addition to the book, toxic charity from Robert Lockton, as ways for people to really start to put theological language around things like paternalism. And if we're going to do advocacy, we've got to understand the ways that, you know, we hurt people, even, even if our intentions are good, we have to understand what creates poverty. This is not about imperfection of people as it is, you know, the kinds of laws and policies that are in place earlier. I mentioned, you know, fighting for 15, you know, uh, what is it living wage? Can people, uh, unionize, uh, can people advocate for, for their own rights? And we think about children and education. You know, how many of us are as church folks? How many of us are going into a now, right now, of course, we're not doing anything physical until this is over, you know, this pandemic, but how many of us are going into our schools and joining the PTA and saying, we want better schools. We want improvements in the education program for our young people. And these are the kinds of things that can be done. So I think that those action alert items being connected to the advocacy arm of the Presbyterian church, I think is really important. And I think that gives us more, more power. And, uh, and also one of the things I think is really powerful about this Matthew 20 initiative as, as churches connect to, and as presbyteries connect to it, I think we all create a network of, of people that are doing this work. One of the things that's been really powerful for us at SCOP is when we were, when we were able to get our, our national committee and, and our local committee leaders together to talk about the kind of work that they're doing. And one thing that does is create, uh, all kinds of networking. Like, Hey, we may find one local committee in one state saying, Hey, we want to know more about how to do X, Y, and Z. And another local committee will say, Hey, we've done that. And it's that networking. I think in Matthew 25, that's going to be really important. Uh, especially as aspects of congregational vitality, how do we network talk to each other about, you know, what's going on, have these conversations, Hey, we want to do a Bible study in this, and we don't know where to turn. Can someone help? Hey, you know, this churches we're doing this. So how do we, as the church, as the body of Christ as we use that theological bank, how do we become a body of fries to one another? How do we become our own communion table and feed one another with the kinds of things that we need to do to do this work together. And I think it's important that churches and not just, you know, in churches and ministries, you know, and programs within ministries, we get to understand how we can help each other in. So I think it's banding also the kinds of resources, right? The community resources, uh, in addition to, uh, print resource. And so those are the kinds of things I think are really important. How do we create those networks and to be in conversation with, with folks we're doing this work. And, uh, and even in conversation with folks who are also struggling about how to do this work, I mean, I don't think there was anything in scripture that ever said that this was going to be a one and done easy work. Uh, Jesus talks about clothing, the naked, and we know that there's some systemic aspects of what that points to as a person who worked in the prison, you cannot work with, with those will returning to society and not address the larger issues of mass incarceration, poverty race, and the prison system you can't. And I think it's really important for folks to understand that these are all connected. I think people should also not be so concerned about what they don't know or don't have. And I think that people, we have more than we think, and sometimes that might prevent people from wanting to do this work well, we have more than we think we do. We have space. We have, if we have zoom, we, you know, if we have, we can communicate with one another. And, and, and I'm not saying this to sound simple, I'm saying this because this is what we've learned from SGLP when you make those relationships with people, you get to understand more about the issues that people are facing. And just like a real quick example of the Dameon organization in New York city, a Filipino workers who were labor traffic in the United States were able to get free of that and able to help others get free of this. And they are, you know, a powerhouse of information about, uh, labor
Speaker 1:Traffic, just being connected to them. I mean, they organize and they advocate and make it, it may help us understand the issues that are really important. Uh, and I think that these are the kinds of relationships that we needed to build. Absolutely. Alonzo, thanks so much for your great ongoing work with the Presbyterian committee on the self-development of people. Um, we'll make sure to put links to all the resources and books and organizations that you mentioned in the show notes. So people can learn more, but thanks again for a really thorough response and heartfelt response about the root causes of poverty and how we can address them as Presbyterians and people of faith.
Speaker 5:This has been the matter of fate podcast brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and Unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so@eightpodcastsatpeaceusa.org, we look forward to hearing from you, see you next time. Thanks everyone. See you next time. Thanks everyone for listening to episode five of a matter of fate, a Presley podcast, don't forget to subscribe at your favorite podcast platform of choice
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