A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Welcome to A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us and it just might be a matter of faith. Whether it be faith in God, faith in others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Office of Faith-Based Investing & Corporate Engagement, the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program, and Unbound: An Interactive Journal on Christian Social Justice for the Presbyterian Church (USA). Submit questions to faithpodcast@pcusa.org. LISTENING GUIDES FOUND IN PODCAST SHOW NOTES.
A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Camp and Conference w/ Colleen Earp
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Question of the Week:
What do you think about public versus private school? Or religion in school?
Special Guest: (21:48)
Rev. Colleen Earp, Program Director,
Massanetta Springs Camp and Conference Center
Guest Question:
Why are conferences/retreats important for faith and spiritual development? What can someone get at a retreat that they cannot get from their usual church service? |
The Revolt of the Christian Homeschoolers
Massanetta Springs Camp & Conference Center
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Well , hello again everyone, and welcome to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in and send us your question because
Speaker 2If it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of fate
Speaker 1Put in . Simon ,
Speaker 2It's good to see you this week. I haven't seen you in a while.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's good to see you as well, Lee . And folks, in case you're not interested in learning how well or not we are, feel free to just skip to our guest segment. You can see the timestamp in the show notes, but we hope you want to catch up with us because there's some things to talk about and some additional questions to be responded to. And yes, Lee , it has been a bit, it's good to see you.
Speaker 2It's good to see you too. Yeah, it's been a while . And yeah, we're just gonna kick it right off because in the news, so if you're following any kind of religious news, and this is, this is very specific to faith . There is an article and the Washington Post called The Revolt of the Christian Homeschoolers, and it's a very kind of , I don't know, the, the title is is very dramatic, how dramatic <laugh>. Yeah . But this is something that within this article, it really does talk about how homeschooling and the, and the people who went and did homeschool are now the ones that are kind of speaking up and speaking out against more regulations in homeschooling for the reasons that in many, in some cases, public schools, of course, are not gonna be necessarily instilling or, or supposed to be, are not supposed to be instilling any kind of religious values within you . But in these home schools , it was in the experiences of many people that they were kind of taught these fundamentalists Christian ideologies and theologies within a homeschool setting because there's not a lot of oversight within it. And of course, your parents, or if they're hiring somebody, they have more control over what you learn and things like that. And so, and there's also a lot of reasons, I think now, even in this article, it says homeschooling is a lot more diverse now, and there's a lot of different reasons why people do it, not necessarily for religious purposes, but the question is always asked about the quality of public education in this country, where money is being put and how they are being funded, why they're not adequate as they should be in some areas and , and other areas they're not. There's all those questions that come up with this, but this article does talk about how the trend of homeschooling children for religious reasons is now kind of in some ways backfiring to say, you know, we are not, we, we didn't necessarily want to be instilled all these values. We would would much rather have just learned what we need to learn, you know? So, yeah, it's an interesting topic.
Speaker 1Yeah. And that leads us to our main question for our first question of this episode, which is, what do you think about public versus private school? Or we can add to that homeschooling or religion in school. And actually, I wanna add a caveat here, because this is something that I have learned since I came out to, to Idaho almost a year ago, which is that in this area, there is not quite as much of a separation between say, religion and education. And what I mean by that is, in this area of Idaho , um, there's a very heavy Mormon or , uh, Mormon presence, which is the church of Jesus Christ, of Latter Day Saints. And in the public school, like the high school, there is a class time in the school day set aside so that the, the, the Mormon kids can go for their seminary class. That's what it's called. And if you're not Mormon, you just have, I believe you just have like a study hall that's in a public school though, because this is in a place where that is the, the dominant faith, I might even say dominant culture. So it is possible to have a public school with some elements of religion mixed into it. That doesn't mean that the school itself is teaching Mormon values per se, but it does mean that the fact that there's a, a class set aside for it in a public school is pretty interesting. So I just wanna add the caveat that it does depend on the public school and the location. And I also make the argument that even in public schools, if we think about states like Texas, everyone takes, I believe, is that Texas history mm-hmm . <affirmative> or you take , uh, a history class on Texas as part of your college education. If you go to, for example, I believe it's University of Texas or Texas a and m, it might be all the state schools. Yeah . Again , that's college level. That's not necessarily re religion, but we all know that there's an element of religion in some of that history. Yeah. So it's not like there's no religion at all in public schools. It's a matter of about whether those kinds of values resonate with you, your family, and what you want your child to be learning. So there's a bit of that too. But then again, we still have the Pledge of Allegiance, which is pretty blatantly a Christian , uh, clearly influenced by Christianity. Right . So there's that as well. So just to remind folks that there is variety, and it depends on the context, but to the main question about homeschooling and religion in school, whether it's public or private, I think this is kind of interesting, the idea that I will, someone wants to, they wanna , they wanna make sure that their child has certain values instilled in them. And if they aren't gonna get that from the education they can get in school, then they will just teach them everything themselves. That's okay. That's your prerogative as a parent. But there are also certain things that your child is not going to get as a result of not being in a social setting, learning with other kids. Yeah. And that's hard to replicate. You can't just give that to someone, especially when it's during the formative years of their life.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. It's a , I I have, so I have , I do have mixed feelings about it because I do think it's a point of privilege when we're talking about ho homeschooling. I mean, to be able to stay home with their children and afford to do so. I think that is a point of privilege, but it's , but also with the amount of school shootings , uh, mass gun shootings, like I would be scared to send a kid to school. Like I, I mean, I really would be Yeah.
Speaker 1For bullying even
Speaker 2And , or bullying and , and things of that nature, especially now with like anti-trans laws coming out and they're like focusing on kids, which then instills like the permission to bully somebody, bully a kid who may be trans or bully a kid because what are they gonna do when it's the law of the land to say that it's okay to do that, it's okay to oppress this, this child. And so I, I do see the want and the desire to protect your child from those things, but those are kind of like systemic things that, that like this society places upon people where I think public education is a wonderful thing. And I think it does provide opportunities if it's funded well, if the kids are protected, if all kids are allowed to be who they are and, and feel safe and all those things, in the perfect world, that's what it would be. But I also understand the others like this side of like, well, all these things I don't under, I mean, I understand it in a way to kind of critically break it down when we say, well, the reason why these things are happening is because we took God outta school. You ever heard that? Like, we don't pray anymore. And Right . God is not in schools anymore. It's like, no, sorry. Like Right . It's because people can easily get a gun. It's because people are invited to be bigots. I don't know. Like that's just kind of the, the mentality we have in this country. And so I do think it's a , a weird thing in a publicly funded place for prayer, if that is something that you want to do. Sure. I am, I'm kind of one of those people that's like, I need a boundary. We always talk about boundaries. I am one that, that for me is a boundary. And I think that's why we have churches. I think that's why we have youth groups. If your kids want to go to a youth group, there are groups within schools like , uh, Christian athletes and like Young Life and like all those things that kids can choose to be a part of. But when it comes to the majority of a school, when it comes to the day in , day out , regular thing, I'm sorry. If I wanna send my, send my kid to a school, I want them to learn, I want them to learn about other religions. I want them to get a basic understanding of religion, not in a way that's any kind of spiritual or trying to convert, but actually understand what is going on. I think that is a point of education that I would like, if we're want religion to be in school, I want them to be taught in a way that is, that has the ability to understand them in a way to just show that we are all kind of in this thing that we call faith. And some people get there different than other people. And it's not an apologist way of learning about it. It's not an evangelical way of learning about religion. But I bet you bottom dollar , if somebody came in and started pre started teaching a class about Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or all the world religions that are out there, just to give people a basic understanding, we wouldn't hear it would be that that would just blow up. You know, because it is, well, you're indoctrinating my kid. Well, what's the difference in, I mean, a person's praying over the intercom, you don't think that's indoct, like, it's like a different thing. Right. It's not an educational thing. And so I have a hard line with it. I , if I send my kid to a school, if I had a kid, I don't want you teach. I don't want you praying, like, or making them think that they should be praying in a certain way or believing something, or I would want you to make sure they're treating people well and not bullying and having like morals. But I think that that is something that, you know, I , I don't, I think that's a slippery slope because not everybody's a Christian. In fact, we just was taught about a podcast that , you know, that's on the decline. Yeah . So,
Speaker 1Yeah. Especially in the time of books being banned in school systems because they're, they tell the truth about history is like a very, yeah . It's an interesting , uh, eing concept. And I , I appreciate that you mentioned not everyone is Christian, because I think that is something else that you encounter, especially in public school, that you will not necessarily encounter in a private school where you are likely required to at least be at least a member of a certain type of faith, if that makes sense. Yeah . And you definitely won't encounter it if you're homeschooled. And I, and I say this in that I went to a public school for elementary and high school. I met a lot of people of different faith backgrounds. And that really helped me, I think. Yeah. And in particular, one of, one of the folks that I'm thinking of played soccer with me pretty much all through growing up. We always knew when Ramadan was, because he could not drink water. And he always felt terrible that whole stretch of time that we were playing soccer. And again, that that's his religious observance. This is not a judgment of that. This is, I'm talking about my education about it . Be like, oh, okay. Like this is a part of his faith. Similarly, just within the other, other members of more reformed Christianity, I had another friend who was Seventh Day Adventist, and his thing was Friday night, I cannot do anything with anyone. I'm going to church and I'm doing things with my family. That is how my faith, my Christianity is practiced. Yeah . Which is not how it is for me. No . Which is okay. But I had to learn like, oh, if we wanna do things, we can't do things on Friday nights.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Because I respect your religion. I'm not gonna sit here and make you feel bad about your faith.
Speaker 2Right. Yeah. And that's kind of how like the, like the experiences that people have all over this country, when, you know, if you're a football coach wants to pray, not everybody might want to , not everybody wants to do that. And I think that if you had, if that is something you wanted to do, not everybody's gonna do that. And so it's just one of those things that I think people get so riled up about, oh, he just tried to prey on the field. Well, it's, it's a public, I mean, it's funded by public, it's a public education field if you're a private school. Sure. But I think it's a , I don't know that there's just times where it's very frustrating when it, if it is something that is your personal belief and that's something that gets you through the day, then sure sit there and pray. But I think it becomes an issue when you expect other people to do so and you expect other people to be a part of it in a way. And then you're judgmental about it when they don't, because that is something that they don't want to do. I wa grew, I mean, obviously I am a Christian, but I always found it uncomfortable <laugh> because I was like, I don't think everybody wants to do this. So it's, it's just a thing about like, I have a boundary and I think they're there for a reason even though that those boundaries are very blurred in this country. And I don't think they were ever separate. I don't think Christianity, Christian nationalism or whatever like type of Christianity is happening that it gets that blurred line. I don't think that's ever been the case. And so, you know, I think we're now just seeing the, the ramifications of it and not even bringing up the fact that we had boarding schools that wiped out cultures, you know? Yeah. Of our native siblings and things like that, based off Christianity. So I think it'll be a topic that will always have a lot of conflict over.
Speaker 1Yeah. And I think there's also this element of funding that is a question because in a particularly public school settings, right, the higher performing schools get the most money. And a lot of times I've been there, been in this position, not as a parent, but as a student, where it's like, if you didn't go to the higher performing high school, public high school, you are probably gonna go to private school. Yeah. Assuming your family could afford it. And I always, I always felt somewhat, I don't wanna say bad, but it felt kind of, I felt kind of awkward about that dynamic because I disliked the assumption that all of these other schools were just terrible, even if they were lower performing. Because I'm not always convinced that just pull your kid out because they don't go to the top one in terms of public school is the answer. Again, we hear about this with returns of gentrification and access.
Speaker 2Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1<affirmative>, but I also know that if I were a parent and I wanted to provide the best education for my child, does that mean I wouldn't do the same thing and just say, okay, we're taking you to private school then. Yeah. Because I wanna give 'em the best education. It's tough because I , I , I like that justice. Part of me wants my child enrolled in the, you know, and doesn't want to just be perpetuating injustices in our education system, but you also want the best for your child. Now that said, I personally do not ever think I could homeschool a ch my child.
Speaker 2Oh no.
Speaker 1If and when I become a parent, because I think to assume that I could be a better teacher than someone who was trained to be a teacher is probably a bad assumption. Also, it's just really hard to be a parent and a teacher.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah . I don't think that that's a hat that is, that everyone necessarily does Well, some people do it great, but it's hard. It's just something that's hard. Speaking of boundaries.
Speaker 2Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like we, we need to have boundaries. And I hope people can focus less on whether or not God has been taken outta school. Because I don't think that's possible. God has been there and God will always be there in a way that we should be living in a, in a way that should be protecting our children. I think it's very selfish of us to think that we can take God in and out of anything. And so I think our main calling is for our kids to feel safe, for our kids to get a good education. And that takes funding and to have these kinds of conversations more because our public education system is something that I have benefited from and people benefit from every day . And we need to financially support it adequately. We need to get rid of guns, we need to figure out ways to like instill like morals within people to not bully and to not take advantage of our trans and kids at school. You know, I think there's a lot of things we can talk about other than, well we need to put God back in school. Cuz I also think that limits God a lot. So for what that's worth, I think we should be having a lot bigger conversations than having a prayer in school.
Speaker 1Right. Absolutely. And this might be a conversation for a future podcast episode with you, Lee , but something that I was just thinking about as you mentioned, are trans and siblings and, and students is, okay, let's say you take 'em out of high school, where are they gonna go? Are they gonna, are you gonna put them in a, I mean, in a Catholic private school? I don't think that's any safer. No,
Speaker 2That's
Speaker 1Not, I think a lot of, I think a lot of private say Christian schools may not be safer, they may be even less tolerant, for lack of a better word, and less accepting, less likely to be accepting. So it, yeah, we need to make sure that that acceptance is
Speaker 2Everywhere. Yeah. It's, it's, there's a lot bigger conversations to be had and, and I would never know the choices that parents have to make about whether or not to send their kid to a , to what school and what wear , cuz I'll never have a kid. So I don't know what that would be like. And so those are, those are conversations that I think a lot of parents are having. I think there's a lot of resources out there, but at the same time it is a systemic issue because when it comes down to it, we are entrusted with children, millions of children every day . And the fact that, you know, a lot of them have been murdered by guns and we do nothing about it. It just says a lot in , in , in a way that I could care less whether or not you pray before school. But if that child can't make it out of that school alive and you don't care, then we don't follow the same God I don't think. And I don't want that God in school at all. So.
Speaker 1Well folks, feel free to write in and let us know what you think about public and private schools homeschooling and religion in schools. Write into Faith podcast at P C U S a.org and we hope that you will enjoy our guest conversation with the Reverend Colleen IRP who is the da da I can't find it. <laugh> our conversation with Reverend Colleen IRP who is the program director at Mata Springs Camping Conference Center. Well we are so excited to be joined on this episode of a Matter of Faith a Presby podcast by a very special guest. Joining us is the Reverend Colleen Herb , the program director at Mata Springs Camp and conference center. And just so people know, I went to Mata Springs when I was in middle school. I have fond memories and I'm very grateful to have Colleen with us today. Colleen, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk about camp with you both.
Speaker 2Yeah, Colleen, it's good to see you. And I didn't go to Mata Springs but I did go to Camp pd, which is in South Carolina and I was a counselor that didn't last very long cuz that wasn't my calling <laugh>. But I was a lifeguard for all like all my years in college. And so I got to to do all that and spend a lot of time at camp. So it has a special place in my heart this conversation. So thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3Definitely. And yeah, there's lots of different ways to be part of camp and conference ministry. This is my colleague and I wake up every day. I mean just hearing Simon introduce me as Reverend Colleen program director, I cannot believe this is the work that I get to do that I'm called to do. So it's really , uh, an absolute joy to talk about.
Speaker 2Yeah. So we will just start off with our question and our Christian reads. Why are conferences or retreats important for faith and spiritual development? What can someone, okay , sorry. What can someone get at a retreat that they cannot get from their usual church service? So how would you respond to that question?
Speaker 3Yeah, well I wouldn't wanna pit church versus camp. I think both have different things to offer. Churches have so much to offer , uh, in terms of routine of worship and fellowship and sort of the building of ongoing relationships and camp, it's a little different. You're stepping away from your everyday routine, which gives us the chance to see things differently. You get fresh air and a different setting. And the beauty of creation, I mean scripture even tells us, right, that Jesus would withdraw to the wilderness to rest and to pray. So there's something about stepping away from those everyday distractions , uh, and the chance to do things differently for a a while as a sort of reset. And I think that can open us up to so many possibilities for our faith and our spirituality of connecting with God and one another in creation around us. Um, some programs, you know, you're coming in by yourself and you're meeting a lot of new people and getting a lot of new perspectives and ideas, but even for a church retreat where you go with everybody you already know, it's a chance to see those people in a different setting and, and doing things differently and maybe getting to know them differently. And I think that can inspire us in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 1Growing up as a suburban church kid, I think there's also something that's really nice about going to a camping conference and retreat center that's in a totally different context than what you grow up in. That said, there are also conference centers that are in more urban settings. So I think there's a potential to have retreat in an urban setting as well. Uh, but something that , for example, I really appreciated about going to Mato was just that it got me out of my Maryland, Virginia d uh , DC context and took us out, took us out into nature and just allowed us to slow down. And that slowing down is something that we don't do very well as people in, in modern society. And I think that that's also helpful for some of that faith development as well. It's just that moment to slow down. Cuz I think it's easy to go to church and because church is, for lack of a better word, often very prescriptive and structured. You go through this motions, you do the thing, you say that you sing the hymns, you say the prayers, you hear the sermon, maybe you remember it Monday, maybe you don't <laugh>. But when you go and just take some time to like decompress and someone just says, Hey, what do you think about this Bible verse? What does that mean for your life? What does , what does that mean? Or let's talk about , uh, an issue and you're stripped away from all of the sort of things that would normally distract you. I think there's something pretty powerful to that as too of that , that as well.
Speaker 3Yeah, I have to agree with you. Uh, you know, I I love going to church because I love that routine. I , it centers me, this is why I go to Sunday worship , uh, when I can. Um, and it's really nice to step away from that and just relax into a , okay, there's a different kind of schedule here. We're going to be together for much more than one hour and we're probably doing different things while we're here. Right. There might be recreation or, or there might be some hiking or some sort of nature things. We're sharing meals in different ways. Uh, so that is a chance to just be more connected to one another, which I think invites a little more vulnerability or a little more openness that people really do dig deep quickly. And I've seen this, you know, I've served on staff at four different camps now and I've seen this in campers who come for a week and just open up and tell you their whole world in ways that they aren't usually doing at home. And I've seen this happen at retreats where you just have a few days together, but you just dive deep right away because there's something, there's something about shedding all of your sort of normal schedules and normal habits that I think freeze us a little bit and allows us to take a chance and to take a risk. And maybe there's also just some safety and well , I'm only gonna be here for a little while, so yeah, I'll take a chance , uh, and see what happens. And what happens is people open up and build these wonderful relationships. Um, I'm still in touch with the people I went to camp with growing up because these were some of the closest friendships I could develop in middle and high school. Uh, and I hear that story over and over with people who come and lead retreats and conferences , uh, who grew up coming to these kinds of events too.
Speaker 2Yeah, it does make an impact. And I think, I think a lot of people may not realize how much of an impact it does make because I , I don't know the trends that are happening now, but I can, if are the trends that are happening in the church are, are they happening at the conference centers as well that are kind of connected to churches? So where like, you know, we , we have conversations all the time about declining membership and what that means and what that means for the DOM nomination and all this kind of thing. But I, I do think that in many ways, like it's conference centers and camps now don't necessarily get the attention that they need or in a, in a, in a more like overarching way, like all the camps <laugh> , like we have some in the denomination of course, that get, and we talked about this earlier that get a little bit more attention than others <laugh> . But how do, like how do you see that now? Like are you seeing and like, like is there a need for more support? Because I do think it's important because it was very impactful for me when I went, not only did I meet other people, I was raised out in the country, so nature was not like the need for me <laugh>. Um, but I do think the community was something that I needed and also alongside, like I was, I've never, I don't know, I don't wanna say this cuz I too am a ordained person, but church was never like, I wasn't like running to go to church all the time. And so the, the camp feel was kind of more of my thing and, and it was really impactful for me. So, but I wonder, since it is so impactful for, I mean at least the three of us here, how are you seeing like the support and what are the trends that are happening now in camp and conference centers that we all may need to, to think about? Because I mean, the church world is changing a lot,
Speaker 3Right? Um, so for context , uh, mata and many of our other Presbyterian sites are part of an organization called the Presbyterian Church Camps and Conferences Association and the Campfire Collective. So we also have ecumenical partners , um, sorry, I'm looking this up real quick because I just got the number so you can edit this part out. There are 135 camps in that association in the US and Canada. Uh , many of them, Presbyterian, not all, but there's, there's camps all over and it's a different story everywhere. So some have lots of funding and lots of support and some are having a harder time getting by. And I think that story varies just like the church does all over the place. But I think it's more important than ever to be supporting these places to send kids there so that they have these opportunities to connect with one another and creation , um, even for a kid like you Lee , where that that was really familiar for you to be playing outside, but to be playing outside in a slightly different place , uh, and maybe learn something a little bit different about something that's already familiar still is just gonna open us up more and more. Uh, for every time I hear an adult or an older person lament that, oh, we don't see any young people in the church anymore. Uh, they're all hanging out at camp as well, they should be. Uh, so we need to be supporting these places that are lifting young people up in their faith , uh, that they may grow into the next generation of leaders. They already are , uh mm-hmm <affirmative> leaders in our midst. Um, they're providing leadership at camps and in conferences. We have a high school leadership group as part of our middle school conferences. Many camps have counselor and training programs and other ways to lift up new leaders , uh, and guide them. And that that's not just, that's not just for camp. They're going to take those skills back to church and back to their communities and back to their lives. Well beyond, even if I wasn't a camp director, I would still be leaning heavily on the skills that I learned in my leadership training program when I was 16 years old at Johnson in New Jersey.
Speaker 2Yeah, same. I mean, it was the first time I ever talked in front of a bunch of people. You know, like you, you get up in front of people and you lead worship. I mean, and I like when I first started out I was like 17, 16, 17. And you know, you just develop those skills that, that that's what you just have to do. I mean, I learned how to cook <laugh>. I mean I did everything at the camp like I cooked, I deep fried, I like knew how to like run a kitchen. Like all these things that you just kind of learn when you're a young age. And that's another thing I think that the church could also really kind of take a cue from and say like, you know, there are , these are actually practical skills that young folk learn in this setting and how that impacts their lives. So yeah, I think that's, that's
Speaker 3Great. Right ? Even if, even if we set aside all of the beautiful faith and spiritual development that happens in these settings, kids are learning how to do dishes and help clean spaces up. And it's way more fun to do that , uh, in community with your, your cohort of friends and fellow leaders than it is to do back home, right? So , um, learning these important life skills and a little bit of independence too , uh, that your grownups at home aren't gonna be the ones helping you with these things when you're away at a retreat or a conference or a summer camp.
Speaker 1I think there's also something powerful about one, meeting people outside of the faith context and community that you're already familiar with, meeting other people from other churches, sometimes even other denominations and participating in things together. It gives you this wider sense of Christian community. It also shows you that not every church looks like yours and that's a really great thing. And also there's just , there's just so much diversity to it , uh, and, and varieties of different types of people and experiences. And I also think age wise , this can be really important. For example, when I was in Mata, I went as a middle schooler and a lot of the, the counselors and leaders were, I wanna say probably late high school or college age or a young adult. And as someone who knew that there are other young, there are young adult presbyterians and I knew that there were some in my church, but just to see like a lot of them in one place doing something and that they wanted to engage with me as a middle schooler. There's something that is very powerful about that cuz I think as , as a kid you're kind of taught wait until you get old enough and then you, then you're worth something. Right? And this sort of taught me that, oh hey, these young adults, they care. And not only that, but I can , I can share with them. Mm-hmm . And as you were saying Colleen, about the maybe the ability to be willing to be a little bit more vulnerable in this space because these aren't your usual people. There's something to that as well. I remember when I was at Mata while we were , uh, ju the week of the conference, I think the second or third day my grandfather went to the hospital. I don't know if he fell or he had a heart attack, something happened. And so my mom called my associate pastor who then like took me aside and said, Hey, I just want you to know this. And so I was like, I wasn't say I was down, but it was something that I was, I was feeling in that moment, right? And I kind of had this question about, oh should I, should I share this with my small group that I'm with at Mata ? Is that something that we do? Is that something that's done in this space? And I took a chance and I shared it and then we prayed about it collectively as part of a number of prayers that people were sharing. And I remember that the young adult counselor, like he, when we shared and he prayed about it, he squeezed my hand, you know, just to gimme a little bit of support. And that meant a lot because it taught me that you can be vulnerable, that you can share, and that even folks outside of your immediate community, those are, that can be a safe space and also that you want it to be a safe space for everyone everywhere, regardless of who they are and you know, and all of the justice issues that, that we talk about in, in other parts of the podcast and in life. But that was something that was really important to me and it's something that stuck with me from then onward was like, okay, maybe I can share something in church. Maybe I can share something in a faith space. It's not just listening to the pastor on Sunday. I think
Speaker 3You're pointing to a couple of really important things. And one is that , uh, that leadership, that close peer leadership for sure, seeing the people who are just a little bit older than you serving as leaders is really inspiring for a young person. It was for me, that's why I wanted to be a camp counselor. Cause I had the coolest counselors , uh, but even Adultier adults, right? I mean, I had wonderful parents, I love my parents. Um, and there's something really affirming about other adults also like me, right? Like my parents, they have to like me. Uh, they were also great, but uh, other adults who don't know me , uh, are taking the time to care about me and to pray for me and to listen to me. That's powerful. So I think there's something really important about the leadership and I think there's also something really important about the vulnerability you're talking about and the, the ability to share with people. Um, and I also hear you saying , uh, I hear you saying this is a chance for people to see other kinds of church, other ways of doing and being church. And I think that's really powerful too . I grew up in a really big church that went on retreats by ourselves because we always had the critical mass to go do something. Um , so we didn't go on a lot of retreats or conferences where we would see, you know, dozens or even hundreds of other youth from other churches. And coming to Mata Springs and joining the staff and, and being there on the stage for my first middle school conference, watching everybody pour in with all the energy in the universe, it felt like that really moved me to think that all of these youth are going to interact with other teenagers this week and hear about, oh yeah, we do things a little bit differently at my church. And just know that there's a whole world out there to explore and a whole world of church out there to explore. I really wish I'd had that when I was growing up. Um, I, I still got here, but I wonder, I wonder what it would've been like to find that a little bit sooner by having those kinds of interactions.
Speaker 2Yeah, and that's what I, I appreciated about it cuz my, I mean my church was very small and so there wasn't a lot of us there, <laugh> young people there. And it was mostly my family to be honest . And we, that's kind of where we met people. And I mean, when I became a counselor, I was only a counselor for like a year. Uh, I met a lot of people through that, but it was like the first time many of us. So they did , they used to do this like , uh, international exchange thing. And so it was the first time I'd ever met somebody from another country. So there was one counselor, her name was Ilga ? No, yeah, it was Ilga . She was from Sweden, which like stereotypical name, but she was from Sweden and then there was Tristan who was from Australia. And it was the first time many of us had ever met. And then , um, we had someone from south , uh, South Africa once and became very good friends with him. And so it just opened up a whole world for us. Like I'm from the middle of nowhere where else, like we wouldn't have gotten those exchanges. And then as a part of the conference too there , so our presbytery then had a , had a relationship with a church in South Korea and our camp is in Bennettsville, South Carolina, the most southern place you'll ever meet. So imagine the exchange with this. We had, we hosted a all w all all women choir from South Korea. They came to Bennettsville, South Carolina, we hosted them at the camp and the conversations we had, you would not believe, and the none of them knew English, but somehow we all communicated with one another and it was the best time. I'll never forget that because we had just the best time like getting to know one another in ways that like, that kind of crossed like the language barrier. And so it was just kind of this like wild experience that we all had that we never would've had anywhere else. And so yeah, it, it ju there's just something about that space that opens up a lot of opportunity that we may not think about. But, but I also think about like, you know, camps also display humanity in all of its <laugh> in all of its things. We all, we all used to hear like things happening at camp and things like that, but it's like all, it's like all of humanity is put on display because it's , that's what it's made out of . It's like people are there and, and I just remember learning so much about like social skills and like boundaries and all those things because it was all of us young people like working together. And so I wonder about that too. Like, you know, how has camp really kind of taught us like those skills that we, that we all still kind of have or like have developed, you know?
Speaker 3Right. I think a lot of camps try to model that sort of genuine care and welcome, you know, almost every camp has a mission statement that says a place apart for to welcome others. Right. Um, that welcome is, is just the baseline. Uh, so a lot of staffs are trained to really do that well. And that's, that means some , um, looking for good words. Well that means we, we need to be kind to one another. That means to be, we need to be patient with one another. Um, I remember conflict resolution skills being part of my staff training so that if if kids did get into an argument about something, we could really sit down and talk through it and process feelings and process actions together , uh, and, and really try to live in community well for the time, whatever that is. Whatever limited time we were going to be a group. Um , so that being kind of what everyone's trying to to model just plays outward, ripples outward, that kids are seeing that as the norm and then they can practice that themselves in a safe place with one another. Uh, where there are caring adults who are going to stop and help them if they slip up along the way. And I think that's so important to have a place to practice those kinds of attitudes and behaviors , um, that we can kind of exist in a bubble for a little while and, and figure out how to get along. You know, we're hot, we're sweaty, we're tired, we are not our best selves necessarily the whole time, but we can still find grace and we can still practice communication and we can still love one another in all kinds of ways. And if we can do that when we're hot and sweaty and tired, then certainly we can try that elsewhere in the world.
Speaker 2Yeah, I was very hot and sweaty <laugh> in summertime in South Carolina. <laugh>. It was hot and I wasn't very happy a lot of the time . <laugh> <laugh> ,
Speaker 3Right? Yeah. We get a little bit crabby when we're uh, when it's a long hot afternoon and you've been on a hike and uh, you need a snack and some more water. Uh, yeah. Uh, fuses run a little bit short and we have to work through that because we still have to stay in the same cabin at the end of the day. We still have to be in the same small group at the end of the day.
Speaker 1I think also, this is sort of back to the experience of the , the camper experience , uh, when being, whether you're in middle school or in high school in particular for that age group, there's some different phases that every middle school and high schooler goes, goes through. I remember when, I'm pretty sure when we went to mata in middle school, that was the, we were on the edge of we're too cool, the we're too cool phase <laugh> . And then so what, of course, what did we do? We get dropped at Bassine Netta and we're doing energizers and I am just looking around at all these people doing these energizers and I'm looking over at some of the folks that that I'm there with. And it's like this look of just utter what do I do? Because there's what this body of people is doing and then there's everything that I think is cool and these things do not, they do not compute in my mind as a middle schooler, if that makes sense. Right.
Speaker 3Nobody looks cool doing an energizer, but we do them anyway. Can I say something about energizers?
Speaker 1Sure. Just be aware that Lee
Speaker 2And it's on topic .
Speaker 1Yeah. Just be aware that Lee and I have very different ,
Speaker 2It's the point of contention about , I wanna contention,
Speaker 3I wanna hear it. Uh, I did not grow up <laugh> . I did not grow up doing energizers. I grew up going to summer camp. I did not grow up with youth conferences, so energizers were not a thing I learned until well into adulthood and I wasn't crazy about them. Uh, dancing is not my spiritual gift. Um, and they're kind of goofy, right? And there's always like a million moves to learn coming to Macta , I am now responsible for programs that heavily feature energizers. So I needed to step up, get on board and um , it's a powerful thing to move together. And when in , when energizers were introduced to me as an opportunity to, to move together, to be a little bit vulnerable and goofy together , uh, and watching people make adaptations so that they're accessible for lots of different bodies and lots of different , uh, abilities. I don't hate them so much anymore. <laugh> uh , I know very controversial to ever have hated them . Uh, but it is , it's a really special thing when you've got a room full of awkward teenagers who are trying to figure out how to be cool , uh, or what cool even is for them. And they're all doing this dance together , uh, and maybe some more enthusiastically than others, but they're taking the chance to, to go through the motions and, and see how that feels and see what it feels like to be part of a large group of people doing that .
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1In particular.
Speaker 3Okay , so who loves them and who hates them ?
Speaker 1So I like them .
Speaker 2Oh. Can you guess? <laugh>. <laugh> .
Speaker 1I , I I like them and I , but I'll also be honest, I'm always one who's pretty much down to play along, even if I think it's slightly
Speaker 2Right,
Speaker 1Like corny or hokey .
Speaker 2Yeah. And I can't <laugh> it , it , it , it , uh, half of it is like my anxiety and the other half of it is like, like if I don't want to do it, I'm just not <laugh> . I'm just not gonna do it. But I do think it is like I can, I, I mean I can see it being like a very communal type thing. It's just very hard for me to , it's just very hard for me now. Oh , I'm definitely play game in the back. Yeah. Now I'll play a game. I will , um, I love to dance just not that way, you know, I love to dance all day long. I mean, we square dance when we were younger and that's what I really liked is like square dances and things like that. I, you know, and if everybody, not everybody on this that's listening to this will know what Energizer is, but Energizer is kind of these dances to these songs that basically is supposed to like energize you and like get you ready for something and they're like different songs and choreography and things like that. But,
Speaker 3But all dancing ,
Speaker 2It does kinda open people's up . It can be done . Yeah.
Speaker 3All dance moves that can be done in an aisle or a pew or in a row of chairs. So not very complicated. Not, not a lot of motion going on, but enough to get you up and move in, get the blood pumping before you sit down for a keynote or worship or something like that.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. I just, I just don't like it when people look at you when you are not doing it and I'm like, yeah, I'm just not gonna do it . <laugh>. It's like, you know, I, I wish people were just open for us who might not be, who might nsh not be ready for it. Um, cuz I've never been that way and I'm a pretty extroverted person. I'm not, I'm really introverted, but I present as an extrovert <laugh>. But I do think it is kind of like, you know, if if people choose not to that's okay. It doesn't mean we're absolutely antisocial, but Yeah. Um, but I, but I also wanted to, to ask about when it comes to camps, I, I do know that camp and conferences and retreats, I think in the national kind of way, like get a bad rap because of certain ways that camp has been done. I mean the documentary of like Jesus camp and like all these things like when people think about camp, it's people , uh, that might not be familiar with like the P C U S A or other denominations that may have a different way of doing camp and a different way of doing theology. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that. Like what, what kind of things like, like theologically are like centered in the kind of camp and conference and retreats that we are talking about. Because I do think a lot of people have a very skewed idea of what it is. It could, it's it has, there are different camps, y'all, and, but I would just like to, let's just put it out there. What are like the core theological things that you think kind of encompass this idea of camp and conference and retreat?
Speaker 3Yeah, I think it can be, I think it's probably really scary to send your kid away for a week or a few days and not be with them and not be able to watch and see what's going on. And I think a setting like that does run the risk of manipulating that vulnerability in some really harmful ways that we can take those moments of, oh, I am off in the woods with this group of people and I can be open with them. Um, and that can be a really scary thing. And I think , uh, uh, in some settings could be potentially a theological stick sticky spot , um, that, that maybe some not so welcoming ideas are coming up. Something I really love about being involved in that the Presbyterian church camps and conferences association PCA that I mentioned earlier is I get to know a lot of colleagues around the US and Canada who are doing this same work. And honestly, I think Presbyterian camps are really centered on this idea of welcome in really beautiful and powerful ways that we really are working to figure out how to welcome people of different genders and different experiences in different races. Um, and making it a safe space to talk about these things in honest and vulnerable ways, but respectful ways , uh, that we're, we're never trying to make an example of someone , um, or tokenize people who are participating in our programs, but we want to make them safe and accessible for everyone. And so I've seen colleagues all over North America doing great work to this, having policies of inclusion and being creative about housing that was built in a time where everybody was small and skinny and able bodied or assumed to be at least. Uh, and on a gender binary , uh, I see a lot of camps working to navigate around the, the physical structures that they've inherited , um, but also the institutional ones that didn't always include everyone. We want to be a place that welcomes everyone and there's a lot of work to be done to make that happen. Uh , and I'm so grateful to these colleagues who are, who are really working hard on that.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think that that's really important and it's, it's especially meaningful when you go somewhere else that's not your main context where you may not be sure if sometimes it's harder to feel welcomed in the context that you're regularly in and then when you go somewhere else and you are able to find it there, there's something fulfilling about that. And now that you know, you've found it before, you know, it gives you a better idea of what to look for and other aspects of your life. Like, oh, you know, maybe I don't always feel accepted in this aspect of my community for x or y reason. But when I went to this experience out in, for lack of a better word, out in the woods, I did feel that and I wasn't expecting that. How can I find that when I go back home? Maybe it means changing my community, maybe it doesn't, but at least I know what that felt like for the span of a few days.
Speaker 3I think that really matters. Uh, and not just for sort of these really deepest, most important parts of our identity , uh, what we look like, who we love, who we are, but even just for a kid who's maybe into some hobbies that aren't so popular, right? Like the, the people who would get called nerds at school, they come to a place like camp where the attitude is welcome from the very beginning. They learn something about, oh no, I'm okay how I am and so is everybody else who's different from me. And I think that's a really good way for kids to learn to be more loving and welcoming of lots of different kinds of people so that when they do get to these trickier moments of, oh wait, somebody's identity isn't quite what I expected it to be, or something that I really understand at all, they might be able to slow down and appreciate that different doesn't mean bad, different just means different. And that can be celebrated in a lot of really beautiful ways.
Speaker 2Yeah. That's, that's one thing I took away is, you know, I mean I played, I played the stereotypical sports that I was expected to play, but that didn't last very long <laugh> . And I was more artsy and I was more, you know, humanities type thing. And so it was a great place to kind of figure that out. And like I can learned guitar at camp and I learned to sing in front of people at camp, which was is like my, like kryptonite. I don't like to perform in front of people. I don't like to sing in front of people and, and it j being there may like, it just provided opportunity for me to kind of like face that and do that more. And I think that really helped. Um, and it was, people thought it was kind of cool that I could play an instrument and that wasn't the thing back at home. Like, I mean guitars maybe, but like music and things like that, you know, were all in our family but like in school and stuff like that, it wasn't like the cool thing to do or like anything like that. So yeah, I can definitely see that. And it really kind of empowered me to kind of like search on how to be more authentic cuz you met people who like were themselves no matter what. I mean we had some great counselors and there were two in particular that I'm, I'm still , I still talk to, but they are the people that were the most themselves, the entirety of the time that they were there. Um, and so that just, it just kind of opens up that like, search for who you are, which I really appreciated while I was in the middle of the woods. As we say sweat .
Speaker 3I love that. Yes. <laugh>,
Speaker 2<laugh> ,
Speaker 3I love that. And I think it gives us a chance too to look for the things that we love that we might not have known about. So I was a kid who grew up playing outside. I lived in the suburbs, but uh, between the beach and a forest in New Jersey. So I had plenty of nature in my upbringing, but I had no idea how much that environment meant to me until I was a camp counselor who was asked to lead a nature program for a week and leading kids on hikes and watching them get really excited about this rock or this bug or what's that bird we heard. Um , I really started thinking about how all of these things are connected and this is my passion. I love thinking about , uh, the interconnectedness of creation and how we are connected to it. And I don't know if I would've caught that because I wasn't taking these classes in school. I wasn't part of any kind of nature club back home. Uh, I played outside, but it was sort of like what we did. It wasn't , uh, wait a second. This is what I love. This is something that really feeds me , uh, emotionally and spiritually and intellectually. And it's still, you know, it's not, it's not the main focus of my work as a program director anymore, but now I go out and I hike in my free time because that, that is the most restorative thing I can do for myself. And that's , uh, a passion I might not have noticed right away if I didn't have that opportunity to see other people doing it at camp and getting so excited about it.
Speaker 1Yeah, there really is something powerful about just seeing other people being excited about something. Uh, not, not to revisit a topic again, but thinking about when you're a young, when you're a kid in middle school or high school and you see particularly like late high school, college age young adults doing something that in your own mind, in your own social circles, again, you think like, that's not cool. But then you see them doing it and it challenges your understanding about like, wait a minute, but they're doing it and they're cool because they have to be cool cuz they're older, right? <laugh> . And so now it , it just forces you to just take a breath and like think about maybe I'm Overrating <laugh> or overvaluing some of these things and it's really not about being cool, it's just about finding the thing that you enjoy and being present in this moment. And there's something really powerful about that, whether it's in Energizers or, I remember looking, again, I looked at the other folks, the other middle schoolers in my group. Half of them were doing it and half of 'em were looking at each other like, are you doing this? Are we doing , are you doing this? Are we doing this? Am I doing this <laugh> ? And not everyone did it and that's okay. I didn't judge anyone who didn't do it cuz I get it. There are folks like Lee who are just like, this ain't, this is not my jam. That's okay. <laugh> . But I also remember the, there was like a , a sort of like party celebration at the end of our, our week and all of the, the counselors lined up in the, might have been the dining hall, I can't even remember, but it was, it was this big room and they just started playing music and it became this big dance party. And I remember my counselor in particular along with quite a few others, and what was even better was that it was young adults that were counselors and even some older folks like middle-aged, they were all just totally breaking it down to um, larger than life by the Backstreet Boys. The great song song, great song.
Speaker 3That's amazing.
Speaker 1But to, but when you see that as a middle schooler where it's like, oh no, I'm gonna do that, you know, I'm gonna put myself out there. That's not cool. No, no, no, no. And then you see that it's like, yeah, let's get down, let's give it a shot. And that moment stuck with me far beyond the camp experience. I also now have this very, if you can't tell very nostalgic feeling for that particular song, cause it takes me right back to that particular moment. But there is something powerful to that and I don't think I would've done that had I just been back with my church youth group and we were trying to do something similar,
Speaker 3Right? You've got a lot of different role models in that space. Uh, on the flip side of that, think about the adults who were breaking it down in that moment who might not have otherwise done it except they knew they had a room full of middle school students. They had to motivate and model and encourage for. Uh, so I think that changes the whole community. It's not just good for teenagers, it's a beautiful intergenerational experience and it gives us grownup types and opportunity to also try silly and different things. I will do anything for a middle school student. I will make an absolute fool of myself in front of middle school students because I want to model that it's okay to take those chances. Would I do that in front of my own friends? Maybe <laugh> . I keep some pretty good friends around who would support me through that nonsense. But it is, it's really special to be able to share that with a room full of people who are all just trying to figure it out for themselves. Right?
Speaker 2Yeah. And I have a nephew in middle school now and middle school's hard. It really is. And I think it's harder now than it was when we were in middle school.
Speaker 3Definitely.
Speaker 2And so I think it's just very rough to be a kid. Uh, and middle school is just that those years that just like, I don't ever want to go back to them <laugh>. I wouldn't want to relive that. And so I think anything we can do to like, to us to like walk with them in that space because it's all about like testing. Like, you know, like what is cool, what's not, like what can I do? What can I not like? Am I just, there's so many things happening in that age and I'm seeing it in one of my nephews now who is like, kind of like I was in middle school, like very kind of like, I was very reserved. I was very shy and that might surprise people, but I do, I was that type of middle schooler who didn't do talk a lot and I was kind of like the smart one or whatever, nerdy. And so I see it now in him and yeah, there are ways to kind of walk with them in that way. So I'm very grateful for this conversation and for camps. But I also wanted to ask like, what is going on at MATA these days? Like, tell us a little about what's going on before we close and maybe people can, can get involved a little bit.
Speaker 3We'd love to welcome folks. Uh, I am just about ready to dive deep into summer mode. Uh, so we have over the summer, four weeks of middle school conferences , um, week of Bible and church music, which is an intergenerational conference , uh, where we've got choirs and we've got bible studies and everybody comes together for some really incredible worship in the evenings. And we've got a wonderful lineup of preachers for that. Um , and folks can come drop in for a day the whole week. Uh, we have a clergy couples retreat at the end of the summer called, called Together , uh, that lets clergy couples and their families , uh, spend some time with a whole bunch of other people in the same kind of situation where you've got a lot of different discernment packed into one household. And then throughout the year we've got a lot of different opportunities going on. We have a new Matthew 25 conference for high school students in November. We call it Keep Awake. Uh, and it's a really powerful opportunity to develop some leadership skills and to connect with a lot of other folks from different backgrounds. We had about 200 people participate in the first one last fall, so we're really excited to offer it a second time as a pay what you can , uh, which, which brings in a lot of new people who weren't always able to come to our programs. And we run a whole bunch of other retreats throughout the year and and offer space to other groups that want to use it for their own retreats and meetings , uh, which is something that most camp and conference centers do. So if MATA is not in your neighborhood, I hope , uh, I hope folks will check out whatever their local camp is. Most Presbyterians are connected to someone somewhere, so ask around, find out or you know, call me at mata and I will gladly help you find your local camp <laugh>.
Speaker 1Awesome. Well we are so grateful to you, Colleen, for coming on the podcast. We'll have a link to Mata Springs in the show notes. And also just a reminder to folks that camp conferences retreats, it's not just for middle schoolers and high schoolers, it is for people of every age. And so I know we spent a decent amount of time talking about the importance of camps and conference and retreat center experiences for young people, but they're just as valuable no matter your age. And if you don't wanna do energizers, you don't have to. That may not even be part of the programming for adults. But again, that's right . Check out. Yeah , find your local , uh, camp at conference center. And again, thank you so much Colleen, for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 3Thanks so much for having me today. It's so fun to talk about camp with friends. So thank you.
Speaker 2Well, thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Faith , the Presby podcast. And thanks for calling for being with us and talking about camp and conferences because you know, they're very impactful times in our lives. So thank you Colleen, for being with us and we want you all to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Also leave us a review. We would really love to hear from you. If you have any questions, send them to Fate podcast@pcusa.org. Also, check out our website, a matter of fate podcast.com. There you will find our Spanish podcast and our Korean podcast and our listening guides and all things a matter of fate . So check out the website and again, we will talk to you next week.