Episode 36: HALLOWEEN Extravaganza & Children Can Handle The Truth

CORRECTION: “Descended into hell” not Lord’s Prayer - but Apostles Creed.

Questions for the Week:

• Do you believe in ghosts?
• Halloween is an interesting subject in the church. Some churches and faith communities swear that Christians should not celebrate or participate in Halloween. Other churches love Halloween festivities and actively hold events for it. Why do you think this is the case and will it ever change?

Special Guest:
Michael W. Waters
Founder and Lead Pastor of the Abundant Life African Methodist Episcopal Church in Dallas, TX & award-winning author, activist, and social commentator

Guest Question:
In the church, we often don't know how to talk about tough issues, especially with children. We either assume they can't handle the truth or that they don't have any real power to make change so we don't engage them. How do we engage children about tough issues and empower them to think more and responsibly take action? Are there examples of media (books, films, arts, etc.) that do this?

Resource Roundup:
Liberty’s Civil Rights Road Trip
For Beautiful Black Boys Who Believe in a Better World
Something in the Water: A 21st Century Civil Rights Odyssey

For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website

Transcript

00:03 – Simon Doong

Hello and welcome to a matter of faith a Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question, because if it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might be a matter of faith,

00:21 – Lee Catoe

whether it be faith in God, faith in others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unbound the interactive journal on Christian social justice for the Presbyterian Church USA. I am your host, Lee Catoe,

00:39 – Simon Doong

and I'm your host Simon Doong.

00:41 – Lee Catoe

Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.

00:46 – Simon Doong

Well, hello, everyone. Welcome back to a matter of faith a Presby podcast. I am so excited to be here today with with Lee as we're going to get ready to talk about some spookiness today, Lee, how are you?

01:02 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, we're coming up on that holiday Halloween. And it's actually one of my favorite holidays. And I know that might be controversial in the church. But it is like DC I think is kind of known for Halloween decorations apparently that I didn't really realize that and you walk around the neighborhood and people are decked out I mean, spiders are crawling on the buildings. There's a cute one it's like wrapped up like the doors wrapped up like a mummy and like as are appearing out of the little crack and we started watching the Halloween movies and yeah, Halloween Town, Disney throwing it that Double, double toil and trouble. the Olsen twins. That's an old one and hocus pocus and all those kinds of things. So yeah, it's it's that time of year.

01:55 – Simon Doong

Yeah, I I love Halloween as well. I love I love costumes and getting dressed up. I love the candy. I love walking from one place to another seeing how people have you know, decked out their their homes or their porches or their sanctuaries in some cases. Yeah. So it's always a good time. And so to the folks out there we wish you a Happy Halloween, I guess. Right phrase. Yeah, very equivalent. Yeah. So I guess just happy Halloween to everyone and be safe.

02:28 – Lee Catoe

Yeah. Good. Say be say get safe, be safe, and be safe. And but also, yeah, enjoy it. Be smart with your costume choices. Yeah.

02:43 – Simon Doong

Speaking of spookiness Lee, we have a question written in that is that reads “Do you believe in ghosts?” Well, Lee, do you believe in ghosts?

02:55 – Lee Catoe

Well, we sometimes we do say the Father, Son of the Holy Ghost. And a lot of people have stopped using that. And I'm not really sure why. Because I do think it's kind of analogous to Halloween. But I do. I mean, there are I mean, I believe in spirits. And I believe in, you know, that there are there are things that we can explain, like, I mean, there are so many instances like you know, and the Bible where things like happen that are kind of mysterious and spiritual. And I mean, God's Spirit was over the waters and like, there was like a definite definite physicalness to, to the spirit and OA and, and there are moments like, in in my life, you know, I was really close to my grandmother. And, you know, there are there are some moments where I will get a whiff of how she smelled, you know, like it, I mean, it kind of come out of nowhere, and she had a very distinct smell, she was a smoker, and she wore the same kind of perfume and like, all these things mix together. And that's just how she smelled. And every once in a while I'll catch a hold of that. Or like, sometimes I've even been in places to where you feel like something, you know, like, you feel something there and, and so I do think that there is something to it. I'm a firm believer in, you know, a spiritual illness that interacts with humanity. Like why wouldn't you you know, I mean, our our Bible is talks about angels and our Bible even talks about demons and, and all those kinds of things. And so I definitely think there's something something they are now I will say, like I've never seen like, No, I've never seen something, you know, it's always been like a feeling or it's been like another sense, or I've even heard you know, like, I thought I heard like one of my best friends growing up or, you know, things like that. That kind of happened that you can't really explain So sure, sure, I think there, you know, I think there's thing and people throughout, you know, throughout history have believed that,

05:08 – Simon Doong

yeah, I likewise, believe in the Holy Spirit. But when it comes to thinking about spirits, I guess her go says they are, I have a little bit of a harder time with that not in the sense that I'm like, oh, that could never exist. I just sort of like to think that I have felt the presence of spirits, especially it like you were saying, you feel suddenly you just feel close to someone who isn't alive. Or you walk in a graveyard. And it feels like there's someone there or something there, there's or there's an energy of presence. I don't know if that means that I necessarily believe in spirits all the time, or like things being haunted, per se, though I do love a good ghost tour. It was fun. So I guess I'm kind of on the fence about it. I don't want to make it sound like I only believe in the happy ghosts, even though that sort of is what I'm saying. Because I do think that there are, as you were saying in the Bible, instances where there's talk of demons and evil spirits and things being cast out. And so I'm not saying any of that, make folks feel afraid or superstitious, per se, I understand that there are times where we can't exactly explain things. And there may be scientific explanations behind a lot of it. But if we believe in the Holy Spirit, who's to say that there aren't other spirits out there? I don't know how that fits in with Presbyterian polity, and theology. But I do think it's interesting to think about, you know, in different cultures have different ways of, of communicating or recognize the name and communicate, but recognizing, yeah, those are spirits. And that's a whole debate, what's the difference between a soul and a spirit. And so I think it gets complicated, real quick, once you really start thinking about it.

07:05 – Lee Catoe

Yeah. And it's also I mean, I think about the movie Coco, you know, like, the Day of the Dead, and, and many like, Hispanic cultures, and, and that is like, and, and that is real, you know, like, that is something that is that's taken very seriously. And that is a day, you know, like that you do again, me and, and, and be in communion with your ancestors and and in our, in our polity, it says, a great cloud of witnesses. And we always talk about this great cloud of witnesses throughout time. And that is something that evokes, like the spirit of our ancestors are here with us, and, and are among us, and in many, like African American traditions, that is something that is being held on to and even in the time of Jesus, like Romans had, you know, like, like these little altars to their family members. And the family is obviously very centered in a lot of traditions. But I do think, and I and I thought about this the other day when we talked about kind of this a little bit, but I do think in many ways, like westernized faith and religion and white NIS has kind of cut us off from exploring this more, what in faith traditions, it's always been, you know, like, that's not that's not of God, or that's something that has, that deals with, like, the realm of evil or whatever, if you're talking about ghosts, or spirits or anything like that. And so I do think that there is an element of that, it's like, there's this, you know, like, like white supremacist culture and westernized religion, that that has kind of taken that element of mysticism away, that element of spirituality away. And so, I think this is a great question, because it really does. If you've, if you've really been thinking about this during this time, and everybody does in some way, I think give yourself permission to kind of think and that way, like how, you know, like, there, there's history of mystics, in our traditions, the desert mother and father's, the Gnostics which can be kind of problematic in some ways, but they were very, you know, very interested in the spiritual illness and, and the mysticism of fate, and that world and so I, I'm all about it, and I'm all about being open to and would never, you know, dismiss someone that says that, you know, they've encountered something or, or I've had some kind of spiritual experience like that.

09:50 – Simon Doong

Right. And I think it speaks to this interesting intersection or distinction between faith and spirituality, but also So between spirituality and practicality, if that makes sense. And so yeah, I encourage folks to think about where where you land on. On this topic. Do you believe in ghosts? Do you believe in spirits? Why or why not? Have you ever felt the presence of something that you couldn't explain? Yeah. Or are there traditions or practices that you've been a part of that encourage some sort of communication with? With supernatural with spirits with ghosts, different ways to describe it? 

10:34 – Lee Catoe

Yeah. Well, we're gonna keep on the Halloween thing. Because, you know, that's what, that's what this is. And so we got another question about Halloween, because Halloween has been an interesting subject in the church. It really has specifically, I mean, where I'm from, you don't normally celebrate it, if you're really involved in church. But some churches and faith communities swear that Christians should not celebrate or participate in Halloween. Other churches love Halloween festivities and actively hold events for it. Why do you think this is the case? And will it ever change?

11:15 – Simon Doong

Well, I don't think it'll ever entirely change. You know, some churches see Halloween as like devil worship, devil worship, or it's some pagan tradition that can never align with faith, which is very interesting, then, because then other churches and congregations just sort of see Halloween as a festive occasion. It's an opportunity to be in community with people to do something fun to be a little creative. And that's what my favorite part about it is. That's what I think I think it's a great opportunity to do all of those things. And in this, in some ways, similar to Christmas, how, you know, we talk about Santa Claus. And we talk about, you know, see viewing Christmas, from the perspective of a child and the joy of a child, I think there is something about experiencing Halloween that encourages some inner child like NISS that we have in each of us. And let's also be honest, some adults really love throwing Halloween parties that are very adults, and they're fun, and they're great. And that's okay, too. But I don't know if it will ever entirely change because there are, there are congregations churches, people who will sort of always keep this devil worship mentality. Even as Halloween, I think it's become super mainstream. There's always going to be a few who will refuse to see it any any differently. What do you think leave?

12:43 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, and I totally Oh, well, the one thing I do get about Halloween, it is very commercial. And I do get that if that is something that you don't want to live into. Because it is has a very, like centered ideal of capitalism within it like it is very much a capitalistic holiday, it's just, that's just kind of how it is, I totally get that. Like that is if that is not your thing. And if that is something you want to speak out against, I think that is obviously valid. And a lot of waste happens during Halloween, I mean, cheap costumes, candy wrappers, like when we're talking about environmentally sustainability, all these kinds of things, all those kinds of critiques of the holiday, totally get that in Christmases, same way, very, has become very a capitalistic kind of thing. But when it comes to the idea, you know, of like, it's pagan, and it's like, all these kinds of stuff. For one, like a lot of our Christian traditions are based off of pagan rituals, and the Roman Empire. All these kinds of things, and pagan has often been seen as a negative thing. And really, it was just someone who didn't practice the religion he did. Or it was like someone who like, yeah, they were just labeled the other through that and so but a lot of our traditions, a lot of pagan traditions have been integrated within the traditions of Christianity, but but for Halloween, yeah, I don't think it'll change. And in fact, it's been kind of repurposed by a lot of Christian places. And if people have never heard about judgment houses, or hail houses, you know how you would go to a haunted house during Halloween, I would never go because I'm terrified of that kind of stuff. I'm more of a wholesome Halloween celebrator saying no, I don't like it. I like the the wholesomeness of it all, but these hell houses in judgment houses were set up as a alternative from a haunted house to go to and experience a salvific experience to be saved. So there will be a scenario a few people would die and you would go to each room and they would act these things out, and one of the people who died was not saved and went to hell. And so you would go into a hotel room and you know, whoever was like in chains or like hanging up on the wall, and the devil would be there, and then the other person would be saved. And then at the end, you know, that person would be embraced by Jesus, and then you wouldn't be invited to be saved. And if you can't tell, I've said this spiel a lot. Because, because this is, I mean, this is what we did growing up. But we would also go to people would also go to haunted houses, too, it was kind of a both AM. And some people are like that, too. They'll probably both but but it's been interesting to see the the kind of counter narratives that people use, instead of scaring you just to scare you, they'll just scare you to get saved. That is, that was kind of the mentality. So but I do think that there is this automatic correlation when you're talking about spirits, you know, it does kind of go straight to the devil and Satan and but in reality, Halloween was like is based off of All Hallows Eve, like where you did honor your ancestors and the spirits of the dead and, and I never really understood, I was just like, you know, Jesus was also raised from the dead. And even in the what is it the Lord's Prayer, we say he descended into hell. Like, there is some element of this interaction between you know, and hail as has never been kind of described in the Bible as is depicted in the real world. But yeah, I don't think it'll change. In fact, it's probably getting worse. But I do agree with the Simonet doesn't it does kind of it does kind of like a dilute the chance to be creative and dress up and not take yourself seriously and have a good time. And they have that childlike way of doing something. Our church always just had a fall festival. That was our kind of compromise. We didn't have Halloween festival, we had a fall festival, but people would dress up. And, you know, you'd bob for apples and snort would be everywhere. It was disgusting. But thinking back on it. I was like, how gross is that? Like we were all like in the same water.

17:26 – Simon Doong

Not COVID safe. That's for sure.

17:28 – Lee Catoe

I was not COVID safe. But But yeah, I do think Halloween is always that. That complicated question in churches.

17:36 – Simon Doong

I appreciate something that you've mentioned that I hadn't really thought about is the fact that I think also people can associate Halloween sort of with this, like, scary, terrifying, fearful, which some of it can be like, oh, like, like, I still don't really like going through the haunted maze and getting chased by a guy with a chainsaw at the end. I don't think I ever will. Some people really like that though. It's just like a fun thrill. Or like when someone pops out at you and they're dressed as a you know, a decapitated dude skeleton thing. They'll totally get where some people wouldn't like that and find that be like, You know what, I don't need to associate like a holiday or a tradition with that. I totally get it. But then on the flip side, like you were saying, there are other elements of where people have taken faith and done things that are very terrifying, very fearful, very scary. Is that really all that different? And I recognize that that's different than just paying to go to a cornfield, where you walk through and it's a little spooky, and then someone chases you with a chainsaw. But yeah, there is a point there to be made about who is doing the scaring and what is the what is the point of fear in that? Because I don't think Halloween hallows eve necessarily is always about fear. We just in a more capitalistic way have said, Oh spookiness. Yeah, you know, let's, let's make some things that are scary. Because the faith community in church has done some very scary things. So I'm not saying who's to judge. But just to put that out there as a comparison for people to think about I think is really interesting.

19:17 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, I saw that. I mean, yeah. And then, like I said before, like we would go to these judgment houses, but also, I mean, my family put on a haunted house. This is like, we had a haunted house. And the money went to the fire department because it was all volunteer fire department kind of thing. And so but we would do both. And they dressed us up, we laid we heated and scared people and people paid to do that. And like you were saying they just did that just for the thrill. But on the other side, yeah, this church was scaring you to think that like if you drank or you smoked hoped or you did something and you weren't say they scared the hell out of you to get saved because, and that for me, and my belief, like as a, you know, as a person of faith within this Presbyterian tradition, that's not very healthy. That's not a healthy theology to kind of portray. And so I'd much rather go to a haunted house just to get scared just to get scared, you know about about something that I know is not real. But yeah, I think that is a very interesting dynamic to think about during this year, because those things exist. And a lot of people don't know about that. But 1000s of people go to these things. And it is, it is really amazing to see the amount of people that go and how long they last. And a lot of people don't realize it, but it's not just in the south, I'll go ahead and say that there are many of them. It's everywhere that these hell houses and judgment houses are in. And so I just really wanted to lift that up to buy Yeah, why not have fun? And do the wholesome Halloween? You know, Casper?

21:13 – Simon Doong

Yeah, it can be. And the thing is that I think also, if you immediately associate Halloween or something like that with devil worship, or as you were saying with hell, I think that that actually also speaks to there not being enough nuanced conversation about really, what is the devil? What is hell? How what, what are our understandings of what those things are, how they may or may not manifest? You know, there's a conversation there about understandings of what these things are. That if you only if you're only ever going to see it as like, you know, some people say it's fire some people say it's ice. Some people say the devil looks like this. Other people say the devil looks like that. Suddenly, we just have all of these negative. I'm not saying the devil is good. I'm not saying that. But we have this very particular idea of what any of that looks like.

22:04 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, we personify it, when it's so much more than that. Right? The devil is so much more than just a person. And I will also say and I said this at the beginning, that the devil can also manifest into people, people's costuming, when you are in blackface, when you are dressed, to make fun of someone's culture, when you are appropriating, when you are anything of that nature, that you are degrading and or dehumanizing another human being, but how you're dressing up. And you're being pretty explicit about that. This day and time that should not have to be said, but it needs to be said because it's going to happen, and it will happen, it will continue to happen. But the thing is, it's like y'all know that's wrong. And that's just and Halloween is that space where it happens. It's where those pictures are taken that come up later on, and you see it and so do some work to we can have a whole different conversation about how Halloween has perpetuated racial stereotypes and white supremacy. Throughout its capitalistic ventures, but that's just the kind of the tip of the iceberg there, too.

23:20 – Simon Doong

Yeah. So I guess moral of the story, Halloween, maybe not so bad. But also understand the different ways that people come to Halloween, people understand how to, I guess, participate in Halloween. And if you are participating, again, be safe. Please don't appropriate anyone's culture, or, you know, be offensive in any of those ways. And enjoy yourself and make sure your kids are safe. 

23:48 – Lee Catoe

Yes, Happy Halloween.

24:00 – Lee Catoe

Well, this week, we are welcoming a very special guest to the podcast to respond to one of our questions. We are welcoming Michael W. Waters to the podcast. Welcome, Michael it’s great to have you here with us. 

24:18 – Michael Waters

I'm really honored. Thank you so much. 

24:21 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, and Michael is the founder and lead pastor of the abundant life African Methodist Episcopal Church in Dallas, Texas, and award winning author, activist and social commentator. And yeah, again, thank you for being here. 

24:32 – Michael Waters

Thank you.

24:34 – Simon Doong

And Michael, one of the reasons we're so excited to have you on is because we have this this question that I think you'll help be able to help us respond to and think through. So the question reads “in the church, we often don't know how to talk about tough issues, especially with children. We either assume they can't handle the truth, or that they don't have any real power to make So we don't engage them, how do we engage children about tough issues? And empower them to think more and to responsibly take action? Are there examples of media, books, films, arts, etc, that do this?”

25:16 – Michael Waters

I appreciate the question. And I actually think that the issue of engaging tough subject matters not simply an issue of how we engage children, but how we engage it as adults, adults in the church don't do a particularly good job, in my opinion of dealing with heart subject matter. And if we don't do it, then it's impossible for us to create an atmosphere that will allow children to do the same. So I think the first line item that we have to consider is how we as a church in general are handling of the very difficult and harrowing issues of our day and whether or not we're really to look at them with clear eyes. When it comes to children, I think some of the testing that we are seeking to provide for them may be a cover for the garden and protecting that we're seeking to provide ourselves. So firstly, own self be true, I think if we are true, and if the truth sets us free, then we are then free to co labor to partner with our children, as we engage the subject matters. There's so much that is so critical for young people to engage today, there are many existential crises that are before us. And that's not hyperbole. I mean, the issue of the climate is an existential crisis. When you look at gun violence, when you look at all natures of violence, when you look at what's happening in democracy, and voting rights, these are things that are of existential concern. And so it is paramount that we share them with children. And I do think that there are resources that are readily available, that will help in doing so I think there are a number of, of children's books in particular, that attempt to tackle these conversations, or at least introduce these ideas to young people. at a very early, very early age. Some of the more popular titles that people are are considering are books like anti racist baby by Dr. King, which is a very interesting way to introduce the youngest of our children to anti racism, there's some work that I hope will dialogue together today about that I have attempted to create that I think helps in that regard. There's there are a number of things that celebrate the the beauty of humanity, in all of its shapes and forms that I think are, are readily available books about black hair, that are popularize a wonderful book, about indigenous water protectors that recently came out. And so I think they're the books are in abundance of what we have to fight against, in some circles is this interesting debate about critical race theory that I think is a failed debate. Because many of those who are pushing back against it don't even really understand what it truly is. But also, we failed to tell the two children the truth, I think, at the end of the day, children are best served, if we tell them the truth, even if they have to wrestle with it. wrestling with the truth is an opportunity for growth that we should give to our children, as we stand beside him and go along with him.

28:34 – Lee Catoe

And it's also found it so interesting, when I hear you know, like children can't handle a lot of a lot of things like they can't handle the truth. They can't handle the realities of the world when they're experiencing the realities of the world. A lot of them are. And I remember growing up, I grew up not with a lot of money. And so we were surrounded. We were poor, and everybody else around us was poor, and the things we went through and the things kids go through that I think that, you know, they're experiencing it in their own ways. And so it's so interesting to hear like the complete opposite. And mostly it's from white privileged individuals that are I mean, I lived in Tennessee for a long time and that school board meeting that made headlines where we don't want you, you know, controlling our kids minds and stealing away our kids childhoods and all these kinds of things. And it was mainly privileged white folks saying those things when there are so many kids that are experiencing a lot of different hardships and so much stuff. And so it's just so interesting. It really is not interesting, but it's just really sad that that is the counter narrative of, of not wanting to teach the truth in our schools. I wasn't taught the truth in my school either.

30:00 – Michael Waters

I think that circles back to what I was attempting to say as well is that I think some of our guardedness and sharing with children is a fact that we would have to confront it first. And so instead of confronted ourselves, not only are we pulling a veil, over our children's eyes, but we're trying to keep the veil over i Our eyes as well. Because if we if we look at the truth of what's before us, then we have to take responsibility for it. And so it's better to operate in a level of distance or ignorance than to actually have to take responsibility for some of the things that are before us. But you're absolutely right, my wife and I are blessed with four children. And I am amazed by what they have experienced just within the last two years. I mean, just in the last two years, the images that they have been bombarded with the experiences that they have had to be separated from family and friends because of a global pandemic, to bear witness to tyranny on the very steps of the US Capitol, and a riot with gallows on the Capitol grounds, the countless number of black men, women and children who have been failed to police brutality, so many hashtags, so many names, the issues in our climate, from wildfires to hurricanes to a winter storm that we experienced here in Texas, where I'm located, that, you know, knocked out power. And unfortunately, people died unnecessarily, because of that tragedy. And for all of that to happen practically at the same time. Is is amazing. But our children have asked very critical questions with regards to each one of those issues and more. And I think it has given them a level of wisdom and understanding of the world that will do them well, as they come of age. And as they begin to tackle these issues head on. Because at the end of the day, I do believe that it is young people, their genius, their brilliance, their courage, that will lead us forward into a better day. But it's now that we should plant the seeds that will spring forth we pray in now and in years to come that will help them do this. I'm also fascinated as a student of history, how many of our great leaders presidents we celebrate, really had their transformational moments while they were still children, when they really came into an understanding of what was going on in the world and really gained the passion to be a part of the change, and even how many young people over the course of history have actually been at the leading edge of change. And so in many ways, it's almost as if the church in particular, is cutting off our nose to spite our face by not investing more in the brilliance of children, because at the end of the day, I think that they will have the answers, in fact do have the answers to bring us to a better place.

33:08 – Simon Doong

So we'll get give you a chance to shout out shout out some of your your books a little later on. But I did want to ask this question because you are the author of two illustrated children's books that talk about issues of gun violence, issues of race, and living in today's society. And so when you were working on putting those books together, and in collaboration also with with with the artists and the publisher, how did you go about putting it together in a way that recognizes the complexity of the issues, but without necessarily being a being a without the content itself? being something that would maybe make a child afraid if that makes sense, and showing them that it is possible to have a conversation about these issues? Through the power of the book medium?

33:59 – Michael Waters

Sure. And I appreciate the question, a great deal of my work really rises up from personal experience. And I will testify that I had no ambition of being a children's book author. That was not something that I was seeking, but to the privilege of parenting, co parenting with my wife of seeking to empower and uplift our own children. They're just things that came before us. They're required a response. And so the children's books that I've written, some that have been published, others that are before publishers now really have been born out of our experience wrestling with these very same subject matters and bringing them ultimately to the public because I know many others are wrestling as well. You know, we're not the only black parents, parents in general, but in particular black parents who've had to talk to our black children about why this person was killed by a police officer. I think it was really a challenge for us. Our youngest daughter, because in school, these persons were identified as helpers. That was her first name for them, right? That's usually what schools do. These are the persons who are helpers. Why are the helpers killing so many people in our community? That's an interesting point of wrestling for a young person, right? Given the context of our ministry, we minister in the urban center, in the midst of abject poverty and unfortunately, a multiplicity of oppressions caused by past and current legacies, legacies of white supremacy. These are questions that our children asked us as we were driving around, why is it that on this side of town, there's an abundance of restaurants and parks, in movie theaters, and, and all these types of enjoyable spaces. But when we come over to this side of town, you know, at the time where we lived in and we're serving, those things appear to disappear, we don't understand that. Why is it when we pass this freeway that houses change, and we'll be going this side, the houses are not built as well. But that, interestingly enough, invites conversations about redlining in a way that children can understand it. And so again, I do appreciate the nuance, the need to articulate concerns in a way that young people can grasp them. But I wholly disagree, that it is imperative that we shield him, I think as soon as they are of age to ask, we have the responsibility to respond. And that's, that's at the end of the day. So a lot of a lot of my books, frankly, rise from our experience as a family of the things that we've encountered the things that we've wrestled with the things that we have talked about. And again, it felt like others were having these conversations, maybe without the resources that were available to help them do so with greater integrity.

37:01 – Lee Catoe

I wonder, have you had many adults I mean, I'm assuming like, if someone is like, you know, I have suggested some of your books to family members, I've suggested some of your books to some friends of mine, particularly those who have biracial children. And that in many cases, like my white family, not knowing how to have a conversation with their, their biracial son, about about the police and things like that. And so I wonder how many conversations you've had with adults that I've learned, maybe didn't have a clue about redlining or about the conversation. I know, in my personal experience, of offering your books to others, they learned so much from them. I know they're cater, they're the kind of cater to kids, but I've even seen adults learn from your books as well.

38:00 – Michael Waters

I appreciate first, you gifting and inviting others to engage those texts. And the amazing thing is that there have been a good number of adults who have read the book, I think the most fascinating thing for my book for beautiful black boys who believe in a better world was the number of adult parents who are purchasing that book for their adult sons and daughters. I found that to be very fascinating. But they failed even as a older parent with adult children, that their children's still needed that affirmation, because of all the things that were encircling their lives as well. You know, for for parents or for adults, I actually have a course that I teach nationally, that I curated, called race in America makes me want to holler race in America. And I've been privileged to offer that course to corporations. I've done it with university settings, national organizations, as well as congregations. And it is a deep dive into the racial histories of our nation, with the hopes of being transformed into anti racist, so we can be a part of the transformation that is needed, where we live and beyond. And so I am constantly engaging persons through that course. And absolutely prior to COVID and hopefully will commence again after COVID. traveling across the country. having these conversations. It always is an amazement to me. How surprised some persons are at what they don't know and how much it troubles them. I'm reminded of a talk that I gave near DC a few years ago, and after the talk, I was at a conference I was to go over to the author's table and sign books but I literally could not get out of the venue. Ultimately, the conference organizers had to come in and grab me and bring me to the table because three white men just kind of stopped me and held court And they wanted to give me all of their credentials in those few moments that we shared. They talked about them being, you know, doctors, medical doctors, and had had such success in their fields. And I was really trying to follow where they were going, but they really wanted to push on upon me how smart they were, and how, you know, Willdan down, they were, you know, through their experience, and through their studies. And then ultimately, they got to the point, which was the point was how we just how is it that I've lived for six decades, and I never at one time heard the word redlining. It totally impacted that equilibrium. Just in those few moments of me talking about some of the racial histories of our country, they had to begin to rearrange their mental space about who we are as a nation and how we arrived where we are today. And so I find that often to be the case with, with many adults in my life, I completed a race in America course, last week, before beginning a new one this week, and there was a senior White woman in the course. And she just, you know, very teary eyed, say it, how did I not know this? Right? So I don't make the assumption, I think that's very important that we might not make the assumption assumption that people are acting at a disregard for what they know. Right? A lot of people are taking actions based in ignorance in the truest sense of the word ignorance, which is simply lack of knowledge, they don't know. All they know is what's been fed to them by family by certain media. And then once they begin to hear the truth, again, it is an invitation for them to reconsider not only the arc of that history, but their responsibility to change our present in order to change our future.

42:02 – Simon Doong

And I think that relates back to the what you were saying about the importance of engaging children as soon as they're ready to start asking questions, so that they begin to comprehend the reality that they see. And maybe even the reality that they're that they don't see quite yet. But they'll come to understand later on. So I really appreciate you, you saying that. And I just want to add one more question, which is where you talked a little bit about the importance of the church and empowering and engaging young people. But in terms of sort of the large changing the larger, I guess, understanding of not just how the world works, but our society as a whole. Where do you see the church playing a role with within that, if that makes sense? Sure.

42:49 – Michael Waers

And I think that, and I'll speak specifically from my context, which is largely during the black church context. I've been privileged to worship and share in many different contexts. But that's the the context in which I primarily serve. And I think that in many ways, if we're honest, the church is in crises. I think that there are a lot of questions in the public square, concerning our value, and whether or not we actually have value to add to the larger communal enterprise. I do think we do. I think we have a great deal to her. I think that our legacy historically proves that. But I don't know that we often manifest that in real time. Meaning that I don't know that there are people who see us as a critical partner. In this day and time, I think that there are services that the church provides, maybe funerals on occasion, weddings, but being of value to the daily lives of our neighbors, for some of our neighbors is an open question. And I appreciate that. I think we need to have these questions. You know, Tupac Amaru Shakur, at one point in life in his life began calling churches in the quote unquote, hood, the urban center, he began calling them ghetto mansions. He talked about them as places that people went into, but did not come out of hope to serve. Right. So they were in the community, but not of the community. And I think that can be said, about a number of congregations who are in the community, but not of the community for God, that Call of Christ, the Christ, to go out into all of the world. And so I again, I think we are in a place of pricings. I think that the crises is magnified because there is something that we have to offer There is a kind of a grounding of communal understanding. I think there's values and ideals that the Church does not possess exclusively. But I think we've done a good job of, of nurturing over time, that that can be beneficial. Now, here's the interesting thing. What I have found in my activism in my service and movement is that even when I was in a space that was not of a particular religious form, if I was on the streets protesting, they're still persons, even if they are of no spoken faith, who liked that were there. And I think that's a misnomer. We got to push against that everyone is against the church, they are against clergy, persons, they don't know what what they're against is they are against the facade. They're against the disconnect the lack of integrity, they, they're against things that are not real, right. But once you show yourself to be a friend or a partner, and willing to make necessary sacrifices, this been my experience, that you're welcome. I'll never forget being at a protest. And one of the leaders of the protests introduced me this way. He said, You know, this is Pastor Mike. And y'all know that, you know, I don't particularly have any faith tradition, I'm not a member of any church. But, you know, I think it's important for him to say a word or prayer for us before we began, I thought that was really powerful. And something that served as notice to me that our presence is still welcomed, and celebrated. But there's much for the church to do. And I think, if I might conclude my thoughts on this by saying this, I think one thing the church has to do is learn how to be a better listening partner. I think we need to be comfortable sitting at the table, but not immediately speaking. I think oftentimes, church people church folk show up in automatically assume that their seat should be the head of the table, and that their voice should be the one that everyone yields to. But I think there's something very valuable in terms of being present. And I think this invitation for us as a church is to just be the just show up. And by showing up and being present, and being engaged in that way. You show others that you're really there for something greater than yourself.

47:44 - :ee Catoe

Awesome, well, Michael, we're gonna we're gonna transition now. And we're gonna let you plug some of your books, I know that you have a new one that came out right this month. And so we're gonna do we're gonna go into our resource roundup segment. And yeah, talk about your new book. And there's, there's another bucket to talk about, too. So yeah, just share a little bit about those with us.

48:10 – Michael Waters

Sure. I'm very delighted that this month, Liberty civil rights road trip has been released. And it is a story again, from our own experience, based on a civil rights pilgrimage that I led in 2018. During the 50th year anniversary commemoration of the death of Dr. King, I have led pilgrimages to the pilgrimages to the Deep South, to citizen sites, significance of rights movement, since 2005. And so I've taken a number of different groups on this trip to meet with leaders in the movement. But never before had I taken so many young children, including our own children, as a part of this experience. And I was blown away by how they transformed with their words and ideas, these very harrowing spaces, many of which I visited numerous times before, into hope field spaces. It's nothing like seeing children playing in the same park, where two generations ago, the children were met with fire hoses, and dogs, to let you know that you know what the arc of the moral universe is long, but it does bend towards justice, to to see young people, young girls, a walk into the very area where a bomb was detonated and took the lives of four little girls and injured another, a fifth, who now I can count as a friend, Sarah Collins, Rudolph very seriously. And so it was a book that I thought had value, not just in terms of introducing young people to civil rights history, which is foundational history, but to the greater ideal, that America is what we have made America to be, and that it has required all of our participation and so on. You see this multi generational, multi ethnic, multiracial, multi faith group that looks like America, traveling through the deep south together reflecting on the past, but considering a better future, and so that's what Liberty civil rights road trip is about. And I am just really honoured by the ways in which it has already been received by various viewers and teachers and educators. It's just been amazing. And so I'm grateful for that. And Nicole, Tad Gil did the illustrations in walnut color and I think they are captivating and so hope everyone will get a chance to pick that up on last year published for beautiful black boys who believe in a better world, which again emerges from our family's experience based on our oldest child. Jeremiah is wrestling with things that he had seen in the news and war witness to through our activism over many years, and ultimately comes to the question, what can be done to bring about change, and hopefully the book helps us consider together what can be done to address issues of gun violence and racial violence and police violence in our community. I'm grateful that Muhammad Ali Cinar put together a discussion guide and Activity Guide to go along with the book I want to migrate honors is that Lonnie Ali, the widow of Muhammad Ali saw a very early copy of the manuscript and was moved enough to engage the entire center behind it. And so their educational department did a wonderful guide in the back. And again, it's been amazing the reception there. It's been given some national awards, which I'm grateful but beyond that, it's being used in classrooms, and in Sunday schools, and in living rooms, which is where it was intended to be engaged, so that these very vital conversations might be had. Earlier this year, I released a another adult nonfiction book, entitled something in the water, a 21st century civil rights Odyssey, the foreword was written by the former presidential candidate, Beto O'Rourke, and it is a interesting conversation on race and white supremacy in America today. And again, I'm grateful for those who have engaged that book, but that is for adults to, to really consider where we are as a nation and where we need to go. The final chapter of that book is entitled, can a virus heal America? Can a virus heal America, which I think might be of interest as we continue to consider all of the impacts of the Coronavirus pandemic, globally and nationally, but the question is, given all the inequities that have been exposed across people groups, could we allow this to heal us? To make us a stronger nation? I still think it's an open question. I still think we're trying to discover who will ultimately be on the other side of pandemic, but this question of who was my neighbor? And what will I give for the benefit of my neighbors? It's very interesting conversation in light of the book in our current realities. And so those are those are three books that have come out within last last year and a half, and hopefully you get a chance to check them out.

53:29 – Simon Doong

Well, Michael, thank you so much for being with us. And for your your great books and your great writings. Again, we'll have links to all of those in the show notes so folks can check them out. Michael, thank you for being with us and blessings to you and your work and on your ministry. As we continue to fight the good fight together.

53:49 – Michael Waters

It's been a privilege to be with you on and I'm always mindful the words to POC, which very important words for me, he said, I might not change the world, but I hope to spark the brains of the ones who will. And I find that increasingly to be my prayer. I might not be the one who changes the world. But I do hope that through the ideas that are shared someone's mind might be sworn to bring about the need to change. It's been honored to be with you all thank you.

54:23 – Simon Doong & Lee Catoe

This has been the matter of faith podcast brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion. You can do so at Faith podcast at PC usa.org. We look forward to hearing from you see you next time. See you next time y'all.

54:39 – Lee Catoe

Hey everybody, thank you for listening to Episode 36 As a matter of faith, a presby podcast, please subscribe or follow or like to join our little podcast community.

55:13 - Simon Doong

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55:21 – Lee Catoe

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