Episode 19: Additional Classes, Meeting Bible People & Presbyterian Affiliated Schools

Questions for the Week:

• What is one subject/topic that is not taught in schools that you think should? 
• If you could meet any person/figure from the Bible, who would it be and why? 

Special Guest:
Jeffrey Arnold, Executive Director, Association for Presbyterian Colleges and Universities

Guest Question:
I've heard about colleges and universities being associated with specific religious denominations. What does it mean for a college to be associated with the Presbyterian church? What does it mean in terms of the education students get and the approach that schools take?

Resource Roundup:

• Presbyterian Scholarships for Undergraduate Students
• PCUSA Parent Loan Program

For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website

Transcript

00:03 – Simon Doong

Hello, and welcome to a matter of faith a presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question. Because if it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might be a matter of faith,

00:21 – Lee Catoe

Whether it be faith in God, faith and others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unfound, the interactive journal on Christian social justice for the Presbyterian Church USA. I am your host, Lee Catoe.

00:39 - Simon Doong

I'm your host Simon Doong. 

00:41 - Lee Catoe

Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.

00:45 – Simon Doong

Well, hello, everyone. Thanks for joining us for today's episode. And thank you, Lee for being here. How are you doing?

00:53 – Lee Catoe

I'm good. It is a busy, busy time. But I am enjoying a little bit of a break in the hot weather. It's only like in the 80s compared to the 90s, which is a big difference. And yeah, very excited. I got recently just got some additional tattoos. Yeah, we talked about that in the podcast the other day, and which is exciting and fun. It's kind of my farewell tour. So I currently live in Nashville. But I'm moving to DC. And so yeah, we've been visiting restaurants that we like, and places we haven't banned because of the pandemic and getting my tattoos and from my tattoo guy as quick as I can before we go. And yeah, what's interesting, and fun. Yeah know. How are you doing?

01:48 – Simon Doong

I'm doing all right. At the time that this episode comes out, it'll be just after Fourth of July. So I'm going to preemptively say that I hope I had a good holiday weekend. And that it? I hope it wasn't too hot right now today. It is very nice. And I hope it stays that way.

02:08 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, yeah. So by the time this comes out, yeah, well, that we would have celebrated, I think, right? Yeah, yep. And just so everybody's out there. You know, fireworks are always fun for dogs. That's what I don't enjoy this time of year. Our dog does not like fireworks. So that would that probably was not fun. Since this will air afterwards.

02:33 – Simon Doong

Small children also may not like fireworks or just anyone sensitive to noise. So prayers for those who do not for whom fireworks may be a little more concerning or troubling.

02:46 – Lee Catoe

Yes, indeed. Indeed. Well, Simon, we have a couple of great questions we got in and the first question is, “What is one subject or topic that is not taught in schools that you think should” Schools are all in the news now about critical race theory and stuff.

03:10 – Simon Doong

Yeah, and I think that's great. And I really, I really appreciate this question, because it gets us to think about not only what should people be learning about, especially in their education, and as they're developing, but what are we overlooking, in terms of giving people the tools and the knowledge to be better people in our society. And so I kind of have two ideas for this. One is, I really think it would be helpful to have a human relations class for young people and children, especially grade school age. And when I say human relations, I don't mean just health class, or sex ed, or maybe you had like a home econ class, I'm talking about a class that actually talks about relationships, and how we interact with each other. And so it's about building confidence in being able to build relationships with other people, and also with yourself. Because if I think if people were able to do that, we would have a much more, I think it would actually be a more peaceful society, but also more confident individuals and people that are better able to articulate themselves and able to relate to each other, and probably be a bit more sympathetic and empathetic as well. So that's one idea that I have. The other one is I think that we do teach history class in schools. But we should, we need to teach the whole story or the real history, not a not sort of a generalized for lack of a better word, whitewashed bird's eye view of history, that leaves out a lot of the gruesome details about what actually happened for society to become what it is now. So I think we really need to teach that in school so that we have a better understanding of history, because otherwise, we'll repeat the same mistakes. And I think that we should not be afraid to call out bad things that happened, you can name them and say, yes, they happen in the past, but we're talking about them because they will affect our future and do affect our present. And I think a part of this idea of a, you know, having a more full comprehensive understanding of history is also understanding our own story. And our own history as, as individuals, it would be done in a way that allows for the agency of each person to focus on the part of one's history that they're comfortable with. Because I know that for some people asking about their history, or their family's history can be very painful and very complicated. Issues of slavery, or maybe adoption, and not knowing exactly where you come from, or who you come from. So the question is about who you are, and what some of your history is, the question is not, where are you from? Because that question doesn't necessarily, that's not necessarily a good question to actually understand somebody. So thinking not just about your history, what your history is, but who you want to be. So it's kind of my two ideas, human relations and a more comprehensive understanding of history. What do you think, Lee?

06:35 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, I'm definitely on the, the train about, we need to be teaching things that actually happened. And also, adding on to that, I think, some of the arguments that go of like, kids can't handle these kinds of details, children can't handle the date, the gruesomeness of these stories. And, and, but I also want to say, really, I think children are very much capable of kind of processing things and may need help processing it even more, which I think is all, which I think is like a beneficial thing to help kids really process these because they're experiencing the manifestations of, and the legacies of slavery and the Doctrine of Discovery, and they're experiencing all these things, and they can handle it, kids can handle more than we give kids credit for. So I'm definitely on board with that. And I'm also on board with how do we teach kids or nurture kids and their, their giftedness, like the certain things that they're very gifted at, are talented at or are passionate about, I was nurtured. And I enjoyed the sciences, but I was kind of just pushed that way. And and in many ways, because that it was, it was just easy for me to remember things. And so the sciences were something that Oh, like, I thought I should be doing. And then when I realized that is not what I wanted to do, it was almost too late, I had a college degree in it. And just all that time of vino, I just relied on like a traditional school model and these stereo and these, like, these aspirations that society wants to feed you. And so how does schools break from that? Like, what is success? And what, how do we cultivate those passions for kids, and I mean, art and music, and all those things are taught in schools, but it's, it's the first thing to get cut. And for me, those are the things that should be staying, those are the things that nurture some kids or nurture some people where that is, where their passion is and where their talent is. And it's a way for them to escape. In some ways, there are realities and and yeah, I think, for me, it is if arts aren't taught in your school, that is something that really needs to be cultivated. I was really appreciative. And this doesn't happen a lot. But there was a graphics are unlike publishing class that I took, and it was a part of like the yearbook staff, like I was editor of the yearbook, and not all places have that. But we had a great program with that and those skills kind of followed me throughout my entire, you know, what I'm doing right now. So like those types of classes that nurture someone's passions, and it's not just kind of a traditional, academic way of doing school.

10:02 – Lee Catoe

And I also think that there needs to be a space to provide someone to, to be educated and to learn about faith traditions, and not just Christian traditions. In a way that isn't bias. I don't think schools need to have any sort of public schools particularly don't need to have any sort of faith base to them. But I do think that to have the ability to understand other people's traditions and cultures and faith is very important, because right now we're, there's so many stories and skewed ideas of, of what it means to be a Muslim, or what it means to be, you know, a Buddhist or what it means to be a Hindu, like, there's so many skewed views because the the, it's based off of a very Christian or Christian, Judeo Christian centered mindset, specifically in this country, that it gets really skewed and, and it's not true at all. So that kind of understanding if that is possible, which is very hard in this country to break to where public schools now in Florida are asked to have a moment of silence or two are required to maybe have a space for prayer, which we know will be Christian prayer. So those kinds of things, I think, for me would be important to begin a conversation and to instill and, and kids and young people that all the things are being told aren't necessarily, that's not necessarily how it is certainly when it comes to faith. And when it comes to history. 

11:53 – Simon Doong

Yeah, I really like what you said about the arts. A connection that I made for myself, is that I learned to play piano. And because I learned to play piano, it was easier to pick up another instrument if I wanted to, because you learn music theory, in order to play piano, you learn how to play using both hands read, two different clefs, all those things. But I also think that learning to play the piano made it easier for me to learn a second language, because of the skills that you develop, because you're engaging that that part of your brain. And so if we eliminate the arts, we are eliminating the opportunities not only for creativity, but to experiment and tap into parts of our own our own mental capabilities that we otherwise wouldn't use, maybe as much. So definitely, that definitely resonates with me, as far as a opportunity to provide an instruction, education and understanding around faith. I think that's a really interesting idea, especially for public schools. It seems it's interesting, or originally, at least for me, we always did the Pledge of Allegiance in, in public school. And then eventually, that went away. Because then it was because Pledge of Allegiance was, was too religious became to be too awkward to be religiously affiliated. So they started moving away from it. But now there's just nothing. And I feel like you don't even talk about religion, unless you go to a private school that's associated with a specific faith, or you go to college, and you have to take a class on religion. So it definitely can be a balance, or an in between, to provide some education and understanding around not only maybe one's own faith and a little bit of context, but also about others. I really wonder what I would have thought had I known about other faiths earlier in my life, I'm not saying I wouldn't be Christian still, but I, I just wonder if it would have helped me to try to understand how other people see the world.

13:55 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, and especially after I remember, when 911 happened, and like our school, just stop and, and we watched it. And, and I bring that up. For one, when we have the conversation about kids can't take or the violence that is in history and all this kind of stuff. We stopped and watched planes fly through a building, and we were young, and everybody stopped and did that. So I I do want to continue to push back on kids can't handle things, but kids watch many things. And we actually stand stood there and watch planes flying to a building. And to have that. And then you say we can't teach kids the real history of slavery, or how we you know, cultural and physical genocide of Native people. To me, that doesn't make sense. But that also brings me to the need for education about religion because then it Muslim became the enemy. Muslims became the their faith became so skewed and so attached to a small group of people within that faith tradition, that nobody like it, that that if there was a basic understanding, people would have said, this is not this is something that is not true to that faith tradition. And that happens now we have Christian extremism and white nationalism tied to Christianity. And though that is growing in some ways, and has been in this country, I do think if we had that, that foundational education of what that what faith traditions are, we could then we can then have a more empathetic reaction, or a more informed reaction to say, Oh, this is not what that is. This is not what that faith tradition is supposed to be. And that moment when we stopped, and watch that, I just wonder how different we would have, like, absorb that on television, that that moment of like, we can't teach kids about violence, but we were witnessing it on TV. And at the same time we were witnessing what would be the aftermath of what would be justice, anti Islamic or Islamophobia that came that it came to be known as, and still is? How are our educational spaces could do better in that, because we lifted up that day, and we stopped because our, our educational institutions are very kind of nationalistic in some ways. I'm very patriotic, I'm very like, yeah, you know, like nationalistic. And, and yeah, I just sat here and thought about that today, before we recorded this. And I was like that moment, we could have experienced that in such a different way, that we maybe even could have grieved, better grieved more if we back up. But all those other things were in the way of a country that that didn't grieve, the families did. But like a country as a whole, we were so consumed with Islamophobia. And like all of these things. I just wonder if those kinds of educational opportunities could have prepared us better, and still could prepare us better for that we can't provide a counter narrative to the people who instill these like phobias and, and this Xena phobia against other people a fate because that broader narrative was never created in our institutions, because we never touched it. And so now people are creating these narratives that aren't true for the people who are who have these experiences. Yeah, it's for me it it goes so much deeper? And how do we really kind of counteract that, and be preventative of it. And so we do need a educational opportunities to really delve into religion and faith not as a tool of evangelism. But as a tool of education, which I think people skew, you're not teaching my kid about another fate. You're not trying to convert them. It's like, that's not the point. The point is, for us to be educated about it, and not convert anybody to anything. And who knows, they might find that, that fate more appealing. And that's their choice. But I do think there needs to be some sort of way to do that.

18:48 – Lee Catoe

Yeah. And that really relates well, to your, one of the first point you made about children not being able to handle certain things. Because especially in today's technological internet driven age, anyone can find out anything at any time. It's accessible. Now, whether what they find in the information that they discover is skewed or biased, or truth, they need the tools to be able to read that and say, Okay, I understand the point that is being made here. I also see that this has a certain lens that's being supported or conveyed, and that's really important. And so we're and to the question about can children, you know, handle violence and things like that. It's so common now to see recordings of things that have happened on people's phones from shootings or police brutality and me, you name it, it can be recorded now. So we need to give children and young people the tools to be able to talk about it, and to be able to analyze it and just Got it, because otherwise, we're leaving it up to them to have to just deal with it on their own, or go back to the internet. And then read information and find information from sources that you don't know where it's coming from. So you need to give them the tools to be able to vet that and understand that and make informed decisions around it.

20:18 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, and I think we're an also I just want to say like, there are many children of color, who experience who have experienced violence, and racism, and white supremacy, their whole lives, and they have to have, their parents have to have conversations with them, that are real, and that are, like a matter of life and death. And so I wanted to lift that up, too. And that it's usually the white parents, or the white family members who say, my, you don't need to be teaching my child that, like you're taking their childhood away, you're taking all these things away from my kid, and it's like, your kid is a kid of privilege, he can have a childhood, she can have a childhood, they can have a childhood, there are many children of color, specifically, who have to mature in ways that other children don't. And so that excuse to me as also kind of the perpetuation of white supremacy, that we have to keep our kids innocent. But in reality, kids are being taught and instilled in white supremacy culture, which to me is inherently violent. So you're teaching your kid violence, you're teaching your kid how to perpetuate these systems anyway. But it's just what is it what we have perceived as violent, and what we what we don't want to remember and what we want to erase. So it's like, perpetuating a lost cause narrative. And you don't know what lost cause narrative is basically, all these white people are trying to erase the fact that slavery even happened, and, and changing that narrative. And so we're just continuing to see that narrative. And so anyway, that that public schools of education can start there. And I also want to say, if you want to get into this, you need to start reading your kids curriculum, you need to start reading curriculums within the schools, you need to challenge school curriculums, which they're mostly in many ways are centered in one space that has a certain voice that has certain control, call your school boards know what that is, like, what your kids are being taught, because that is one place that people don't realize the power that it has. And so I just wanted to bring that up, too. Because Yeah, we were talking about, you know, kids can't take kids can't take certain things, but some kids can, because they live it. And some kids can't, because they're intentionally and and because of privilege are kept from that. And so I just want to, to kind of lift that up to say, our schools need to be better, and school boards and curriculum development. If that is your gift, then read them. I did, I did a project on it once it was Confederate school curriculums. And that is the one that was the first thing that confederacy did was to take control of their kids curriculums to instill values and morals and the ideology of the Confederacy. So it has a lot of power schools do. And I hope we challenged that. That's all I got on school Simon.

23:53 – Simon Doong

Well most schools out now. It's summertime, although with the pandemic, I don't know, maybe. Maybe some folks are still in school because of shifted time. 

24:05 – Lee Catoe

Some got out later, I think. Yeah, some got out later summer school, some people, some kids do that. Get ahead.

24:12 – Simon Doong

That's right. Well, Lee, we spent a decent amount of time talking about the past and a lot about history. And so we're gonna dive a little bit deeper into biblical history for a moment. But this next question, which reads, “If you could meet any person or figure from the Bible, who would it be and why?” and Lee I'm gonna go ahead and just ask that maybe we can't say Jesus as an answer to this because like, that's a cop out answer. But if that's your answer, I'm cool with that, but yeah, who who would you like to meet and why from the Bible?

24:51 – Lee Catoe

I mean, I would like to ask Jesus a couple of questions, but I think that's why I want would want to meet some people from Dubai. goal is to just ask questions to also see what they look like because artistic renditions are are not accurate to Yeah, to do all those things to get a fuller context of Yeah, this, this writing that we always talk about, I think for me it would be the, the two midwives in Exodus, Exodus one one through 21, the midwives shiphrah and puah. And the reason why is because I am I've heard it said that they were kind of the first ones in Scripture that kind of went against, and just kind of dictators. So Pharaoh asked, you know, Pharaoh sent out a decree like, you need to get rid of the Hebrew babies, and, and all this kinds of stuff. And these midwives who birth these babies, they were they didn't do that, they went against that, and kept this, these people in this lineage going and went against this, this ruler, and for me, there, they are only mentioned and these, and this little bit of Scripture. And so I would want to talk to them about their work and what they did, and, and all these kinds of things. And for me, it is mostly the women in the Bible that I would want to talk to the women who were instigators for justice, and the women who probably did all of the work, and the man just got the credit. So I would definitely like to meet them. And these stories and in this Yeah, and this these words that we always managed to talk about. But for me, it was just to be asked questions. How did it happen? What are what did what wasn't written down? Like? What are the like, they fill in the gaps of the narratives? So yeah, I know that that's kind of all over the place. But it that that would be my first choice. What about you?

27:17 – Simon Doong

Yeah, all the folks that I thought of thought of because I want to ask them questions as well. One of the first people that comes to mind is Simon Peter. And the reason is because I really just want to walk up to him and say, You're the one who denied Jesus three times, right before he died. You're the one who walked on water for a second. And then you had fear, you began to sink. And yet you're the one who became the rock that the church would be built on, when the church went would be founded. And I just want to ask him, how did you do it? or How did you have that faith? When for so long, you had so many doubts, because I feel like that's a really relatable thing for a lot of us is to have these doubts and to make it and to be very obvious about it. And it's easy to point out Simon Peters flaws, because we read about it, and we talk about it and we dissect everything that happens. But I really want to ask his perspective on how did you grow. Because there's a lot of times in the Bible where we watch him just kind of make the same mistakes over and over, like a lot of the disciples, but he's the one who would go on to become a pillar of founding the church. And so I want to just ask him about that experience and how he understands his own growth. throughout that process. Another person that comes to mind is actually Joseph, Jesus his father, because I want to ask him what it was like raising the Son of God? And what was it like to find out that your soon to be wife is pregnant? And then on top of that, find out that she's pregnant with child from the Holy Spirit, and this child is going to go on and change the world? How do you be a parent to the Son of God? And how do you love the Son of God as a parent in a way that you is that love any different than the way you love your other children? I don't know. I would really love to ask those types of questions. And Mary I would ask the same questions, but I actually feel like we know more about Mary, she gets a little bit more time in Scripture a little more screentime for lack of a better word. Still not enough. But so those are a couple biblical figures that I would like to just ask about their experience and their thoughts on everything that they went through.

29:47 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, that's, it's interesting. And I've mentioned this at, well, not on this show, but another show that I do, but I have mentioned so There, there is a branch of Christianity called Syriac Christianity. And one of the parts of their tradition is to fill in the gaps like to imagine kind of like, more, say a midrash, which is kind of like riffing off of like taking a story and moving forward and filling in gaps and things like that from the biblical text, which is a, which is what's in our tradition, I guess what I mentioned that it's within our tradition. And so this kind of question really reminds me that because this is a way to really kind of see where the spirit takes us when we're when we come upon something that we have questions about. And as Presbyterians, we do ask questions a lot, because we're kind of in this space of hideaway keep moving forward, how do we reform, but there is a story about Mary and Joseph in the Syriac tradition, because they also asked that question, they also asked, like, what was the interaction between Mary and Joseph, when this happened, there are some more stories in that tradition about Jesus as a toddler, as a teenager, you know, there are gospels out there that speak to that, too. And so it is very interesting that, that people from, from all spans of time have just kind of asked like, what, what happened? And like, what, what did you think and like, do Where were you for? Where did you go for Joseph a site? Where did you go? And, and I think that's very, very interesting. And I wish we could do this more. I think this question is a great way for us to to reimagine, like, what preaching could be, or a big word homiletics could be to really take and ask these questions about what does it mean to be a dad like a father to Jesus? And then how that we could expand that in today's? I just think this question is very, a very good question when it comes to like homiletics, like, how do we imagine what where does the spirit? And for me, that is the Spirit? How does the spirit work in these kinds of people in Scripture? And where does it take us? When we think about what snacks like? Lazarus, I've always wondered, like, he was decaying, like the man was breaking down, and rose. So what was it like for him the rest of his life? Like, what did people think about him? Like, the way that all of this like that history was placed on him? Like, how did that affect his life? He was the one that was dead for like four or five days and raised from the dead. And people knew about that, like, what is what is his? Yeah, what is his story more. And there are also other prophets out there. Other people that were proclaiming Jesus, that were a part of the disciples, and I want to ask that person a couple questions, the little guy on the tomb that we don't know who it was, I want to ask him questions, the beloved disciple in john, which is a fascinating character. What's his deal? Are there do we don't know so many?

33:26 – Simon Doong

Yeah, there's a there's a ton of figures and people in the Bible to talk about and really dig into thinking about what their experience and their perspective than what their story is. And so we're gonna also encourage everyone listening, send us an email at faith podcast@pcusa.org and let us know which biblical figure or person you'd like to meet, and why. Maybe we'll share those if we get enough of them.

33:54 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, we'll share them. Maybe imagine where they're at now. I mean, what happened? That would be interesting. We'll do our own little midrash to them.

34:05 – Simon Doong

Yeah. So let us know, folks. So today, we have a very special guest. Although now I'm starting to recognize Lee that every week. We always say we have a special guest joining us. Most true we do we always say that. But every guest is special, and we're always glad to have him on the podcast. And for today, we're really happy to welcome Jeff Arnold, who is the Executive Director for the Association for Presbyterian colleges and universities to the podcast. So Jeff, welcome to you. 

34:39 - Jeff Arnold

Thank you, Simon. Good to be here.

34:43 – Lee Catoe

Yeah. Welcome, Jeff. And this is kind of personal to me. I went to a Presbyterian affiliated college that I went to Presbyterian college and usually people always ask me, Well, which one I was like the Presbyterian college Which one, but yeah, this is a great question. The question asks, “I've heard about colleges and universities being associated with specific religious denominations? What does it mean for a college to be associated with the Presbyterian Church? What does it? What does it mean in terms of the education students get and the approach that schools take?” So what do you say, Jeff?

35:28 – Jeff Arnold

Well, it's not a simple question, although it sounds like a simple question. But the answer is a little bit different probably for Presbyterian related schools. And it might be for other church affiliated schools. And for the record, there are approximately 800 colleges and universities out there that are affiliated with some denomination, either the catholic church or one of the mainline Protestant traditions. So there are an awful lot of opportunities out there for students that are seeking a church affiliated option for college. In our case, we have 54 schools that are part of our association. They have been found that over the past 300 years, which is kind of interesting, Presbyterians had a bit of a head start in the so called New World going back to the founding of Princeton University, which was the first Presbyterian school in the US. From that point, missionaries and others began to spread out across this emerging country. And by the time the civil war started, over a quarter of the schools in the US were Presbyterian, founded colleges and universities. Unfortunately, at that point, the press parents lost a little bit of momentum in the church kind of divided between the North and the South. And so there really wasn't a cohesive model that allowed all of the schools to define what it meant to be a Presbyterian affiliated college in the same way. And so much like the church itself, that colleges and universities typically are governed at the local level. So all of them were founded by either a Presbyterian missionary or a local church, potentially a presbytery itself, or maybe even a citizen. And so the covenant relationships that each of our schools have, or at that local level, as a result, there really isn't a national. What's the right word, there isn't really a national edict, I guess, in terms of what it means to be a Presbyterian related college because most of that was defined locally. And so typically, if you look at the governing board for a Presbyterian college or university, and this would be true for Presbyterian college and Clinton, South Carolina, you're going to see members of that local community who are serving on that board, possibly Presbyterian clergy, other civic leaders, and then members of the greater higher education community at large. And so that group will determine what the goals will be for Presbyterian college. And that would be the same situation at any one of our other 53 schools. And so as you look at these 54 institutions, what you're going to see is a great deal of diversity in terms of not only location, but academic programming. And I would say spiritual climate. So we have some schools that are very evangelical, that would fall into the category of being Christian colleges. We have schools that are very progressive, very spiritual, but they don't look anything like you might expect a Presbyterian related school to look, then we have some schools, quite honestly, that are kind of in the middle of that spectrum, that are fairly secular, that have been responsive to local and regional workforce needs. The role of the church, the role of spirituality hasn't been as robust, perhaps as it could be. And again, part of the role that we have as an association is to try and help each of our individual schools meet its respective missional goals. And at the same time, monitor what's happening on their climates. From a spiritual perspective, make sure chaplains have the resources they need to be effective. Make sure students have the programming and the services that they want available to them. And so for students that are looking at a Presbyterian related college, you know, unfortunately, my advice is you need to really look at the entire group to understand what's available to you, because they are not alike. And you will find significant differences. Again, if you go from for example, eckerd College in St. Petersburg, Florida all the way across the country to Spokane, Washington, where Whitworth University is located. So again, I guess if variety is the spice of life, then you know, Presbyterian colleges are kind of right in the middle of all of that. And I think there's a significant degree, not only a flexibility, but an opportunity that students would want to consider.

39:26 – Simon Doong

I really appreciate that you talked about the variety of educational experiences that a Presbyterian college could provide to a student. I also went to a Presbyterian college affiliated college, the College of Wooster outside Cleveland in Ohio, in Wooster. I didn't even realize it was Presbyterian, affiliated until I had already applied, gotten in and was about to go and I was telling people in my church where I was going to college and they said, Oh, that's a good Presbyterian school and I was like, Oh, I didn't know that and then lo and behold, I arrived on campus, and I found out that our former mascot was the Presbyterian steamrollers. And we still have a Presbyterian Church house on campus. And that was actually a very active, small church house community, in terms of taking stands on a lot of different social justice issues. So I always appreciated that. But it was always interesting thinking about where's the sort of the line or difference between some of the, I guess, entered interdisciplinary thinking that I know Presbyterians value, and how that overlaps with the liberal arts education that I received?

40:39 – Jeff Arnold

Well, it's interesting, because the schools that the two of you attended really represents some of that diversity. And there's a great line that is used in a lot of our promotional material that comes from the president emeritus of Davidson College, dr. john kirkendall. And what Dr. kirkendall has said is, diversity is what makes the Presbyterian college options so special, because each of them gets to decide for itself, where the intersection between faith and learning comes together. And I've always thought that's very interesting. Western, for example, I would put on the more progressive end of our spectrum. And I would describe the spiritual climate there as being just that spiritual. It's very pluralistic, you'll find accommodations for Muslim students, for Jewish students, for Christians, obviously, at Presbyterian college, it's going to be a little bit more traditional, it's kind of hard to escape that heritage when the name of your school is Presbyterian college. But again, more of what people might expect to see in that particular faith climate. But again, the spectrum is pretty broad. And one of the interesting facts, I think that escapes a lot of people is just the coverage that our schools provide 54 institutions serving nearly 150,000 students annually. About half of those students are the first in their families to attend college. So they're first generation college students, almost half of them are from lower income families, about 36% are from underrepresented minority groups. So it's a very diverse set of schools, both in terms of structure, location and programming, as well as in terms of the students they serve, which, again, is why it's important, I think, for students to take a look at many of them rather than one or two, because you'll see very, very different things. 

42:21 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, I remember when I decided to go to PC, and this is not we're not we're not throwing out ads. And we're not sponsored by any of these places. So we are not trying to sway your your choice of where you want to go to school, whoever's listening this, but I do remember telling people about Presbyterian college and when you hear Presbyterian, he automatically, as you said, like think about church, and they're like, oh, did you have to like, do all these things? And I was just like, Well, not really. It really, I'm glad you mentioned the variety, like we did take like a New Testament and Old Testament class that was kind of required. I don't know if that is now but it does run the gamut of what you really want. And so yeah, that's great that it offers some diversity.

43:10 – Jeff Arnold

Very few of our schools require chapel I think four out of 54 that actually have required chapel, probably about half had some type of a humanities course requirement, which can be met with theology courses, or with history courses, or with philosophy courses. So again, a lot of the preconceived kinds of things are not really present in most of our schools. And if you look at the students who attend our schools, again, one would probably think there are a lot of Presbyterians on campus. Well, on average, about 6% of the students on any one of our campuses will be Presbyterian. The largest faith cohort actually would be the nuns, students who say I don't have a faith tradition, followed by Roman Catholics, then Methodists and then Presbyterian. So again, it's a fairly diverse set of folks from from a religious standpoint as well. And that would be true with faculty, with staff with presidents. I think out of our 54 schools, only six of our presidents are actually Presbyterians. We have more Methodist and Catholic presidents than Presbyterians. So again, I think it speaks to the the openness that the church has always had to a variety of different positions, both in terms of faith traditions, as well as academic positions, because we, we definitely value freedom and independence, specifically academic independence. So again, you're not being funneled into an environment where you're only going to learn a particular perspective on an issue. And in this day and age, that's really important because I think, with some of the social justice initiatives that are really a value to our students and to our institutions, you need to have an open mind. And you need to be able to see things from a variety of different perspectives. Which is why we say that we're grounded in faith but driven by discovery because I think that's the essence of what college is all about? And we're not churches, we are educational institutions. And so we have different priorities in terms of developing people, to basically be good citizens and kind of this global society that we call the world. So

45:23 – Simon Doong

Well, thanks so much, Jeff. That certainly gives me a lot more clarification and better understanding about what it means to be a Presbyterian affiliated college or university. And I know Lee said, we're not sponsored. But I will say I am happy and proud to be an alumni from the College of Wooster. So I will say Go Scots!

45:43 – Lee Catoe

Blue hose Go!. They're kind of the same thing. Just a different name for the same mascot.

45:51 – Simon Doong

So we're going to transition to our resource roundup segments, in which we get a chance to highlight some really relevant pcusa resources or opportunities. And Jeff is going to be with us for this as well, to talk about some opportunities for Presbyterian students, or students attending Presbyterian colleges and universities that they universities that they may not be aware of. So, Jeff, what are what are some opportunities that people should know about?

46:19 – Jeff Arnold

Well, Simon, I'm glad you're keeping me on for the segment. Because I think it's really important for folks to know that sometimes when we see the sticker price of a college, it doesn't really represent what you're going to pay at the end of the day. And I think that's very true with our schools, because they're all very, very generous with financial aid dollars. And so if you look at a school, whether it's the College of Western, whether it's Presbyterian college, you might be taken aback a bit when you see the actual cost. But if you follow that through, I think you'll learn very quickly, that very few of the students on the campuses are actually paying that sticker cost. Part of the reason is because of the generosity as I mentioned, and that generosity, generosity is especially prevalent. For students who come from a Presbyterian background, almost every one of our schools have special scholarship and grant funds that target Presbyterian students. And so if you attend to Presbyterian Church, if your parents grew up in the church, there's a good chance that there would be additional financial aid dollars available for you. And to complement that the Presbyterian Church USA has a significant amount of grant dollars available at the national level. If you go to the pcusa.org website, and you just type in undergraduate grants or scholarships, you'll be taken to a page that shows you how you can apply for those dollars. And they started $4,000 per year. And they go up from there based on financial need. So again, in addition to all the other financial aid that you may qualify for, the church has tried to make an effort to also support Presbyterian students in their pursuit of higher education through some of those resources. And for parents, there's also a parent loan. And if you're attending college, you may be familiar with the federal government's Plus Program, the parent loan for undergraduate students, well, the church has a similar program, except that the conditions and the terms are better than the government's, as you might suspect. And so again, there's additional dollars there to support parents who want to help. So again, some resources that aren't necessarily promoted very heavily. But again, if you're listening, and you're Presbyterian, and you're looking to go to college, you're already there, you might want to investigate some of those options.

48:22 – Lee Catoe

So thank you, Jeff, for all those resources. And I know I really benefited a lot from having that kind of information when I was looking for schools. Yeah, being one of the first people in my family to complete a full college experience. And so it was very helpful. And I hope it's helpful for people out there who are listening and we will have the links and things on the show notes for people to be able to easily access this information. So again, thank you, Jeff, for, for being here with us. 

48:55 - Jeff Arnold

Well, thank you both, it's been my pleasure.

49:05 – Simon Doong & Lee Catoe

This has been the matter of faith podcast brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program in unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so at faith podcast at Pc usa.org. We look forward to hearing from you see you next time. See you next time y'all.

49:40 – Lee Catoe

Thanks everyone for listening to Episode 19. As a matter of fate, or press the podcast Don't forget to subscribe using your favorite podcast platform.

49:50 – Simon Doong

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