Episode 21: Success, Gettin' Some Rest & The Bible and the Law

Questions for the Week:

• What is your definition of "success"? How do you think the Christian definition of success differs from the secular definition?
• Sundays are supposed to be "the Lord's day" in which you take a rest and do no work. I've always found this interesting because everyone "rests" in different ways. Further, in the current context in which many people work from home, they may end up working some on Sunday. What are ways that you are able to "rest"? And what really qualifies as "rest"?

Special Guest:
Rev. Sandra Moon, Licensed Attorney & Director of Admissions at Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary

Guest Question:
How do you understand the relationship between the Bible, faith, and the law?

Resource Roundup:
Lousiville Presbyterian Theological Seminary

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Transcript

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00:03 – Simon Doong

Hello, and welcome to A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question. Because if it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might be a matter of faith,

00:21 – Lee Catoe

Whether it be faith in God, faith and others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program and Unbound, the interactive journal on Christian social justice for the Presbyterian Church USA. I am your host, Lee Catoe,

00:39 – Simon Doong

and I'm your host Simon Doong.

00:41 – Lee Catoe

Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.

00:46 – Simon Doong

Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of a matter of faith, a presby podcast. I'm so glad that you're with us today. And Lee, I'm really glad to be seeing you and I'm, well people can't see your shirt right now. But I'm diggin that purple.

01:02 – Lee Catoe

I don't normally wear purple. If you know me, I have a very basic color palette. I don't go beyond like, I don't know, blue and gray. And maybe some like neutral. neutral tones are my thing. This is kind of a neutral tone. It's like a deep purple. But this is adventurous for me. So I appreciate it. Yeah. How have you been, Simon?

01:27 – Simon Doong

I'm good. I'm slowly you know, working through the word we're in summertime. There's a little bit of vacation happening. There's a little bit or a lot of work happening and just trying to walk that balance of taking some time to rest while also keeping up with everything. Nice. Yeah,

01:47 – Lee Catoe

vacation has been great. And it's just been really nice to get away for a little bit even though you're you kind of sometimes work always. And we talk about this all the time, sometimes where it creeps into vacation and need to be a little bit better about that. But yeah, we're really glad to be here this week and keeping the podcast going. We are over 20 episodes, which is hard to believe. So everybody out there. Just a reminder, subscribe, leave us a review. We always love that. But with that, speaking of success, and how to make this podcast successful with your reviews and your subscriptions, we have a question about success, and it is in quotation marks. So the question reads, what is your definition of success? How do you think the Christian definition of success differs from the secular definition? Interesting. What are your thoughts Simon?

02:53 – Simon Doong

Well, I really like this question. Because I think the idea of success and goal setting is really important just for understanding one's own life and sort of maybe even purpose. But I hope that folks also recognize that success is not just about achieving goals. It's also about learning. And it's not always quantifiable, or at least I don't think that it is. For example, I think part of success, at least for myself, is having a loving family and supporting them, or being able to achieve certain goals that I set for myself in my job or career. But again, these things aren't just quantifiable per se. In terms of family, I mentioned about supporting and loving family members. But it's not just about that, it's actually about the quality of the relationship that I have with them, if that makes sense. And I think that that really stems from a Christian understanding, because there's also the value that we place on our relationship with God. And therefore how we also try to, you know, reflect some of that in our relationships with others, particularly those closest to us. And also not only the quality of our relationships, but what are the values and lessons that we're able to impart to each other through those. So success can be quantitative. It also can be qualitative. And I think that the Christian definition is probably a little more on the qualitative side. And probably, it might not be as materialistic as a secular definition. And that's not saying there's anything wrong with saying, I would like to make a good amount of money to be able to support my family. I think that's perfectly fine. But I think that we do have to be careful about the things that we are placing as a value or as valuable in our ideas for success as we try to reach it. And I guess, finally, just if success is like our faith journey, which will have peaks and valleys, but also will be transformative, I think that also means that our definition of success should be able to be transformed or adapted based on the things that we learn in our lives. So it's not a strict definition by any chance. But I think that it's a little bit more adaptable for where we find ourselves in our lives and as we keep learning.  Was that too, too abstract?

05:25 – Lee Catoe

Now, you know, I'll be abstract too, because, yeah, I think it's the word success. It always takes me back to like, when I was in school, like, what do you need to do to succeed, and usually, it was like vocational, or how much money you can make, what job you can get, and I was always kind of meant or kind of pushed to being a doctor. And that was because, you know, doctors make a pretty good living, and you can be comfortable and all that kind of stuff. And so I feel like that is what people sold me as what success was, and not kind of a definition of, for me, like success with, I don't think I would use that word, but I would, I would much rather use kind of the, and this has a lot to do with, like, the secular versus like, what as a person of faith that I am, like, what brings me wholeness, or what, what is in my life that not necessarily makes me like happy for, like, I put that in quotations, but like, brings me joy, which I think is very different than happy. And that within my life, to be whole. And to be where, I think God wants me to be is actually also kind of following the spirit in a lot of ways. And for me, that is that is kind of the marker of pushing, pushing me in a lot of the decisions that I've made in my life. And I think that is framing, you know, what it what it means to be a whole person is like authenticity, like being authentic, for me is a measure of, quote, how successful like success or, and, and where I think that God is leading me to be and kind of answering that call. And in some ways, which I know is not the easiest for people, d so I don't think I don't think any of this conversation is easy, because I think on any path that you take, there will be times where you have to make decisions, and you have to kind of go with your gut feeling. And for me, that is kind of a spirit thing. So yeah, I think for me as a person of faith or as a Christian, there is a definite difference society and like capitalism does push you into thinking, success equals material, but that can be taken away very easily. And I've seen that happen. And we continue to see that happens, especially through this pandemic, things can change. And at the end of the day, what is there to kind of keep you grounded, what is there to bring you joy, what is there to, to bring you wholeness, but to also challenge challenge you and in a loving way. And so I think that's all very important. So it does boil down to relationships and that relationship we have with God and where the spirit is working. So yeah, I think there is a definite difference, and, and how we move throughout the world.

08:38 – Simon Doong

I really appreciate that. You mentioned calling because I think feeling a call by the Spirit, a call by God is something that you don't ever plan on happening in your life. It just sort of does. And suddenly, your whole idea about what success is can be uprooted by that because you thought you were going one way and then suddenly, oh, I feel like this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Or this is where I'm supposed to be. For example, for both of us, we both served as young adult volunteers through the Presbyterian Church USA. And I think both of us really value the experiences that we got through those years of service. But by some other measures of success that wasn't successful, because we didn't immediately go into a job that paid us money. We did a year of service where we didn't make any money. And we focused on anything. Yeah, we focused on vocational discernment and living in community and learning from the communities that we found ourselves in and working in the faith based nonprofit sector. So and look at where we are now. We're both still in the faith based nonprofit sector. So just goes to show you that you don't always expect to be called in a direction but if you allow yourself to be called into it, your idea of success may change with that. Yeah. And there's something pretty, pretty powerful about that. I also think that success in in whether it be the Christian, a more Christian definition or a secular one, also should, we should understand how to not tolerate, but to live through and learn from failure, if that makes sense. Because we can, we can fail, but it's not always a failing teaches us something about being able to improve or be better or say, okay, that didn't work, we need to do something different. And I think we don't need to go down the rabbit hole of talking about success and failure in the Bible. But I just thought of one that I'd like to throw out there. Would we say that Moses was a failure? Because he never made it to the promised land? I don't think so. I think he lived into his call, and then he died. You know? And it is what it is, but I don't think we would call him a failure. So in the same sense, we may live into something, we may be called to be a part of a movement or start trying to make change in our community change that we may never see ourselves. And we've seen that with many great activists, and movement leaders. But just because they weren't around to see the changes that they made didn't mean they weren't successful.

11:18 – Lee Catpe

Yeah. And also, like success is, for me, the word success kind of creates the idea that something is like done, you know, it kind of kind of implies that you've kind of completed something. And for me that that's not, that's just for me, that's just not how life works. Like, it's always there's always something that  I do need to work on, or there's always kind of something that's going to be next or, yeah, and and, and I say that because of a lot of the work a lot of like, the biblical references is that people, there are people in the Bible and Jesus that, that it wasn't just kind of a done a done deal. And there was always something that was happening next. And there was there was not a lot of focus on the goal or the future. But it was, for me a lot of the moments in Scripture is like living in the present, like, and for me that that's kind of like what success can do too. It's like you're focused on the goal. In many cases people or people may get, and I was this way too, and can still be like, just so narrowly focused on the end goal that we miss the process and miss what's going on and, and how to get there. And I think that's a big difference is how do we live our lives in this? This space, like in the liminal, I think is best to describe it. So yeah, I hope that helps with what success is for the person who asked this question, because I get kind of wary about using that word. Because I think it can be, it can sometimes be very future oriented, and move us away from the present.

13:12 – Simon Doong

I hope that our responses about success, were successful and giving you more to think about as you try to ponder success for yourself.

13:21 – Lee Catoe

Yes. You will ask more. We always ask more questions. And that's another thing about this podcast, we really don't answer questions. We just respond. 

13:33 – Simon Doong

Yep. That's what we do. And speaking of questions and responses, we have another question about rest. So the question reads, Sunday's are supposed to be the Lord's day, in which you take a rest and do no work. I've always found this interesting, because everyone rests in different ways. Further, in the current context in which many people work from home, they may end up working some on Sunday, what are ways that you are able to rest? And what really qualifies as rest? Well, Lee, I leave the rest up to you to answer that question.

14:21 – Lee Catoe

Simon with the puns. Right. Yeah. I really do think it's up in the air and it very depends on the person as to what is rest. I may look at somebody who is doing something that I would feel is very draining or very Yeah, energy sucking. And that for me is not rest. When it's when it's not energizing, but like it is giving of energy. It is being kind of like you know, the energy is drawn from your body when you do it now, for some people. Take running for instance, is rest for me. Also doing physical exercise like that, for me is something that clears my mind that, for me is something that, you know, I don't have to think about. And it also kind of boosts my energy level, which many people think that would be the opposite. But reality in many ways, it's, it's not kind of gives you energy. And so, but for people who might be looking at me running or going to the gym, they'll be like, he's not resting. Likewise I can be like, on the couch watching TV and that for me, too, is resting. Like I will do that all day long. But I think that's, it really just depends on what about it all depends on the energy. And for me, in the Bible, it says yes, rest, but it but it also didn't say like, sit down and do nothing. I think that's very different resting to be being with your family, or going on a vacation. Or it could mean being in a room by yourself and watching TV. And I love watching trash TV. That's stressful for me. And so I think that's, it really just depends. And to try to define it can also not be restful. You know,

16:20 – Simon Doong

I think we should have a podcast sometime talking about our, our trash tastes and TV shows. That'll be another episode for folks. That's a spin off. Yeah, for me as well, rest is about restoration and being restored. And it's interesting, because on Sundays, you know, I go to church. And I don't know if anyone is aware of this, but going to church, being involved in church, helping do things at church actually has a lot of work involved to it. And things that are not always restorative, sometimes they're just things that need to be done in order for the worship service to happen. Or in order for the coffee to make sure that it's made at the right time and put out and then tables are torn down and chairs are put away. But I do that because it is restorative for me because I enjoy participating in my community in that way. And as part of my worship experience and being in fellowship with other people. But that's just me. And they're things that I choose to do. And so I agree with Lee, that rest is when you're not engaging in activities that require specific types of energy or focus, particularly if those things are close to what you do for your job or occupation, if you have one, unless you want to use those skills as part of what you're doing, which gives more power to you. But ideally, you're putting it into something else, something that is helping build you up helping to give you that energy to take with you into the rest of the week. And ideally, maybe taking a chance to engage scripture or be in community. Or if you need to, like you said Lee completely disengage, sit in a room, watch some trash TV shows, listen to some great podcasts. Like this one.

18:04 – Lee Catoe

This one might not be as restful, though. Yeah, probably not. Yeah. And also just throwing it out there if like church leaders are listening that yes, I'm glad they brought up Sunday in this question, because Sunday is not very restful for some people who are leading worship and in it and it is not for me. I don't do congregational ministry full time. But I did do a supply for a few months. And I do remember it feeling very draining, and very exhausting. And, and, and in many ways, missed many ways. I didn't feel like I was also worshiping with my congregation. And that's just kind of the culture of the church sometimes and how some churches do worship and things like that, but, but I do think it is really important for church leaders to, to kind of not feel guilt about resting. And to also say that your Sunday morning is not rest, like your Sundays are not rest. And I think that that is important to remind ourselves and for that to be okay. And, and I know a lot of people in the church who have days off and to kind of take advantage of that and disengage like there are some times where like I want and we talk about trash TV, but there are times where like I do need to watch something that I don't have that I don't have to think about and that makes me laugh or is just so ridiculous that it's completely different than the work that I do. And I know that I know for some people that works as well. And so the work that we do is important and it is life changing and it is life saving. And I also will say that that we also do to kind of take a break and breathe a little bit, and for me that is what rest is to it's finding space to just be able to catch a breath. And, and any way that we can do that. So church leaders out there, find a time to take off. Because I know Sunday's aren't the best, sometimes.

20:23 – Simon Doong

Yeah. And relating back to the first question. I think part of success is about also setting boundaries for yourself to be able to achieve the things that you want, because simply working all the time is ultimately just going to burn you out and make you less efficient and less productive and unable to achieve other goals that you may have set for yourself, or that you feel called to try to do. So keep that in mind. And yeah, I know for pastors or people or church leaders, Mondays, and Fridays, or Thursdays are often very popular times that they take off because they can't take off on Sundays. And take advantage of that. Because you all work very hard. And we are very appreciative. appreciative of it, and you earned the day off.

21:04 – Lee Catoe

Yeah. And let's try to change the culture of the church that Yeah, even Jesus needed to get away. And we need to figure out how to cultivate a time for yeah, a time for rest. Because that does, it does eventually lead to a more whole way of being than, than just a system of production, which keeps us from resting. 

21:46 – Simon Doong

So our special guestsfor today, I'm very excited to welcome and our guest is Reverend Sandra moon. She is an attorney licensed in Kentucky and Indiana, and currently serves as the Director of Admissions at Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Sandra, thanks so much for being with us today. 

22:00 - Sandra Moon

Thank you. It's a joy to be here. 

22:05 – Simon Doong

You know, it took me a long time to finally start saying the name Louisville correctly. I always said Louisville, Louisville, Louisville until finally, some of my colleagues said no, Simon, it's Louisville. And so I'm, I'm grateful for their coaching so that I can say Louisville correctly when I finally you know, started doing a podcast.

22:30 – Sandra Moon

The pronunciation is still kind of that there's some controversy. My partner is born and raised in Louisville, and he is adamant about pronouncing it Louisville. So, yeah, but I'm on I'm on team Louisville. 

22:45 – Simon Doong

Well, Sandra, our question for you for today is going to draw on some of your law background. Today's question reads, how do you understand the relationship between the Bible faith and the law? What do you think Sandra, how do you understand that relationship?

23:05 – Sandra Moon

So as a minister, and as a person of faith and a lawyer, when I think of this topic, there's one Bible story that really comes to mind: Luke 10:25, parable of the Good Samaritan. So for folks who hopefully, most folks are familiar with that parable, but I'll kind of give a quick summary and read part of that. So Luke 10:25, starts out saying, “Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus, teacher, he said, ‘What must I do to inherit eternal life?’ Jesus said, ‘What is written in the law? What do you read there?’” And I love how Jesus understands the way lawyers think. And he immediately goes to the text, the wording of the law. So the lawyer responds, “You shall love the Holy One your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself,” and Jesus responds to the attorney, “you're right.” And then the lawyer, being a lawyer, asks Jesus “who is my neighbor?” And what did Jesus say in response? He told the parable of the Good Samaritan. So in this parable, we know that there was a man who was beaten and robbed and left for dead on the side of the road. And the first two people who passed him were a priest and alleviate, and they didn't help the man won't even walk to the other side of the road as to avoid this man. And the likely explanation that was given for why neither the priest or Levi helped this man who is in need was because of ritual purity laws. They're probably on their way to some kind of religious ceremony and they couldn't make themselves unclean. So they didn't help the man in order to stay clean before God following some other laws. So a Samaritan was someone who had would have been hated by, by the Jews. And it was a Samaritan who stopped and showed compassion and went above and beyond societal expectation, even today societal expectations, and caring for this man. And so when I consider the intersection of the Bible and faith and love, I see a gap a love as the foundation. And Jesus teaching and ministry lifts up that we need to balance the letter of the law in the spirit of the law, because if following the letter of the law stands against honoring the spirit of the law, then as people of faith we are called to go against or challenge the letter of the law. And beyond just the parable of the Good Samaritan, we saw Jesus do this in his life in ministry, he had physical contact with people such as lepers that were viewed as unclean and healed some on the Sabbath, so Jesus’ life and ministry challenged the rule keepers of his society, who are committed only to following the letter of the law. And usually for the purpose of maintaining their power in order, I think applied to our time and place, we’re called to do the exact same thing. The laws and regulations in our country were created for both practical purposes of having an ordered society, and to give some framework for health, safety and morals of our citizens. So in law school, the traditional law school textbooks is usually it's a collection of snippets of case opinions, in order to give us this grand picture of how the laws of today have evolved and where they originated. So I think in most of my textbooks in law school, the first few cases were usually from England, or some other source, even before the founding of the United States. And then through the textbook, it progresses through the different decades through different Supreme Court periods, just to show how laws have evolved as our society has changed. And I think the goal is to have our laws is to have a fair and just society where people can live and flourish. And we see language that supports this in the foundational documents of the United States and the Declaration of Independence and in the Constitution. But as we know, as time changes, and society changes, our laws have to evolve to reflect those changes in society. I think as a person of faith, if a law is rooted in injustice, or if the law repeatedly results in injustice, so if it's applied in ways that lead to injustice, then we have to call that law into question. And I think the church historically has been at its best, and by best, I mean, the most faithful to Christ’s teachings, when we fight against laws that are unjust, and when we challenge laws that are antithetical to God's love, and I see that the church supporting movements throughout history, even contemporary history of civil rights movement, apartheid in South Africa, and just the ways that people of faith are continuing to challenge laws. One of the programs I think about, I believe it's through, that some of this was organized by the peacemaking program, but just the mission in the Borderlands in in Arizona, and just providing basic needs like water to people who are crossing the border in search of safety and a better life for their family. 

28:45 – Sandra Moon

So yeah, I think to kind of it all goes back to the spirit of the law, love the God love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your strength and all your soul in your mind and loving your neighbor as yourself. So as a person of faith, that is my lens for looking at laws and whether or not they need to be challenged.

29:04 – Simon Doong

Wow, that was a lot. And yeah, but I'm really grateful that you, you went into the historical context for understanding where the letter of the law comes from, but also understanding where that spirit comes from. Because sometimes, there are times where the letter of the law is imperfect. And there are times where the spirit of the law may also be misguided or imperfect, sometimes both need to change and sometimes it's really just the letter that is the problem, but the spirit may be in the general sort of correct direction as we understand it. And using more recent examples, I think as we've you know, we finally start to, we have seen churches and governments start to be obviously become more affirming of LGBTQ+ communities and in terms of marriage or ordination, but then we also see other places where laws are being put in place that then take that backwards annd ultimately discriminate against those individuals and people with those identities. And so I think it's always a tricky, Ii's a tricky situation for everyone to try to separate: What is the spirit of the law? And what is the letter of the law? And how do we live into that, especially in a time of polarization? I'm thinking back to more to January, and obviously, the riots at the Capitol. It's hard to tell in that situation. I mean, obviously, in that situation, there's a lot of misinformation as well. But again, that spirit of the law versus the letter of the law, I just really love that, in your law school experience. Were there times where? Or were there cases? How do you sort of wrestle with it? When you if you're looking at a case, and you see a ruling that you think may have been only about the letter, but not the spirit? Is there something that I guess happens for you when you see that, that going on and your understanding of that situation?

30:59 – Sandra Moon

Um, yes. So one of the beauties of law school is that, you know, we have, we have the case summaries in front of us kind of the, where we get certain case law, but it's part of the Socratic method just to, to raise questions and to argue both sides. And, and that's how that's how laws evolve in, in our country. So that's anything that's challenged, either the state or the national level through the appellate courts, and ultimately, the Supreme Court, if it makes it that far, but I think it's just recognizing that based on time and place and circumstance, our understanding of different situations, changes, and that how the law is always fluid. And it can always be interpreted another way, arguments can always be made one way or another. So it's both one of the blessings and one of the challenges of our legal system, just to know that, just because the law is worded one way or interpreted one way, today, a different argument can be made down the road. So there's always room to grow and to, to lead to more just society. On the flip side, there, there's the opportunity to go in the other direction and to oppress groups of people, and to lead to more negative consequences. But I am at least hopeful that that there are people of faith and people who don't recognize don't come from a faith tradition that that fight for justice through our legal system.

32:32 – Simon Doong

Yep, we all hope that all of us and more of us will, will stand up against injustice and to make our legal system represent the the justice that we're all called to be a part of the net, we want to see, I'm going to ask one more follow up question, which may be better for a separate podcast, we'll see. You talked about the letter of the law. But there's also I think, there are some times where we as Christians take biblical scripture also to the letter, and maybe less about spirit. And do you think that that is similar to how we may do that in terms of with our, I guess, human laws or governmental laws? Do you think we do the same thing sometimes with Scripture as well? And does the same logic apply? There is letter and then there is spirit or content or context that matters? Does that make sense?

33:24 – Sandra Moon

I think so. So hopefully, I can respond in a way that that addresses your question. So yes, I think that even within Jesus’ teaching and ministry, Jesus just was pointing out that kind of the letter versus spirit. So thing, the healing on the Sabbath, which was one of the reasons that ultimately led to bleed to Jesus death, you know, that the Pharisees saying that he broke this law, this is one reason that we can justify crucify him, or just leading to the events, the crucifixion. So I think we look at that, that there was the law was no work on the Sabbath. And, you know, that's, that's rooted, you know, why is there this law, no work on the Sabbath, and it's rooted in God's love for us, for God's people to have a day of rest. And to and it goes back to the greatest law you know, it is taking that time to love God to worship God, and to take rest for yourself. So if we see that is that that's the purpose of this law, the biblical offering now working in a Sabbath, but in, in the gospels know there's someone in need someone that needs healing. So in that case, where if the letter of the law is for love, that act of healing, even if it's on the Sabbath, even if it goes against the interpretations, the legal experts at that time, Jesus saw that that healing someone on the Sabbath is more in line with God's law than the reputation at that time. So I think Jesus just by his actions just reflects that challenging so that law was present was rooted in the right places, but the way it was being applied in that situation and wasn't rooted in love. So um, so I think Jesus example of how we how we interpret how we challenge laws and is just present in his ministry and actions and healing in the Gospels. And I think I'm kind of similarly in, yeah, I think in more apply to laws and in our day and age now being unlovable there are a lot of the protests over the over the murder of Briana Taylor. So we look at those laws right no knock warrants, you know, they may have, there may have been a good reason why these laws exist allowing no knock warrants, but then we look at the way they've been applied. And if they have been applied disproportionately against a larger people of color, then we look “okay, the way that that law is applied is unjust.” And then we need to call into a question of whether or not that's a good law and how we treat it. So that's just kind of one example of looking at letter versus spirit of law both biblically and in the Us today.

36:30 – Simon Doong

Well, we are going to transition to our resource roundup segment and Sandra is going to be staying with us to talk to us a little bit about opportunities and information around Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, so Sandra, take it away.

36:46 – Sandra Moon

Led by the Holy Spirit, Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary educates people to proclaim the gospel to care for all and to work for justice and communities everywhere. Louisville Seminary is located in Louisville, Kentucky, and we are one of the seminaries of the Presbyterian Church USA, but our students come from diverse ecumenical, and sometimes interfaith backgrounds. I do want to give a shout out to our sister seminaries because all of our pcus seminaries. pcusa seminaries are excellent. Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary works towards a world where all can flourish created by the justice and mercy of God, the welcome of Jesus Christ and the creativity of the Holy Spirit. Some of our core values include a deep commitment to anti racism, and full affirmation and inclusion of our LGBTQIA plus siblings in ministry. So at Louisville Seminary, we offer the master of divinity and Master of Arts and religion degrees, and we're the only pcusa seminary and one of very few seminaries or theological schools nationwide that offers the Master of Arts and Marriage and Family Therapy Program. All of our half time and full time master's level students receive a minimum of a 100% tuition scholarship. We also offer dual programs, including dual programs in business, social work, and in law, which is what I did. In partnership with the University of Louisville. We also offer the doctor of ministry program with tracks in black church studies, pastoral care and counseling and advanced practice of ministry. Our students go on to be pastors, therapists, teachers, chaplains, nonprofit leaders, community organizers, and more. If you're interested in seminary, or if you know someone who has a heart for service and gifts for ministry in the most broad sense, I'd encourage you to look into the opportunities at local seminary.

38:46 – Simon Doong

Great, thanks so much, Sandra. And we've also put a link to for everyone to learn about Louisville Seminary in the show notes for people to check out. And maybe we'll have to bring you back to talk about why seminary and why someone should go to seminary. Maybe that could be a future episode. 

38:55 - Sandra Moon

I would be happy to do that. Thank you. Alright. Well, thanks so much for being on the podcast with us today. 

39:15

This has been the matter of faith podcast brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so at faith podcast@pcusa.org. We look forward to hearing from you. See you next time.

39:31

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