Questions for the Week:
Carl Horton, Coordinator, Presbyterian Peacemaking Program
What are some tips for addressing/navigating conflict in the church?
Seeking to be Faithful Together: Guidelines for Presbyterians in Times of Disagreement
00:03 – Simon Doong
Hello and welcome to a matter of faith a presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question, because if it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might be a matter of faith,
00:21 – Lee Catoe
Whether it be faith in God, faith and others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unfound the interactive journal on Christian social justice for the Presbyterian Church USA. I am your host, Lee Catoe.
00:39 - Simon Doong
I'm your host Simon Doong.
00:41 - Lee Catoe
Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions. So Hello, everyone, and welcome to a matter of fate. A Presby podcast. Simon, how are you doing today?
00:55 - Simon Doong
I am doing all right, Lee. It is spring/summer. It's hot. It's hot. It's warm outside. And once again, everyone I know you can't see this, but I'm just going to keep praising Lee's hat game today. He has this. This orange. That is orange. Yeah, that's like a rust color. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm really digging it. Orange is my favorite color, everyone.
01:20 – Lee Catoe
So that's from a distillery in Louisville, and they actually distill brandy and not bourbon or whiskey. It's brandy, which is very delicious. And if you haven't had it, you should try it. I'm not gonna say the place because not sponsored. We're not sponsored by anything. No product placement. Yeah, so no product placement. We're not sponsoring. We're not being sponsored by anyone. But it is a great hat. And it's one of my favorites. And if you haven't seen Simon is sporting a tank top today.
01:56 – Simon Doong
It is work from home. It is hot. And here I am.
02:01 – Lee Catoe
Yes. We have to feel comfortable. But yeah, and also the pollen is getting to getting to me. It's It's It's out. It is out there now. So yeah, allergies, prayers for everybody who has allergies. But But yeah. So Simon, we have a question from a guest. And we're actually gonna say the name this time. We're gonna, we're gonna send that out there. So I think yeah, it's your turn to ask the question this week.
02:34 – Simon Doong
Yeah. And before I do that, I just wanted to make sure that I gave a shout out to Kyle Coombs, who submitted the question we did in the last episode, or two episodes ago, sorry, about the connectional church to thanks to Kyle for submitting his question. And we encourage you all to do the same. And without further ado, today's question comes from Jeff Schooley. And I hope I'm pronouncing that right. If I'm not Jeff, you can correct me. Jeff is a pastor in the pcusa. And so Jeff's question has some context, “As COVID is coming to some sort of end, or at least we're acting like it is. I'm finding that I haven't really processed a single darn second of the past 14 months. Case in point I was listening to an ESPN 30 for 30 podcast about when the NBA shut down for the season on March 11 2020. I'm not a big NBA fan. But listening to this podcast, I nearly start crying. That's when I realized throughout the pandemic, all I was doing was learning, communicating and making decisions, hundreds and hundreds of decisions. I wasn't actually processing any of it. I was surviving well. But that's it. I'm proud of those survival instincts. But I'm now lamenting that I never felt the time or space to process in real time. If that's even possible for something like a pandemic. Has anyone else had this experience of realizing you haven't processed anything until it came crashing in at an unexpected moment? Secondly, if this is going to be a part of our shared COVID experience, then what does it mean for ministry?” Jeff, that's a really powerful question. And Lee's gonna get us started with some thoughts. What do you think Lee?
04:31 – Lee Catoe
Yeah, that is a powerful question. And yeah, I don't know if I even thought about it until I read this question from Jeff. And yeah, haven't processed much of anything. I do think especially during work, I feel like we're all so consumed with being productive. And I think that this work at home environment has really kind of perpetuated that system of being productive like Everything is really close at hand. And we can work until whenever and it's really hard to cut off. And so there is no time to kind of just sit and wonder and process like all the things that have happened, the death that has happened to, to really take that in, because it's happened on such a massive scale, but it's also, it's also affected all of our lives. We know somebody who has died from COVID, it is a survival technique for our bodies to in order to keep going, we can't absorb so much information and process so much mentally. Because we then will shut down. And I feel like we have to figure out how to process it. And incremental times, I do think that it is important that we do process. But how do we do that? to the point to where we can also function? Because if we if we just let it all in at once? I don't I don't think that I don't think that's gonna be beneficial either. And so how do we really hold one another, and also have that grace for one another to, to expect people to process things differently? And how that manifests in our bodies and manifests in our relationships? Like how do we how do we hold that for one another. And I do think that, that we should be doing that in ministry as well. Because no matter what our ministry may look like it has affected and impacted so many people and it has affected the church. institutionally communally. It's affected all of those things. And I do think and we've talked about this on the on the podcast, that the pandemic will affect ministry at some point, but we're seeing it now with virtual ministry and, and the connections that happened through that. But I do think that it is going to have a long lasting impact and mental health is going to be a huge thing that the church is going to have to deal with, and how does the church really begin to center our mental health and to break those stigmas? Some churches don't even talk about that. So we're gonna have to figure out how to really begin this process and conversations with churches, with ministers, with communities to kind of meet people where they are, because, yeah, people just survive, we haven't processed at all. And I do think that it depends on the person. But yeah, it is something that I think will hit us as we're slowly emerging from the pandemic. Now, I will say the pandemic is not over. It's not over. But I think it's going to begin to affect people more and more mentally. And in these unexpected moments that Jeff was talking about. Yeah, how do you see this Simon?
08:04 – Simon Doong
I totally agree with you and with Jeff. I think that there's a lot of people who have probably had an experience, very similar to what Jeff is describing, I found for myself that it's been in the in between moments, so not necessarily in the moments when I'm actively doing something. But when no one was around that I felt like crying and sort of recognizing that there are things that that I haven't processed that I haven't given myself, the time to think about and wrestle with, and just sort of accept or feel. And I think that that relates to the survival instinct that Jeff was talking about. It's it's kind of like having this weight that you keep telling yourself that you'll deal with tomorrow. And for some reason, you just suddenly start feeling all of it right in that moment. So definitely want to affirm what Jeff is what Jeff is describing, as far as you know, this being a part of our shared COVID experience and what it means for ministry. I think it also means that in the church space, we need to recognize that people will be very emotional at seemingly odd, unexpected moments. And we need to allow them to have those moments. It means creating a space to help process both as individuals and maybe collectively as a community as well. And I do want to also emphasize that for pastors specifically, that's going to be very hard, because pastors are helping everyone in their congregation process. And there's not necessarily a space for the past year to do their own processing. So finding maybe it's it's a colleague to kind of Find in and to help process with if that's another pastor, or I don't know if this is a thing. But I've always been a fan of the idea of there being a pastor of pastors, so to speak. So someone who isn't necessarily engaged in congregational ministry, but who is a pastor, and whose job it is to provide pastoral care for ministers, if those exist, I think that would be really helpful. But yeah, everyone needs to be able to have that space for themselves to allow others to have those moments. And yeah, as you said, Lee, mental health is important. And therapy is an option. And don't be afraid to take advantage of it, because it can help in ways that we don't expect.
10:43 – Lee Catoe
Yeah, and I also think that in many ways ministers can think or leaders in the church may think that they are, they are equipped to deal with everything that's going to come their way. And in many cases, and I don't mean to say it so bluntly, but we're not. Nobody is because we don't know what's coming at us. We don't know what's going to happen. We don't know what's going to happen in our congregations. And I do think like giving ourselves permission to say we need help, or we need to see someone we need to talk to someone. And that's where that therapy comes in. We can't function and it's almost a function. And I talked about productivity. And but we've also been isolated. And so we have not only have we not processed, you know what's happening during the pandemic, but other stuff that has come up in our lives way before this is bubbling up. Because we've been in some of us had been in isolation. Some of us have been to war with ourselves for a long time. And so things began to bubble up that that we thought we dealt with that's happened there. In my time, during this pandemic, you think you think you've dealt with something and it comes back up. But yeah, it's happened in my life that when, I mean, I thought I had dealt with a lot of things, but they comes back up. And it has something to do and has a lot to do actually, with this kind of like, we have to suppress what we feel and all of these things. So we can get by. But I do think that at some point, it is going to come to a head, and we'll have to deal with it eventually. But But I do agree that there are there are times when I feel like leaders in the church think that they have to keep going and going and going. And there's this kind of mentality of if I'm not giving it my all, if I'm like ignoring me, then I'm doing what I need to do. And we have to get past that culture. I mean, that's kind of like a white supremacist culture that is white supremacy, culture, this like idea that I have to keep going and going and helping other people and not looking at myself. And yeah, and in this question, Jeff was like, that he's lamenting that he'd never found this space. And I do think that's another side of it, too, that maybe some guilt or whatever, that that we haven't made time for ourselves, and, and maybe investigate that a little bit more. But I do think it's just, it's gonna be a lot down the road. And we're just kind of seeing the, like, the little tip of the iceberg now. So I'm glad this question was asked, because if ministers or church leaders are listening to this, I just want you to know that you can't do it all. And at some point, you're going to have to have help. And at some point, there are people out there that will help you. And it's okay, to have that. And to say like, I can't do all this. I need to talk to somebody. And to get that out there. And I think that will help ministry a lot. If leaders can admit that.
13:57 – Simon Doong
Yeah. So thanks so much to Jeff for posing a vulnerable and honest question that I think more people really should be should be asking and wrestling with.
14:08 – Lee Catoe
Yeah, definitely. Well, with that, we're going to move into another question that you know, is a little lighter, but you know us, we will always pull something out of a question that has been asked us that is seems to just be a fluffy one. But it never is, and that there's never a fluffy question. So we got this question Simon, “What are your thoughts on stained glass windows?” I have many opinions but I would like to hear yours first.
14:42 – Simon Doong
So I'm a big fan of stained glass windows. Honestly. I think they're beautiful and I love the unique way that they let light into a space and can add atmosphere to a room or to a building, let alone color. And the fact that it's beautiful on the inside and the outside is something that is pretty special. It's funny in researching or not researching, but in thinking about this question, I actually did a little bit of research. And I just looked up the history of stained-glass windows I'm and does a lot of research, by the way. I want to point that out. Yeah, it's something I enjoy doing. It's one of my favorite parts of the podcast other than talking with les. But so I did some research about the history of stained glass windows. And in the end, that didn't necessarily lead to a whole lot of helpful information. But I did take me to some websites about the purpose of stained-glass windows, as stated by various stained glass restoration companies. So I'm going to quote a call. Yeah, well, I'm just gonna go ahead and share a couple quotes that I found. stained glass provides a certain level of privacy that ordinary windows do not without blocking light transmission. Stained glass windows developed as a theologically important art form, a way to convey to the masses, things the church wanted them to see, think about and understand, including Christ's death on the cross, His resurrection, and then some. So that includes depicting biblical individuals, groups of people, stories and or moralizing images. And finally, the more practical functional reason stained glass windows became popular was to help point people to God through their biblical scenes and ideas, which was to that checks out and make sense. But I think that's also helpful as we think about what stained glass windows are and what they represent in our churches. So that's just to give some context for folks. Yeah, what do you think Lee? What what are your thoughts on stained glass windows?
17:01 – Lee Catoe
Yeah, for me, I love stained glass, but I am not, I am not necessarily a fan of the pictures, like the picture stained glass. So another little fun fact. And I will admit that I didn't do a lot of research on this, but I do know this from my seminary days and, and learning about church history. So whenever the Reformation happens, when you know, when all of these Protestant denominations burst out of the reformation, one of the big things that changed was the stained glass windows that did not depict icon like iconography. And if you don't know what iconography is, it's like, you've seen the pictures of like, the saints, and things like that, like those are like iconography kind of thing. So whenever the Reformation happened, they did away with that. And they wanted to focus on Jesus, and, and all those things. And so those pictures and the stained-glass kind of went away, and that's where you just got shapes and colors. And there wasn't a there wasn't a lot of depiction of Bible scenes and things like that, but that that trend in America has kind of gone, I think that stayed more in Europe. And so and so now you do see the pictures of you know, the story of Jesus or whatever that's happening in the Bible, but but I do think I do think that stained glass, it does go deeper is not just something that's pretty, but it does have theological meaning and in many, in many, many ways that you know, to see, to see something created by human hands that then interacts with the sun interacts with creation, that is that ends up being very beautiful. During a worship service, it really sets the worship service to be something that is very, you know, very kind of spiritual and, and special. And it's one of the things that I've missed during this pandemic is being able to kind of see that but yeah, I do. I do agree that the that there is more meaning to stained glass. But historically, Protestant ism, kind of did away with the pictures and sometimes the pictures can instill images of Jesus that aren't necessarily true. Usually, we see white Jesus in the stained glass, usually we see white people in the Bible and so they're not very historically accurate and it because skew our ways of thinking about people, so I think we have to be careful. But I also think it's kind of a very beautiful thing to see. And you don't know you don't see it a lot in newer churches as much.
19:50 - Lee Catoe
So yeah, I am I am I like stained glass. But I also think there's, you know, always a caveat to it.
19:59 – Simon Doong
Yeah. I mean, in the same way that whatever images that we put up in our church and in our churches and in our buildings in terms of symbolism, and what that conveys, there's important things to think about in terms of representation, and inclusion. And so just something to think about now that I'm saying everyone needs to get rid of their stained-glass windows, because man, that would be a lot of money.
20:23 – Lee Catoe
And we would get a lot, a lot of pushback from that. If we were to say that, Simon, well, it's a good thing we're not. Yeah, we're not gonna say that. Keep a stained glass. But just you know, next time you look at it, you'll think a little bit differently about it, and read more on the Reformation. Because it is interesting. There are whole books written about art during the Reformation. And I remember one of my friends is from Northern Ireland. And I remember when she came over here, one of the first times that she found it very odd that stained glass had pictures and and things like that, because she's Presbyterian and a Protestant. And it looks look very different. Then, then what we have here, and so yeah, I think it's different in many places. But yeah, stained glass. Very interesting.
21:23 – Simon Doong
So joining us today for our guest question segment is Carl Horton, the coordinator of the Presbyterian peace making program, and Carl is here to talk to us about conflict. So the question for today reads, “What are some tips for addressing slash navigating conflict in the church?” Carl, what advice do you have for folks about conflict in the church?
21:52 – Carl Horton
Hmm. Hi, Simon. Hi, Lee. Good to be with you guys today. Thank you. I'm following the podcast and love it and appreciate your work. So yeah, conflict tips for conflict. Number one. I mean, I think one of the things we all know is, is a lot of congregations don't like conflict or avoid it. And, you know, in my experience in the church, over the years, we've often thought of the church as a place where we just don't have conflict, because it's not right, right. For us to be in conflict. We're Christians, we need to love each other, we need to get along. And so when conflict does arise in the cop, in a congregation, for instance, maybe we try to quell it as quickly as possible, right. So because we think it's wrong, we think that we shouldn't be having disagreements with each other or having conflicts and you know, in the, in the past few years, as we all know, sort of we, we've had cultural conflicts, right. And there have been a lot of conflicts, and it would not be surprising that those sort of seep into the life of the church. And I also think, you know, we've been in a time where we're distanced as well. And that makes for a really interesting dynamic when we're having issues, let's say, and we can't be face to face in the same room, we are distanced. And so lots of dynamics at play. And the first thing is for in the church, I would say, for us to recognize that conflict is natural and a normal part of life. And why would we expect? It's like thinking that our families won't have conflict? Why would we think that a community that we belong to, would just somehow miraculously not have conflict? So, you know, what I would say is we need to normalize conflict, we need to expect it. And so any strategy like avoiding ignoring, sweeping under the rug, those sorts of things are not going to be helpful to the community, right, a willingness to recognize conflict. And one of the things that I sort of hold close is this, this idea that life gives us conflict, right? When we're born, we're born into conflict right then and there things are not always happy and right. So life gives us conflict, conflict is life giving and conflict gives us life. So honestly, to if we can sort of shift our perspective and welcome it, acknowledge it as normal, a normal part of being the community of faith and so do not avoid, do not ignore, do not think that if if these people leave, or if the pastor leaves like, we're done and we move on, that often doesn't happen. So. So anyway, it's normal, it's natural, it's life giving and in the way that we deal with conflict, I think is important to think in terms of conflict isn't Not something that is goes away. But it's conflict is more episodic, right, it comes back. It's not that you can solve something, and then you're done. So there is a distinction that you want to make in the community of faith between conflict resolution, and conflict transformation. And you know, the the resolution of a conflict is often works, if people are not going to be in ongoing relationships with each other. If a conflict needs to be resolved, it kind of presumes that these are two people that are going to solve a problem and go their separate ways, right. And we see examples of that in life, right, where an attorney is going to help resolve a conflict, and the parties move on in different directions. But in congregations, we don't often move on in opposite directions. In fact, conflict resolution is maybe not what we need to think about in the community of faith, but conflict transformation. Right? So how does conflict lead us into a better future? How does it How does it lead toward change? Because actually, conflict is the engine of change, right? So we are off, I don't know about you all. But unless something sort of pushes or pulls me, I can be static, I can be complacent, I can be really happy with the status quo. And so in a congregation, often the way in which we move forward is we've gotta, we've got to address our conflicts and do it in a creative, transformative way. Right. So we do remain in community we are we are in relationship with each other not. So we're not going to part and go our separate ways. Although, sometimes that's the sometimes that's the solution. Right? I don't think it's the best solution. I don't think it's what Christ would intend for the church, I don't think, divide and go our separate ways. But the Presbyterian Church has experienced that, through the cons, the big conflicts we've had, we have those who basically say, I can't stay in community, pick up my toys go and create something new and different. I don't think that's what Christ wants for the church, I think, especially at the congregational level, I, well at the denominational level too, but I don't think you know, Jesus didn't create denominations. And Jesus didn't tell the denominations to go and continue dividing and dividing and dividing. It's, it's how do we stay in unity and grow as a community. So anyway, transforming conflict, moving us forward into better futures. And so that takes leadership skills, right, I think the session, and I know you have talked a lot on the podcast about what our church leaders, but I think it's a leadership skill that we need to cultivate, right, not being conflict avoidant, being willing to. So there's lots of tools for that. There's lots of ways that leaders can normalize conflict, and and expect it and handle it in a way that holds community to gather. The other thing I'll say, another tip is that we often think sort of in the binary either or right that if there's a conflict, there's only there's only two solutions, a winner or loser. And the nice thing about conflict transformation, is that when we when we understand that there's more of a there are more options than just two. So rather than a either or a both. And is it possible to have this and that. And so, so changing our thinking, rather than sort of this, there's only two options. Listen, life gives us lots of options. And so if we can help explore sort of both and thinking around whatever the issue is, so that's one of the strategies. I mean, I think, also the, we have to avoid things that would dehumanize the other side. So we try to find points of shared passion. What do we agree on and start from where we agree, and, you know, when we disagree, we often lump the other side into like a group, and then we don't really see their humanity, they are our enemy. They're the ones who think differently than us. So a lot of strategies in conflict, even mediation, is to humanize both sides. So for these, you know, like what we saw, I'll tell you that, you know, we all saw the conflict at that the Capitol with the insurrection on January 6. Do you know that there were unarmed civilian protectors? Who interceded and one of their strategies is they humanize? And we need to remember that in the church right when ever we're all children. God. And so we want to make sure that whoever's on the other side is not dehumanized. But humanized. And you, you, you find, you learn people's story, you begin to appreciate again, and it's not just the issue, right? That is what we disagree about. But we find those places of appreciation and agreement. So that's another strategy that we can certainly do in the church, we should never do human much dehumanize anybody, we've got to see God, the image of God in all of us, even if we disagree. So that's, you know, Republicans and Democrats, we're all people in DOD, we're all children of God, we may have different politics. So yeah, so those are a couple of strategies. I will say one of the things I love about conflict transformation, and this is this works in the church, but it works outside the church is that the goal of change, any kind of change process, that conflict is sort of guiding us through needs to be to decrease violence, right? We didn't ever want to become violent and increase justice. So, you know, for me, the church needs to speak very clearly about violence, against violence, right. So there's no place for violence in our conflicts. So we need to be out there in church and in culture, saying, we're doing things that decrease violence, and, of course, increasing justice, right? Because that's, that is really what you know, peace, you can't have peace without justice. So in our peacemaking program, yeah, we we oppose violence, right. And we want to work for nonviolent solutions to any conflict. But we also want to increase justice. So maybe even in a congregation, we want to avoid anything that's explosive. I've had, you know, I've had elders, when I was pastoring, a church, I had an elder walked up a piece of paper that I had passed around, and throw it across the room and stand up, push his chair back. And, you know, that's not the way we hate that was to me, you know, I think we can do violence, in not especially physical or against somebody. But anyway, the I think we want to in all of our interactions, be respectful, and all those good things to remain in community. And but yeah, I think we need to think in terms of even the conflicts we have in the church, what would increase justice in this situation?
32:38 – Simon Doong
Thanks so much for sharing that, Carl. So we're gonna go to our resource segment now. Yeah. And we wanted to know, if you had any recommended resources for folks in congregations about dealing with conflict or times of disagreement that can help give them guidance or tips or things to keep in mind. So you have any recommendations for folks?
33:00 – Carl Horton
Yeah, so the resource I'd like to bring to your attention today is something that's been around a long time, it actually was approved in 1992, by the 204th General Assembly, and it was used as guidelines for that assembly, in how they handled their business. Right. So it was it was approved and used at that assembly. And at that time, it was so successful in helping the commissioners be in conversation with each other around tough topics, that they basically entrusted it to the whole church and said, We want all congregations to have this resource. So it's its title is seeking to be faithful guidelines for Presbyterians, in times of disagreement. And, really, it's a very clear, simple and, and it some of it might be sort of for folks a no brainer, but it is a good reminder, it offers 10 basically Pratt basic practices grounded in Scripture. So we've got biblical references for each of these practices. And it's, it's, it's a good reminder to folks, when we enter a time in a meeting, or in any relationship, really how the practices we want to hold on to, to sort of help a disagreement be a fruitful one. Again, it's it's like what we were talking about in conflict transformation. But these are sort of practices that are for instance, you trust it that everybody wants to be faithful to Jesus Christ, right. Everybody in this disagreement wants to be faithful. We recognize that there are various positions on a topic. We listen actively, right. We restate clearly We've heard we, you know, scripturally, go direct. If you have a, if you have a conflict, if you have a concern with your sibling, you go directly to that person. Again, it's that same thing. Share your concerns directly, speak in love, focus on the idea and suggestion instead of questioning somebody's motives. So these are all like, Oh, yeah, t that's how we are to conduct ourselves in the community of faith, share personal experiences about the subject so that people can others can fully understand where you're coming from. Again, remember, I said conflict is often about identity. So what do we feel? What do people need to know about us, and what's motivating me in this particular discussion, so you share personal experiences, find points of agreement, we talked about that. So share where we agree on our viewpoint, often, that's a great place to start, rather than where we disagree, stay in community. So don't walk up that piece of paper and storm out of the meeting. But stay in community, even if the discussion is vigorous and full of tension, and then include your disagreement in your prayers, right, we know that prayer is an important part of change. And, and, and, and that we sort of interest things to God to help guide us, you know, refine us and remain open to the spirit, which might reveal something new to us. So these guidelines are really helpful. I encourage folks to use them in their new elder new Deacon trainings, I think, I think it's it's sort of we have even a pocket guide that folks can get that it has this in, in like a size that you can put in your wallet. And it's it's sort of the Reader's Digest of this or the Cliff's notes of guidelines. And the other thing that I'm really pleased is this is available in Spanish and Korean language. So the seeking to be faithful, as a as a handout is it's printed, you can order it, there's no cost, make those available to your to your congregation, the pocket guides, I think are in packs of 25. Hand those out, those are great. And I think those could work with young people with youth groups, we want to help people at all ages to understand conflict is normal. And there's a way we conduct ourselves in the community of faith around a disagreement or a conflict. So absolutely a timeless resource that, unfortunately, is still well, not unfortunately. But man, we are in a time where there's lots of conflict. And so this resource is really helpful in the time we live in.
37:42 – Simon Doong
Thanks for sharing those, Carl, we'll be sure to put the links to all of those resources in the show notes. And we do hope that people Check it out. Check them out, because these are resources that are readily accessible, and as you said, always applicable. And unfortunately timeless. But we really do hope folks, check them out. So thanks again for being with us today.
38:07 – Carl Horton
Great to be with you. I'll continue to listen to you guys every week. I appreciate your work.
38:15 – Simon Doong & Lee Catoe
This has been the matter of faith podcast brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion you can do so at faith podcast at peace usa.org. We look forward to hearing from you. See you next time. Thanks everyone. See you next time.
38:52 – Lee Catoe
Hey everyone thanks for listening to Episode 13 as a matter of faith, oppressively podcast, don't forget to subscribe with your favorite podcast platform.
39:01 – Simon Doong
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