A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

The Frozen Chosen, Vaccine Mandates & OPERAAAA!!! w/ April Martin

December 02, 2021 Simon Doong and Lee Catoe Season 1 Episode 41
A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
The Frozen Chosen, Vaccine Mandates & OPERAAAA!!! w/ April Martin
Show Notes Transcript

Questions for the Week:

  • Some people refer to Presbyterians as "the frozen chosen." What does this mean?
  • The archbishop of the U.S. military has said that Catholic troops shouldn't be forced to receive the Covid-19 vaccine if they feel it violates their conscience. What are your thoughts on this? Further, do you think this is any different from a religious exemption for vaccination?


Special Guest:
April Martin, Director of Youth Ministries and Associate for Congregational Engagement, Madison Avenue Presbyterian Church

Guest Question:
Not all people who work in the church necessarily have a theological or seminary background but still do great work. What are skills that you learned in a non-church related job (ie. another industry or sector) that surprisingly prepared you for church work or ministry?

Resource Roundup:
Unbound Advent Devotional

For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website

00:03 – Simon Doong

Hello and welcome to a matter of faith of Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question. Because if it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might be a matter of faith,

 

00:21 – Lee Catoe

whether it be faith in God, faith in others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unbound the interactive journal on Christian social justice for the Presbyterian Church, USA. I am your host, Lee Catoe.

 

00:39 – Simon Doong

And I'm your host, Simon Doong.

 

00:41 – Lee Catoe

Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions. Well, hello, everybody, and welcome to the podcast for this week. It is it's always a pleasure to be in your presence. All you listeners out there. And so, yeah, welcome to the podcast and Simon. I'll see your wonderful face. How are you doing?

 

01:04 – Simon Doong

I'm doing all right, Lee, the at the time that we're recording this, it is a slightly Gray, rainy, cloudy day. And for folks that don't know, I like to run. So I was out on the track this morning, doing some running. And it was very wet. My shoes are completely completely soaked. Lane, one of the track was pretty much submerged. So you know what that meant? My shoes were submerged. It didn't mean I was running in the other lands. I still did it in lane one. And it was it was quite wet. But you know, sometimes there is something really, I guess the word would be sort of, like therapeutic, or like calming about running in rain. Even though I don't like being wet. There is sometimes something very nice about it. And so that's one of those experiences today, which was oddly kind of nice. I mean, I'm not grateful about all my stuff being soaked and smelling terrible. But the experience itself was was kind of nice. How about you?

 

02:07 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, there's nothing? Well, there's nothing worse than like wet feet, you know, socks and stuff. It's rainy here too in DC. And one of the things that is always horrible for us is that our dog who doesn't really care about anything, will walk in the rain will do whatever. And he always is soaked when he gets in and I think he just loves it and the Nino in how dogs just like smell anyway like a wet dog. And yeah, so he's a wet dog and smelly. And you know, in the city, there's no telling what's in the water and he didn't care. So it's always really fun. When it starts raining. We have to wipe Rupert off and he doesn't like that because he likes to be dirty. So yeah, it's always an adventure with him. And but it is gloomy. But we have some candles lit and I kind of like a gloomy day sometimes make gives me an excuse not to do anything. But wash clothes.

 

03:12 – Simon Doong

Yeah, well, you know those gloomy days, and they give us an opportunity to not do anything as you said. And speaking of not doing anything or maybe not wanting to get up and change. We have a question related to sort of change. Mm hmm. Written in for today. So our first question reads, “some people refer to Presbyterians as the frozen chosen. What does this mean?” Lee, what do you think the frozen chosen means? And are we the frozen chosen? Which saying are we the frozen chosen? Like that actually sounds like kind of entitled now that I realize and I say but uh, what do you think?

 

03:51 – Lee Catoe

And well, it often is kind of said like that, though, really? And we've kind of you know, we've kind of like hinted on this like a little bit and I feel like we've said this at some point on this podcast probably in the earlier episodes. But it but it is interesting that that that is kind of used as in somewhat of our crutch or like the centerfold for a joke when it's when we're talking about Presbyterians and Presbyterianism and I do think in some ways, you know, like, it is true, but I also think it kind of it dismisses the like, it dismisses the diversity within our tradition, that's one thing but when we're talking about like, what it is, you know, like Presbyterians, stereo typically are you know, are seen as like sitting quiet and you're pews not having this like call and response like a lot of like, maybe Baptist or Pentecostal churches do like raising your hands and like a lot of denominational things like it is very formed. It is very order is very quiet, and there's not a lot of participation in the in the congregational like congregant perspective. But I also think that's a very white way of looking at our tradition. And I'd always have a problem when people say that I can use it as like a blanket statement, because it does negate the black churches in our tradition. It negates the Hispanic churches in our tradition, the Korean churches in our tradition and other and other ethnicities and cultures that encompass what the Presbyterian Church is. And so again, it's like this whiteness has like blanketed a tradition that, you know, not every church is like that. My church wasn't always like that rural churches that have this influence of Pentecostalism, and Baptist, and like, it just all kind of merges. So I do think in some ways, it is this kind of, like, Metropolitan way of thinking about Presbyterianism, so in some ways, it is true, depending on the congregation, that everyone is kind of frozen and steel and but I also think it's very, it's a big blanket statement and negates a lot of other perspectives. That's, that's what I think about it.

 

06:25 – Simon Doong

Yeah. Frozen, referring to the sort of the reliance on things always being decent calm, and in order, not necessarily very physically active during a service. I also think that the frozen part can refer to a desire or maybe lack of desire to change or embrace a new way of doing or being, whether that be in the way that we actually conduct our services, or in the ways that we, that we seek to live out our faith in the world, whether it be in advocacy, or calls to justice, things like that. But what's also kind of interesting about this is that I have heard from folks in other other parts of the reformed tradition, such as the Lutherans, I was talking with someone and they said, I thought we were the frozen shows. And I'm like, Oh, okay. All right. Well, I mean, can we can multiple groups be the frozen shows? And I think the answer is yes, at the end of the day, but it doesn't quite feel so chosen, then. Maybe it just means that we all need to like, work through embracing change and embracing new I new cultures and traditions and practices. So I do think there's something kind of interesting there. I also want to give a perspective, just with a short, short anecdote. Because I know that it's very easy for us to be like, we're the frozen shows and things will never change. That's why the church is dying. That's why young people don't want to join. And there is some truth to that. I was talking, I was talking with a a Mormon, or a member of the Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints faith about the differences in our beliefs, and in our structures a little bit. And this person was very candid with me. And he said that in the Mormon faith, you know, they have what is it? 12? Is it 12? I can't remember, but they have a, they have a hierarchy where there's this sort of it's either a committee or like this group of 12 people. I think it's 12.

 

08:34 – Lee Catoe

I think, yeah, well, we'll do the research. And yeah,

 

08:37 – Simon Doong

they have a group of they have it, yeah, they have a group that sort of sets the direction of their church for their faith. And he said, we move as, and so we have, it's all men, all white men. And he said, we move as fast as the slowest person, which means that we move as fast as, like a 70 year old white man, which I was like, oh, maybe we're not so frozen. But that's also interesting, because again, because like the Mormon in the Mormon faith, they are very mission oriented, you know, sending people out to do work and convert people. So it's also interesting, I'm like, okay, so what is frozen mean? Is it about the ideas of like, how we do mission as well? What is what is the frozen part? And how does that relate to what who we are or who we were in the past who we are now and who we will be, if that makes sense. And I'm always grateful for the sort of the honesty that that that person shared with me because I was always like, oh, yeah, it took us forever to embrace the LGBTQ plus individuals and people with those identities, and we still have a lot of work to do, but there are still other groups that haven't embraced them at all have not welcomed them in. So it's like, okay, we've all got work to do. What it mean to try to to unfreeze ourselves? Can we be the thought chosen at some point? I don't know. What do you think Lee?

 

10:07 – Lee Catoe

I don't know, it is 12, by the way, and well, when I think I mean, I always think of that, like, think of the movie Frozen. And there was like, and that song, let it go. I mean, the whole point of that song was like, like, there was metaphor, and also the physicalness of what is something being frozen. And underneath, whatever is being frozen, there is something that is there, that is still but has the potential to like do more, and has and has been held back. But it takes energy, it takes heat, heat is energy. And if we're going to be scientific about it, we're going to go down that metaphor. Heat is made from molecules in, that are moving at a rapid pace. So it's like action, it's moving, it's doing things, and it's creating this energy that then you know, thaws ice, which is energy that is not moved, it is molecules that are still and that is what creates the frozenness of it. And so if we're gonna use that metaphor, like it's going to take us going to action moving and creating energy. But that also, that also means that we have to move, that means we have to, like, start being active and doing things, whether that be in worship, or whether that be in our actions for justice. That is what creates energy. Like literally, scientifically, that creates energy, and also in movements that creates energy and momentum to create change. But I also think that, as I was saying before, there are many congregations of diversity of different perspectives that have been doing that, you know, are energetic, and their church services that are energetic in the way that they interact with their communities. And I do think in many ways, it is learning from each other. It is it is having those partnerships and those intentional conversations as like, you know, when we say these things like the frozen chosen, and just kind of use them as a joking kind of way, which always bothers me, because it's interesting, because I just listened to another podcast about Dave Chappelle, and the jokes that are being said, that he said about transgender people, and one of the guests on the podcast, they were just saying, well, these are jokes. So what is the line, and the other guests who was transgender was basically saying, like, when you start joking, when you when you instill this kind of culture, that that deep down, you're seeing thing you're seeing, like transgender folks as beneath or below you, and you create these jokes that then create stereotypes that then affect people's lives and how they act and how they are treated. It instills a culture. And so it's, it's not the exact same, but these kinds of jokes within our tradition have kind of perpetuated us to be complacent, perpetuated us to kind of instill this culture that like, Oh, we're the frozen chosen, we sit in the backs a pu, and we don't say anything. That's not everybody's perspective. And I do think it's gonna take, it's gonna have to create that energy to kind of break that, because there is potential there. But it's this outer shell that holds it back, that we want to keep that we want to keep an order that this whiteness wants to keep under control. Another thing about something being frozen, is that it's more controlled, is in its place, simply water. Once water falls, it can be out of control glaciers, we're seeing it right now. Climate change, when those things melt, it creates things that are out of control, and consuming and all these kinds of things. But I think when we're talking about the spirit, that's a good thing. It's like, releasing that so. So yeah, I think we have to begin to think about that. I know it's a little jokes. But those things really do perpetuate in bigger ways, this culture that we kind of create within our tradition, right?

 

14:31 – Simon Doong

Because it starts off as a joke, but then it starts setting an expectation or a standard of behavior that we come to accept. And I think that just goes to say that language matters, the way we describe ourselves matters. The ways that we describe others is really important. And I think everyone probably already knows that. But this is just a small micro example of why things like that. that matter, and why we should be thinking about it more often. And, you know, maybe we what if we just what if we started referring to ourselves as the thought chosen? Or just the thought? Or even or just, we're, you know, if we what if we chose a different language? Would it mean anything? Would it change the expectation about our behavior? And the ways that we choose to embrace the spirit and embrace change or difference?

 

15:26 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, yeah. So I hope people think about that. And as I mean, we're gonna move on to our next question, because this also, this also kind of talks about this embracing of something that is ever changing. And that is the pandemic recently, there was, like an article out, but also, when it comes to the military, and but our question does ask are and say “the Archbishop of the US military, has said that Catholic troops shouldn't be forced to receive the COVID 19 vaccine, if they feel it violates their conscience? What are your thoughts on this? Further? Do you think this is any different from a religious exemption for vaccination?” Now, I have many, many, many thoughts on that. But Simon, what are you what do you think?

 

16:18 – Simon Doong

I think it's, you know, it's tricky, because I do think that I believe in people not doing or doing certain things, because they are feel called to by their faith, like I do take that very seriously. And so I don't want to diminish if someone really feels like this violates my religious principles or practices, I understand that. I also think it's a tricky situation, because I also want to sorry, I went back back up, I also want to say that I support the people that serve in our military and our armed services. Without a doubt, I don't always support the policies of larger, you know, military, industrial complex, and, and, and wars, that we may go in conflicts that we may engage in, but I always support our service, our service men, women, and, and service people, and service siblings, when someone serves in the military, if you go to serve in a country where there's malaria, the military will give you Malaria pills, or, you know, they'll make sure you have your boosters, so that you don't get various diseases, or get sick or other things. And when COVID is something that you can get from anyone else at any time, I'm not entirely sure how this is different from that. And I realized that that is a an opinion, that's a take. But I don't see how it is a whole lot different. And so by following that reasoning, and sort of that logic, I don't see why someone would not get the vaccine, unless they're also refusing these other things, because they feel that it violates their conscience, in which case, I get it, at least they're being they're consistent in the ways that that's being applied. But we get our vaccinations for polio, for smallpox for various things. Why is this different? What do you think Lee? Is it different?

 

18:22 – Lee Catoe

I mean, I personally don't think it's different. And I'll just say that. And I do think, you know, as a form of conscience, and I know, there's kind of this, you know, there's a connection between the way in which these vaccines were developed, you know, using like, embryonic sales, and like, basically, it is kind of traced back to also connect to this, like anti abortion, anti reproductive health kind of thing. So there is kind of that thread through line there that there is kind of these these connections. But I also want to say that there are many drugs, there are many things that you can buy over the counter that were first founded using certain kinds of sales as as a staple for research. So I've heard that within the arguments for religious exemptions. And I also say, then, are you also going to not take all these other things that you probably are, so where is the line in that and for me, it is kind of this political newness to this particular vaccine, which I think is also very dangerous. And for me, and the Christian faith, loving your neighbor, which this is talking about Catholicism, but we all have that in common. Like in in Christian dumb, there is this. Jesus said, Love your neighbor. So it's, these are the ways in which I mean Jesus healed the sick. Jesus didn't want people to die from this disease like that is that is kind of also a foundational thing among every Christian denomination because it's in the Bible. And so I, it's interesting to hear that and to see it happening not only in not only with our Catholic siblings, but other people in different traditions that are using these kinds of, well, it goes against my religion, well, I don't see vaccines, I don't see any of that in the Bible. So it's like, what is what is that kind of mean, and then, as it is connected to, as we are all connected in some form, or fashion, this, this disease is airborne, we all breathe in air, we all have to breathe in order to live. And that is something that connects each of us. And it's also goes back to this idea that it's kind of happened in religion, that it's very individualistic, we've changed into this very individualistic kind of way of doing Christianity, which in the beginning, it was very communal. My actions affect you, what I do affects you. And I don't think we often see that, especially in like you were saying, Simon, with people who will expose people to and be exposed by others, because of just the nature of their jobs and the nature of what they've signed on to do. I do think it also is attached to this kind of extreme militarism, idea to that many cases. You know, and I support people in the military and our veterans, and I have people in my family that are and I don't think we talk about that enough. I don't think we talk about Veterans Affairs and veterans issues and military, people's issues enough in the church. And I'll call out people for that, because I do think it's connected to this, to what our stance as Presbyterians is, has been very anti militarism, I guess, on a national level, I will say in policy ways, which it kind of naturally gravitates towards, we're just not going to talk about any kind of humanization of veterans or military people, that we also need to start talking about more, because I think this will help in that, in that, if we see people, the people who are kind of in, like put into the system that is not beneficial to them, nor to anybody else. And we have this very skewed idea of what pieces I think if we start having all of these conversations, these conversations when it comes to religious exemptions, and vaccine and military will be a lot easier, because we do have this heightened idea of what the military is that they may be exempt from all this other kind of stuff because of this military complex. But but I don't, I don't see the argument that religion can exempt you from this, specifically, when there are so many other things that people partake in people put into their bodies that have a history of having the same research that this vaccine has. I just don't get the connection other than it being very politically driven. And that is very sad. Because we know people who have died from this. We know people, everybody does now. And I think using fate as a vehicle for the perpetuation of that is very, very dangerous.

 

23:53 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, I also want to give some credit to the, by the way, we have a link to sort of the article that describes this, this situation and comments from the archbishop Bishop. And I will give the archbishop credit that he does say, you know, if you don't get vaccinated, you know, you need to keep, you got to keep wearing the masks, make sure you're practicing social distancing, you have to under still undergo regular testing and quarantining where it's necessary, you must continue to act and charity for your neighbors and for the gaming. And the common good, by undertaking means to mitigate the spread of COVID 19. So it's not like he's saying, Oh, well, if you think it violates your conscience, you shouldn't be wearing masks and you shouldn't be doing these other things, either. So there is some recognition of the nuance and the gravity of the situation, which I appreciate because sometimes people throw the whole the baby out with the bathwater, and they're like, Oh, well, you don't believe in that. Well, don't do any of it. And that's not what is being said here. I also just think that I just hope that when people are thinking about things like this, that they pray about it and that may sound weird, why would I pray about something that I feel in my, my religion already compels me to, to make a choice one way or the other, because I think that none of these things are, well, just some of us these things are very clear and to other people they're not. And sometimes I think with prayer and some discernment that can help us lead to a clearer or better understanding of our conscience and what our faith is calling us to do. So I just hope that anyone who is in this situation that they do that, and also talk to other folks, not necessarily about what they think, but what did they feel called to do? And why? Because I think that that leads to productive conversation around call, faith, religion, and responsibility and the relationship between all of those, which may open our ideas about what actions should we be taking as people of faith, and if someone does all of that, and they land on the spot where they're like, I really, really don't want to get vaccinated, I don't see how it, how my, how my faith, or my religion would compel me to do that. That is their choice. I do respect that. But also remember that that doesn't mean that you, you know, remember the other things, as we have said that you also have may have done as part of your occupation, did those things violate your, your conscience? and reflect on that a little bit? Because I think self reflection is also something that is helpful in terms of thinking about our behaviors, and our choices, and why they matter to us. And what matters to us in terms of, you know, the decisions we make, and the theologies behind it.

 

26:40 – Lee Catoe

Mm hmm. I think, I think if we start having more conversation, you know, I've heard when people do dive COVID. And I've heard this from my family, and I've heard it from other people that, well, that was in God's plan. And I am not saying that I know, the inner workings of God. And I'm not saying I am a, I am an expert in theology, because I'm not. I think theology is ever evolving. But I also think that there that, that in some ways, this idea that, you know, suffering and death, and, and all of these things are being used by God for some plan, to make us think or to make us be better people. I really struggle with that. And I really struggle with that kind of rhetoric, because it also dismisses our play our role, and in this thing we call faith. We have a part in this. I mean, if we believe in incarnation, we believe in the intermingling of humanity and divinity. We are we have a part to play in all of this. We can't just sit back and say, This is God's plan, like, Well, God needed an angel, or that it was just part of the plan. Like for me, that is, that is being passive, that is not being a fully active person in faith. Because I just can't believe that right now. I can't believe that that isn't God's plan. Because I've seen so much suffering from it. And I might even refuse to believe that that isn't God's plan. And I hope that we can have continual conversations. Because this is not something to kind of play with. Like, that's what I keep telling people like, this isn't this isn't like, this isn't just like a play thing. Like millions of people have died from this. And and we've had the gift of science and mind and intellect to create these things that help us continue to live and flourish. And so I also hope we have the theological conversations about this because because in many ways people are dying from it. And so that is also my hope that like he said, some people are praying about it, but I hope we think really hard because people are dying and will continue to die from it.

 

29:47 – Simon Doong

Well, we're so excited to be joined by a very special guest today. Joining us is April Martin, the Director of Youth Ministries and the associate for congregational engagement and Madison Avenue Presbyterian Church in New York. April, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

 

30:06 April Martin

Thank you so much for having me, Simon. And Lee.

 

30:08 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, it's so good to meet you. And we do have a question from our listeners out there. And I think this is this will be a good one. Our listener asks, “not all people who work in the church necessarily have a theological or seminary background, but still do great work. What are skills that you have learned in a non church related job, for example, another industry or sector that surprisingly prepared you for church work or ministry?”

 

30:39 – April Martin

Sure. So I grew up Presbyterian. My mom was a minister grandfather was a minister, my sister is currently a minister. So church has been a huge part of my life. But I went to college for music education, and sang in choirs and did a lot of solo work. And that led me to pursuing a degree in opera performance. And I've been able to study abroad some and work with different opera houses and symphonies and orchestras for about 10 years before taking this job as the Director of Youth Ministries at Madison Avenue Presbyterian Church in New York City. So I, while I was singing, and traveling a lot around all over the United States in southern Europe, I learned a lot about telling stories and connecting with people that I think I infuse into what I teach the teenagers at youth group. I learned a lot of life skills when I worked as the resident director for a dormitory right after graduate school in Cleveland. So I supervised for resident assistants for college students, older college students, and 90 freshmen and sophomore music majors, who were for the first time basically on their own, and navigating what they wanted to do with their lives, whether they wanted to continue pursuing music, or if they wanted to become a doctor or something else. And I grew a lot in that field, I learned a lot about suicide ideation and people that mixed drugs with all sorts of things and how to properly care for them, and when to send them to counselors. And I think a lot of the lessons I learned during those two years while I was also singing have helped me in this job with the teenagers and just working with a congregation in New York City, who are these teenagers are much more mature and more way more independent than I was as a 12. Through 18 year old, I also worked for the Lyric Opera of Kansas City in the development department, I was an intern. And they found out that I was obviously very passionate about opera and telling stories. And so they put me in charge of giving a lot of tours of our spaces and kind of getting people excited about the operatic world and the stories that we were telling on the stage. And that has really worked into my work here in that I am often paired with graders in the north x of the church to listen to people's stories to remember their names to remember what they do for a living and kind of a glimpse of who they are. And I think some of that I learned growing up standing beside my mom as she greeted people after worship, but some of it I learned in my work as an opera singer and work as a resident director and work in this internship in the development department of an opera company.

 

33:40 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, so before I did anything in ministry, I managed a restaurant for three years. And I always say that that was the biggest learning experience I ever had when it came to, you know, using the skills that you learn from that job and how to apply it to ministry, because within theological education, you don't get that you don't get the kind of the classes about finances and management and all the things that you're thrust into when you are when you answer the call or follow your call into a church and the congregation and I've talked to so many people who wish they had, you know, taken a class or had some sort of experience. And I just, I also I just wondered, does our you know, how we prepare people and kind of the church in lead these leadership roles. Like we can learn so much from other places of work, I think, and it's really fascinating that your job and opera and all the things that have come along with that and I know people who have one in like music industry being living Nash in Nashville, where it's a little bit different, but it's all kind of, it's kind of similar in some ways that so many of those skills you learned entertainment or arts really do kind of transfer and apply to ministry. So I think that's very fascinating. 

 

35:23 – April Martin

And exactly like you have. I mean, when I was working for opera companies, people would put me, the owners of the opera companies, when I was a young artist would put me with donors, they would send me out to go have lunch or dinner with donors, because they knew I was really enthusiastic about my art form. And donors have questions. And if they get to know the opera singer, they're more likely to come and watch me perform on stage, even if I'm in the chorus, even if I'm the leading role, it kind of doesn't matter. And so I guess, a lot of those relational skills, I learned, they're definitely applied to how I interact with the congregation and my colleagues. And people that I just meet on the street that might be interested in trying our church out that I also wanted to bring up that opera companies are very similar to churches in that we have a lot of people of all generations, but the people that come really regularly are often of an older generation to both, and the people who subscribe to opera companies usually make pledges and give to the church. So a lot of the skills of, again, learning about the people and getting them excited about opera and our church. I feel like it's just kind of the same thing. And so it's been great to be able to use those skills in that experience in my current work with the church.

 

36:46 – Simon Doong

would you So would you say in terms of thinking about young people, you know, a, we hear we know the trend that young people aren't attending church as much. I don't know if that trend is also the same in terms of young people being interested in opera. Would you say that that's, that's a that's a trend in the operatic world as well?

 

37:08 – April Martin

Yeah, it absolutely is. And both industries, if you could call them that are investing resources, time and energy and people into bringing in younger audiences, when I was singing, we would do First Fridays, we do little clips from whatever opera we were working on, have free food have like selfie stations, different ways for people to interact, and come out on a Friday night and experience just a glimpse of opera and get to know the real people behind it. And my church here just did a block party two weeks ago, where we were doing the same thing, we're giving them like just a little snippet, and food and a community, which I think is something you have in both fields. So yeah, I totally think that both are using whatever resources they have to try to get people excited about the future of opera and our church and especially younger people, younger generations.

 

38:04 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, it's, it really is so interesting, that, you know, we often just kind of disconnect, we often like, set up like the dichotomy of church and then like secular, you know, like, there you have, like, there's, there's not a lot of spaces to where, you know, where you're allowed to kind of merge those things and how those things intermingle and, and all this kind of stuff. And that's the one thing that we try to do on this podcast is, I mean, in a couple of episodes before this, we, you know, we talk about Halloween, and we talk about, like television shows, and all these things that kind of inner that influence us. And definitely, like, speaks to our moralities and speaks to our, you know, experiences as humans. And so I think, listening to you talk, I think, I just wished that like the church would invite you know, like, different ways of, you know, doing the work, whether it be in the arts or whatever, and having a conversation about skills and what we can learn from each other instead of it always kind of being this either or kind of thing, religious and secular. I just think I just think we would benefit so much from it specifically if we're not equipping people, you know, in our theological institutions with practical ways of doing you know, church or people skills or you know, any kind of thing like that. So I just think that's very fast. I also offer it's very fascinating to me too. And I think this is so interesting. What what this is just kind of a random thing. So what is your favorite opera? Like what what is like your your favorite?

 

39:57 – April Martin

I think probably La Traviata. If you seem Pretty Woman. It's the same story and even at the end, that's what Richard Gere plays for Julia Roberts. I forget their character names. But he plays something from La Traviata. It's the fallen woman, about a woman who dies of tuberculosis, but falls in love and has some joyous moments. And then she dies for about a half hour at the end. And yeah, it's just it's neat to see kind of her journey through the whole three hours, I think that's what I love so much about opera is bringing so many different elements, the singing, the orchestra, the costumes, the wigs, the set, the like, what time period? Are you going to set it in? And are you doing it in the original language are you doing in English, and then just how moving the music is. And I would also argue that in, in church services, people, like people go sometimes to feel something, they need comfort, or they need joy, or they need to be sad, and they need to be around people that can be there for them. And I think people go to musicals, or they go to see a play or a movie or something, because they may we want to feel something a little bit more than what they're currently feeling. So there's another kind of bridge, I guess, between the operatic or music world and the church world.

 

41:24 – Simon DOong

I think that also relates to a question that we've talked about previously on the on the podcast that the Lee was sort of getting at, which is, you can everyone can encounter, or have a spiritual experience in places that are not just church. And I think it's fascinating to the idea of having a spiritual experience while while at an opera are while performing. In an opera, I'll be honest, I don't know a whole lot about opera myself, I have a relative who was who was very active in an opera in a previous position, and still does a lot with it. But I don't know a whole lot. But I know that, as you were saying musicals or films, or sometimes, you know, going for that run on Sunday morning, that can be a spiritual experience for folks. And I think the more ways that we expose ourselves to opportunities and to experience new things, we may be able to, to have a greater understanding of spiritual experiences that may be can better inform us as we go about our lives in ways that we didn't expect.

 

42:30 – April Martin

Yeah. 100%.

 

42:32 – Simon Doong

I also wonder, April, I know you mentioned the importance of telling stories as a sort of as like a pillar of of, or foundational saying that you you sort of really enjoyed and learned about through some of your experiences. I wonder, is there a particular sort of pivotal moment or story that you think or experience that you think about in in your work, either an opera, or previously that like, maybe either helped you prepare you for ministry? Or just gave you like, a just was very helpful in terms of learning, if that makes sense? Because sometimes people have those.

 

43:11 – April Martin

Yeah, I mean, I think as I'm like, studying and prepping for youth group, or Bible studies that I lead, or just to talk about church in church, I, a lot of various kind of songs that I learned about Jonah being in the belly of the whale, or I don't know, they just they keep popping up. And I realized how musically inclined and how much that was nurtured when I was a kid. And most of the Bible stories, I still know, have some musical element. I learned them that way. So I guess I guess that's my answer, sort of, to your question, Simon. Because yeah, I think as I'm learning more about church and the Bible and how to make it accessible, I think that's that feels like my mission in life. It used to be an Excel is like how to make opera accessible, and so that people can get it. I feel like it's the same with church. And I feel like my mission is just kind of shifted a little bit. So if we can tell an engaging story, or get teenagers or kids or even adults involved, and playing characters or thinking putting themselves in the mindset of a character, then they're going to remember it. And it's not just going to be that they learned a song about it one time, it'll be Hey, remember that youth group where we actually had bowls of water and we were talking about Jesus washing his disciples feet, and like there was IV and there were candles and we put ourselves around a table like we were the disciples. Yeah, I know that story from the Bible. I could tell you how it is because I've tried to put myself there in a character which I think is a total bleed over from all my work on stage with amazing directors and spending time watching movies and reading librettos and like just trying to absorb I'm definitely infusing that into what I do with youth in our lessons/

 

45:01 – Lee Catoe

yeah. And I love that the idea of, you know, the accessibility of it and like, and I don't think a lot of people don't realize like the Bible was kind of perfect. I mean, the Bible was performative. And who knows, maybe there were songs. I mean, we don't know how they were hailed that how they perform them. But I do remember, I remember going to my first opera, and it was like, three years ago, so I'm very new. And I think the name was to toe ska. Tosca, right. And, and then I went to so I'm not sure what the language I'm assuming it was Italian maybe. And, and then a couple weeks later, we went to I think it was Savannah. It's like an all it's like, blue. Like, it was like set and like Appalachian. But it was all an opera in English by Carlos Zanna. That's what it was. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, that word. I had no idea. Like, we had no idea what that was. And the emotional roller coaster we went on. Like, I looked at my partner, and I was like, this was not this was not what I was expecting. And, and, but but I got that, you know, you got it. It's so impressive. The singing the entire time, while acting while like yeah, you know, like being emotive, I did get a lot out of that. And it was very, like emotional and spiritual, and all these types of things. So but but it is that performative aspect that real, I will never forget that, like, I will never forget that play. And, and I my entire life, because it was so impactful. But it had to do with that like accessibility and that performance and really the embodiment of it all. And I wish we would do that more in our stories and our narratives. And because I feel like that's what it was originally they did. And how do we get back to that?

 

47:09 – April Martin

It makes it sticky. It makes the story sticky, are like lighting candles at Christmas Eve makes that tradition sticky. Yeah.

 

47:19 – Simon Doong

I also just appreciate what you said about like, when you perform a role, or if you try to inhabit a role of a character or from a perspective, it helps you remember the story, but also like, what did you feel? How do you think think that character felt? And obviously, not everyone can get up there and sing an opera the way that an opera singer does, but thinking about that same technique, and that same perspective applied to youth ministry, where it's like, Hey, today, you're Peter. And you're gonna, you're gonna have faith for about half a second, and then you're gonna sink in the water. How did you feel about that? What do you think that looks like? How do you think Peter felt? The the ability to sort of, not just put yourself in someone's shoes, maybe empathize a little bit, or at least wonder. I think that's really powerful, because that's also what we need to be able to do in terms of the ways we relate to each other, let alone to to people from a long time ago. So I, I just always find that really interesting in the performing arts and the ways that you're describing applying it to ministry just they make so much sense. 

 

48:28 – April Martin

Right, and they're actually there are operas based on biblical things, Samson and Delilah, which I've not been in, but I've been in dialogues of the Carmelites, about a bunch of nuns who were beheaded. I think during the French Revolution, this was a long time ago in grad school. But I just that opera is I think, similar to Susanna that it takes you on a huge journey it's in we did, we did it in English that was specifically written to be sung in the vernacular of the audience. So there are different translations of French and English and I think Italian. But my grad school, we did it in English. And I just remember friends who'd never been to an opera, I invited them because it was an English and they were blown away at how accessible it was that way. And they saw this story unfold and all the the tragedy of it, but then there are a couple of characters that bring a lot of joy kind of in the middle. And so when I'm looking at a story in the Bible, I feel like I try to highlight those characters too, even when there's tragedy and ask people to put themselves in kind of different shoes.

 

49:33 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, well, I hope, whoever's whoever's listening. And if you've had a vocation before ministry, and and I don't know, I feel like some people think that. I don't know. I do think it kind of just like permeates our life anyway. But I feel like a lot of people will compartmentalize their vocations in some ways. And I think just giving people permission to like, let those things merge. Because I do think it brings, you know, it brings a whole nother perspective, it adds to your skill set in ministry. And in many ways things are very, very similar. And so I'm very appreciative of this conversation. And I'm so glad that you joined us. Because there are so many people out there who are, you know, trying to figure things out. And any way you can kind of tap into the things you've learned, as you've kind of figured out where you need to be. I think that's always very important. So thank you for Yeah, thank you for sharing. And, yeah, all the art stuff that you've done. That's amazing.

 

50:39 – April Martin

Thank you. I love that. Yeah. You just have to kind of give permission or give yourself permission to bring your past your present and your future all into what you're doing at this very moment. Exciting.

 

50:50 – Simon Doong

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being with us today. April.

 

50:53 – April Martin

Thank you so much for having me. It is so great to get to chat with you all. And thank you for having me on this podcast. It's awesome to be here.

 

51:04 – Simon Doong

So for our resource Roundup, segment, Lee, tell us about a special Advent devotional that you've been working on for unbound that I think folks will really, really appreciate.

 

51:17 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, thanks, Simon. So right now, it is out. The Advent at the unbound Advent devotional for this year, we always come out with one so last year, it was the womanist Advent devotional which is still up and people can still use that. But this year we are we are premiering another Advent devotional called another road. An immigrant and refugee Advent devotional which features people who have had that experience as immigrants and refugees, rotting and reflecting on the lectionary for this Advent season. But it also goes through Christmas. Christmas is not just one day, y'all, it is a season. And so we are writing throughout Christmas. And we are also writing to introduce epiphany, which is also a season and so the Advent devotional goes through Advent, Christmas, and then epiphany. And we have some amazing writers that are writing for us. And some of some of the writing will come midweek. But most of the writing will come during the Sundays of Advent, Christmas, and then epiphany. And then we'll have a couple that are midweek and we will also have reflections on Christmas Eve Christmas Day, New Years. And then we will again we'll have one for epiphany. So I hope you join us on the journey. Keep a lookout on our social media. So you go to Instagram at Justice unbound. And then on Facebook, you can find us and Twitter it's at unbound justice. Somebody had taken justice sundown so slipped. And so keep a lookout for that. But go on the website, you can go to Justice unbound.org/another road with a hyphen. So it's another hyphen road. And yeah, check it out and join us for this Advent season. And we hope that again, you all have a good Advent season as we are preparing to usher in the little baby Jesus that is coming into the world and leading up to that journey. So yeah, I hope you join us on another road and keep a lookout and check out the website which we will post in the show notes.

 

53:38 – Simon Doong

This has been the matter of faith podcast brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so at Faith podcast@pcusa.org. We look forward to hearing from you see you next time.

 

53:53 – Lee Catoe

See you next time y'all.

 

54:18 – Simon Doong

Hey, everyone, thanks for listening to Episode 41. If a matter of faith a Presby podcast don't forget to subscribe and your preferred podcast platform.

 

54:27 – Lee Catoe

And don't forget to leave us a review. It really does help us bring more content like this to you. And yes, we prefer some stars and we prefer five stars. So leave us some reviews and leave us five stars.

 

54:43 – Simon Doong

And if you have a question, feel free to write it into us at Faith podcast@pcusa.org We look forward to hearing your questions.