Questions for the Week:
Ekama Eni, Pastor of Youth and College Ministry at St. Paul & St. Andrew United Methodist Church
I'm considering a "no phone" policy during our church's youth group gatherings. Everyone puts their phone on silent and doesn't take it out during the meeting or we all put our phones in a basket at the beginning of our time together and then get them back at the end. Is this a good idea? Or are the youth going to stop coming if we do this?
Queerfully and Wonderfully Made
00:03 – Simon Doong
Hello, and welcome to a matter of faith a presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question. Because if it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might be a matter of faith,
00:21- Lee Catoe
whether it be faith in God, faith and others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unfound, the interactive journal on Christian social justice for the Presbyterian Church USA. I am your host, Lee Cato,
00:39 – Simon Doong
And I'm your host Simon Doong. Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.
00:46 – Simon Doong
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome again to a matter of faith a presby podcast. I'm joined here by Lee Catoe. Lee, how are you doing?
00:55 – Lee Catoe
I'm doing all right, Simon. Yeah, by the time this, this podcast comes out, I will have moved to DC. So I'll be a DC resident. So hopefully all my stuff gets moved. And I am happy in my place. And I will speak that into existence, because moving is stressful. So yeah, I am right now. I'm anxious because I haven't moved. But hopefully by the time this airs, I will not be as anxious. Yeah,
01:22 – Simon Doong
Yeah. Well, prayers for you and your transition. And as you're traveling, and for anyone else out there who is moving or traveling, we pray that you all have safe travels and safe transitions as well. I know it's certainly not easy. Sometimes even just packing for a trip can seem daunting or overwhelming, let alone picking up your entire life and going to a new place.
01:45 – Lee Catoe
Yeah, and it's, I mean, it's pretty far, but then you also, yeah, you don't realize how much stuff you accumulate. And I didn't think I had a lot of stuff in general because I don't like clutter. But I have. Yeah, we have a lot of stuff. And we've had to get rid of a lot of things, a lot of goodwill runs. So that's been interesting, selling a lot of things. So yeah, it's it is very, very stressful. For like one, like, two days of an event. You know what I mean? Like, it happens so fast.
02:20 – Simon Doong
But yeah, it'll be good. It'll be good. Does that mean but it also means that there's opportunity for fun for fun things to come up like, do we like the color of the curtains? Do we want to change the color of the curtains or, you know, we have this bed you have this bedspread and it's great, but it doesn't fit the bed that is already in maybe if there's a bed already there or any furniture or anything like that. That's there. Nothing. Alright, blank canvas all fair enough. Well, sometimes it also provides an opportunity to be like, you know what, we always wanted that King Size mattress.
02:57 – Lee Catoe
Yeah, we're definitely gonna get some new pots and pans. Just because we we've always cooked in like cast iron skillets. And we've never had like, a good set of pots and pans. So we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna splurge and get some of that. So that'll be what we do. And we have like the dog, which adds a whole nother layer of things and all those kinds of things. So, so yeah, which we do have a question about pets though.
03:29 – Simon Doong
Yeah, we do. Yeah. So speaking of pets, our first question for today reads, “What are your thoughts on pets, particularly dogs being allowed in church? And especially in the sanctuary?”
03:46 – Lee Catoe
Hmm, interesting. Yeah, I so this, so if you don't know the show, if you've never seen the Vicar of Dibley, it is a it's a UK show. So it's filmed in England. And it is it aired right when women were allowed to be ordained in the Church of England. So it's a big deal. And this show came out and the star is Dawn French, and she plays Geraldine Granger in the Vicar of Dibley. And so she's the vicar of this little town called Dibley. And it's very small. And there's an episode on there where she wanted to have blessing of the animals and which is a very traditional thing and a lot of the Episcopal churches here do it and it's kind of a very traditional thing to do in in the UK like blessing the animals that provide us food and provide us all these kinds of things love and like therapy and all this kind of stuff. And a lot of the people in the village were kind of skeptical because I didn't want to have pets in the sanctuary. But then like, they remind that the vicar reminded the people that Like, at Jesus's birth, that's where, you know, animals where they are like, that is where that is what is depicted anyway, I don't know if that actually says that. But But yeah, like animals have always been a part of our tradition. And there are so many stories within the Bible about animals and about, I just think that I mean, why not? If if they're trained, and they're not disruptive, or if there's someone's therapy dog, or that a system, I mean, like, especially dogs, like, they've come such a long way and are so smart and trained. But I do think it's interesting to how do we incorporate the things that that we love the most. I mean, we have a dog, and I love him dearly. And he's been blessed before, and he's been a part of a service. And I think that's very powerful. And we don't give animals enough credit as to what they provide to us spiritually and emotionally. So I'm all for how we do that. And creative lies.
06:06 – Simon Doong
Yeah, I think creative ways and in conversation with the folks in your congregation. And then leadership, when I started attending the church that that I currently attend, I thought it was really interesting, because the sanctuary is used for so many different things other than just worship, you know, it's, it's used for a large community table style meal where anyone could walk into the off the street and be fed. So the same, because it's the largest room and it's easily accessible from from the street. So the sanctuary is already being used in so many different ways that people aren't necessarily worried about an animal coming in, and like being on the floor, not saying using the bathroom on the floor, that's not okay, but allowed to be in that space. And you know, because we've had food in there, we've had events in there. So that sort of creative spirit of using the sanctuary worship space in different ways already kind of existed. And so I showed up to church. And within the first couple weeks, I noticed, oh, there's at least two or three different people who semi frequently bring their dogs to church with them. And it's, it's their dogs that are very calm, they're very well behaved. You know, they're, they're great. They're totally fine. I had never really seen that before. And so it got me thinking like, Oh, well, why don't I see this other places, and I think it also has to come down to how protective people are of their worship space, and particularly their sanctuary. I mean, when you have carpet floors, I can understand, Oh, we don't we want to keep the carpet clean. And I get that. But there's also again, this balance that we should be thinking about is people of faith, about walking that tension, or that balance between hospitality and, and cleanliness or order or sort of protectiveness, if that makes sense. And I think that's a good thing for people to think about. because like you said, some people will need that dog for therapy, or if they're assisting them. And I think that this, this continues our conversation about thinking about who feels welcomed in church. And if someone would feel out of place, why is that? And I'm not saying the dog will feel out of place, but the person coming in with the dog may feel out of place. And I know that there are certainly congregations where they'd be like, No, no, no, no animals, no food or drink. So it does kind of depend on the culture of the congregation. But I think we can probably afford to be a little more open about having pets, and especially dogs in the sanctuary space.
08:39 – Lee Catoe
And it goes to that, like always that question of like, yeah, like, what are you elevating the actual building over? over the the people in the congregation, whoever or whatever is a part of the congregation like, is this? Yeah. Is the carpet more important? Or is it we really want to fully engage our community. And honestly, like so many communities, like pets are a huge part of people's lives, especially during this pandemic, people have relied on that companionship because they're even more so because I mean, there have been animals who have gotten COVID but I do think I do think it allows a lot more relaxed companionship as like we are always around our dog and has such a huge impact on our lives. So why wouldn't we begin to figure out you know, how to incorporate Yeah, our beloved animals into more religious rituals or our worship and things like that. I also think it's really hard for when people lose a pet. Like it is rough. It is a hard thing to do to make it and some people have to make decisions on whether to put An animal down or have to get rid of an animal because of all kinds of reasons. And, and I never understood why that is such a less than thing that that like minute like, I don't know of many. And this might be happening more and more, but I don't know of many ministers who would call someone or to make a big effort to how to ritualize putting down a pet, or how to how to frame that. And so I do think it is very important that we really think that because it's hard, I am not one of those people that I don't think many animals should have ever been domesticated. Like I don't I don't know if I mean, naturally, it wasn't meant for a dog, you know, to be just sitting on someone's lap and have all these breeds, and they just be puppy meals and all these things. I don't necessarily think that that would have naturally happened if humans hadn't intervened. But I do know that it had it did develop through companionship and relationship. And that's just how it is. And and I think there's something to that. And I think that many animals have some sort of, oh, awareness, so much so that like, there is a spirituality in there, there's a there's something in there, like, I can look at my dog. And I know like he knows what I'm thinking like, he knows how I feel. And he knows when I'm stressed. Like there's these innate things within animals, that I think our spirits are like spirit field, and we need to find ways to honor that. So I've always wondered about why we kind of lessen that relationship and that attachment. And also Fun fact, that's not a fun fact. But a fact is that's our summer, some of the more depressed and have mental health, more mental health issues than many medical professionals. Because there's not a way to there's not a lot of outreach to that, because of this decreased value in animals like that. don't have that kind of people don't out, don't reach out to that stab. But they are the most depressed people because of the amount of death and the amount of like, personal relationships, they have to deal with people who are really attached to their pets. And that's also very interesting.
12:29 – Simon Doong
Yeah. During the pandemic, I've been helping with my congregations prayers to the people, especially while things have been virtual for worship people, you know, send a prayer in either in a Facebook comment or in a, you know, in an via email. And the most common things that we get that I would read prayers about would be probably people's health. Well, actually, I should probably go like this pandemic related prayers, people's health, people's deaths, and pet deaths. If and I'm going to put a challenge out there for folks, if we are able to read a prayer request and pray for an animal that passes away, and the people that support it, why can't that animal be allowed in our space with that person during their life in worship? It doesn't have to be every Sunday. But why wouldn't that be okay? Yeah, if we're willing to pray for them when they die. So just something to think about for folks.
13:25 – Lee Catoe
Animals, I love them. Gotta love them. Well, so this next question is about something that is coming up or and isn't. I mean, it's currently like happening right now. And it is about the Olympics, Simon. So this was sent in about the Olympics, as I think a white run this is probably going to a or the Olympics might be happening. Am I getting those dates? Correct? You know, I don't remember what day they actually start. Well, we can just say, because this question says as we approach the Tokyo Olympics, but we can also say, as we are within the Tokyo Olympics,
14:08 – Simon Doong
Yeah. Oh, actually. So the Yeah, the Olympics will have started already, because they start on July 23.
14:15 – Lee Catoe
Oh, perfect. So we can say, as we are in the Tokyo Olympics are experiencing them. “There have been a number of interesting developments, which is very true. Sprinter Shikari Richardson, who won the US Olympic trials and the 100 meters was banned for one month that they're testing positive for a chemical found in marijuana, which is a banned substance for Olympic athletes. This means she can't compete and this year's Olympic Games and the 100 meter dash she says the stress of her biological mother's recent death combined with the pressure of preparing for trials led her to use the drug. Many people have spoken up that the rule that makes marijuana a banned substance is outdated and should be changed as people of faith? How do we wrestle with rules that should be changed?”
15:07 – Simon Doong
You know, I think this is a great question and a really good follow up to our conversation with Sandra moon when she was talking about the relationship between Bible, the Bible faith and the law. The reason is because this is really an example where there is a clear rule. And there's debate about whether that rule is really still applicable to today's context or our own understanding of how of how things work, if that makes sense. And I like this question because it uses Shikari Richardson's a situation as an example of where those rules represent an older way of thinking or possibly an outdated way of thinking as it says in the question, because some rules are just old fashioned and outdated. I mean, in the, in the faith based context. Previously, in the pcusa, we did not allow LGBTQ plus ordination and marriage. And we came to a realization that that was an outdated way of understanding call of understanding love and understanding relationship. And so we the rules were changed. Not everyone agreed with it, but the rules were changed. And the process of thinking about whether rules should be changed or not. I think we do need to pray for discernment. But we also need to remember that rules are to be followed. But they're not to be worshipped. And I think that there's a fine line between following rules and understanding rules and worshiping rules, because they are rules, if that makes sense. So I think in this situation, it's pretty clear that maybe eventually, the policy will change about marijuana use, it might not. I believe that in the NFL and some other professional sports organizations, they've kind of relaxed, some of their guidance and policies about marijuana use specifically. I'm not necessarily commenting on that here. But just to say, it looks like there is a trend that things are going that direction, and the Olympics has not followed that trend yet. I'm not necessarily faulting them for that. But there should be a discussion about why that may be happening, if that makes sense. What do you think Lee?
17:20 – Lee Catoe
Yeah, well, this question, I've always had a problem with like, the word outdated, like, I think I just think it's just very Miss misinformed. And specifically with and when you compare it to, like, you know, queer ordination in our church, I do think it is not very informed, but also with this specific situation that this person highlights I do think, when we're talking about convictions that are that deal with marijuana substances, I do think those are inherently like, those definitely are inherently racist. And to say that, I mean, one of the excuses for this was that it was a performance enhancement drug, which is definitely not true. When we're talking about what is classified as that. I mean, it is not performance enhancing. That is that is a fact. And so I do think that we that having those kinds of questions about weather, and it does go back to Sandra's comments about the law is that what is when the original intent of all this that that marijuana convictions are inherently racist? And what does that mean moving forward? With the Olympics? What does it mean for us as viewers of the Olympics? And that's what every rule like what are what are the what is the main basic? Why did these rules develop? Where did they develop from? who develop them? I think all these are great questions to ask as we're trying to figure out and talk about these kinds of situations. But but I do think it is important. wrestling with more than just as Sandra said, like the written word, but I mean, yeah, Who wrote it? Why Where is also something else? And to what purpose? It's an interesting and something that is as beloved as the Olympics, but the Olympics have always kind of had these very backward misinformed decisions that they make, and also on some ends allow up. It's a very weird, bizarre kind of world. I think the Olympics are but but yeah, I think the overall idea and the overall message is the fact that we can actually say that some rules have created inequities in our societies. Specifically when it comes to marijuana. People are still jail 20 years later have a conviction when we have individuals out here just smoking up and never getting caught. And and it's disproportionately affects people of color. And and I think that that is a big question. And many roles are like that. And I think that's always something that we have to ask. And as this specific pneus of like cannabis and things like that were more states are saying are passing legislation that it's going to be legalized, I think these things will change, but it shouldn't have to take. It shouldn't have to take the industry of cannabis to push a rule that has affected so many people, and is affecting Shikari Richardson. And it's not just like, it's not just marijuana. I'm just using that as an example. But I think in many ways, how do we change rules? And why should it have to only be industry or companies or cap like a capitalistic way of doing it, other than a moral way? So I think that's also something to wrestle with, when we're talking about rules and how to change them. I think industry has a place in that. But I think there's a both and
21:16 – Simon Doong
Yeah, definitely. And I also just want to say, I think we need to give some props to Shikari Richardson for the way that she's handled all of this. If you followed if you follow the stories. I mean, she pretty much she just accepted the Olympic, the Olympic Committee's, you know, ruling that she would be disqualified or banned, which meant that she wouldn't be able to compete in the 100 meters, there was a hope that she might be able to still compete on the four by 100 meter relay for the US in the Olympics. Because that the timing of when that event would be run would be a little bit later in the games, potentially outside of the one month ban policy. But they also went with a policy that said because she was disqualified from the game from the trials like her her result was sort of thrown out. She is not among one of the eligible athletes to be picked from to be on the four by 100 meter relay. And despite all of that, she just said, I went out here and I ran Well, I've got I'm young, I've got more races in me, I'm gonna go and do my best in those and just keep moving forward. Which I think takes a lot of courage and just it takes a lot of guts to be able to kind of remain steadfast and committed even amidst frustration around rulings and policies that as you said, Lee, maybe misinformed. And so I just and when there is real, will not this isn't an injustice. But when there is an injustice, like people being jailed, not everyone has the luxury of being able to just be like, oh, I'll just keep moving forward. But I do think that there is something to be said for the character that Chicago Richardson is shown throughout this, this situation.
23:02 – Lee Catoe
So if we have any sway Olympics, get it together, let's get it together. But I also think that this is this specific question. And when we're talking about marijuana, I also think that as people a fate, that's something we are going to be wrestling with to I mean, people are faith, wrestled with alcohol and, and all these kinds of things when we're talking about prohibition and all that. It was very religiously pushed in some ways. And so yeah, I do wonder about where the church plays and all that. So that's just putting that out there. But Olympics, you need to get it together. Chicago Richardson, you're awesome. And you should never have had to go through this and hope you get all the deals and all the things that you deserve. So not sure if you're Listen, but it's out there. So.
24:07 – Simon Doong
And so joining us today is a very special guest. We have Ekama Eni, the pastor of youth and college ministry at St. Paul and St. Andrew United Methodist Church in New York. And though she works at a Methodist Church, I know that you're a Presbyterian at heart and we're really glad to have you with us Ekama. How are you doing?
24:32 – Ekama Eni
I'm good today. The sun is shining. We are alive. We are awake. What more could you ask for?
24:40 – Simon Doong
Amen. I like some sunshine. So Ekama a question for you for today. It’s semi-serious but also kind of a fun question. So it reads “I'm considering a no phone policy during our churches youth group gatherings. everyone puts their phone on silent and doesn't take it out during the meeting. Or we all put our phones in a basket at the beginning of our time together, and then get them back at the end. Is this a good idea? Or are they youth going to stop coming? If we do this? What do you think?”
25:22 – Ekama Eni
It don't think it's a bad idea? I think that technology and young people is tenuous, and like weird. But it isn't. I think it is an unreasonable experience of exploitation. To say that kids like won't use their phones will eventually come pose I think, like, as an adult, as a leader of like young people. I would never say like, y'all can't use your phones. Um, realistically, like, I'm thinking of, like, multiple times, I'll close like, I'm like, kid, like, yo, like your phones a bit of a distraction? And the most common answer is my mom is texting me. And it's usually true. Like, it's usually true. Which is also annoying, because mom knows your youth group. Mommy knows, you're like, your mom, she should write like, your parents usually knows where you are. Like, I think that's one of the biggest distractors of phones, this parents, I think that Yeah, like at the end of the day, kids, young people, we have to recognize that one of their main tools for engagement with one another is their phones, they text each other. They're doing old tic Tock situations they're on Snapchat with that's how they learn the news, right? That's how they're up to date with what's going on around them. So like the expectation like, yes, what's up, like max an hour and a half? It'd be nice if they weren't on their phones the whole time. But it happens, I think that for the most part, if they're engaged, and if they are interested in being there, they're not going to be on their phones the whole time. Right? So it's like you've cultivated a space, where they're comfortable, and they're interested in being there. They're not going to be swiping through tic tocs all day, or like, the whole time. And I think like, the second part of your question was like, Well, you've stopped coming. If we do this. If that's the reason that you they're kind of stopped coming, then we have to talk about what's happening. Again, like, if like, like hits, we'll let you know. Like, if they're interested in being and for the most part, they just not gonna come and it won't be about a phone. If it is there a bigger fish to fry? Yeah. And I think also, like, one thing that I've experienced or like tried to do is make the, like, have phone activities. So if they can also like, see, if you like, as a leader can like see the phone as a tool for good? not evil? It'll work. Yeah, like, I've as a youth, many moons ago. I have been texted by youth director stop texting. Get off your phone. Right. But yeah, like it's not like phones, phones are not that issue of youth and youth because they can't be. That's like my, what's coming to me at the forefront of question.
28:26 – Simon Doong
I appreciate that. You said, if a phone policy is going to be the thing that breaks the camel's back, and your youth stop coming, it's really not the phone policy. That's the issue. It's the it's an issue with the quality or content or something that's going on within the youth group already that needs to be addressed. What are some of those examples of the activities that would involve a phone that you think are creative or just get Yeah, that youth could do during their time together for youth group.
29:02 – Ekama Eni
Something like a Bible quiz. Something really easy. And like, for anyone that's like in school, like in school right now. You like you'll do like a check in or a quiz and like you got a phone number, or like, download this little app, right? And so it like will calculate all your points and see who wins Bible Jeopardy, right? So you don't have to if you're bad at math, it will sort that out for you. There's lots of really incredible faith and theology related content on tik tok right now. I'm really not, that's not my ministry. I'm not into I'm too old to like learn a new social media platform. However, there's lots of really great content and I think sharing that is always gonna be like, let's watch a tick tock together or let's make a tech talk together. I think that being creative and exploring ways that other folks are like creatively using their phones. Something that's never dentistry.
30:03 – Lee Catoe
Hey, Ekama. My voice hasn't been heard yet. But thank you for doing this. I've always wondered because this was something that and, and the youth group Well, I wouldn't say when I was in the youth group because they didn't have phones, but I have nephews now that have phones, and they'll start kind of getting involved in that. And it almost seems like some youth leaders may be like threatened, that attention is not going to be upon them because of these phones. Do you see that in some ways, ask that because I just feel like that kind of culture is within ministry a lot. It's like, oh, the attention is not going to be on me. And what I'm saying whether it's that's the message, but the person?
30:56 – Ekama Eni
Well, as a leader of youth, you will never be the star of the show. And I think that there are some folks in ministry that don't get that yet. Right. All right. I think that's a very specific orientation to take when thinking about they're not paying attention to me, because like is that really what's happening is that they're not paying attention to me, or that the material the things that I am giving them, feeding them imploring to them is not interesting. Or I don't know what they want, right. I haven't asked them what they're interested in it like, I haven't engaged with them. I haven't gotten to know them yet. So they're not again, like, I'm giving them something that they don't want. So like, Is it about you as the leader? I hate that like, probably.
31:49 – Lee Catoe
Yeah, yeah. And it's just something that I've always heard. And I will be the first one to say, like, youth is not my calling. And so I don't have a lot of experience working with youth have experienced working with young adults, like campus ministry, which we can have the same conversation about this with that that group of people too, but I do hear that a lot. It's, it's like, well, they're just not listening to me, or it's just very like, me centered.
32:20 – Ekama Eni
The kids aren't listening to me, but like, Are you saying anything? Right? Like, that's? Yeah, I think, yeah, he could probably say, say the same thing for like, preaching, or like, like, other ways that like, someone is like a, quote unquote, center of attention, right. As again. Yeah. I think like particular phone policies when they're like, in church flavored or related things, right? Like, what it like, at the end of the day, like, what would be the purpose for painting phones? Like before, we had, I think, some of increased access, we have to like, a lot of this technology. There were other like, there was, there were other reasons for people to not be paying attention or to like lack critical engagement, right? Like, self like cell phones, I'm thinking even like, within like the context of worship, like, I'd be like going in churches and like seeing the bulletin, like, please put away your phone, like an adult. I don't even put your phones away on planes. And again, like folks, were paying attention before that. So like, I think, yeah, it has to be, what is the purpose of banning a cell phone or having no phone policy? Yeah, zero tolerance is not for everyone. And it's not for every situation.
33:42 – Simon Doong
But both of you brought up that just because someone has the phone out, doesn't mean they're intentionally or implying disrespect to you as the youth group leader. There are very real reasons someone may have their phone out. And if and again, if you're losing, if you feel like you're constantly losing the battle to the phone, then maybe it's something that you should try to change on as far as your programming or your delivery. Of course, there are some people who are just wedded to their phones and unhealthy ways. And that's a, but that's a little bit of a different topic than sort of everyone's always on their phone. Okay, that then maybe that's a programmatic issue.
34:29 – Ekama Eni
And I think that also particularly like thinking about youth, they know how to be without their phones. I think particularly like if you're enrolled in full time, public education, and you're used to doing standardized testing, right? You know, how to put your phone away. You know, the consequences for like, having your phone out. limits and unnecessary are allowed. In all like youth youth groups shouldn't be like, standardized testing, right? Like it shouldn't be I don't know. Like, I don't even know if schools have no phone. It's out policies anymore. Like they did when I when I was like, in school, but only like teachers that were horrible took your phone away from me or class?
35:15 – Lee Catoe
Yeah. I do think also that we don't give youth enough credit. And that way they can multitask just like anybody else. It's like, yeah, very more than I can. My my nephew is, I mean, it's not necessarily a youth age. He's like 10, but can like listen to me talk to him while he's on his phone. And he might be doing three different things on this song. So I don't I think we don't give youth enough credit that they're also listening.
35:52 – Ekama Eni
They’re like actual people. Right with like, again, skills and like lots of polls in the back. A lot of them like are unhealthy and like feed in so just like how we expect you to like do like young people, like do a lot of stuff. Right? Like, but yeah, like, I think Yeah, I can like be like a stroke homeowners policy around certain things. It I think it feeds into like treating youth less than?
36:23 - Lee Catoe
Yeah, there are people too. They're just Sure. Yeah, so our kids even younger than us. So I like that. But I cannot thank you for for being here. And thank you for enlightening us. When it comes to youth. And if there are any youth people out there, think about these words, youth are people to hashtag youth are people too. And, yeah, thank you so much for being with us, for having me.
37:04 – Lee Catoe
So we are going to transition to our resource roundup segment. And we're gonna kind of stay on the, the youth theme. Because there is a great book out there that I want everyone to get if you're a youth leader. Or if you're a youth out there that is, you know, struggling with coming to terms with who you are, or just trying to figure it out who God made you to be. There's a great, great resource out there called queer fully and wonderfully made a guide for LGBTQ plus Christian teens. And it is edited by Lee think. And there's a introduction by Jennifer Knapp, who is a wonderful musician, and leader in the church. And it's just a great resource to have about asking questions about who are you asking questions about gender? Can you be queer and be a Christian? It has questions about parents or coming out in school. And congregations. This has questions for congregations like how to, to look for places that are affirming and welcoming. It also has questions about, you know, queer culture, and all those kinds of things. And so this is a great resource to have around, if you're a youth leader. Or if you're a queer youth out there, and you're just looking for something to help you out a little bit. I know when I was young, I wish I had something like this just to kind of guide me or I wish my youth leaders has something like this to just kind of guide me to just, you know, ask the right questions. So again, it is carefully and wonderfully made. We've mentioned it a few times on the podcast, but we want to give it its due diligence and we really wanted to give it a highlight on here carefully and wonderfully made a guide for LGBTQ Christian teens. And yeah, get it you can order it. It's a copyright and published by beaming books you can get on their website or any other place you get your books just to support local book shops. So again, check it out. And again, your loved and the beloved.
39:33 – Simon Doong & Lee Catoe
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39:48 – Simon Doong & Lee Catoe
See you next time, y'all. Thanks, everyone for listening to Episode 23 can you believe it right 23 episodes. Don't forget to subscribe using your favorite podcast platform. And don't forget to leave us a review. It really does help us bring more content to you about faith and church live and all the things that Simon and I talked about. So don't forget to leave us a review. We will catch you next time.