A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

Episode 9: Bible Talk, ChurchFlix & The Ordination Process

April 29, 2021 Simon Doong and Lee Catoe Season 1 Episode 9
A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Episode 9: Bible Talk, ChurchFlix & The Ordination Process
A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Episode 9: Bible Talk, ChurchFlix & The Ordination Process
Apr 29, 2021 Season 1 Episode 9
Simon Doong and Lee Catoe

Questions of the Week: 

  • What are your favorite Bible verses/stories?
  • Do you ever think people treat their relationship with God like a subscription service? Hear me out: you're always subscribed, there is a regular payment (tithing or going to church), but you only really use it to its full benefit when you really want to, and otherwise it just sits there. It's not a perfect metaphor, but I feel like there are some comparisons to be made. Thoughts?

Special Guest:
Brooke Scott, ready to receive a call in the Presbyterian Church USA

Thanks to our other contributors. 

Guest Question:
What is the PC(USA) ordination process like?

Resource Roundup:
International Peacemakers | [email protected]
Ordination Process Information

Show Notes Transcript

Questions of the Week: 

  • What are your favorite Bible verses/stories?
  • Do you ever think people treat their relationship with God like a subscription service? Hear me out: you're always subscribed, there is a regular payment (tithing or going to church), but you only really use it to its full benefit when you really want to, and otherwise it just sits there. It's not a perfect metaphor, but I feel like there are some comparisons to be made. Thoughts?

Special Guest:
Brooke Scott, ready to receive a call in the Presbyterian Church USA

Thanks to our other contributors. 

Guest Question:
What is the PC(USA) ordination process like?

Resource Roundup:
International Peacemakers | [email protected]
Ordination Process Information

00:03 – Simon Doong

Hello, and welcome to a matter of faith a presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question. Because if it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might be a matter of faith,


00:21 – Lee Catoe

Whether it be faith in God, faith and others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unfound, the interactive journal on Christian social justice for the Presbyterian Church USA. I am your host, Lee Cato,


00:39 – Simon Doong

And I'm your host Simon Doong.


00:41 – Lee Catoe

Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions. 


00:44 – Simon Doong

All right, well, here we are. Lee, how are you doing? 


00:48 - Lee Catoe

I'm doing all right, Simon. We have been through a little coldsnap lately, which is kind of weird for April, even people got snow, which was bizarre.


00:57 – Simon Doong

Yeah, it's, uh, it's in the 60s where I am. So it's lovely. Yeah. So no snow here. But knock on wood. Now that I said that it's probably going to snow.


01:07 – Lee Catoe

Yeah. Yeah. He did that to yourself. But I'm good. I'm good. I hope you're doing well.


01:12 – Simon Doong

Yeah, I'm doing all right. And you know, Lee, something that I really liked talking about on this podcast is scripture, and the Bible, the Bible. And our first question for today happens to talk about just that. So the first question reads, “What are your favorite Bible verses slash stories? Lee, I know you have to have a favorite Bible passage. What is it?”


01:37 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, this is this is a nice question to get me to think about it a little more. I used to preach a lot, and churches down here in Tennessee. And so I would read the lectionary all the time, and still do a little bit. But I remember the first time I ever read Mark 20. So my favorite book, and the New Testament is the Gospel of Mark, I love mark, because it's quick to the point. It is a book about kind of, you know, like the forces of good and evil, like it has a lot of like, like unsplit, unclean spirits and all that kind of thing. So it is very, just very interesting New Testament gospel. And I love the story in March 20, about the garrison demoniac. And it's really been a scripture have been a story that has kind of followed me throughout my time in ministry, and because the story really is about someone who is isolated from their community, and Jesus kind of calls out what is disconnecting this person from being themselves and being connected to community. And so he calls it out and names it and sends it out. And so I think that's just a very powerful message as a person of faith. And then also, I really like the story and numbers, there's a story in numbers about the people in the wilderness, there's traveling through the wilderness and numbers gets really overlooked. But they're traveling in the wilderness and the snakes come and, and they're complaining about the food, they're tired of eating, you know, just bland stuff. And then all of a sudden, these snakes come and started biting them, and some of them started dying. And God told Moses to build a bronze serpent, that if they looked into it, they would live and so for me, that is a message of how do we look at the systems and the things that take lives? And and how do we look at those deeply and really dismantle them and use what we kind of fear the most, and to stare that down and look at it in order to to live into a life that is making sure everybody is living abundantly? So yeah, those are some of my favorite go to stories about always kind of gravitate towards if I need a little inspiration, or some sort of pick me up. What about you, Simon?


04:18 – Simon Doong

You know, I actually kind of struggle with this a little bit because there's so many that come to mind. And one that readily comes to mind is the story of Moses and the burning bush. And the reason that I really like that story is because Moses's sort of initial reaction is well one, a very normal response of this bush is on fire, but it's not burning. And it's talking to me. And it's also a bit of skepticism about there's no way that God could it be talking to me right now. I'm not worthy of this. And there's this doubt about sort of his own, just value and being able to be able to Sit in that presence of God. And something that I really like about that is because I think we often encounter burning bush moments in our own lives, and then we discount them because we discount ourselves, or we don't think that we're worthy of having a relationship with God, or we're not worthy of being able to be called to action or being called to do something, we think, oh, it must be someone else, you must you must have me mistaken for someone else, you must be looking for someone else. And in that story, God says, No, I'm looking for you. And you're gonna do this. And so I like to look to that story as a reminder that doubt is normal. But that also that we should not discount ourselves, and what we can bring to the table what we can bring to the church and to other people in our lives. And I just, I really appreciate that story.


05:47 – Lee Catoe

The Bible in general is such a, it's just such an interesting book that needs to be explored more and more. And we'll talk a little bit about this. And in the next question, or two, about in the Presbyterian tradition, we're all about learning languages within the ordination process. And one of the reasons is many, I mean, these, this scripture was written in Hebrew and in Greek to understand the nuances of the language, and things of that nature. And and we'll get into the kind of the good and the bad of that. But at the same time, it is such a dynamic book that I hope people will explore more than just kind of taking it word for word, but really delving into and looking at those Greek words and Hebrew words that don't have definite definitions and what the context is of them. So so I like this question. And I would love to know like, what are other people's favorite verses and stories? So if you're out there, just share that with us.


06:54 – Simon Doong

I'm really curious how many people will say john 316. Not because John's views 16 is not a great verse. But it's interesting how often that one seems to come up as a, you know, a quotable, easily, easily referenced bit of Scripture “for God's love the world that He gave His one and only Son.”


07:11 – Lee Catoe

Now, that’s the one we always memorize in Bible School. Alright, Simon, I think it's time for us to move on to the next question. “Do you ever think people treat their relationship with God like a subscription service? And they say, hear them out. So hear them out. You're always subscribed. There is a regular payment, tithing or going to church, but you only really use it to its full benefit when you really want to, and otherwise it just sits there. It's not a perfect metaphor, but I feel like there are some comparisons to be made. Thoughts?” What are your thoughts, Simon?


07:55 – Simon Doong

Well, I think this could be a sermon topic right here if people need sermon material. But in all seriousness, I do think that there is maybe some comparison to be made. I think some people will disagree upfront, because this comparison would imply that faith in one's relationship with God is transactional. But I do appreciate the comparison as a thought exercise. And some of the things that I appreciate about it, about this comparison is that I think it's very easy to treat faith like like a subscription service, one that's that is there, but you only use it when you really want to you only lean into it when it's really convenient or valuable to you. And if you treat your faith, like a subscription service, then that also implies that it never really asks anything of you more than whatever that subscription fee is. And we I think we would all say that, that deep faith is you giving to your relationship with God and to the people around you, but also allowing your faith to ask questions and ask something of you. And so in that sense, this comparison doesn't exactly work. But it does get me thinking about faith and relationship in those terms. And I really appreciate that. Somebody else that I think is interesting is that this comparison implies that the value you get out of your relationship with God and in your faith is something that is quantifiable, and I'm not sure that it is but different people may have different ideas about how to measure the value of faith and relationship. What do you think Lee?


09:37 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, this is a question that, yeah, just thinking about, you know, our relationship with God and for me for years, it was how much can I give? Like, how much can I pay? There are so many subscription services now, by the way, like take your pick, it is just like there are so many now and just pay him, yeah, and just choose what you want to be involved in and that kind of thing. But I also think it is a conversation about like, and for years, I thought, like, how much can I give to God to get something in return, to get to get God's love back to me. And when I reoriented myself to say like, this relationship with God is not transactional. It is, it is unconditional. So whether or not whatever you do, there's going to be love there, there's going to be grace that is already there. In that relationship with God, but but in that relationship, there is something to say like, how am I in relationship with God that both gives glory to God and glory to other people, without a selfish gain without some sort of weird motivation there. And so that is hard. I think in today's time, where everything is so transactional, and so easy, like you mean, you have your phone, and there's instant, like gratification, there's just instant ways of getting things. It's just so like, it's just so transactional. So yeah, I wonder about that. Like, we rethink the offering plate rethink, like things that kind of, if I give this, like if i subscribe, like we would all love for you to subscribe to this podcast, speaking go some subscriptions, subscriptions. But if if we rethink how our relationship is, it's like, what does it mean to live into an unconditional relationship? That is for the benefit of everybody what that might look like and how church can change and that way, just because there is harm of how much can I give to God so I can get that love back. And I see that in a lot of queer narratives. You see that in a lot of ideologies and theologies that you need to give, give give to God, but in our faith, no matter what you give to God, that grace is always there, and that grace was there. And that's not the point. So yeah, this this, this question made me think a lot.


12:22 – Simon Doong

Yeah. And I think that maybe this question comes up, particularly now when a lot of worship is done virtually. So the way that you access your church, your community, and your worship service is the same as the way you access your Netflix, pull it up on your phone, pull it up in your laptop, your computer, click a link, here we go. Alright, it's over. Okay, on to the next episode on to the next thing until next time. That's not that's not me saying virtual worship is bad, I still think virtual worship has a very important place in the wider scope of how churches done. But in the current time period, and the circumstances people are in, I think that, that, that feeling that the way you are relating to church into your faith could feel the same way or similarly to how you use a subscription service. And the other thing that sort of you were saying Lee is it was about convenience, it's so easy to get things on subscription services. And the thing about faith is that it's not always easy. It's not always accessible. And sometimes that's really frustrating. But as long as there's also a lot of growth, and a lot of beauty, and opportunity to live into that. And so whether you're that, and that's something that you can do that you can't do with an actual subscription service, because the subscription service is what it is, it's giving you content, it's giving you your delivery, you know, whatever it is, but faith gives you an opportunity for growth in ways that that are really bigger than that.


13:56 – Lee Catoe

And there's like a there's also like a capitalistic view here too. And I said before, like there's so many subscription services, like if you got the money, you can get all that like if you got the money. And and you think that is how we are to be in relationship with God that you just throw money at it, to get some sort of power to get some sort of acknowledgment, to get your name on a building to get your name on a Pew to and not saying that, like that's a bad thing. You want to remember people how you want to remember them. But there's also a conversation there about what is the motivation behind throwing the money at all these things that you that you have that those resources? Is that fulfilling? You know, this relationship with God is this fulfilling what you think is discipleship and that's the that's the conversation we have with charity versus like Being in solidarity with people in hospitality, there's a relationship there. And it's not about a distance. And I'm glad you mentioned the virtual service. Because it is a distant. And somewhat Yeah, viewership is, and I can't watch virtual worship. I just, I just haven't done that a lot. I've been on them. And I surely don't watch them then. But, but I do think that there is something to, to that. It's like, do we really want to make church expedient and so accessible that, that it just becomes Yeah, this like, Oh, I can see it. Now. I can sit on my couch and watch church, I think there is a danger. If we push that far, you might as well have the church service like Netflix, church flicks, I don't know. But it may be. And if nobody better copyright that that's copyrighted church flicks, we're gonna start that. But I do think it could, it could really go into that.


16:15 – Simon Doong

So I guess that In summary, our response to the question is, in an ideal world, no, your faith is not like a subscription service. But it could feel similarly, if there's not that relationship and not that intentionality between you and God, the people around you the way that you engage in community and engage with worship engaged in church. So if you are feeling that it's feeling a little transactional right now, think about that. And why that is.


16:48 – Various voices

Ordination in the pcusa 

My ordination process

My experience with the care process,

My experience of the pcusa ordination process is like one of those giant lights, just blinding,


17:02 – Various Voices

It has been long, it has been frustrating it has been fraught,

Was that the CPM seemed to be there just as an entity to make sure that I was doing the steps in the process right,


17:14 – Various Voices

has been toxic, confusing, that uncovers every privilege, every opportunity, every unearned preference,


17:24 – Various Voices

Emotionally traumatic, it has made me question the church and question my place within the church,


17:32 – Various Voices

meaning as long as I was passing my classes, getting the paperwork and not espousing heretical beliefs, they didn't have much problem with me. They were pretty good at our meetings, about checking in with me making sure that I was doing okay mentally and emotionally


17:46 – Various Voices

That straight people and white people and men and cisgender people have over marginalized and minority people in the church.


17:57 – Various Voices

And there have been several instances where I've wanted to walk away, because many of the people on my CPM don't really see space in the church for somebody like me.


18:11 – Various Voices

But outside the meetings, I didn't receive much proactive support, either, which looking back would have been a pretty positive thing had we had it, and generally unhelpful in terms of discernment and understanding deeper my call to ministry.


18:33 – Lee Catoe

So this week, our special guest is here to talk about a very relevant question when it comes to leadership in the church and our calling to be ordained in the church and as an ordained person myself and going through this process. We always need to talk about this process and how we can make it better but today we are here with Brooke Scott, who is ready to receive a call, which is a step in the ordination process is ready to receive a call. She has an M div and an MSW, the MD PhD from Duke and MSW from UNC. And we are so glad that you are here with us, Brooke so welcome to the podcast. We're really glad that you're here with us. Before we begin our discussion with Brooke. Let's go over a few things about the ordination process in the Presbyterian Church. First, if you're interested in being ordained in the Presbyterian Church, you have to have a Master's of divinity or an M div from a theological education nospace and then you have to get involved with your presbytery CPM, which is a committee on the preparation of ministry to be an enquire and then you'll be a candidate and then you'll be ready to receive a call once you go through all the process. So as you go through your theological education, the ordination process requires You to take classes that will help you then pass the ordination exam. So then the Presbyterian churches as process classes will range from Presbyterian polity to Reformed theology. And you also have to take languages, which is Hebrew and Greek, Hebrew because of the original language and the Old Testament and Greek because of the original language in the New Testament. And once you do all that there is sometimes a requirement by Presbyterians to do a unit of CPE. CPE stands for clinical pastoral education, which can be set in a hospital with a chaplaincy program. But in some cases, it could vary. And once you're ready to receive a call, like Brooke, you circulate a Piff, which is a personal informational form. This informational form is all about you what you want people to know about you and the ministry that you want to do all the things to send out to ministries that are looking for leaders, and then many churches will fill out a myth which stands for a ministry informational form. And this is about what the ministry is looking for, what type of church, what type of community, what they're looking for, and their positions and all the things about that specific community. Those maps are located on the church leadership connection CLC for short, which is a system that shows all the churches that are looking for a minister for their call, and where they're located. And other stuff to all along this process. You have to meet with presbytery. Sometimes you have to go before your a CPM, which again is the committee on the preparation of ministry. And so there's many different types of things that you have to do. But these are the main ones. So now, let's get back to your question. It's pretty simple. What is the ordination experience like in the Presbyterian Church?


21:51 – Brooke Scott

Hi, Lee, thanks so much for just inviting me to be here, I'm so excited to have this conversation. This definitely is a very important topic, ordination process. Obviously, it's very long and arduous. And I am very grateful to be at this point in it. I would say that overall, I had a very positive experience with ordination process as a whole. I think some of my favorite parts were just, you know, having heard so many stories of people's different situations, I really did have a very supportive CPM, they all were very accepting of me and my viewpoints and supportive of my sense of call as I continued to evolve throughout the process, I think I was always kind of committed to social justice. And I committed to like outreach. But I think throughout the years that kind of really taught started to take shape, and I think even get even even deeper and more explicit. And they were open to it, you know, I don't know each and every one of their views on things, but they were able to hold space for me to be a minister and care about what I care about, in terms of racial justice, in terms of LGBTQ inclusion, and things like that. And so just like very supportive people, I really appreciated being able to check in with them yearly, that really helps me especially because I was a dual degree student, I was getting both my master's degrees. At the same time, it was very important for me to check in with them yearly to make sure that I was taking the right classes. And I was on even a stricter schedule because of the dual degree. And it really helped me to make sure I was fitting in everything I needed to fit in. That being said, it definitely had a lot of challenges as well. Even though I felt really supported. I felt very frustrated, often by the system as a whole and how it worked. And what was expected of me, one of the reasons I think I was so successful is because I naturally am good at school, I am naturally an academic, and I'm drawn to those things. And I can easily see how if those weren't my strong points, this would just not be an accessible system, even for me, someone who enjoys school, you know, it was very frustrating trying to schedule classes, all of the class requirements. There were many classes that cover topics that overlap, but if you didn't have but if it wasn't specific on your specific on your transcript, then it didn't count. You had to take a class, you know, you couldn't just say I learned a lot about worship in church history. You know, it has to be explicitly reformed worship, you know, things like that made it hard to schedule. And I think I also struggled with kind of the type of classes that are required in the denomination. One thing that you and I have talked about we is that just theological education as a whole, I think struggles with this but things like language required are very excessive. And I feel like we're so emphasized even through CPM, where I felt like there wasn't as much priority given to other classes that I feel like really impact ministers on a daily basis, like pastoral care classes, practical courses that cover like administration and financial issues, those were not emphasized at all, or even like brought up as part of conversation. And that is a denominational issue. But it made it difficult to feel like everything I was doing was relevant to everyday ministry. And I think too, when you have systems, it's really hard. Because not everybody fits into those systems, right. And so like, one thing that was hard for me too, it's just the the uniformity of the process, it doesn't necessarily tailor to each person's needs. So so for example, I said that I was doing both of my master's degrees at the same time. And so for that reason, there were a lot of things that I could not fit in, in a regular paradigm, a lot of courses I could not fit in. And so I had my own way of sort of fitting things in, but because of that, you know, the system was still pretty strict on everything that I needed to do, there was very little flexibility in terms of like, okay, could I like, use some of my social work training to like substitute for CPE? Could I, you know, do I still need to take a full like, language requirement, even if I've already passed the exam, like, things like that, that just felt like it was just boxes to check off? Not that I actually felt like, I was missing something. And so and I don't say that to brag, I say that too, to say that there were maybe creative ways throughout the process, I think to to say that I've gained certain skills and experiences. And so there was just not as much flexibility to like my specific situation. So it ended up but like, there were things that I've, that I had to complete over the summer. And like, even after graduating, just because like, it had to be the full course or the full credit, or whatever, in a way, that didn't always make sense for me specifically, if that makes sense. Because like I am, I did focus clinically in social work. And so like I've had experiences using clinical language and clinical interventions and things like that. And so that was one thing where, you know, I went back and forth a little bit about how much to push that because I was like, I don't want to, I don't want to say that this, this process is not the CPE or the other CPE process is not important, I think it is. And I did end up doing it and really gaining a lot from it. But I think in terms of time, and I think in terms of like what I was supposed to get from it, there could have been other ways to, for me to say that I had gained some of those skills. So not a lot of flexibility there. Not to mention, the ordination process is very expensive, very expensive to be a part of which I think also makes it inaccessible to a lot of people, for me, just having to take coursework outside of my normal full time. endive was a lot. And granted, like not everybody does that. I also didn't go to a Presbyterian seminary. So sometimes that was just something I had to do because the classes weren't offered, right. But it was expensive. And, you know, being like a black queer person, it was it was weighty, it was pulling a lot out of my pockets. And, you know, I when it came to not only just like extra coursework that I had to take, but also exams, also, also my psyche vow that was expensive. I know, they do try to break that up a little bit. And that did help some, but it was still like a chunk of money for grad student and, and then also travel time travel expenses, like each year when I had to go visit with CPM or travel to go do my psych eval, because I had to do it at a specific place. So those were all very difficult on me financially. And the last, the last class I took, which actually I'm still taking, it's over next week, my last Hebrew requirement has gone mostly well, but that was that was not something that I could afford. I was grateful to have a community come alongside me because they believe in my call and pull together money for it. And that that is what it means to be the church. And so that was very beautiful, but also sort of wish that there was like some kind of built in support for students, especially students who are marginalized in different ways to kind of make that a little bit easier. And now that I'm certified and ready to receive a call Which is very exciting, I have had a hard time I think, navigating that feeling like I have enough support to sort of be pushed out into the wild, if that makes sense. Like, I feel like up until this point, everything was laid out, everything was, you know, just checking a box, like, you know, checking boxes. And everything was very predictable and very, you know, made sense and, and was linear. And now, being certified and ready, it's just like being pushed off a cliff. And it's just kind of like figure it out. And I do feel like I can ask questions if I need to. But I also feel like a lot of weight is put on me to just meet the right people. circulate my Piff, but like the CLC system, not helpful at all. So like circulating your PIP is like, nice, because it gives you a chance to like create a voice for yourself and like create a pastor identity, I think and writing it but the CLC system is not helpful. It is not always up to date. It's not always clear where churches stand on issues like churches also right are giving their best, like putting their best foot forward. And so there's not always a lot of clarity about what they actually are, are valuing. And it's also unclear about whether or not people check it and how often and so there's not a clear system of like knowing when and how those things even get monitored. I'm sure there are myths and tips on there that like no one no one is using anymore, like the position is full or the person like found a call and nothing matches what's happening in real time. And so that is just like immensely frustrating. I found it more helpful, I think to just use Word of mouth and put my you know, put my name out there I made a website and you know, do have done a lot of networking on my own and a lot of kind of creative thinking on my own. And I do feel like if I had questions, I could go to my CPM. But for the most part, I don't think anyone prepares you for the giant shift that happens where you feel like everything is predictable. And then suddenly there's there's no direction. And so that has been very difficult has challenged me a lot. But I guess if I had to put a positive spin on it that has that has strengthened me as like someone who needs to take more initiative in the process. But at the same time, I would have liked to know that I would have to do that.


32:37 – Brooke Scott

So yeah, those are kind of that's kind of like an overview of my thoughts definitely don't have traumatic stories, like I've heard, I've been very grateful in that way. But definitely, I'm aware that there's a lot of systemic issues. And one thing I will say about the psych eval is that is an interesting thing, because I understand the point of it. Again, I'm someone who has spent time in the evangelical circle, where just the polity in general, I appreciate because there are checks and balances, and there are people to make sure that you are healthy. And so in that sense, I appreciate the purpose of the psych eval, I think, at the same time, it was a little bit outdated, the way that it would, or the way that it was assessed. I felt like if you had any type of trauma, which most people have something, if you had any type of trauma or any type of like diagnoses, like those were just not easy to explain to someone and as a social worker, like I, I believe in, I believe that the most important thing is not what you've been through, but sort of how you've moved through it. And, and, and that is like, you know, a better indicator of how healthy you'll be in ministry. And I just felt like, some of those people were only trained to like, look at what was wrong. And you almost had to like, explain, like, I've been in therapy, I've taken medication. I've been working on this my whole life like this is you know, like, I'm not just bleeding over people, you know. And so I think that, and some people are and like, those are important conversations to have, I think, but it just didn't seem like all of those people were aware of the nuances of being a human being because most people do have trauma. And I don't think it's about the type of trauma that makes you healthier not and so that was a little bit worrisome. And I did have to have some conversations to clarify during that process with them because I knew it was going to be sent to CPM and I was like I just I feel like maybe this should be worded differently or like whatever because I don't think that this makes me less of less capable. I think that people are born into families and worn into situations that they can't control and so overall, I think Some of that was a little bit outdated. And I wonder if there's another way to do the same thing in a way that is more trauma informed. And that doesn't make people have to say the worst thing that's ever happened to them and then almost be like punished for it. And that's like, yeah, I think I don't think it's productive to even ask someone to talk about the worst thing that's ever happened to them. But then I think if they do, yeah, knowing that, like, that's not gonna disqualify you from ministry is a big concern that I have about the process. So yeah, I wonder if there's another way to do the same thing in a less traumatic, less, traumatizing way? Those are my thoughts.


35:44 – Lee Catoe

Awesome. And I wonder, what would you say to someone in the ordination process right now? 


35:53 – Brooke Scott

That's a good question .I would say build a solid support system, both like if you can, ideally, that would be people in your CPM. But also build a support system outside of that build a support system of people, both in the church and outside of the church, people who know you, people who understand your sense of call, if you can afford it, I recommend therapy for everyone, just because this work is really hard, and it causes you to go really deep, if you're doing it well. And I just, I think it's important to have some of that be buffered by a regular relationship with somebody who's very neutral, which is what the therapist is, and get a therapist boosts your self care. I don't care what it is. What brings you like joy and life and keeps you grounded, because this was this, this is really hard work. It's both hard mentally, it's also hard emotionally. And I've joked to many people that going through the process made me feel like I was split wide open, no secrets, nothing to hide, all out there. And sometimes all out. They're open to critique. So I think it's important to be grounded as much as possible.


37:06 – Simon Doong

Well, Brooke, thanks so much for speaking with us today and for taking the time to talk to us about your experience with the ordination process. I know that a lot of the things you described really resonate with a lot of folks that are in the process now and that have been through the process before. So we thank you again for taking the time and we give you all the prayers and blessings as you prepare for your call and your ministry and this denomination, this faith, this church is so lucky to have you as a part of it. 


37:40 - Brooke Scott

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.


37:44 – Simon Doong

So our resource highlight for today is a wonderful opportunity that is offered through my office, the Presbyterian peacemaking program. And that opportunity is called the International peacemakers program. Since 1984, we've brought leaders from our pcusa partner, denominations and partner organizations around the world to visit with Presbyterians in the US each year to discuss their work on issues of peace and justice. And that also includes addressing issues related to poverty, climate change, human rights, and immigration and migration. These wonderful leaders are the international peacemakers. And this amazing program allows Presbyterians to learn about the tremendous work being done around the world. Now, in a normal non COVID-19 context, we would bring all the international peacemakers to the US to visit with congregations presbyteries or other organizations each fall. However, for the fall of 2021, we are adapting our model. So the international Peacemaker program will be available in a hybrid format. Some peacemakers will be visiting in person between September 24 and October 18. Others will have virtual visits and others will provide recorded discussions and presentations in a symposium style format. All future announcements about the international peacemakers will be posted on the peacemaking programs website for the International peacemakers, and that is at Presbyterian mission.org backslash international peacemakers. And the reason we're bringing this up now is because if mid council or a congregation or educational institution is interested in hosting a peacemaker, for an in person or virtual visit, we really encourage you to get in contact with us soon so we can get that scheduled and set up. And you can do that by reaching out to us via email at peacemaking at peace usa.org so we look forward to hearing from you and we really look forward to bringing these leaders to your congregations, both in person and virtually, and wealth, welcoming them into the pcusa come the fall.


40:14 – Simon Doong & Lee Catoe

This has been the matter of faith podcast brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so at faith [email protected] We look forward to hearing from you. See you next time. See you next time, y'all.


40:50 – Simon Doong & Lee Catoe

Thanks so much everyone for listening to episode nine as a matter of faith a Presby podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to the amazing podcast channel. And don't forget to leave us a review. It helps us to bring this type of content to you every week, so don't forget to leave a review.