Questions for the Week:
Special Guests:
Hyeyoung Lee & Kurt Esslinger, Mission Co-workers, South Korea
Guest Question:
I've heard about the terms 한 ("han") and 정 ("jeong") in Korean culture. What do these terms mean and how might they apply to faith?
Resource Roundup:
Three Talks on Minjung Theology
Han & Jeong: Korea's Sadness and Love
A complex feeling tugs at Koreans (Los Angeles Times)
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Questions for the Week:
Special Guests:
Hyeyoung Lee & Kurt Esslinger, Mission Co-workers, South Korea
Guest Question:
I've heard about the terms 한 ("han") and 정 ("jeong") in Korean culture. What do these terms mean and how might they apply to faith?
Resource Roundup:
Three Talks on Minjung Theology
Han & Jeong: Korea's Sadness and Love
A complex feeling tugs at Koreans (Los Angeles Times)
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
00:03 – Simon Doong & Lee Catoe
Hello and welcome to a matter of faith of Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question. Because if it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might be a matter of faith, whether it be faith in God, faith in others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unbound the interactive journal on Christian social justice for the Presbyterian Church, USA. I am your host, Lee Catoe. And I'm your host, Simon Doong. Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.
00:46 – Lee Catoe
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to a matter of faith, a press V podcast. And you know, it's just, it's just been a week, I think. And the cool weather is here, which I've kind of enjoyed. And I'll see Simon's face. And actually by this time, you will see both of our faces on the graphics now because we kind of changed up our graphics a little bit, Simon. Yes, we did. And yeah, we are on there. But how are you doing?
01: 20 – Simon Doong
I'm doing okay, Lee, as you said, the cooler weather is here. And spoiler alert, everyone that means I am finally wearing pants.I'm usually in shorts. Okay, there you go. Yes, yes, yes. That doesn't mean.
01:37 – Lee Catoe
Oh, we almost got we almost got taken off. We're gonna get another explicit. Y'all have our podcasts I've gotten explicit. On the apple, all the podcast services and Spotify. Yeah, I'm not sure what's up with that. I'm not sure what's up with that.
02:00 – Simon Doong
I'm gonna make it take a hunch that it's because we mentioned the word hell because we are talking about, you know, hell as part of, you know, faith and things like that. And so, I don't know what's up with that. But yeah, so I usually I'm a big shorts guy, but I finally put the pants on. I am wearing jeans, and they still fit.
02:17 – Lee Catoe
at least someone's fits now. So that is good. And yeah, I'm glad to feel a little, a little briskness in the air. So but yeah, I am excited about this podcast, because we're gonna have some great guests. And we have some great questions about some pretty relevant topics. I'm not as good as segueing into questions as Simon is, but there you go.
02:46 - Simon Doong
Well, you know, it's okay. Because sometimes you don't know what to do. And speaking of not knowing what to do, yeah, we have a question written in that reads, “a recent article came out in the Atlantic titled, my church doesn't know what to do anymore. This article outlines the challenges of churches trying to return to normal, the author, a rector at an Episcopal Church states that it is actually harder to do church now in 2021, than it was in 2020. In the heart of the pandemic, in the United States, I find her experience quite relatable. What do you think?” What do you think Lee? Is it harder to do church now than it was? Back in 20?
03:44 – Lee Catoe
Well, I think our I think our listeners do know that, you know, we don't necessarily work in a lot of the settings that many of the church leaders that we know, work in when it comes to traditional congregations and things like that. And so I can only speak from the people that I know. And the people that I know, I think in some ways would agree because I think I've even heard some of them describe it as you know, like a like a ride that kind of like, thrust you forward and then pulls back and, and and you're just not in a curette. Like you're not in a steady rhythm. You're always adjusting and you're always reading about the current CDC guidelines. And, and so yeah, I think it is very hard. And this article does really talk about just the challenges of keeping up with information, keeping up with the expectations of your congregation, and people really just wanting to be together but also making decisions that in this case, this is an Episcopal Church. So there is a bishop involved that kind of just said you can open up your church at the Presbyterian Church is a little different than that. It is kind of left up to each congregation to decide which adds a whole nother layer of this weirdness if your minister is not ready to reopen, but your session is and then you have to figure out how to navigate that. And what you do with mask is also kind of a communal decision. So I can kind of see us being harder. It's kind of in I mean, we were using this all the time, the church just kind of liminal space of in a pandemic, where some people are vaccinated, some are not. Now there's boosters, and now kids can get it and when can they. And so I can only imagine how jarring it is. And the church right now for for, for anybody in leadership, whether it be if you're ordained or in, or if you're not, whatever leadership position you're in.
05:42- Simon Doong
Yeah, I really appreciate the various challenges that the author who has Elizabeth Felicity, I believe, her name that she outlines, and I know that we really like to champion the church being where the people are, whether that be not on Sunday morning, or whether that be on a you know, in a virtual way, if that's what works for folks. And I think, you know, and I stand behind that, but I do also agree that now, in a space where it's like, we're trying to do hybrid, we want people to be able to participate virtually and in person. And if you're there in person, we need to have this discussion about whether to wear masks, do we need to require vaccination status? Do we need to? Or do we not? And is there something we need to do with regards to the way we do the sacrament still, and navigating all of those questions is actually a lot more complicated than in 2020, when it was just don't come to church, you're going to participate virtually. That's it, there's some there's a way to sort of live into that and accept that. Whereas now you have to navigate all of these more, I don't even want to say controversial, but sometimes you can feel controversial, or tense situations, because everyone has different feelings about everything. People will have different levels of comfortability, with the different ways that you're trying to do, church, you know, whether it's masks or just a way that you're doing the virtual aspect of your worship service, assuming that you have the funds and the capacity to be able to do that. And so, you know, yeah, previously, the guidance was don't come to church. And there's some simplicity with that. And now as you're trying to return to normal, you're finding that you have to actually navigate more difficult situations than when we were all in one very difficult situation. And that's hard. And I think it like another example of just like, the way things are different in different congregations, the congregation, I'm a part of very comfortable with me playing my clarinet up at the front of the sanctuary. You know, I'm really only near the people that I've been around throughout the pandemic, just sort of my bubble, I put my mask on when I'm not playing, things like that. And I want to, and I'd love to play it like another place, but not every congregation would necessarily feel comfortable with me playing my clarinet in their space, because of the idea of spit and germs and just that whole thing, and I totally get it. And that's totally valid and fine. But that just goes to show you the different the different sort of levels of comfortability with a very specific thing that could or could not be a part of worship, and now imagining doing that about many different aspects of your service. That's got to be hard.
8:38 – Lee Catoe
Yeah. And it's, it's gotta be tiring, because in this article, she talks about finding the middle road to kind of, you know, to kind of satisfy people's, you know, hesitations or to kind of, like speak to that, and also people who may, who may want to get back into the church and, and, and a lot quicker than others. And so in this article is basically saying, like, I don't know what to do, because I just don't think there is a middle road and I don't think there is either, and, I mean, my grandma always said, You're not gonna, you're not gonna satisfy everybody, you're not going to perfectly find a situation that's going to help anybody out. And that helps everybody in in in that space. And I think in some ways, I think this article is good in a sense that it does kind of give you permission to just say that like there's just not going to be there's just not gonna be a situation that you can find the perfect solution for. And but I've seen so many church leaders that have have really suffered because of this and that I've really just tried to list meet people where they're at and try to figure it out, but they just can't and we all know how people are like, people will come at you and people will challenge you and people will and many ways just a question make you question your your calling
10:00 – Lee Catoe
And that is and that is just happening right now more and more, I think that people are realizing that it's, it's, it's hard work and and even in this article, it talks about the virtual ness of church now and how people are more comfortable now at home. And, yeah, that might be how it is. And you might not get them back? And how do you get them back? And all these kinds of questions that this kind of raises. But I do hope that in this instance, that people will, I don't know, I just really wish people would give each other more grace about stuff. And just like this situation. And the midst of the pandemic right now, like, all these decisions are kind of out of our hands in some way. And it has thrown us into, you know, into questioning many things in the church. And I think these questions that she asked, are pointing to that it is an institution, it is this culture we've cultivated. And now that is kind of being challenged in this like, very real, biological, like life threatening way. That has forced us all to think about it and to and to figure out what is even church and Simon, I asked that question all the time. What is it? What even is it anymore? And so I do find it quite relatable. And I'm sure everyone else does. I've seen it shared a couple times, and a lot of the social media feeds. Yeah, I think that it's just some other examples that this makes me think of that I think may resonate with some folks. Well, actually, I know, I'm going to start with a quote that from from the article. So the author says, After a year of trying to assure people that we were still the church, even when we weren't in the same room. I don't know how to convince them now, of the importance of gathering in person further, returning to a church habit after 20 months away gets harder with each passing Sunday. And I'll be honest, that's real. And I say that as someone who, who has been able to stay involved in church throughout the pandemic, but I totally get that. I totally get how that is new. And that is hard. And that is scary. And it's like, what does this look like? What does it mean? Because, you know, with morphing or ambiguous or changing membership, or you know, attendance in church, there's questions also around finances. You know, in a Presbyterian Church, often the people who are doing who are the greeters, you know, are ushers in a sanctuary when people come in, that may be your your session members or your deacon or your deacons. Well, what if all those people no longer really feel the need to come to church physically, they, they, they're happy to serve on those committees and in those capacities, but they just don't see the need for that anymore. And they're out of practice of doing it. That's a real thing. And that's something that a church is going to have to wrestle with, like, Okay, how do we get you to actually come back or you're not comfortable doing that, that's totally fine. Another example, I've observed that it's really hard to get kids to come up for the kids time now, because the kids were so not used to being in church, let alone you want us to come up and be the, in the center of things. While these people are sitting around us when we spent the last year being away from people. Yeah, that I mean, and and same thing is the idea of greeting people coming into the sanctuary, we spent so much time trying to not interact with people now. It's, you want me to greet people?
13:51 – Simon Doong
Yeah, that I mean, let's be honest, that's a real that's like a real thing. That's a change of habit is a change of behavior. And I like you said, I think we need to have some grace for ourselves and with each other recognize we're not always going to get it right. Because I think otherwise, we're going to put so much pressure on ourselves to to make it work. And we're not always going to be able to make it work in the way that we expect. We did it I think a lot of people did make it work in the heart of the pandemic, when it was just virtual. And now when things are actually more complicated now, we'll figure out how to make it work, but it's gonna take time. It's not easy. And we just, I just hope people remember to like, like you said, give themselves some space and some grace, you know, it's gonna take time for us to learn to get our social, our social in this back, because if you I mean, I have found it hard to interact with people. And I am very extroverted. And I can talk to anybody. And I have found it very hard to kind of get back into a groove.
15:00 - Lee Catoe
And it's really interesting what you said about the kids because I've always, you know, I've always said like, well, you do parade kids around. Like there are like, token like the kid service kid sermon and all that kind of thing. And, and it is interesting because kids have had such a hard time. And I'm sure they're very confused. You know, you tell us that we'll do one thing. And now we can do something else. And so but but I think just adults are like that, too. I don't think there's like a, I don't think we give ourselves permission for ambiguity. And we don't give ourselves permission for for processes. Always, whenever I talk about science, I'm like, science is not definite, especially if something is so I have a science background, like science is not definite, especially when it's something that is brand new. You are constantly learning about something things are constantly evolving, even. I mean, we can talk about evolution in the faith perspective, I mean, this, this virus has evolved in front of our eyes, it has evolved and is evolving constantly. And so if you don't believe in evolution, maybe this isn't for you, but the virus is evolving. And so things change. And science is a process and learning about it. And I do think people get frustrated with that. And I think because of the information we've been receiving from the CDC, from whoever is giving us information, they're just learning what they're learning at the time, they're learning it and trying to adapt, and the communication is not good. And it's all very frustrating. But I do think if we had this mentality, you know, that things are not definite that it is an an evolving process, that can be frustrating. But if I felt like if we had that mentality as a foundation, I think this the, this pandemic, we would have experienced in a very different way that we will have to we have to learn about it in order to deal with it. And the things that we learned, we have to trust and all these kinds of things. So yeah, I, I, I send out prayers for our church leaders, and for people who are going through this because I know it's very relevant. And I know people are absolutely tired and frustrated. So prayers out to y'all if you're listening. And yeah, I hope that and I hope in some ways you can give yourself grace, and that your congregants can give each other grace. And also the space to kind of take a breath. And in a time where that's not always the that's not always welcome. So prayers for y'all. But we are going to move on to our next question. And you know, we've been talking a lot about TV shows lately. And in some ways, and many of the ways that I take a breath is that I do watch a lot of TV. And I'm very upfront about that. It's kind of a hobby of mine. And we got a question about squid game, and everybody hopefully knows what that is. If you don't, it's on Netflix. But the question reads, “the latest popular show that people are talking about is squid game,” who just by the way, just is it got knocked down from number one in Netflix, but it's still up there, which is pretty impressive. And “squid game is a Korean drama on Netflix, squid games, shares some similarities with other dystopian thing shows a bleak outlook on life. People competing for survival and some sort of game or contest and the powerful use of the poor for entertainment. Why do you think this show and these themes are popular? Do the messages do these themes convey any relevance for people of faith?” I got a little tongue tied there.
19:01 – Simon Doong
It helps when I actually write the question with proper English and we write it down.
19:08 – Lee Catoe
Yeah, but Simon, do you? I mean, we always like to talk about stuff like this. So what do you think about about the guy about the squid game?
19:20 – Simon Doong
Yeah, so I guess I should give a disclaimer. I have only seen the first episode so far. But we'll continue to watch and something that I also want to give a shout out for is for our upcoming guests segment on this episode, you'll hear squid game mentioned by our guests because it is very relevant. And I something that I appreciate about shows like squid game is how they provide a commentary about usually societal inequality, or wealth disparity, or capitalism. And I think squid game in particular speaks to current issues of debt in South Korea. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I was reading meaning that like, you know, X percent of South Koreans have loans from three different financial institutions or something like that. And again, I'm not, I don't I don't know the exact numbers there. So I'm not going to quote it directly. But I think it just, it provides a perspective that is somewhat accurate to some people's financial situation. And I think there is something inherently intriguing about the use of competitions in shows like this, because the competitions represent the competition amongst people in real life to get ahead, particularly the attempts to get ahead by those who don't have a lot. And the sort of idea of the of the powerful looking at these competitions as a form of entertainment, the idea that no matter how hard, well, often, no matter how hard someone works, you will still never actually make it into that, that higher tier, that upper class that 1%, that powerful echelon of society. And so if you combine some of those themes with things that this show has, like action, and thrills, and definitely shock value, and maybe even a little goofiness here and there that can be really gripping and intriguing. And so I think that that is some of the things that are some of the reasons that shows like this resonate with people. I mean, we look at the Hunger Games, Hunger Games is very, very popular as books and as films cover some of the similar themes as squid game. And so that's some of my initial thoughts about why it's popular. But what do you think, Lee?
21:40 - Lee Catoe
Yeah, and I've, and I will also do a disclaimer, I've only seen three, I've only seen three episodes, and, but in those episodes, I mean, you can definitely tell, just like what you were saying, Simon, but there's also there's also a lot of violence in this, in these in this TV show. And any you know, you always get people are like, I'm not gonna watch that, because of the violence. And and that and that in many cases, that's pretty legit. But I do think that in in many ways, this this TV show is violent for this TV show depicts violence for a reason, in that it kind of puts a physicalness to the violence that capitalism places on people, and you don't normally see that, like we don't normally and and when I'm what I'm saying is that the mental, the mental harm, and the emotional harm, spiritual harm that we don't often talk about when we're talking about debt, or when we're talking about capitalism, and how it affects people. A lot of that a lot of that a lot of those things that is that are being affected is within the mind, and you don't see it. It's not, it doesn't have like a physical illness, it doesn't have something you can see unless someone is, you know, like outwardly showing their emotions. And I think that this show also depicts that very, very well. But it does really bring to the forefront of the violence that is put on people that is placed upon people when we set up games, when we set up each other against one another in competitiveness, that that that this is what can happen to people. And I am a full believer that this kills people. I mean, it does, it does kind of take people's lives. But in this case, this is kind of I don't want to say hyperbolic, but I do think it is a very outward physical way of showing just the awfulness that can be these capitalistic systems within a country that that was not necessarily the case. And, and our guests do kind of speak about that a little bit. But in South Korea, these ideals, and this idea of capitalism is an as an export from westernized societies. And I do think that when Americans watch it, I do think in some ways, we have approached it as just entertainment. Like, oh, this is a good show like, and there's not that deepness. And I think if you listen to this podcast, you will, you will watch it differently, not because of what we're saying, but because of what our guests are saying that you will watch the show very differently. That is not a show necessarily about entertainment, but it is a show with a deep, deep conversation about society in South Korea, when it comes to the characters when it comes to their backgrounds when it comes to this westernized idea that us Americans have exported throughout the world. And, and I think Americans will take it differently and watch it differently. And see the impact of this kind of capitalistic nature that we're very, very good at spreading out through the world, but it's meant to be jarring and it's meant to make you uncomfortable and it's meant for everybody to say, Oh, that's too much violence, because in all reality, capitalism is very violent and different ways. But this just shows it in a very physical way.
25:14 – Simon Doong
I think I think also that there is regarding the question about how these themes have relevance for people of faith, there is an opportunity in the shows to take a look and see like, Hey, is the church even mentioned in this? Hmm? Where is the church? Where's the faith community, and I get that sometimes shows will just avoid bringing anything faith related at all into their content because of fear of alienating certain viewers, or just not just not wanting to kind of go down that rabbit hole. And I get that, but that hasn't stopped other shows from incorporating faith at times. And what I mean by that is, If faith is not mentioned, or the church is not mentioned, in a show about the dangers of capitalism, the dangers of society that exploits people or that cripples them, if there's no faith community mentioned, there just is the assumption then that the faith community is an ally, or enabler of that system? Maybe? I don't know, I think that's an interesting question. I also think that sometimes we do see portrayals of the faith community as allies, to exploiters, to oppressors. And then sometimes in those situations, it's often very explicit what the faith community his role is. And so, and sometimes we may see portrayals of the faith community as being those who actually help people escape a bad situation, I think that it's important for us to think about what is the portrayal of church or of the faith community? or lack there of and what might that be signaling? Yeah. And there is there is some but reading up on it, and the episodes later, you kind of are introduced, in some ways to religious characters. And, and this is not any kind of spoilers, but it does speak to the stereotypes within that culture. And in many cases, you know, like, this is a this is a very spoiler, but there, but when, but when one of the characters is approached to kind of join this thing he automatically thinks are evangelic, a, an evangelical Christian, which we can talk about that all day long, that's something that can be kind of deconstructed. And also, there's a participant in the squid game, who was a minister. And that's a whole conversation of like, you know, are you in it for the money and but there is these like, and an article I just pulled up, as we're talking like, this person is mad that they they depicted the church in that way. But I'm like, That's how it's seen. And that is how his experience, and that is mostly how his experience in certain parts of the world and this person, is it. I don't know, if this person is an English like his, I mean, I'm assuming it's like an American author. I'm not really sure. But that's also a question is that we approach this in a very Americanized way, when we're like, that's not always how the church is. And it's like, actually, that is how the church was exported out into the world. And it may be changing here, in some ways, which I think is changing less than we think it is. But as the export of Christianity, Western Christianity, that is what we exported. And that is what it's talking about in this show. And I think that's great. I think it does make us question it, and does make us ask questions, because we have perpetuated these systems, we have kind of empowered this to happen. And so if we're offended by that, maybe we need to talk about that. Why are you offended that this is how Christianity is portrayed? Well, actually, this is the experience that a lot of people have when missionaries and the Presbyterian Church was one of the denominations to go to South Korea to go to Korea and Presbyterianism is the one of the biggest church in the Presbyterian world as a Korean as a South Korean church. I'm pretty sure and that is something we also have to wrestle with. How has the church also, well, then different cultures within different spaces, perpetuated these things as the NSA even in the Swick game? And that's saying a bunch. Yeah, that's saying a lot. Yeah, so we encourage folks to check out squid game and also, we're about to turn our podcast over to some wonderful guests. And as you listen to them into the conversation with Kurt and Hyeyoung be thinking about these things the next time you might tune in to check out squid game and think about these themes around capitalism, debt, violence and exploitation.
30:10 – Lee Catoe
Well, joining us today on the podcast, we have two very special guests that are joining us for a question that we have for them. But today we are welcoming Kurt Esslinger. And hey, Jung Lee, who are PCUSA mission co workers and South Korea. Hyeyoung and Kurt, we are very grateful you are here. So welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's nice to be on.
30:40 - Simon Doong
And so the the question we have for you today is “I've heard about the terms Han, and Jeong in Korean culture, what do these terms mean and how might they apply to faith?”
30:50 - Kurt Esslinger
So this is a two hour podcast at least right? Because it will probably take.
30:57 – Lee Catie
You never know that. You never know.
31:02 – Hyeyoung Lee
It's a very good question. But very difficult question. I actually lost this weekend, I went out on a trip with San’s friends’ mothers, and I asked the same question to them. And they're like it's a concept that a lot of Koreans know. But it's really hard to put it together in the words and explaining it. So hopefully, we can share some of our some of our insights on this. But that wouldn't be like the answer for that. So that's our interpretation of what we think about Han and Jeong.
31:40 – Kurt Esslinger
Yeah, yeah, like the first, probably the first thing to start off to notice, there is no direct English translation of either word. So if you're gonna talk about, like, what is the definition of Python, you know, it can take an entire paragraph to sort of talk about all the various meanings that then they'd go into Han. And then there's a there's one theologian, a Minjung theologian, and that's another Korean word that takes a paragraph to translate. Minjung theology, you could say Minjung theology is parallel to like liberation theologies of South Africa and civil rights movement, African Americans and things. So this it's like, it came out as Korea's liberation theology innocence. So Minjung theologians talked about, like the there's one theologian tornando, who ever wrote, I read one article about his towards a theology upon and he refused. In the first, it took him 10 pages to start to talk about what he what Han means. And then he, he refused to write even one sentence definition. Instead, he looked at three pieces, or four pieces of art, and use the stories to talk about Hi. So it's, it's kind of like but if I were to, if I were to try to put it into a kind of sentence that is maybe not quite a paragraph. It's like, a terrible sense of feeling of oppression, and sadness, and anger, and the frustration of suffering from an injustice. So not not just being hurt, but being hurt in an unjust way. And so that feeling of the response, a kind of response that your whole body makes. I think Hyeyoung has one Yeah, actually, it's on Handong has. This is his definition of Han. of failing of unresolved resent resentment against injustice suffered a sense of helplessness because of overwhelming odds against one a feeling of acute pain in one's guts and bowels. Making the whole body writhe and squirm, staying, upset, obstinate, urgent to take revenge and to right and wrong all this all this combined, the obstinate urge to take revenge and right the wrong so it's very complicated. It could be like one individual can feel Han but it's also can be a collective suffering that Korea as a country or community have dealt with.
34:27 – Hyeyoung Lee
So Koreans would say Oh, my life is full of Han because I have suffered or this and this and and then we just understand it that as it is, well like if we say it to other foreigners or other people from other outside of countries then like really hard to articulate or like even say that. So but basically, you know, Korea is a country that was suffered by outside forces throughout the history from China and Korea is located in China, Russia and and Japan. And throughout the history there's a lot of fights or invasion from outside forces from China and you know, recent the history the Japanese occupation in to 20th centuries from 1910 to 1945. So we have that collective ness of being suffered by outside forces. And during that time, it's really hard to express like our feeling of resentment or injustice and things like that there's a lot of suppressions of feeling and that collective feeling kind of becomes Han.
35:51 – Hyeyoung Lee
In terms of and that applies to like people from margins, people more margin can feel that more like as a woman like living in a patriarchy girl society, they have a collective Han as a woman that feel that way.
36: 19 – Kurt Esslinger
Yeah, there's, Sonam Dong also writes a four fold time so there's he the lint not delineates. What's the English word for like he recognizes? He qualifies for ways he identifies four ways in which Han manifests for for the Korean people. What is it? The Koreans have suffered numerous invasions by surrounding powerful nations like hey on has said being one idiom is that Korea is like the shrimp among the whales, when the whales fight, the shrimps back explodes Koreans have continually suffered tyranny of rulers, so that they think of their own existence as Baeksang. So that several of the rulers, their own green rulers have become tyrannical. And then also he says Confucianism as a that's another etiology, slash religion that came from the outside. Confucianism put a particularly hard suffering onto women with a strict hierarchy of gender roles. And then there was one point in Korean history for the fourth one, one point in Korean history, when half of the population was registered as hereditary slaves and treated as property rather than as people of the nation. So these are like four sort of ways in which the entire Korean nation collectively has suffered a harm and he feels this harm and feels this not only an anger but this sadness and this crying so he also talks about like, a lot of Koreans talk talking about sound or talking about talking or even when the what's the Korean phrase for bird sing? She deuli weulda? Yeah, they say when the bird sing in English, would you say was a bird sing Koreans, they say when the birds cry, because so much of this painful history, so much of this living as as being up in the situation of injustice, they see crying, see, they see limit in a lot of different places.
38:33 – Hyeyoung Lee
In order to deal with han this deep sadness and suffering and resentment, like, there are many different ways that people express the Han. And one of the ways that they have people have done is to through an art form, like singing or drawing or writing poems or stories, and things like that. That's not direct way of dealing with it, but also like expression of that kind of feelings. Through our history, you will see that those kind of art pieces that express Han, so we can find something kind of kind of things like that, and in other ways that people dealt with Han is to express to your anger or like expressing it like a fight against injustice. So throughout history, and there's a lot of like a revolution movement of the people from you know, during Korean Japanese occupied occupation in Korea, the Korean independent fighters actually actively fight against against injustice during the suffering time, and there's also like a labor movement. The laborers who are suffered through this system, and they come out and say or say they're the human rights and things like that. So how to deal with this Han ridden life. There are different ways of dealing with that. One, I guess one way that the Korean Christian movement have come into this is to that the theology that Kurt was talking about in 1970, on November 13, which is coming up next month, there is a one symbolic thing incident happened of a person called champion, who was a labor worker who actually burned himself to death, to shout out the very tragic conditions of the labor factory workers who are suffering from under this dictatorship, the period that, uh, he wrote a whole book, and there's somebody who wrote a book about his, his by biography, and in the, in the book in the writing, he had mentioned that only if I have someone who goes to university, or if I know any scholars who can join me in this movement, maybe I could, we could have made things differently or something like that. So that kind of thing really fired up. The people who are going to university students, and the theologians at the time really had felt that religion feel responsibility of like, okay, we need to really join in this movement. So that Minjung theology actually developed after that incident. So and that dealt a lot with the issue. The concept of Han is a very core concept of the minion theology.
41:53 - Kurt Esslinger
I guess we can also design talk a little bit about one of the one of the dynamics of the presence of US and Western missionaries in Korea was, as Koreans were developing this understanding of Han under Japanese occupation of recognizing it as this sort of deep sadness, and anger and resentment toward oppression. Western US missionaries, were trying to encourage Koreans to ignore Han. And so we're trying to in a way D politicize the gospel, and trying to get Koreans to stop being so angry, and so sad about Japanese colonization. Even there were some US missionaries who openly supported Japanese colonization. But even the ones who didn't like Japanese colonization, most of them were also saying, but we at least want to Koreans to stop being so angry all the time. So if we can bring them to Jesus, then they'll be more happy and not think about being so sad. So it wasn't until the 70s, as Hale mentioned, that as the this Minjung theology movement arose, which was in response to the situation of military dictatorship that was supported by US foreign policy, so the US supported military dictator in South Korea, in that situation of oppression, then theologians started saying that concept of Han may have religious significance for Christians as well as well. And so then they started trying to undo the work that Western missionaries had tried to do to say, we can't just ignore Han, we have to recognize it. And we have to go through Han if we are to reach done. And so Don is like the second like the the
brother, not brother, sister, that the thing that goes along with it, man, words are not coming out of my mouth. Now. I need to finish my coffee first. But Don is like the transcendence of high and so the poet, there's a poet, kimchi ha who wrote a lot of poems and stories to try to illustrate Han and Don. And so he came to ha saw that he was a Catholic poet, as well. And he saw the church as meant to be like the resolver of the people's high, so that the church should be actively involved in recognizing Heinz saying, There is one here there is injustice here, there's something wrong and then and the church's work should be intimately involved in that hunt in order to bring about a kind of redemption or a resolution of the Han to reach done, which is the transcendence of that of the Han and so, the church not only provides people spiritual comfort but that the church works for actual liberation, seeking to right the wrong seeking to bring justice where there is injustice.
45:10 – Simon Doong
I find that really interesting that initially, Western missionaries were trying to use faith and Christianity as a way to distract people from from the suffering that they were experiencing. And then later on, for based on what you're saying Kurt and hay on is that they're a sort of like a reckoning where people said, oh, no, faith is how people will transform or be transformed. Or it can be a measure by which you empower people to hopefully overcome their Han and or as you're saying, transcend into Dawn into this next the next phase or just, you know, get out of the state of oppression. I think that's really interesting.
So the other part of the question was about Jeong and I recognize that that's probably another two hour podcast. Does that how does that relate or not relate to Han and or, or faith because those are two really, I guess, of the our two terms sort of culture outside of Korea that often makes it to other other countries and people hear these terms we may not be familiar with.
46:27 – Hyeyoung Lee
I'm not sure if there's any direct relation between Han and Jeong. But one way that people feel with Han is to be more flat friends like to share love to other people, as a way of, you know, dealing with the sufferings that they have, not returning back to suffering to others or giving another injustice other people but like to, to love the neighbors to, you know, show their affection to other other people in that way. Dzong is kind of a deep connection with the people in the fashion. It's really also hard to, you know, translate directly into English words, but also has very deeper meaning of so many different layers that we can talk about Chung in many different ways and in even in Korean wars, there are different ways of saying it, you can use it as a noun or verb or adjective and things like that. And also not just the feeling of deep love or affection, it not just tours people, but also towards like things or nature or other things. Like for example, like, children would always carry this blanket or our toy, and they will say I am tone deaf. Meaning like, I am very deeply attached to this little thing that I have been carrying for a long time. So that could be one way of thinking about Jeong. But also like, I don't know, Simon, you were a YAV here in Korea. And when you're here, you may have felt like other people extra friendly to you or like giving you something that you did to order or something like that. And that kind of little gesture of you know, welcoming others providing the hospitality is also another way of thinking about Jeong. Yeah.
48:14 – Kurt Esslinger
When I was first learning Korean getting ready to when I was coming in doing, I was going to do an exchange study year when I was studying at McCormick Seminary in Chicago, and then they had a partnership with high Michigan University and theological school in Seoul. I was getting ready to go there. And so my Korean friends like hey, all the time, and some other Korean friends were trying to explain junk to me. And so they did it. We went to a Korean, a Korean food restaurant and they're like, oh, okay, great. So if you really like this restaurant, you just want to keep coming back to this restaurant, you'll say toto so like, I, I have received junk in this place. And now because I feel the junk with this place, then I feel a connection of wanting to be there. And then you're having a good experience with the owner. You know, that also leads to the feeling of John, I read one article by some Korean American psychologists who are trying to define junk by writing an entire article about it, but talking about what psychologists what can be helpful for psychologists to recognize and so they describe Dzong as kind of a collective emotion. Whereas in Western culture, we tend to, to understand emotions as located in the heart, this emotion inside that we feel and they describe Jeong as an emotion, but it's an emotion that's felt collectively so that's outside so that term that hey, on shared junk through Dachang there are so that what they translate that term is kind of mean meaning I have been permeated by junk. So there's an emotion of connection that has permeated me that I have received and that's why I now feel this, this Jeong. But there can be, you know, feelings of Jeong in an entire community. So one of the one of the one of the ways that he writes in terms of the the collective feeling of it, it's the manifest manifestation of young, in a social structure and in social values is primarily through loyalty and commitment without validation logic or reason. This can be compared to the concept of amay in Japanese, which is an expectation of behaviors without validation.
50:37 – Kurt Esslinger
But in interactions with Korean culture, whether they're formal or private, they often carry an assumption of commitment. In Western culture commitment can be contractual or defined, such as in marriage, instead of being implicit. Whereas with John, it's more an implicit when commitments are based upon contextual significance. For example, because of John related affairs, then individuals easily become members of a cohesive group at home or at work bounded by Jeong.
51:10 – Kurt Esslinger
And he also notes, Jeong is not always positive. Sometimes it can be suppressive junk, like bondage. And so there are some there are times in which that collective sense of junk can also create a collective identity that then pushes other outsiders outside of that identity. So like, where us as us Americans, and Simon, we received a lot of welcome and hospitality. Other immigrants from other countries, like South Asian countries, or from Africa, don't always receive such warm hospitality when they when they arrive or trying to work here in Korea. So it's, but that's a it's all sides of that, that concept of Jeong or the way Jeong is manifested in Korean society.
51:53 – Hyeyoung Lee
And so it's also very different from love, like, we can't really translate that into just love. I guess love can be also hard to define as well. But it's like, it's, it's very opposite from Love at first sight. It's like a long and deepen sort of a relationship that you deal with, with a with a person. And like a curse that like, it's not always a positive things. And sometimes, it can associate like, in a long, like a marriage relationship, we will say, Oh, me and John Kuhn don't Patra meaning, like I've been through, you know, the ugly part of you, and the, you know, pretty part of you. And all combined together, and I have this deep connection with you, with all that kind of issues that we have gone through, like waves that we've gone through, it's very, like a mixed feeling of, you know, but still have that, that, that deep connection with it with the person or the thing.
53:11 – Hyeyoung Lee
So it's a yeah, it's just an on a surface level, it will be like, being like a hospitable to other people who are being like, you know, extend your, your love for others. But it also can be mean in very deeper level of like a deep connection with the person but it also has a negative aspects of it, like the curse said, that because you have this bondage, or like, we have some sort of community feeling. Sometimes you could exclude other people through that process.
53:46 – Lee Catoe
It sounds like the I mean, for me, it That also sounds like kind of the what we want. And the church like that kind of love that is, is deeper. And and what I'm hearing in this is that like, and we've had a huge conversation within the church here in the US about translations of different languages, and specifically, like theological language, and all this kinds of stuff. And we treat it as though it's just words. And I hope people really get out of this like this is like, depending on where the context is, and the experiences, there's deeper meaning and deeper embodiment when it comes to language. And I'm hearing that like, these things are like within our bodies and within are like, how we act and how we feel. And it's very communal. And yeah, so as you're talking, I'm like, Yeah, I was like people in the church need to hear this because this is something that we are experiencing in ways that we may not also can contain language because I don't think I think there are so many ways that we can learn from each other about how to like even name things, and we want to love deeply and we want to be connected and we want to have this connection.
55:00 – Lee Catoe
You know here in the US, we've made fate so individual, that we've lost that kind of connectedness. And so as you're talking all that just kind of went through my mind, not having a bit not having a lot of experience with as Simon has being a YAVin South Korea, but just hearing y'all talk. Yeah, I just kept thinking about that, like, how do we Yeah, how do we really, like embody and, and try to not individualize the ways in which we go about loving each other? Or viewing injustice? That is not this individual sin that it is communal, and it is systemic. And I've learned a bunch and this in hearing y'all speak.
55:50 – Kurt Esslinger
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it is, it is really helpful. I think, one of the way, one of the ways I appreciated sort of learning about these kinds of concepts and learning about the Minjung theology movement was then recognizing the parallels between what I was seeing in my, my situation in the US and seeing situations of division in the US and seeing the situations of systemic oppression, and those responses to oppression. So, you know, in Korean diligence, talk about the sound of of Han, and that the the vocal sort of response and the response of the body to oppression, you know, that that could help like, say, especially for me, as a white person can help me recognize Wednesday, African African Americans express their frustration or expressing the pain of living in a country that was made for white people, you know, how that frustration can come out. And then just to, you know, what I was taught, or socialized to assume is like, Oh, well, that, that these loud responses, or this or this anger coming from this person, you know, that's improper, and in order to be, you know, more civilized and better and properly interact and community, you have to be reserved, and, and more a little bit more stoic, you know, and to recognize that, that there's a problem with that assumption in terms of white white community, so that the response to oppression can come not only through the body of be physically felt, but then can express itself in a kind of sound that white people in white communities are not very used to hearing.
57:45 – Kurt Esslinger
And so what does it mean for us as, as white communities to prep for predominantly white communities to create space for that vocalization of Han to create spaces for other groups within the US who are wanting to express their frustration or express their anger, to be able to express anger at what and then to for the community empower to not receive that anger immediately, defensively, but to say what what does it mean for us as a community to be resolvers of this pain of oppression?
58:20 - Hyeyoung Lee
I, I would say that those concept is like, the very unique to Korean community and Korean culture, which actually fading away, which is a sad part of what I would say that like, with the globalization and the new, liberal liberalism, these kind of, like, a lot of Koreans also have hold very westernized way of thinking, especially younger generation. You may have seen the squeak game, I'm not sure. If you did, like, you know, that also, like criticize issues of, you know, the handling capitalism and money and, and all that, like, so there's a very less of like, practicing Chong and like having that kind of collective, you know, way of thinking has really kind of fade away in Korean societies these days.
59:20 – Kurt Esslinger
So yeah, in a lot of ways South Korea has become gradually more and more Americanized or westernized, which in a sense, was the project of the missionaries that first arrived in Korea. So the you have the this westernization Americanization in South Korea, whereas in North Korea, a lot of what you get are sort of caricatures or ridicule of the North Korean expression of community which, you know, a lot of Westerners will try to say, oh, there, it's authoritarian and they're all taught what to think and all they have is just this one of we are the North Koreans and the US is our enemy kind of thing.
1:00:04 – Kurt Esslinger
But part of what's happening there also is that they've they have continued this sense of collective Jeong in North Korea, whereas South Korea is in a lot of ways trying to shed that in order to become more westernized and more Americanized. And so and then, you know that it also goes back into the missionaries. Do you had some missionaries who overtly supported Japanese colonization of Korea, other missionaries who were like we just don't want to be kicked out as Japan's colonizing Korea, so we won't say anything bad about Japan so that they'll let us continue to turn Koreans into Christians. And that's the most important thing anyway making proselytizing, right. And then there were there are other you like us missionaries, especially who may have opposed Japanese colonization and tried to support movements for Korean independence, but not necessarily because they thought Koreans were great, and we're going to be able to do nation building on their own, but because they preferred a US colonization to a Japanese colonization, so that a US colonization will help usher in what we're seeing as this Americanization in westernization. In South Korea, and in a lot of ways, all those theologies, all those understandings from those Christians helped lead to the division that eventually became the Korean War, which by the way, also isn't over. It's still continuing. Only an armistice was signed. So a lot of people were talking about Afghanistan as the longest US war. It is not the longest war. The Korean War is the longest war that the US has been involved in. The only difference is the US is trying to say it's not a war, when Congress said, Oh, it's just a police action, thereby dissolving themselves absolving themselves of responsibility.
1:01:56 – Kurt Esslinger
But I think another interesting way that that happen is, is that that is a source of Han for the Korean people. If we also think about that, as the Dzong, between the South Korean and North Korean people, that that can also help understand a lot of the continuing movements for peace and reunification of the Korean Peninsula, that a lot of North Koreans and South Koreans still both see themselves as this family, even though they're divided, even though they've now developed into, you know, it's been a couple generations of developing into, to opposing systems of communism, and authoritarian capitalism in South Korea, that even though those systems have have gradually created distance between the people of North Korea and South Korea, a lot of a lot of them still feel themselves as connected as family, or connected through this kind of junk of being the one people of Korea, but having been forcibly divided by the decisions of outsiders of invaders, in a sense, when there was the US and the Soviet Union that decided to divide the peninsula into two pieces. In 1945, at the end of World War Two, no Koreans wanted to do that. Well, except for some of the Koreans who supported Japanese colonization. Otherwise, the it was not the will of the Korean people to do that division. So there is that feeling of junk that is still there. So even South Koreans who like would say, Well, I mean, I don't want to live in communist society, either. But, you know, don't they there, there is a connection between us that we we should not have to live forever as separated or as, as hostile enemies to each other, we should try to create, recreate our relationship based on something other than what the these outside large world powers have, have tried to push us into.
1:04:06 – Simon Doong
Well, we really appreciate you, you know, diving into trying to explain these difficult and complicated concepts with us. Because as Lee said, there are things that just don't translate very well. They don't translate into simple terms. And we hope that folks recognize that these are these terms exist for a reason. And in fact, as you mentioned, Kurt, the not the existence of the terms, but there is relationship to some of these terms and faith and to the church community and the role that the church has played in Korean history. And that's a lot for people of faith, I think to wrestle with and to try to unpack a little bit. So we appreciate you all sharing, issuing that challenge to our to our listeners, and we're so grateful that you took the time to be with us today.
1:05:00 – Lee Catoe
Yeah, thank you so much and whenever. So, now that I have heard this conversation, I think this squid Game TV series, I will have a whole other, you know, now I have a whole other concept of other contexts that people in the US have no idea. I mean, I'm pretty sure. I mean, some of them might, but I'm pretty sure and holistically, it's not. But I do think that now now I'm going to tell everyone I'm like, listen, here's a little bit of info and now watch it and see kind of what you like come of it, because I think it's interesting that a lot of people in the US are, I have taken to it and have no idea when we have had such a big impact within the lives of, of Koreans. And so and so yeah. Thank you for that as well. And so yeah, again, this was this was wonderful. And if you want to come back, and talk more sure. And if you want your own podcast.
1:06:03 – Lee Catoe
Oh, we are we are we were just gonna throw this out there into the universe. I think we need to have more conversations with our Korean siblings, because we are, there is there is that history. And we're and we're trying to be more are trying to be hospitable and providing spaces for every experience within our church. And so we are throwing that in the universe and seeing and seeing if that happens. But yeah, anytime you want to come. So let us know.
1:06:38 – Kurt Esslinger
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I think we brought up conversations that could take five hours.A lot. There's a lot of topics in there. Trying to pack in.
1:06:42 – Hyeyoung Lee
We could expand it into other other things. script script game can be one way gave the whole topic.
1:06:51 – Kurt Esslinger
A whole topic, the whole nother podcast now. Yeah.
1:06:56 – Lee Catoe
Yeah. So so we can we can talk about that and see where it goes. So in all seriousness, we would we would welcome that. But again, thank you so much. And we will put links into the I think it's, it'll be great for people to read about the theologies that we're talking about. So we'll try to provide some links for people to get that and, and yeah, again, thank you all so much for being here.
1:07:21 – Hyeyoung Lee & Kurt Esslinger
Thank you. Absolutely.
1:07:25 - Lee Catoe
Yeah. So just a reminder that we're going to post the links that Kurt and Hyeyoung discussed, and that's going to be our resource roundup segments. So check out those links, read up on these amazing theologies of liberation from our Korean siblings that I think will, you know, change how we think about things within our church. So check out those links in the show notes, and we will be back next week.
1:08:05 – Simon Doong & Lee Catoe
This has been episode 39 of a matter of faith, a Presby podcast. Don't forget to subscribe, like or follow on your preferred podcast platform. And don't forget to leave us a review. It doesn't take very long. It doesn't have to be a long review, but we'd really appreciate it and preferably five stars wherever you can give us five stars. So don't forget to leave us a review. And if you have a question, you can write it in to faith podcast@pcusa.org We look forward to reading and responding to your questions.