A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Welcome to A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us and it just might be a matter of faith. Whether it be faith in God, faith in others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Office of Faith-Based Investing & Corporate Engagement, the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program, and Unbound: An Interactive Journal on Christian Social Justice for the Presbyterian Church (USA). Submit questions to faithpodcast@pcusa.org. LISTENING GUIDES FOUND IN PODCAST SHOW NOTES.
A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Commissioned Ruling Elders w/ Rick Spielman
This week we talk about the latest sports stories and the recent fight for reproductive justice and health for all.
Question for the Week:
When you get older, sometimes you reflect on life. What have you reflected on when reaching certain age or career milestones? How should the church reflect as well?
Special Guest: (22:50)
Rick Spielman, Commissioned Lay Pastor/Commissioned Ruling Elder, Kendall Presbytery (Eastern Idaho)
Guest Question:
What is a Commissioned Lay Pastor/Commissioned Ruling Elder? What are the opportunities and challenges of being in this position?
Along the Road Podcast
For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website
Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast. The podcast where we respond to your questions around faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and send us your question. Why should they do that, Lee?
Speaker 2:Because if it matters to you and it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith, which, you know, that's what this podcast is all about. So there you go.
Speaker 1:There it is. Might be a matter of faith. Gotta love it.
Speaker 2:Indeed.
Speaker 1:Gotta love it. How are you Lee?
Speaker 2:I'm doing all right. Uh, we were just talking earlier and I just feel like my brain just not working today,<laugh>. So I'm just kind of like in a cloud. I'm sitting here drinking my a Japanese soda drink that I'm like addicted to now and that's wonderful.
Speaker 1:Wait, you gotta, you gotta show me what it looks like.
Speaker 2:It
Speaker 1:For our listeners at home, what
Speaker 2:Is it? Is the brand. It's like, uh, Chok and it is uh, a Jo Sparkling drink. I think that's how you pronounce it. And it's kind of a, I think Ume is kind of like a plum. It says a unique fruit with natural organic acids, minerals and vitamins. It's a superfruit in Japan.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:And it's, it's very tany and delicious
Speaker 1:Because that sounds good. I have water
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah, well I usually don't drink a lot of sodas, but these are like, there's a Japanese market just down the street and they're so good. So good. So yeah, it's kind of my new thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Something that I really liked when I was in Learned, I liked when I was in Korea was aloe drinks. Yeah. Supposedly. I think they also help with certain digestive processes as well. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but I always found them to be pretty expensive in the States.
Speaker 2:Yeah. These are kind pricey<laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But then randomly at the discount grocery store, not too far from where I live, I found an aloe drink. It was three for a dollar. Yeah. I was like, that's pretty good. Which is interesting because it's three for a dollar for a single, like a single bottle. But if you buy a pack of 12, it's a dollar per bottle.
Speaker 2:So you get a little deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah. If you buy individually, not if you buy a bulk, which seems backwards. Maybe they're just trying to offload stock, but I'm not complaining because I got some good allo drink.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. But that's
Speaker 2:A good treat. Good
Speaker 1:Treat. It's a good, it is a good treat. But you know what I am kind of complaining about Lee, it's some stuff in the news from this past week and as folks probably know, I do enjoy sports and paying attention to the sports world. And this past week, me, the Memphis Grizzlies, Ja Morant was seen on Instagram again with a gun in hand. Might have been brandishing it. I haven't seen the video, I don't wanna see the video. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. But this is the second time in the last year that he's done this. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because one, a lot of our work and some of our talk has been about gun violence prevention. And so waving a gun around is not a good thing in general. And it's especially not good when you have a platform and a following like Jah has. And also when you have a sort of a responsibility to be a good role model.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Also, he has a lot to lose. I think he is about to kick into a new multimillion dollar contract. I don't know what he's doing, but we always say our politicians should be better and our system should be better. We should also hold that standard for our athletes. So I don't know, but<laugh>, I don't even know what else to say on that. I'm just like,
Speaker 2:But I also wanted to bring up, so there's a lot of things happening in the country. Well, and as, as it pertains to reproductive rights specifically now in the North Carolina legislature, which has not been too bad lately, but has recently banned abortion past 12 weeks, overriding the governor's veto. There are court appeals being heard in Texas about blocking abortion pills. And then there's like all this other stuff that's happening. And so as a entity that promotes the reproductive health of all people who may be able to have a child to have autonomy over their bodies. And so we as people of faith and as church leaders should be speaking up and speaking out and promoting, uh, reproductive justice and reproductive health for all people who can bear a child. And so that's stuff that's happening. And a lot of this is undergirded by kind of bad theologies and theological arguments that are relatively new. This is a relatively new thing because as we've talked about in other podcast episodes, this hasn't been a thing until a recent modern time. So I think that's something, if you need to go back and listen to those, they're really great conversations that we had about reproductive justice. But yeah, I just wanted to mention that because it's happening continually now. Again, just, you know, say something, speak up as we always will.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, Lee, sometimes we hope that we will just get, um, come. This is a terrible segue. Wow. Struggling. I have that symbol and you know, the buffering symbol<laugh>, it's like my mind right now as I try to make this segue. But you know, buffering is part of when you're waiting or trying to download an update and there is nothing better than an update like getting older.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And Simon's gotten older.
Speaker 1:I've gotten older in the span of 24 hours, not in the past 24 hours, but in the span of somehow just one day I advanced a whole new decade.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You are in your thirties now, so congratulations. You've joined, you've joined the the 30 club.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yep. I'm old folks and by Presbyterian standards I am still very young. Well,
Speaker 2:You're still very young by church standards. We're still both very young. Yeah. I've got five years on you though.
Speaker 1:Yep. I was talking to a colleague of ours on a Zoom call earlier and he said, well, you know, fifties the new thirties, so that means you're like 15.
Speaker 2:Is it<laugh>?
Speaker 1:Oh no, that's what he said. Well, speaking of getting older, we do have a question written in just about this topic. And the question reads, when you get older, sometimes you reflect on life. What have you reflected on when reaching certain age or career milestones or life milestones for that matter? How should the church reflect as well? And I think this is kind of an interesting question. Again, I recently entered my thirties and I was telling, uh, some folks that if you had told me 10 years ago that I'd be doing what I'm doing right now, I wouldn't have believed you. Which makes me also wonder if 10 years from now, if you told me what I will be doing, if I would believe you maybe. I think it's very easy to have this idea in your mind of what you will be doing of the, the people that will be in your community, the things you've done and seen. And then you just reach that age and you were entirely wrong unless you were on a path like trying to become a doctor because you, that is a fairly like outlined, straightforward, also rigorous process.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>
Speaker 1:That is more difficult to get out of once you start. Not impossible, but
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh yeah. So I thought that's what I was gonna do,<laugh>. Yeah. I did not, this is not the plan for me either.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Well, it's also interesting because I know a lot of folks in the church world, for example, who are pastors, some of them went to seminary right outta college. Yeah. And we also know lots of folks that become pastors sort of as second careers or later on in life. So it just goes to show you that regardless of whatever age or career or milestone you reach, you never know where the spirit's gonna take you in the end.
Speaker 2:That's very true. I do wish there were like a little more opportunity and a l and more spaces to kind of like discern as you're going through things. I feel like a lot of the time we don't have processes or ways to productively discern what we want to do or giving our, giving ourselves permission to do so. Like there are times where I look back when I was like in my twenties and like going to college, it's like I wish I would've had a little more guidance or a little more freedom to kind of explore beforehand, before I kind of jumped on this type of work. Um, because it took me a while to find it and I'm still not convinced this is what I'll always do. Like I've never, I've never been one to kind of narrow be so like narrowly focused, like, this is the only thing I want to do that's not, that's just not how I've been in my life. I've always just kind of gone with the flow and figured out kind of where opportunities kind of pop up and if you want to take advantage of them. So yeah. I feel like that's very different than some folk. But I feel like that's generational though with us. Yeah. Like we are not, it's very different than maybe people in an older generation than we are.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I do think that particularly the baby boomer generation and older, there was sort of a standard that you stuck with one employer for life. Mm-hmm. You worked your way up within the one company or the one employer, the one organization. And that's really changed. People tend to move laterally across multiple organizations over the span of their careers. Something else I appreciate that you said is that you don't, you're not totally convinced that this is what you'll always be doing. Yeah. And that also implies there's some wisdom to that because it implies also that you haven't entirely figured it all out. Oh, no. And I think that's something else that we, when you're young, you think, oh, by X age or by X time in my life, I'll have figured everything out for myself, who I am, what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, who I'm doing it with. But the fact of the matter is that a lot of us spend that figuring out for our whole lives.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Which in some ways is freeing and other ways is kind of terrifying because I think that we like to think that when we hit a certain age or a time in our lives, there's like a standard that we have to be at.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's, I mean, that's like a lot of pressure that comes off. And so when I get questions like this, I don't, I don't know, cuz there's not a lot of things that I would necessarily regret or there's not a lot of things that I would necessarily like do differently because I think, you know, things happen and you can't change it. So it's like harping on what ifs is like really hard and I think could, it sends things into a spiral. So when I reflect on things, I think for me it's just all about what you've learned. But also at the same time, I'm, I don't have career goals or milestones simply because, or I might have different kinds cuz I don't think for me advancing or climbing like a hierarchical ladder or dealing with like bureaucratic stuff within the workplace, that's not a game I wanna play. And so I think my goals are very much for myself and not necessarily, you know, for kind of like career advancement, anything. So I think for me it, I think as it pertains to the church, I wish it was more like that. I mean, I wish the church's goals were less of how do you advance in this world because it's always a numbers game. I think a lot of times, like we had the conversation last week about the decline in membership and I think, you know, reflecting on that and looking back on stuff like that can get you into the numbers game. And how should the church reflect on the things that it has done in the past? I mean, I think it ha I think it has a lot to learn, but in many ways it hasn't reflected and we just repeat the same things we've always done. And so I think that that's, uh, an important thing to realize about the church when it's looking back. It's not necessarily looking back in despair or looking back in kind of longing for the, for the times gone by when churches were full and all those things because it wasn't perfect then either. So it's, it's one of those things that I think how do you reflect what you learn from it specifically when it comes to the church? Cuz church has a lot to learn and, and I think sometimes it gets called in the, well this is where we need to be, or because we were there because we were there then, and this is what it could be now. So we can do what we used to do then. So it's always based on the past, it's never based on like a future that is inevitable. You know what I mean? So. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's also easy to look back, like you were saying and say, oh, when mainline Protestant Christian denominations were the thing and there was lots of people in our pews and we didn't even have to try that hard to get people into the pews. It's easy to look back and think, oh, we had it figured out then, but maybe we didn't start now<laugh>. And we're seeing now with growth in, for example, the evangelical churches. They have figured it out. Yeah. They figured out what works to get people to come to church or to be a part of their communities. And that's something that the mainline denominations now have to figure out. Yeah. So I just think it's easy to get complacent and think you figured it out because things are going well and that's not necessarily true. Like you were saying, there were, there were issues then too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And age for me, I mean, I respect my elders of course if they respect me, but I don't think age the amount of, what was the word? So I listened to a podcast the other day and they reframed aging. It's, how long have you lived? Or like something like that. I can't remember. But I don't think, or what have you experienced in your life? I don't think age is necessarily something that should be about the numbers gain either. Because yes, you may have lived longer than me, but I may have experienced a lot more than you have. I think that that's a thing that I always grapple with, with the church because as young people we're kind of, we're not empowered because of how young we are. And I don't, and and it's only because of numbers and it's only because of, well, you don't have this much experience and this, this and this. And it's like, well, we have experienced a lot within our generation. And I think that that is something that's a little different. And I think with age, I wish the church would reflect on it more. And what does that mean? Because younger people in the church are kind of not empowered at all. I don't think so I think it's important for the church in general to really have a conversation about ageism and more than just discrimination against people who are older, but also the other way around. Because I do think in many ways the church is scared to empower young people because they don't wanna let go of some things that I don't think work very well. So that's another way to kind of reflect on this conversation. But we're not that young<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Right. We're, we're not that young in, in the grand scheme of things. We're on the younger end, but we are not young.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And this country is not old. That's another thing. This, this country is not old and this denomination is not old. A lot of American denominations are not old. And I think, like if y'all wanna look back and reflect, you should look at the churches in the UK and Europe and other places around the world where they've been doing church for a long time and it's not in a good state. It's really not in certain countries. Um, so, so yeah. Go look, reflect, that's what we should do. But Simon, you're not old. You're just in a different time. I like my thirties.
Speaker 1:I hope, I like my thirties. I liked my twenties
Speaker 2:<laugh>.
Speaker 1:And like you, I don't really, I didn't really do anything that I would regret or I do regret, which I'm grateful for. But even I, I also wonder sometimes that we can get afraid of doing things that we might regret later and mm-hmm.<affirmative>, I don't know if regret is the right word. It's like, sometimes it's just things that you learn
Speaker 2:Yeah. You
Speaker 1:Learn from
Speaker 2:Yeah. And like goals and all these things that organizations set and like all these like things that I honestly don't know how helpful that is. I just really don't because you never know what's gonna happen. Yeah. And it can often be limiting, you know, e even in my own life, I've learned that no matter how much I plan, it's not gonna come out that way. It really isn't. Well, you could kind of have like a trajectory of kind of where you want to be, but when it comes down to it, we're all people. What does it mean to be a church that goes with the spirit and not necessarily kind of give into this very corporate way of doing things where we're setting goals and we have to do all this other stuff? Like what does that mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, just look at, just look at a couple of the things that have happened in our lifetimes as millennials nine 11, the great recession<laugh>
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.<affirmative> Pandemic. Covid.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Covid and the Pandemic.
Speaker 2:We've seen a lot. Internet, social media. Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of things. There's
Speaker 2:A lot of things we've seen
Speaker 1:And not that generations older than us that are still alive aren't experiencing those things on top of the other things that they've Right. Experienced in their lives. But that is our experience that those events are ma are even more major miles milestones or just events that happen within our shorter lifetimes.
Speaker 2:Right. And so it's compact, it's like, yeah, it's happening
Speaker 1:Rapidly and, and it happened while our brains were developing, particularly those events had happened before we were 20.
Speaker 2:Right. And you can imagine the, the generations like after us, like, I can't imagine like developing and during, uh, the pandemic and then like the social unrest and like all this stuff, climate crisis, it's like all happening. And you know, there's all these things we can reflect on, but the church needs to do a lot of reflecting, I think might help us.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well folks, why don't you write in and let us know what you've reflected on when reaching certain age or career mi career milestones in your own life. And let us know how you think this church should be reflecting on its life and its work and as it's thinking about moving forward in, well, it's not a new decade for the church, but it's a new decade for me. So as moving forward into the future,
Speaker 2:And we're so excited for our guest this week, we have Rick Spielman, who is a commissioned lay pastor and commissioned ruling elder in Kendall Presbytery in eastern Idaho. And Rick is here to talk to us about what being a commissioned lay pastor or ruling elder is and where the opportunities and challenges. We had a great conversation with Rick. And we also wanna remind everybody that the Office of the General Assembly, which is also a part of the Presbyterian Church USA, has a podcast called Along the Road. And it is specifically created for leaders in the P C U S A. So if you are a pastor or a ruling elder or a commission ruling elder or somebody who works in the presbytery or a Senate or all these things, Presbyterian, you should check out along the road because it's a great resource for leaders in the church to get connected and to maybe share and learn about some resources that our denomination has. And so yeah, check out and subscribe to along the road and we hope you enjoy this conversation with Rick.
Speaker 1:Well, we are so excited to be joined on this episode of a Matter of Faith, the Presby podcast by a very, very special guest. Joining us is Rick Spielman, who is a commission lay pastor slash commission ruling elder in Kendall Presbytery, which is in eastern Idaho. Rick, we are so grateful to have you with us on the podcast and for our listeners, uh, this episode might get a little bit technical into some of the Presbyterian language, but we'll do our best to keep the conversation, uh, not too in the weeds, if that makes sense. But we're so grateful that Rick is here with us to, to talk with us.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm happy to be here. Um, it was, uh, I was, I was grateful for the invitation. Uh, hopefully we'll have some, uh, something to say about, uh, some of the, some of the difficulties it is to, for church leadership in especially in, in areas like, uh, like Eastern Idaho, my Presbyterian, Kendall Presbyterian and other similar, um, smaller, um, more he'd call a rural, but, uh, not so urban centers of, of, of the church.
Speaker 2:We're, we're so grateful you're here, Rick, and it's really good to meet you and someone who is from the rural world. Um, I'm looking forward to hearing a lot of this conversation and talking with you about it. But we wanted to start off with the question and the question reads, what is a commissioned lay pastor slash commissioned ruling elder? What are the opportunities and challenges of being in this position? So, so yeah, what is that, Rick? Because I would like to be clarified on that too.
Speaker 3:<laugh>, you know, there are times I'd like to be clarified on what that means as well.<laugh>, um, the real basic definition, if you will, or of a commission ruling elder and lay pastor or lay pastor, um, it's simply, um, a person who has been, well<laugh> hate to use the, uh, definition for the definition, but then commissioned be given a special charter, if you will, to perform pastoral services that are normally provided by an ordained, you know, minister award in sacrament to a specific church. Uh, we aren't necessarily, we're not MDivs masters of divinity. We haven't gone to school necessarily for, uh, with training for preaching and that type of thing. But, uh, hopefully the, the layperson, uh, shown certain skills, certain abilities, certain gifts, uh, for leadership that, uh, could be useful to a church that simply does not have the resources to, uh, uh, to call a, uh, to call a pastor an ordained, uh, minister to their, to their church. One of the things, the, one of the requirements is you have to have been ordained as a ruling elder for the church, hence the term commissioned ruling elder. We've been back and forth within the peace U S A and the book of order about what to call us, whether it be a commissioned lay pastor cuz we are late leadership or to be called a commissioned ruling elder. So either term is fine. I think, I think currently we're still commissioned ruling elders. I'm, it it, depending on what year it is, it kind of goes back and forth to become one's. Not that I shouldn't say, it's not that difficult. It's, it's very open. There are no specific, uh, requirements within the P C U S A to, uh, identify exactly what you have to go through, become commissioned. It really is up to each presbytery to set their own standards and to set their program as to how they want to, to, to do that. In my case, I was, uh, had the opportunity to be mentored by my pastor at the time at our church, uh, by, with the, along with a couple other folks, uh, went through a apparently lengthy time-wise period of, of studying what it means to, or how do you, how do you write sermons? How do you, how do you, uh, some of the polity of the church to be a moderator for a session. Uh, things of that nature, uh, that, that took, yeah, a couple of years overall. But that's not necessarily true of all commissioned ruling elders CREs. Uh, it really is quite variable. There is no standard per se. The book of order simply says that they'll be, essentially, they'll be trained and commissioned. And what that is is pretty open,
Speaker 1:Uh, trained and commissioned as led by the spirit, as we like to say.<laugh>,
Speaker 3:There you go.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I've wondered about related to being a commissioned ruling holder or commission lay pastor is that, like you said, your level of training differs depending on your context and on your presbytery, but you also are walking into a situation and a position of, of leadership, but without having necessarily gone through a lot of, some of the, the education that a trained and ordained minister both has gone through and also came, sort of came into the situation expecting to take on, if that makes sense, when stepping into a position of leadership in a congregation. So I'm curious what that feels like or how, how, what your experience has been navigating that or, you know, sometimes are people expecting that you will have all of this great knowledge of the Bible and in fact you did not go to seminary. So it's not like that is necessarily in your wheelhouse, but you are there to serve, you are still there to provide pastoral care. So what's your experience been like in that regard? Well,
Speaker 3:That's an interesting question. My biggest fear, when I was first approached by doing something like this, uh, we were trying to assist one of the local churches or area churches who, um, had lost their pastor. And we were putting together a team of four or five people to go and, and lead worship on a rotating basis. And, uh, I was, my passion at the time asked if I'd be interested in doing that. And I said, uh, okay. And then my next question is, how do you write sermons? And this quick answer was, well, creativity is 90% of where you steal it. So that, that made me feel better about trying to find material for, for a sermon. But I, I think the biggest thing for, for me at least, and think some of the others who are in this type of position to look at someone who's been through seminary versus someone who has, who's a lay leader, I think I had a lot of experience being an elder in both my church here and my church, uh, church I came from in Colorado, you know, and being a chair of committees, those types of things, dealing with issues day-to-day, so to speak, in the church. So when I was, uh, commissioned to be moderator of the session at the church I was assigned to and also to lead worship, I felt very good about kind of the, the day-to-day kind of stuff. Like I, I understood that leading worship was something different. I think a lot of the, I could be wrong cuz a lot of, uh, folks are coming in as a second, uh, second career now, but a lot of the ordained MDivs, whatever coming into the field, really good at writing sermons and understand all the theology, but may not have a clue, uh, how to, uh, work with a church, work with a, the membership of a church. Uh, it's a whole different, uh, uh, ballgame from that standpoint. So it's, which is why it's so important for c r e to have some sort of mentor to help them with the, the theology, if you will, of, of things. And you know, how you might present yourself, how you might, uh, provide a message, uh, to that, to that church, uh, from that standpoint. So it really is kind of a different, uh, background is different. I think the skills and gifts quite often are quite different. That was the challenge for me at least, is, is, you know, leading worship. That's the scary part.<laugh>, everything else is easy.<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And, and, uh, going back to what you just said about a lot of, you know, I'm from a, I'm from a small church in South Carolina where it took a very long time for them to find a minister because of money and finances. And we're just hearing more and more of those stories these days. And I just got back from a conference and one of the speakers was talking about the decline in church membership and how churches are getting creative and how ministries are kind of changing. And kind of the trajectory in which we're on in that membership is, you know, is, is decreasing in some areas and kind of all over the board. And we are becoming more and more dependent upon people who may or may not, you know, have what we say the credentials. I I always like to trouble that because as an ordained person, and I completely agree what you just said, it's very different to study than it has actually to be in it. And I think that our seminaries could equip us a lot better with the real world<laugh>. And I always say that, and the ordination process and all these things that we talk about, the church, I think all that needs to be talked about anyway. But we're getting more and more creative and I'm seeing a lot more commissioned ruling elders or lay pastors in their communities because of this trend. And so I wonder if you've, I mean, if you've experienced it in kind of like what you're seeing as well, uh, in your context, because I know it is a little bit more rural, but yeah, I wonder if you could talk about that and kind of your role in all that as well, because I know that's a trend that is happening.
Speaker 3:Well, I I I would call it more than a trend. I'd call this a, uh, more of a, a necessity. I mean, yeah, it's a trend, but it's, it's necessary. And in our, and granted, our Presbyterian always has been smallish in terms of total membership. I mean, we're, uh, we're spread out geographically in a, across a very large area of eastern Idaho. I don't remember the exact numbers, but about, uh, 20 years ago roughly, we were, uh, the Kendall Presbytery, uh, could, uh, re could re report somewhere around 2,500 to 3000 total members. I know there are churches that are bigger than this presbytery as far as membership goes. And that was spread out among 13, 14 churches. We have lost, you know, some congregations to, uh, have left the denomination a few. But in the past, uh, you know, three or four years ago before the pandemic, we were reporting around a thousand total members in, in the, in the presbytery. And now we're down to around, you know, 750. So most of our churches can't, just, can't simply just don't have the resources to, to, to provide any kind of a living wage to anybody really. Presbyterian only has three ordained staff, uh, serving churches. Um, there are only three churches being, being led by ordained staff. So it's absolutely necessary for, for lay persons to, uh, step up and try to fill those roles. In my case, it was even<laugh> an even greater challenge. I was traveling, uh, 220 miles each way, uh, twice a month to the church that I served. You know, it's two and a half hours, excuse me, two 50 miles total. Uh, total mileage, but two and a half hours each way, uh, twice a month to, to serve a church. And, and that's simply the, you know, just the need that is there. Uh, you've got congregations of 10, 15, 20 people, they want the leadership and they haven't been able to develop it within their own congregation. It's just absolutely, absolutely vital that we find people to step up, uh, by the same token as with their, every place else, with our membership declining, it's, it's also a, um, an age issue. The vast majority of the members in our, in our Presbyterian are, without the statistics in front of me, I would guess, you know, the vast majority are 50 and above, if not 16 and above. So that becomes, uh, quite the challenge as well to help serve these communities, which also creates a even greater challenge. How do we, how do we marshal these resources that we do have currently, uh, uh, and look to the future? How do we, uh, try to innovate? How do we try to find new ways to do things with, I'll call old energy and, and kind of old thinking. A lot of our people are, are still, uh, wishing that we could go back to where we were 25 years ago. And that's just not gonna happen. It can't happen that way. It's, it's a, it's a real challenge to, to try to reinvigorate, uh, re-energize, uh, refocus, uh, and try to figure out what can we do? What is our new mission? What is our new outreach? Um, what can we do with the stuff that we've got currently? It's, it's, it's a real difficult situation.
Speaker 1:I wonder if in these congregations that you're able to serve with when they come, when a, when a parishioner comes to you, say for pastoral care of, of whatever capacity or whatever type, and as you said, you were going to a congregation, say twice a month. So the ability to form relationship is a little bit different than being a minister who is there present with the congregation week after week and throughout the week as well, and also is probably physically in much closer proximity to the congregation. What has your experience been with regards to relationships and pastoral care with, with these congregations that you're able to serve with?
Speaker 3:Well, for what I'm grateful for, the miracle of Zoom,<laugh>, you know, the, the, the, the pandemic. Did, you know, it, it, it was a struggle. Obviously you may have had these discussions before in other context, but, uh, the one thing that brought about, uh, especially for these more isolated, if you will, more, uh, rural areas is, is becoming familiar with the new technology that allowed us to be, to remain connected. I mean, we, we did our worship services online for, you know, for, um, the better part of 10 months or so. Uh, we did session meetings, we did bible studies all, um, online via Zoom. And, and we've been trying to, uh, to, you know, along those lines discuss, okay, how, how can we, as a presbytery with these outlying small congregations, is there a way that we can, uh, try to connect different congregations together through, through these, these online type sessions and try to create a sense of community, um, a sense of belonging, a sense of, of connectedness. Uh, but that, that is, is definitely a challenge. I think, uh, for me and my experience at the church I was at, you just take advantage as much as possible for those times you are together in person. Try to cultivate those, those deep personal relationships and then try to, uh, maintain those things through, whether it be phone calls, even just written messages, you know, uh, emails, whatever newsletters and, uh, those occasional Zoom, uh, meetings, uh, can go a long way to, uh, to creating a sense of community, a sense of connection. Um, it, it is definitely a different world now than it was, you know, three years ago, um, along those lines. But again, I think it was a, a learning experience for many that yeah, they can actually, uh, maintain a sense of connection without being together, uh, in a, in the usual way. But, uh, the other thing is just that your commitment to as well to the congregation is if you need, if I need to be there, I'll be there regardless of the distance. And, and if, if they have that confidence that you can do that, it, it certainly goes a long way towards, uh, fostering that, those relationships and that sense of, yeah, I'm being taken care of. People, people care about me, care about us. And, and I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2:During the pandemic, well, just a little bit before the pandemic, I lived in Tennessee, I lived there for like 10 years and that's where I got ordained in Middle Tennessee Presbyterian. But during my divinity school time and right up like a little bit after I got ordained, I would supply pastor for little churches outside of Nashville cuz the presbytery was so focused on<laugh> as they, that could be something else we could talk about, like how the focus is a lot on the areas where big churches, money, all those things, relationships. I mean, this, this church is so small, everybody's connected in weird ways and people know people and it's all about who, you know, that kind of thing. But I, they would, I would go out to these little churches and supply pastor and basically it was just me being there on a Sunday to preach, but it slowly became more than just that. So it was a little bit of pastoral care every time I was out there. And then the pandemic hit and zoom hit, and then you realize the importance, and we talk about small churches and rural areas, but where I'm from, that's where you build community. That's where it is a, so it is still such a part of a life that I think, I think it often gets skewed that churches are kind of integral in these smaller communities in ways that we may never fully realize until the pandemic hit. And I was like, wow, they are very connected and people rely on, on each other in ways that it may not even look from the outside when it comes to caretaking and food and the relationships people have. And so I real, I realized that, and I wondered, you know, how, how it is this opportunity for a lot of people in what, in the, in the world of what we do as church to see community in that way and the complexity within it. I think we often think rural or small is not complex or not nuanced. And so I think that that is a misconception that, that we have often perpetuated in the church, I would even say nationally. And so I just wonder about that experience for you because being from a small town, working in small churches, you see the depthness of relationships that you may not see anywhere else, that, that people take care of each other in very, very different ways, in deeper ways. Sometimes. I don't wanna discount anything, but I just wonder if, if you have stories or, or ways to kind of express that out there, because it really changed my, how I viewed church a lot.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I, I don't have a, a specific story per se, but the experience to me was really interesting, uh, comparing smaller congregations to larger congregations. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> in a sense, in a small congregation, like, like I was at in several of the churches we have, there are no alternatives for social connection and, and, and those kinds of, you know, those kind of, uh, relationships, social, otherwise, you were, you were part of a family, you know, group of 15, 20, 30 people that regardless of your background, the individual's background, perspectives, whatever, they hung together. It wasn't like you could go off and go, well, I'm not sure I like that particular group. I can go over this, you know, large part of this big church. You have a dozen different groups within that big church that you find the people that are like you and you just, and you spend time with them, you don't necessarily work with or care about. And it's a kinda a strong term, but, uh, those that aren't like you in a small church, you have to, you have to acknowledge the fact that people are different and still love and work with one another and get things done. My little church was, from a political standpoint, was across the board left to right. I mean, but it didn't matter because they could find a, a common sense of mission, of outreach, of care, whatever that, um, defied those labels that we might put on people that I don't think you have that same opportunity in, in, in larger congregations. That was the one thing that just impressed the heck out on me when working with the church that I was at.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting, especially as for myself, someone who was raised in a sort of suburban church of a, I would say not large, but not small, so maybe like medium size. And then spent the last couple of years in New York, which is its own<laugh> sort of, it, you know, it's its own entity unto itself. And like, I think some in a variety of other places around the country. I wouldn't say the next closest Presbyterian church is a stone, a stone throws away, but there's a lot of Presbyterian church is just in New York City presbytery just within the three boroughs, which is not the case everywhere. And I'm really grateful that both you, Rick and, and Lee have reminded us of that because the context are very different around the country. And something that this conversation is also making me think about is that Lee and I work in very sort of programmatic levels of the denomination, uh, without getting too much into the weeds, we, I think, I like to say that we work for, for the, for big church with a capital C, the denominational level. But what you're describing right now is the experiences of, of little church or congregational level with a lowercase C. And I think that sometimes it's very easy to get caught up in our own worlds. And then we forget about the experiences of our congregations around the country, that there is diversity and that there are congregations that are trying to just establish themselves or keep themselves afloat and are seeking leadership. And we're really grateful for people like yourself who are willing to serve as commission ruling elders or commission lay pastors. And it does seem interesting sometimes to be asked, oh, you know, especially pre pandemic, oh, we wanna go, we've been invited to go and speak somewhere about an issue, say gun violence, and the Presbytery's invited us. Um, if it was a bunch of smaller congregations, I wonder if previously, if Zoom hadn't existed, if it would've been deemed worthy to go out to some of these smaller congregations because oh, well there's only 3000 people in this presbytery and there's 3000 people in this one church in another location. So it's really important, a really important reminder to us about the importance of all of our churches. Go ahead. And I'm really grateful that you've reminded us of that. And I also wanted to just turn the conversation back to pastoral care for a moment, because something that Lee and I have talked about on the podcast before is that it can be hard for a ordained pastor to say, uh, have friends<laugh> in their own congregation because they are the pastor for that community. They are. And you can't always be friends with your colleagues, and you can't always be friends with your parishioners. But I'm wondering if in the capacity of a commissioned ruling elder, because you have a little bit of separation Yeah. If you're a, if you feel like you're able to build a type of relationship that is maybe a little bit different than that of the ordained pastor for a congregation.
Speaker 3:Well, that's a really interesting perspective and question. Um, yeah, probably so I, I, you know, I I I, well, I'm just thinking hard about this one. That's an interesting, very interesting perspective. I think that's true. I, I, I know a lot of, of, because you are the, the pastor and you are the ordained, you know, minister of ward in Sacramento, whatever, there are a lot of expectations of that role, uh, both, um, from a responsibility standpoint and also from a, uh, a social standpoint, if you will. And that isolation is real that, that many pastors feel. But we do by and large, as a, as a, as a C R E or, or lay pastor, uh, don't, I don't think we feel the same kind of separation because I mean, there was a, there was a little bit, there's some of that arm distance kind of relationship, but not nearly as, so not nearly so strong from my perspective. And, and a couple of my colleagues, I think would probably say the same thing. It's a a lot easier to be in relationship with your congregants as a, as a C L P, than it would be as a, as a, as a minister head of, you know, head of the church kind of thing, head of that congregation. But by the same token, um, one of the things that CREs, I think, struggle with in as a whole, uh, is we're kind of ignored, uh, by the church to a large degree. Uh, not so much from that, you know, kind of the isolated pastor's perspective, but from the general support, call it continuing education, uh, whatever standpoint for, I know in some areas this, the, this position is looked down upon by ordained staff because they think we're, you know, we're pastors light or something that, uh, we haven't done the time, haven't done the work, therefore we don't, aren't deserving of the same, um, kind of support or whatever. And I know a lot of CREs have that same kind of feeling. How do we, how do we get the resources, the support, the continuing education, whatever that we need to, to continue to minister our own capacities? And it's one of the unfortunate victims of the, uh, pandemic was we were, I was part of a, uh, planning team. We were playing this, this basically a national, uh, conference for CREs. We were meeting in, uh, in Dallas the year the pandemic hit. And we had had this program put together. Everything was just going really well, getting a lot of good support, a lot of interest, you know, and then, then, and then, yeah, and then covid hit. But cause we'd never done anything like that before, have have these seminars that you could come and, and talk about self-care or, uh, new initiatives perhaps for, for small congregations or whatever. We had, we'd had a, a pretty, pretty robust program, uh, put together. And um, that was one of the victims of the pandemic. And it's probably something we should try to revive, uh, from a A P C U S A standpoint. Uh, that just reminds me, I should maybe be in contact with the, the, with some of the folks that were kind of at the forefront of that to see, hey, we need to do this again. You know, it's time to do that. But that's the, from the CRE perspective, I think that's the, a bit of the difference. We're not nearly as isolated, but by the same token, we don't get the same opportunities for, uh, refreshment revitalization, uh, new knowledge, new, you know, new education, whatever, uh, that are, you know, our called ministers have quite often have budgets for continuing education, uh, for time off or that type of thing. Hey, I, I had a bit of a tribal stipend and 200 bucks a month. Uh, that was it, you know, from, from a, from a monetary or support standpoint for the eight years. I said, at this church, not that I'm, I'm not complaining, don't get me wrong, but it's just the whole different perspective of, of what that role is and what the expectations are. And, and, uh, yeah,<laugh>, that's, that's, that's a really interesting question. I had not thought of that before.
Speaker 1:Well, we've talked before a lot about how congregations expect, they expect a lot of their pastor often too much. And so I can only imagine what some of those expectations are for a commission ruling elder or commission lay pastor, especially when the training varies between, and the commission process varies between presbytery and when those expectations aren't clarified, that that can certainly be kind of a, for lack of a better word, a funky space to be in. It can be a beautiful space to be in, but it also means that it probably lacks some clarity at times. And I think that's what you've, uh, what you've outlined for us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, clarity and consistency too. Um, I would say, um, since there isn't a particular standard, the consistency from c R E to c R E I'm sure is, is, especially from a theo theological standpoint, is really probably lacking up significantly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And there's also this, and this is something that I struggled with and still struggle with, is kind of how we are also, I don't know, hierarchical in, in our thinking about leadership within the church in ways and who is qualified and who is not qualified and what that means. And, and so I really do think that these are ways we can completely rethink how and who and all the processes that we all go through to be leaders in the church. Cuz I know people who have been leading in the church for years and years and years, and they're not ordained and they don't want to be, and they don't want to go to school and they're just as much qualified as anybody or any of us. And I think that that is something that, I think that's something that we, as a church and whole and, and every denomination is like this, but really rethinking what that means. And, and I think that a lot of people that do the work that you do, and a lot of our lay people, I don't even like using that, but I don't even like using that term. But a lot of our leadership that is kind of rooted in congregations and is kind of led by people in the community like that, I think it's a special thing. I think it's a special way of, of how we do ministry. I mean, that's what Jesus did, didn't he, Jesus was a part of that community at first and kind of was raised in it and learned through it and had relationships with people. And I think that that is important that we don't often necessarily think about when, when that happens. Now, I do know, and this might be your experience too, but when you do know people in different ways and you have grown up around them, or you've been in the community for a very long time, it's gotta come with a lot of weird, like, things that go on if you become a leader in the church. I've heard those stories too, where if a minister is brought up in that church and they happen to be called to that church, it gets a little strange and boundaries are kind of weird. But I, but I do think the work that you're doing invites us to think differently about it all. Yeah,
Speaker 3:That's one of the good things about my, you know, my commission was to a, you know, community that's, you know, over a hundred miles away. Um, so they didn't know me from, you know, from Adam when I showed up my first Sunday we had met, but, you know, it wasn't like I just showed up and like, who are you<laugh>? But, uh, um, but there were, you know, it was like being called to a to a new community. So that kind of background, that kind of baggage, uh, didn't, uh, didn't exist. I do, you know, occasionally preach in my own church to, you know, support my, my pastor when they're on vacation or, or sick or whatever. And, um, that's sometimes an interesting experience,<laugh>. Cause these are people I've known for the last 30 years and sometimes they look at me kind of funny,<laugh>, you, you think that really? Or whatever. Yeah, I can see that, uh, for probably a lot of, uh, commissioned, uh, uh, lay pastors that serving in their, in the churches. They've been, they've known so well though though I suspect in the vast majority of those cases, they are well known and they're, they, they were put in that position because, uh, uh, the confidence that others showed in them and their abilities and, and it wasn't like there was an unknown entity and all of a sudden they revealed something that no one ever knew about before. But, uh, yeah, that I, I think I was fortunate in, in the commission that I received to a, a church that was further away.
Speaker 1:Well, Rick, we are so grateful that you have been able to spend some time with us and to talk about your experience as a commission lay pastor slash commission ruling elder in the P C U S A. And we're really grateful for people like you who are, who are feeling called to serve in this capacity because it's really important work and really just a blessing for our denomination that folks are willing to serve in these capacities, um, even when there is not always, as you said, clarity or consistency and willing to faithfully serve. So thank you for, for everything that you do and to all of our commission ruling elders out there in the denomination.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I, I appreciate that, uh, greatly. Uh, I tell you, if there's, um, I would encourage any folks that might feel somewhat led in that direction to consider it, because I tell you, I, I have received so many blessings from, uh, from my experiences over the last, well, I've been commissioned off and on over the last, uh, 15, 16, 17 years, uh, eight years in one particular church. But, um, it's, uh, it's definitely been youth leaders or whatever might say of their experiences. I, you know, you're there to teach others. But I tell you, I, I learned so much from, from everybody else around me, and, and it's been such a blessing. I, I, I just would encourage folks to consider that mission area of the church. It's, it's, it's, it's needed and it's valuable and it's, it's rewarding.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, thanks again, Rick. And we also wanted to plug, speaking of church leadership, our colleagues in the P C U S A, the Presbyterian Church usa. There is another podcast called Along the Road, and it is specifically geared toward leaders in the Presbyterian Church usa. So ruling elders and teaching elders. You'll get to know the difference between those things and, and a lot of the things that kind of we talked about today. And they, they speak about leadership and how to get involved specifically within our denomination. So it's a little different than ours in that we're kind of broader, but along the road is very much targeted toward people who are wanting to be up, uh, in leadership in the Presbyterian Church usa. So we wanted to plug them, it's called Along the Road, wherever you get your podcast, great hosts. And so we wanted to plug that if you are interested in leadership within our denomination. And again, Rick, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3:Yep, my pleasure.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Faith, the Presby podcast. We, of course, always want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, and we want you to leave us a review. We would love to hear from you, five stars, whatever you wanna say, make it nice. But we really would love to hear from you. And of course, if you have any questions, send to Fate podcast@peaceusa.org. Check out our website, a matter of fate podcast.com. There youll find our Spanish podcast and Korean podcasts and our learning guides. You'll find it all there. And of course, we will talk to you again next week.