A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Welcome to A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us and it just might be a matter of faith. Whether it be faith in God, faith in others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Office of Faith-Based Investing & Corporate Engagement, the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program, and Unbound: An Interactive Journal on Christian Social Justice for the Presbyterian Church (USA). Submit questions to faithpodcast@pcusa.org. LISTENING GUIDES FOUND IN PODCAST SHOW NOTES.
A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast
Is Divinity School for You?? w/ Vicki Flippin
Question for the Week:
Recently, the live action film version of The Little Mermaid was release in movie theaters. It has done well in the US but has had a more mixed reception overseas, especially in China and South Korea, likely due to the casting of a black actress in the lead role. How are we to understand this? What if Jesus was cast as a person of color in a film?
Special Guest: (27:40)
Rev. Vicki Flippin, Associate Dean for Student Affairs, Yale Divinity School
Guest Question:
What is the difference between divinity school and seminary? Why would someone interested in ordination or theological studies want to consider pursuing divinity school for their graduate school education?
Yale Divinity School
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A Matter of Faith website
Well , hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions of faith, justice, and church life. Don't forget to write in to us and send us your question. And why would people do that, Lee ?
Speaker 2:Because y'all, if it matters to you, it matters to us and it just might be a matter of faith . And hello everyone. Hey Simon. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm good, Lee . Doing well, and so glad to be with you all. It is getting warmer and warmer every day . Some people may not like that, but in this part of the country it's good. It's , uh, yeah , it's spring slash beginning of summer. I mean, I guess it is June, but yeah, I'm glad for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm always on the fence cuz I run hot and I never really liked seeing summer come because I can handle it. I don't like it. And especially now, because when you're in like a city and it's a lot of asphalt and concrete, it just holds the heat even more. So you're basically in a big frying pan in a way . Yep . Right. And now, and we're talk about this a little bit, but with the wildfires in Canada, DC has a cloudy smoke haz coming upon it. And so it's, it's a weird time. It kind of looks apocalyptic outside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's looking smoky . And folks, if you're feeling a little smoky about listening to us, do some opening banter and introductory questions, feel free to skip to the timestamp in the show notes for our guest segment. We hope you'll stay with us. And we also hope that for folks that are affected by the wildfires, that you do what you need to, to take care of yourself. I know that this smoky , smoky air is also particularly difficult, for example, for people with asthma or any sort of respiratory breathing , uh, issues. So prayers for, for those folks, and hopefully also y'all will get some rain to wash that away a little bit. Yeah ,
Speaker 2:It's clear that air out. It's , it's very eerie because I don't think I've ever seen this much before and it's even reached down to like South Carolina where like my parents are are seeing it on the coast. And as we all know, climate change, these things happen more and more and we all just need to do our part because Yep . I mean they even re requesting us to wear masks because the air quality is so bad. So Yeah. Yeah. It's very inter it's, it's kind of kind of scary a little bit. So yeah. So that's interesting. But climate change all ,
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, it re addressing climate change and climate issues requires us to come together. And speaking of coming together in the sports world, particularly in the golf world, there is a coming together of two major pro tours. That's right. For folks that may not know the P g A tour and the l I V tour have announced that they're gonna create a new entity to combine . And for folks that may not have been following this story closely, there's the, the P G A tour, which is sort of the main pro golf tour that everyone ha that everyone knows. And about a year and a half ago the l I V tour began and the l i V tour is , um, I believe it's backed by, by the Saudi government and the Saudi funded upstart, I should say it's a Saudi funded upstart. And there was sort of a lot of controversy about it because players were getting paid a lot of money to just join the L I V tour. But again, it comes from, you know, the Saudi estate, the Saudi government institutions , um, which is known for things like human rights abuses. And so there's a lot of questions around should people, should golfers be a part of this tour or not. Golfers really, some golfers were really supportive of it because you could actually make a living playing golf as opposed to making a li a living by winning golf, if that makes sense. In the l i v tour, the p g A tour and the l i v golf tour have announced that they're gonna create this new entity and combine their assets as well as those of the DP world tour, which is gonna radically change golf's governance will ha what will happen so far as the details come out is that the P G A tour will remain a nonprofit organization and retain full control over how its tournaments are played. But all of the P G A tour's, commercial business and rights , uh, would be owned by a new, still be to be named for-profit entity that is currently called NewCo , which will also own l i v as well as the commercial and business rights of the DP World tour. So, again, more details to come. Some golfers are having pretty strong reactions to this, some in favor of this merger, others against it, particularly those that never wanted to be a part of the , uh, the l i v tour. So it'll be interesting to see what happens moving forward, but we just wanted to follow up on that cuz we talked about this way back when the l i v first started, particularly because of the sort of more ethical concerns and now business is , uh, doing its thing and now it doesn't matter which one you wanna follow kind of because it'll, it will , it does matter, but it will be all part of sort of a, a parent organization. So we'll see what happens. Yeah,
Speaker 2:That's capitalism as at best, I guess <laugh>.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And again, this hasn't been fully approved yet. Um, this idea has yet to be approved by the PGA Tours policy board, which is kind of like its board of directors and so more to come, but it's, it's kind of big, pretty big for the sports world right now. So we'll have to just wait and see. But speaking of seeing things, I hope folks had a chance to go and see the live action film like remake, I guess it's a remake live action film version of The Little Mermaid, because we have a question written in about just that today's question reads Recently the live action film version of The Little Mermaid was released in movie theaters. It has done well in the US but has had a more mixed reception overseas, especially in China and South Korea, likely due to the casting of a black actress in the lead role. How are we to understand this? What if Jesus was cast as a person of color in a film? Lee, did you have a chance to go see The Little Mermaid if you haven't to highly recommend it? I enjoyed it. I have,
Speaker 2:I have not seen it just because I just haven't had a lot of time. But I have read a lot of reviews, I've read a lot of things about it and I've seen some clips and you know, I really, I don't, I don't necessarily understand and I don't understand a lot of things, but I don't under , I really can't quite grasp the complete outcry of this simply because have you ever seen a mermaid,
Speaker 1:You mean like a real life mermaid or like in mythology and folk
Speaker 2:Like a real, a real life mermaid? Have you ever seen one?
Speaker 1:No,
Speaker 2:Neither have I <laugh> . And the fact is, neither did Walt Disney, neither did whoever has created any of this. And so it was a choice by Disney the first time to make Aeriel White. That was a choice. And we all have conversations about white supremacy and racism within film, even within animation and representation. That was an intentional choice because I don't know who's seen a mermaid and I'm not even gonna argue whether or whether or not they exist cuz I don't know. Somebody the other day said if we compared the amount of the ocean that we know, it is literally a drop, a drop within a 12 ounce glass of water. That's how much of the ocean we know about. So I'm not gonna argue about that. But the fact is, and I think this is a testament to how racism and white supremacy really does also impact people of people of color as well, who also perpetuate this. And I know colorism is a , a thing that we have talked about before in some cases whenever we talked about like South Korea and, and what that means, like darker skin tones and things of that nature, what beauty is in certain context. But I, yeah, it's interesting that we have a conver like even racism and white supremacy infiltrate mythical creatures that we have never seen before. And in fact, I will probably, if they do exist, I don't think they're gonna fall into our construct of racism. That's the <laugh> that's so in anything it was Walt Disney's fault or whoever drew Ariel in the first place because racism really, why wasn't she purple? Or why di do they have constructs of gender? I don't know if that exists in that world. Yeah. Cuz we made all that up. So it's very interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I saw the, the live action film. I really enjoyed it. And the , the other thing about this particular live action, like many of the Disney live action film versions of their previously animated films, it's a very diverse cast overall. I mean, so Holly Bailey is the actress who plays Ariel and her father is played by Javier Bardo . And then you guys , and something that this film does is you get to meet or see a lot of Ariel's sisters who are varieties of played by , um, actresses of a variety of different races and ethnicities and identities, which is pretty cool. Something that's pretty, pretty neat. Uh, and originally I was off put by that because I was like, well, shouldn't they all look similar? And I was like, no, no, no. You know what, this is a magical, this is magic. Right? Right . This is fantastical and therefore there can be multiple identities and races represented within that, which I , I was like, that's pretty neat. And then in addition to that, outside of the the male lead, there wasn't really another person who I would, who at least I clearly could call white in a leading role pretty much. Um, so that was also something else. So there's, there was more diversity. So again, that's good. Also, we all know diversity cells now, at least within the states , so there is, there is some business sense to that as well. Yeah,
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But again, Holly Bailey absolutely knocked it out of the park in this role, sang really well, acted really well. And I was reading an article on C n N about some of the backlash from foreign audiences and not all foreign audiences in markets by the way, but as this question mentions particularly China, South Korea, and there's this one quote that I saw where, you know, someone said, in my mind, Ariel is white, and now that this, now that Ariel's being played by a black actress, it has changed this fairytale that I grew up with to something that I don't recognize anymore. Which I think is interesting because it is not your fairy tale , if that makes sense. It is one that you may relate to and one that you are fond of, but we don't claim ownership over something because the property exists on its own, regardless of our own thoughts on it. If that makes sense. Yeah. And I think that's something else where it's like, for this question as it relates to Jesus, what if Jesus was cast a person as a person of color? First of all, Jesus was not a white man because that area of the world is not necessarily what we would classify in the modern sense as white. Right.
Speaker 2:In terms of , and we know that like
Speaker 1:Yeah , racial, ethnic , we might not
Speaker 2:Know if mermaids exist, but we know that Yeah.
Speaker 1:<laugh> and we know that. So there , so there's that part that we're, that in our, in our own tellings about what Jesus may or may not have looked like. We, we tell ourselves sort of a false narrative about that. But I think there's also the fact that it's like, oh, well my Jesus is white, or as you've talked about on previous podcast, Lee , my Jesus has a six pack . Not that, not that you think that, but that people do portray Jesus in that way. And I just want us to, to think about the fact that we don't own any of these stories, whether it's fiction or truth. We don't own them. There's ways that we relate to them. And I think any story that can be adapted slightly to be more inclusive to other people so that you see yourself in it and therefore maybe can get a little bit more from the story. I think there's some value to that. Yeah . Can I say that ? Can I, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Well, and you know, the Little Mermaid was in and of itself based off of an older story story .
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which in all actuality is pretty heinous and not, it's, it's kind of like a horror story and not <laugh> kind of the happy go-lucky thing that we see and how Disney interpreted it. So if anything, what we are seeing is another adaptation of something that was even older than the original Little Mermaid. So again, it's, we're still kind of building upon, and I kind of see this also as scripture in a way that like the Little Mermaid, the original fairytale was obviously had been told throughout oral history and then finally got written down somewhere. And that's kind of how scripture is, how we interpret it , how it got here, and then how we envision it as people who are trying to understand it. And when you add in the societal things that we have created, like racism and white supremacy and homophobia and all these other things, that translation or those ways we experience those stories are then, in my mind, tainted even more because those things influence how we interpret it. And then how we kind of put that interpretation out there. So in all actuality, you know, none of these things are ours because of just how old they are. But I do know, you know, how we interpret it as obviously ours and when it comes to Jesus, the artistic interpretations of Jesus, because then we didn't have anything, a picture, we didn't have a drawing like that. I don't think that necessarily was something that happened. But when the Renaissance happened and when all these artists started painting stuff that cultivated, and they just used themselves as the depiction of it, but in reality, they all knew that Jesus was a brown person. Like, I don't think that anybody who drew Jesus actually thought he was white. They might, I mean, some might have, but I think it was an intentional with a mix of, well, I want to see myself in Jesus and so I'm just gonna paint Jesus white. So I think that that is also with like Roman, like all those cultures that were coming together, then Rome didn't, Rome really wanted to wipe all that out. So it's like, it all comes together in a weird way. And now we're talking about the Little Mermaid and people are getting mad that the Little Mermaid is being represented by a wonderful black singer and actress and just an all around like wonderful human being I think. And we're getting mad about it when, I don't know, we don't even know <laugh> , we don't even know what they look like. That's the thing I, I mean, I always think about like, what if, what if a real mermaid was, I don't know, purple and had guilt and like, and what you would need was much more fish like . Yeah. Or looked a lot more, that's the thing, fish like , yeah. It's like, honestly the Little Mermaid is gonna look more like flounder than it looks like us. Like that's the thing. Like that's just kind of how it is. We personified these things because human beings think we're just the rulers of the world. And even a mermaid needs to look like a human. No, that's not possible, I don't think. I don't know. But the one thing I do know about these new movies that Disney needs to figure out is how to make them less realistic
Speaker 1:<laugh>,
Speaker 2:Because it's, it just bothers me. They're just a little too realistic. But also I heard that the person who played Sebastian, that was not his real accent really . The accent was made up.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:Which is also problematic because of course in the original he was, it has a Jamaican accent, which is a whole nother conversation that I don't hear a lot of people having. But you know, there's also the thing about, you know, Ursula, her makeup, Melissa McCarthy's makeup should have been better because the original Ursula was based off drag performer divine. I did not do that. And why didn't a drag performer beat was asked to do her makeup? So like, all these questions are coming up with these things where like the original intent of these characters, you know
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Were kind of put into play . So there was a lot of things about the Little Mermaid Yeah . And people's reaction to it that I think is really interesting. And it does play a lot into, like our church and how we view the people in our narratives. And you know, I think it's something that it's, it's interesting that the physical appearance of someone is the actual, is the actual thing that people get so upset about. And that in and of itself is an interesting dynamic to think about is that yeah , your whole world is going to crumble because your physical view of Jesus was this and you know, like the teachings and things like that, or I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah . Your , yeah. Your comment on Melissa McCarthy reminds me, I should walk back. One comment I made earlier, I think I had said there was only one, I guess clearly human character who was clearly identified as white two , because Mr . McCarthy, Melissa McCarthy is Ursula, and then I forgot his name, but the actor who plays the male lead in the Little Mermaid as well, but still only, only like two, I guess, obvious white folks. And then a lot of diversity in the human character . Human clearly human or humanesque characters. Um , yeah . Which is, which is pretty diverse, which is exciting. I think something else that what you've brought up makes me think about is the, just the, the, the cross-cultural translation, or I should say the cro , uh, trying to take some of these properties across cultural context and why that may or may not work. Um, in the US there's so much more of a push for speci for diversity and representation, which may or may not exist in other countries currently in other markets because their , their cultural context is so different. Yeah. In the same way that you may not be able to talk about , uh, for example, issues in certain contexts because of the culture, you may not be able to have the same conversation about the identity of a character, even if this thing is purely fictional.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because of the cultural context. That doesn't excuse the fact that I think people shouldn't be way more inclusive and open-minded. I hope that we all get there eventually. But there is this definite culture , maybe a cult . There could be a cultural divide or a cultural barrier there that is just not being talked about, per se. It's just being seen as, oh, these people on this side of the world think that Ariel should be white. But there may be more to that than simply that statement. Um, it doesn't justify that everyone j May , that folks should think that a character should or should not be a particular way. Yeah . But for example, can you imagine if Harry Potter was redone and he was black or Latinx or Asian?
Speaker 2:Well , they Interesting . They're starting that series on hbo. What is that ?
Speaker 1:Oh, that , yeah. Well, of course it's on HBO o <laugh>,
Speaker 2:So we'll see. Yeah. But I , I mean, and , and I get that like, there are, there, I mean, we've even had moments in the work that we do to where our denomination is so progressive, but we also have, you know, partners and churches in different parts of the world to where this conversation is, it's, it's at a different space. Yeah . And I think that when, and not to excuse that, but I just think like, we will never know the cultural context of China or South Korea because we aren't , we haven't been brought up in, in that or are not so immersed in it that we just don't know how that will work. But I mean, even in Europe, like conversations around around identity and racism are far different than they are here. In fact, I think sometimes in the US for all the, the, the crap that goes on here and the stuff that we just can't handle, I do think in some ways the , the language and the conversations we do have are, are more. Now, I will say I , I think that's different than Canada. I think in some ways Canada's has more language than we do in some ways. We're the people we've talked about. So it , it is very different. How do we have those conversations while being culturally sensitive, but also saying, well, isn't it an issue that we think that aerial should look like this? And, and how does that, how is that displayed within the culture and why , and why is that? And what is the language that can, can start developing? But that'll only happen with people within that space. And I'm fully aware of that because I think in some ways our neoliberal type way of doing things is also colonial. Like, I think that if we were to go and say, yo shouldn't think this, like me as a white person from the US going to South Korea and being like, y'all don't need to be this way. Who am I to do that? Because in any case, white evangelical churches, well actually just churches in general exported this stuff. We are the ones to blame for all this. So it's like, how do you have those kind of conversations in a way that is culturally sensitive?
Speaker 1:Yep .
Speaker 2:But Mermaid, do you think they're real?
Speaker 1:Who knows? I mean, <laugh> ,
Speaker 2:That's what I say. That's what I say. Who knows. Right? I would
Speaker 1:Never
Speaker 2:Say they don't exist. I really
Speaker 1:Wouldn't . Well , in the same way that it's like, do aliens exist? It's, they have to, space is very vast and the ocean is actually vast too. Is it as vast as all of space? No, but it is a world unto itself that we don't know everything about.
Speaker 2:We have no idea. We have no clue. And if anything, they probably wanna stay as far away from us as possible. And that's the same with aliens or other beings out there. I bet they ca I bet. I mean, people have probably seen them and they're like, I'm not getting near them. You think I'm, I will never say something doesn't exist. I don't. I am one of those types of people.
Speaker 1:Hmm .
Speaker 2:Because somebody saw something somewhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's a, there's a part of me that is like, I believe it when I see it, but I'm, I'm not quite that cynical, if that makes sense. Like I'm, I'm open to it. Like I wouldn't be surprised if it existed. But that doesn't mean I'm sitting here already convinced that something exists, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah. So maybe
Speaker 1:Is pretty fair,
Speaker 2:But I'm , I might be pretty certain that it isn't gonna be humanlike.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Or at least not
Speaker 2:Like way that we may expect .
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think if a mermaid existed, they would look very much more like a reptile or a fish than a human.
Speaker 2:I I would think they, I think they would in be anything but white. Yeah. Being white in nature is not necessarily the biggest advantage. Right. Unless you're like in a snow tundra. That's it. It's not an advantage in the ocean, everyone. Yeah. Albino animals normally do not survive. And if you see one that's very rare, and the only reason why it's rare is because a predator will see that thing. Yeah . Unless it is a predator itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Little
Speaker 2:Bit of science, everyone, it's not a good advantage to be <laugh> to be white in nature as an animal. Just so you know.
Speaker 1:It's true.
Speaker 2:You can look it up in biology books.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, folks, why don't you write in and let us know, have you seen The Little Mermaid? What did you think of it? What do you think of this conversation surrounding the film? As well as just around diversity and representation more broadly in the film industry? We hope to hear from you and we hope that you will enjoy our conversation with the Reverend Vicki Flippen , who is the Associate Dean for Student Affairs at Yale Divinity School, talking to us about the divinity school experience and the advantages and opportunities to going to divinity school, as well as how it compares with going to a seminary. So check out our conversation with Vicky .
Speaker 2:Well , joining us today on the podcast is a very special guest. We have Reverend Vicky Flippin , who is the Associate Dean for Student Affairs at Yale Divinity School. Joining us today. Welcome Vicky to the podcast.
Speaker 3:Thank you. It's an honor to be present with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while and really looking forward to having you on the podcast. Vicky , as we're thinking about some questions related to the education of our leaders in our churches and in our congregations, is also just around the call to go to divinity school or to seminary. So our question for today reads, what is the difference between divinity school and seminary? Why would someone interested in ordination or theological studies want to consider pursuing divinity school for their graduate school education?
Speaker 3:Great. Well, and I, I hope Lee you'll jump into having , uh, graduated from Vanderbilt, but I, my understanding is that divinity schools are like seminaries and that they're, they do train folks for, you know, professional ministry, but they are also connected to a university. And so they have some of the advantages of , uh, having the cross-disciplinary , uh, opportunities and things like that. Um, and another thing about divinity schools more than I think many seminaries, is that they are very ecumenical. So you'll have , uh, students there from lots of different denominations or from no denomination or even non-Christian students , um, who are there preparing for lots of different things. Uh, some will be preparing for PhD programs and lives in academia. Um, and some will be preparing for like local church ministry, a more traditional path. And many students will also be preparing for other kinds of things that, that they may or may not call ministry. Things like going into nonprofit work or the , like, what the things that you do , uh, doing kind of all kinds of things like communication about religion and spirituality. So it's a , it's a great opportunity, I think for folks to meet people from many different paths who are going on many different kinds of journeys. For me, I think going to a divinity school was a good place to be because I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do, or, and I also wasn't totally sold on a denomination. And so it was good for me to be around lots of different people. And in the end I was like, nah , I'm Methodist <laugh>, you know, I was born Methodist. And I was like, yeah, no . But it , I really enjoyed being around lots of people from all different, all different places and all different denominations and all different paths. I will also say, like, just to plug Divinity Schools, the opportunities to study with people across disciplines is really cool. You have people, you know, at the top of their , uh, fields and all in, you know, here we have the School of Management, we have the School of the environment, we have a religious studies department, which is different from, so that's more of, you know, studying religion from more of a, a theoretical and a academic standpoint. Whereas at the Divinity school we're , we're really engaging more of the practice of religion and, but we get to study with people who are, who are doing the academic work on religion and spirituality. Uh, part of our MDiv requirements was to take a, a course in a non-Christian religion. So I got to study with an Islamic scholar, you know, I got to go downtown to the main Yale campus and study with this incredible Islamic scholar. We have people who do dual degrees with different , uh, professional schools at Yale. So I mentioned School of Management and School of the Environment. We have lots of students who are doing dual degrees with school of environment. Some do dual degrees with school of management. And you can imagine, I, I'm sure with the paths that you both have taken and with a lot of the e even for me going to , um, going into parish ministry for 14 years, which I did, having management skills and like learning how to deal with finances and be in charge of, you know, a staff and all those leadership skills that are taught in, in a place like school management are so useful, <laugh> . Um, and here we have top scholars in, in those fields teaching our students , um, about those, those kinds of things. Um, so I think that's really exciting. We also have the Yale Chaplain's office. So, you know, these are folks who are not just doing, not just working with Christian students, but they have, we have a , a Muslim chaplain, a a Hindu chaplain, you know, a Buddhist chaplain, and our students get to interact with, with that office. And many of our students are going off to do chaplaincy, so they get to do that interfaith , um, work here. We also the resources of like the affinity groups , uh, of the larger university. So whereas at a smaller seminary, you might not be able to have, you know, like a , a Native American cultural Center. Uh, but we have that here at, at Yale. So our students who may identify as as native can go down and be a part of, of that community. We have a large, you know, L G B T , uh, center resource space where, where our students will be involved with those things. We have intramural sports, so we have a soccer team called the para cleats . Do you get it? <laugh>, the para cleats . Um, and they go and they'll have games against the School of Engineering or against the School of Medicine soccer team, you know, and we, so we get that's, that's just like a fun, fun piece of <laugh> being a divinity school and a part of a , a larger university system. Um, and we also have like Yale's whole office of International students and scholars. We , you know, our, our international students have those resources because we share them with the entire university system and not, not to mention the Yale Library. I mean, it's, it's a real, it's can be a real advantage to be able to explore all those things. It , you can explore really anything <laugh> and, and then come back and relate it to your theological education and like your vocation, what you're trying to do in the world. Um, yeah, so there's a , I don't know , leave you have other things to add too .
Speaker 2:Yeah. For listeners, I went to Vanderbilt Divinity School and oh , Vicki and I were talking before this, and Vanderbilt and Yale are , I mean, they have connections like our dean who is, she won't be our dean for long, but , um, Emily Towns , uh, was also at Yale for a while . And one of the reasons why I went to Vanderbilt. But I do think that, you know, for me, I really wanted the ecumenical experience and I really did get it <laugh> on a wide range of, I mean, you know, we had arranged from atheist to agnostic to, you know , uh, wcan to Orthodox, you know, it was a whole gamut of, of people in a one space learning together in a way that I think was really beneficial for me personally in my theologies. And, you know, being able to, to, to sit in a space together and have those conversations that I think are in , in a space that wasn't very judgmental . It was, we were all there to learn. And I think that that's kind of what the grounding of it was. It's not a , I mean, none of us were apologist for our own belief. You know, we were there to learn and like my new perf , my New Testament professor was Jewish and that got a whole different perspective of what that means to, to study scripture. And so I do think, you know, the divinity school setting for me personally is just what I wanted. Uh , I grew up Presbyterian and was all , and obviously I'm still am, I'm ordained in the P U S A, but I do appreciate my time at Vanderbilt because I'm not necessarily so, you know, stuck in the, the only way of me experiencing God is through a Presbyterian lens. And I think that my time at Vanderbilt was wonderful for that. I mean, I studied theology, womanist theology, we ba we took Constructive theology, which was, they kind of just threw it all out there and <laugh> like, what, what do you think about this? And so it was very , uh, empowering for me and very formation for me. Cuz I mean, that was my thesis. I was, I studied theology and that's what I wrote about and that's what I studied. And that's, I mean, I'm a person and that's how I, that's my lens. And to see and experience God through that and to be empowered to do that and the creativity that comes with it, I was, you know, empowered to write songs. I'm a songwriter and a musician, and I got to write music along with my thesis. And so it was just one of those things that I think really kind of lived into like who I was as a person. And I think if you really give into the experience of that school, of that kind of environment, yeah, it was very formation for me. So I'm not an apologist for Divinity Schools <laugh>, it was for me personally, something that I really did benefit a lot from, not only like professionally, because the connections, like you were saying, like you meet wonderful people that have nothing to do with religion. They're wonderful history professors and people who like can read like 10 or 20 ancient languages. It's really wild to to, to get to know people. So that was another thing. And it helped me personally to be in a space that was very inclusive, like Vanderbilt and what I've heard of Yale as well. And so yeah, it was very formation for me. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing without it. So, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the ecu the ecumenical piece of it was also like really good for me. I think I came here pretty sheltered. I grew up in, in Missouri, in the Bible Bell as a Methodist, so I didn't know that Christians drank alcohol <laugh>. I was like, no. But we would talk like, oh, you whisper about the churches in town where they would ta drink wine for communion. And we were like, Ooh , you know, <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I came here and , um, embedded within our divinity school as an Episcopal divinity school. Uh, and they definitely <laugh> , you know, have wine at communion and even at receptions, social events, they will have wine, you know? And I was like, wow. You know, I was, I , I came quite sheltered, but, you know, I made really great friends from all these denominations. And I think going out into the world of ministry, when you're in a town in , for me, like in a, in a church context, I think one of the main reasons why people feel , um, unsatisfied in church , in parish ministry is the sense of isolation. Because you're really there as a spiritual leader to the, to the flock to the people in your church. And there's, you can't have these mutual friendship relationships like you would with other people. And it's, it can be very isolating. And the people that you're, that I , I felt like I could most relate to were other clergy. And thank God, I, I had had these experiences where I knew that I could be really, you know, close friends with and relate well with , um, people from all different backgrounds , um, who did things a lot differently than I did , um, in my church, but could be really great friends and colleagues. And I, I learned those practices of relating well to, to people of all different traditions in seminary. And I just thought that that was, that became like a natural thing for me and in my life. And, and usually when you go out into the, into the world, into ministry, there aren't a lot of other clergy of your denomination in your town. It's people of all, all faith traditions. And so I just, I find that to be a really valuable piece of an ecumenical formation experience.
Speaker 1:We've talked on the podcast before about that, that sense of isolation that you can feel as a pastor or a , a leader in a congregation. It's really quite interesting how often it, it has come up on, on the podcast previously. But what you've just said I find very interesting because I don't know if I'd ever thought about the importance of one's education and giving someone the tools to recognize how to find those relationships and build those connections with other clergy. Because I think we always think about the people we're immediately working with, and that is often your congregants, but as you said, your relationship with your congregants has some boundaries to it. And so the idea that your education helps you foster relationships with other clergy people that you see as colleagues, I think that's pretty powerful. And maybe not something that is always , uh, touted as a selling point for that part of the education. Something else you said that I thought was pretty interesting was the importance of the intersectional teaching. And what I mean by that is, like you said, finance management, how to, how to lead people. If I had a , I, I've often thought I should keep a running list of the things they didn't teach my friends in seminary. And I wanna say the top three are usually something to do with leadership, interpersonal relationships, and finance. And so it's, it's exciting to hear that there are places not to hate on seminaries, but there are places where that is a part of the education for the future leaders of our churches and in our denominations. That's really exciting. Yeah .
Speaker 3:We have a diploma program here. Um, we , uh, we, we have two kind of embedded seminaries within our divinity school , um, the an Episcopal one , and then another called Andover Newton Seminary, which is , uh, a little bit more acumenical, but they , to receive their diploma , their diploma, their kind of , um, certification , um, you ha you're required to take classes at the school of management, which I think is just brilliant because I , you know, when you go out into parish ministry, you're a nonprofit leader , um, you're, you're the executive director of a nonprofit organization. You're like the head of a, of a, of a little company, <laugh> almost. And the same with the entrepreneurship that, that maybe you all are doing and the work that you all are doing, you, you also need those management skills. Um, it's, it's a huge piece of ministry and we can't act like we can just send people out there , um, with knowing how to read the Bible well and to preach well, there's a lot more to running a successful organization. I think it's a real
Speaker 2:Asset. Yeah. And, and I know in my experience, I was, I just knew people that were connected and I mean, and I think seminaries are getting better at this as, as we're, I mean, we always talk about how the church is declining a little bit <laugh> . And so these institutions have had to kind of pivot in ways that I think some, in some ways that I think are good things. I mean, relying on other people with that are experienced and have, are kind of experts in the things that I think we as a church are going to have to kind of lean into more. And for me, I mean, I've always been, not just bivocational, but like I've always done like three jobs at once. I mean, I've always had to, but I think with, with our generation and the generations after us, it's very common to do more than one job. And I think that when I was in divinity school, they really did kind of help me connect all those things. And so I was a graphic designer and worked in communications as well. And so with the connections that they had, I mean they connected me with like a Christian publishing place. So I worked for the upper room and your Methodist, you probably know what that is, <laugh>, the upper room. I really , um, matter every night <laugh> . Yeah. So I worked for the upper room and that was very formation for me. But it was also, I mean, with the field ed program and with the connections that the university just had, it was very helpful for me. But I also, during that time, and it always comes with like the expenses of these things, like I had to work throughout the time I was there, but I worked on like the campus because there was also connections and, and, but I also learned how to manage people because I managed a restaurant for three years and did so for a year while I was in school. And that was probably a learn more learning experience than anything I've ever done. But I will say that probably gave me more tools than I think sometimes like a theological education would because you just had to learn money management and you had to hire people. You also had to fire people, which is not something people talk about <laugh> in divinity school or seminary. It's like, yeah, you might have to hire somebody and you might have to fire them and you might have to deal with financial crisis and things of that nature. And so it's just interesting how, you know, some institutions just open up a lot of possibility because of the resources behind them. And I know a lot of divinity schools may have more of those resources than a seminary might have. But yeah, it's, it , it always comes up how we can better equip our leaders. And it's oftentimes, yeah, there's a lot of things that we focus on, but in the practical sense, the practical things are kind of pushed to the wayside and you just kind of have to learn on the job, you know? So yeah, it's just interesting
Speaker 3:And there's always gonna be some of that where you mm-hmm. <affirmative> , you just have to learn it on the job, or if you didn't learn it in your last job as a , as a restaurant manager, you're gonna have to learn it in the church, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Lee referenced the declining me sort of declining numbers in a lot of mainline Christian denominations, including the Presbyterian church, u s a . And I'm wondering if that trend of decline has either impacted, like things like numbers in terms of enrollment for things like divinity schools, but also how is it impacting maybe the focus of not just the education, but also maybe the perspectives of the students that are coming into divinity school?
Speaker 3:The most obvious way that it's impacting our , our school is that , and I think mo in most theological schools, it's the same that our number of Miv students , um, that's the, that's generally the degree that you would get to go into practical ministry , um, has declined in comparison to our , our, for example, master of Arts and Religion, which is a two year program in which students , uh, uh, it's more academic focused. It's not as much of the practical ministry stuff. So there we are seeing like fewer MDivs coming in and more people interested in the, in the more academic part. But I think we're also really expanding our definition of ministry. And I think our students are coming in with that sense too. They're coming to, they're still coming to a, a Christian centered space that does teach the practice of ministry and as daily chapel and things like that. Um, so they, so every student that comes here has some interest in spirituality and in the , the spiritual life or spiritual communities. There's some, some connection there. And I think that that matters to them in whatever their vocational goals are. Whether they wanna be a professor or work in nonprofits , um, be an activist, be, you know, a community organizer, whether they wanna go into tra more traditional parish ministry or go into , uh, communications or work on ethics in politics or in , uh, or environmental ethics. I think there , I think of it all as ministry. I mean, it's all, I , I think there's good news emanating from every one of our students and I'm so excited to see them go out into the world , um, and, and work to transform the world in, in beautiful ways. And I think that churches and denominations are having to expand their understanding of ministry as well. And our , and what ministry means in the world is transforming cuz we know the, the old traditional ways are not resonating with as many people as they used to. And so we need to respond to that and figure out what, what is resonating and, and what is the, you know, for me, what is the gospel for this time and place?
Speaker 2:I got that same feeling when I was at Vanderbilt is that they never really focused much, I mean, a cong , they did. Sometimes you could take a class that was very congregationally focused or like, or practical in a way like preaching or, or things like that. But, but I never felt that that narrowness of what church is, and I think that's what I really appreciated about it, is that they were there to expand it, to be a, to kind of be an instigator in challenging what church is just as a institution. Like that was kind of like, one of the reasons why I also went to divinity school is that it was a space that questioned a lot of , and seminaries do this sometimes, but I think it really was a space to say how do we break away from the necessary traditional church mentality and what does that mean for us as leaders? But it also really empowered us to find our gifts. And that's what I really, cuz I went to doin school having no clue. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> absolutely no idea what I wanted to do. I just knew that for some reason I was kind of called to go and, and I really think one of the reasons why it was, is just to discover like the gifts that I had and I never, you know, I never was one to want to go into a congregation. And I think for a long time I was like, kind of felt shame about that cuz I was like, yeah, this is not for me. But in that space I didn't feel that shame because they were like, no, you're here to figure out kind of who you are and your gifts and we're kind of here to help you do that. And that's kind of what the kind of the posture that I've seen a lot of institutions like divinity schools take is that they, they have a more freedom to to do that in a way I think. And I think that's why I kind of went is cuz like you, I had no idea. Absolutely not a clue. And then people ask you then why'd you go <laugh>? And I was like, well, good question. And I couldn't tell you why. I was like, you just , I just attested to the spirit that I was like, oh, I've had this feeling that I need to be a part of this. And it was never something for the goal. Yeah. Like it was never like, because of the end goal of it. Like I didn't go to get m diviv , it was like the journey of it all that I think, you know, was my thing cuz I had no clue what I was gonna do afterwards. But How would you, I've been thinking about this because things have changed a lot in the church and in education, especially theological education and, and I wonder what are ways in which you're seeing that change happen and like how are you seeing that change at Yale? Like what are the classes that are there? Like what kind of things are students really interested in now and the kind of things that are happening? Because it's always interesting to see, cuz even when I was in and I graduated in 2019, Vanderbilt has changed a lot in what they're doing and like the student makeup and like the things that they're putting out there, which I think are very creative and awesome. So I would love to know like, yeah, what's happening at Yale because we all know Yale is like the trend setter <laugh> in this, in this like arena. I think ,
Speaker 3:Um, I think one of the most exciting things, so I graduated from Yale Divinity School in 2008 and just came back on staff. So it's, so I've, I've noticed a , a good amount of change and I, one of the most exciting things is the , the fact that the faculty is way more diverse than when I was here. There are , uh, a lot more faculty of color. There's a lot more , um, opportunities to study, especially , um, our students who come from are going into black church traditions. Um, we have a whole , um, certificate program in black church studies. And , um, many of our , our faculty are teaching courses that are , uh, grounded in black church tradition. And, and our worship also reflects that. And that , that was not very much the case when I was a student here. So that is one of the most exciting things that I, I have found here. Um, you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm Asian American and my, and we have, you know, faculty and staff who are Asian American, which was not okay , <laugh> the case when I , we we, you know, there's still work to do, but it is different than when I was here. And I think that's a , that's been such a positive change and something I'm really proud to come back to and work, work in that space. So that, yeah, that's one of , I don't know if that's the kinds of changes that you're referring to Lee , but for me that's been a very market change. That's been welcome.
Speaker 1:Something else that I've been wondering about, and Lee you can really help with this, is that when someone chooses to go to say divinity school versus seminary, particularly in the Presbyterian context, let's say someone does feel that call to go into congregational parish ministry. There are some things that you will have to do if you go to divinity school versus seminary in order to become an ordained minister. Is that correct? There's some, for lack of a better word, I call them hoops to jump through. Some people call them tests to take. But can you just briefly tell us about that? Because I think as someone, if someone is considering a call and thinking about all the different options of the way that their path could unfold, that might be something that , uh, folks might wanna know about.
Speaker 2:It's nothing like the Methodist had to do <laugh>, cuz I'm sure you had to do a lot. Did you have to do a lot as a Methodist pastor ? I
Speaker 3:Always felt like the Presbyterians were like <laugh> . I mean , to do the most <laugh> ,
Speaker 2:We always thought <laugh> , we always thought the Methodist had to take more classes than we did, which I think y'all did have to take they technically more classes than we did, but we had to do Greek and Hebrew.
Speaker 3:Yes. That , see that was the thing where I remember I took Greek my first semester and then I called my district superintendent and asked if I still had to take Greek. And he was like, no, you should probably take like Korean or Spanish. I was like, okay , well there's a difference in our denomination <laugh>. Um, but yeah, I, we were, we were talking before, before we went on air that there perhaps you might call it a downside to a , a divinity school or a non a seminary or seminary or theological school. Any experience where it's not focused on your denomination and you're going into parish ministry, you do have to pay a little bit more attention because then nobody's gonna handhold you through , um, making sure you've got all your ordination requirements. Uh, down some of our students , um, you know, they'll miss the A class and they'll have to do it after they graduate or things like that. It's not , uh, too difficult. Um, we sometimes , um, I do wish we had a few more Methodist students and I'm, I am, now that I'm on staff full-time, I'm working hard on it. But it is a smaller cohort of folks who , um, who are working toward Methodist or , or ordination , uh, um, you know, at a divinity school. Whereas if, if these students had gone to a Methodist seminary, everything would just kind of be laid out for them and everybody would be going through the same process and they would be sharing the same information and everything so that it, it is a little harder. Um , but I didn't find it to be , uh, too frustrating in that way. And I, and for me, again, the, just the benefits of being around people from all different denominations, what really outweighed any, any of the downsides. And I think in some ways I've heard students , some Methodist students say like, oh, I've become more Methodists being here because, you know, when you're around people who are doing other things, you have a better sense of who , who you are and what you're , what's unique about your tradition. Like, like, oh, we, we don't all take , uh, Greek and Hebrew <laugh> . So that's a difference, you know? And, and we're required to take a class on evangelism , uh, for Methodist ordination. Um, and isn't that interesting? Like, y'all didn't have to do that , you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> , uh, things, it , it's interesting and like learning about different people's history and you really get a sense of the, the family tree of Christianity and, and our place in it. And um, and, and I feel like I have a particular pride about being a , a Methodist graduate of, of Vin school. Uh , cuz there aren't a lot of us, you know, it's not like every class you got, you know, a lot, a lot of us. So yeah. So, but it , but I think that is an important consideration for folks who are, who are thinking about going to a theological school. Like if what you need is to just be formed in and around people in your denominational tradition, maybe you've had Acumenical experience all your life and you just really, you really wanna learn about being Methodist <laugh> <laugh> , uh, maybe, you know, maybe you're feeling called to to try to go to a , a Methodist seminary, but that, that was not the case for me. <laugh>.
Speaker 2:So Vanderbilt used to be Methodist. And so yes , there's a tradition about there . I mean there was a large amount of Methodist, I mean, not large, but like, it was a good group. And then they were like us Presbyterians, there was like five of us and, and you know, we had to take these, we had to take a few classes that were required of us for ordination exams, but the big ones were, you know, Hebrew and Greek . But in divinity school, you're, you're taking Hebrew and Greek with like PhD students? Yes . <laugh> like , like you're not taking it, you're, you're taking it with like people who are going off and like gonna, I don't know, transcribe like the Dead Sea Scrolls and things like that. Like that's who we took these things with. And it was fascinating because how they approached it in a way that was very academic and very kind of subject. Like just kind of taking it for face value instead of us trying to kind of like delve into the meaning and how is that gonna preach and how are we gonna like theologize these things. It brought a completely different kind of aspect to it, but everybody, everybody kind of was like sympathetic towards us <laugh> . Cause it was like we had to not we had to take a full year of them. So like a year of Greek and a year of Hebrew. And that was kind of the biggest thing that kind of set us apart. But other than that, it was fascinating to kind of see how other traditions, what their requirements were. Cuz it wasn't just Methodists. I mean we had Baptists, we had Lutherans, we had Episcopalians, Anglican, everybody. And we went to everybody's like ordination services and got to experience like, I mean one of our friend close friends in divinity school converted to Judaism, which was, we got to see that process in her journey and, and how that worked. And we went to synagogue with her. And um, and so like all these kind of experience that we all had together and everybody kind of knew like what everybody was doing, which I thought was a gift. Like, cuz I know a lot of people in , in traditions that ha don't have a clue about other traditions and what they do or what they believe. And I think that was important to me cuz I mean, I think it's important to know the difference between a Presbyterian and a Methodist. I did a C P E , I was the only Presbyterian amongst an entire group of Methodists <laugh> . And the only reason why I did it is because they did an online program. It was like the first online one that they did. And it was kind of a test. And I was like, can I, I was like, I am not a Methodist at all, but I, I had to go to a retreat at this Methodist center down at the beach and it was beautiful and I learned all kind of things about being a Methodist that I had no idea. And I would've never done that if it wasn't for like the di Divinity school experience. But it is kind of a , I know for Presbyterians, if you want to go to a divinity school, it does just take a little bit of extra planning and that's about it. And you always find people to help you. I mean we had a Presbyterian advisor and he was, he kind of kept us straight, but it brought a whole different aspect to it. I would say, Simon, you gonna go now?
Speaker 1:<laugh>? I don't know , this has been a pretty inspiring conversation. I appreciate it. And actually I'll, I'll say this, it's very funny. Um, having worked for the P C U S A for most of my professional career so far, you know, lots of people say, oh are you going to seminary or are you going to seminary? I feel like the spirit must have brought us together for this conversation, Vicky specifically because I always told folks, I don't wanna learn Hebrew in Greek. I would rather improve my Spanish and Korean. Like that has been my response every time someone talks about it and then you're like, oh, in my context I got to do that. And I'm like, that's cool. I really like that
Speaker 3:You might be a Methodist.
Speaker 1:Oh boy, don't let my boss know that <laugh> ,
Speaker 2:There's some good there . I mean I had great conversations with the people I was in, the Methodist that I was went to school with and cuz none of us knew the difference in any of it. And I was like, actually there's a big difference <laugh> . I was like, cause everybody's like, oh, everybody's pretty much the same. I was like, no, if you really , uh, not if it's bad or good, but it's just very different. Yeah ,
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. It's cool to see other people's traditions. It's just really cool. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> ,
Speaker 2:They never know, Simon
Speaker 1:Never know. I'll continue thinking about it. You know, there's always more, there's always more discernment about, about the future and and whatnot . So it's a , it's a pretty interesting journey and it's also been very interesting paying attention to a lot of my friends, given my, my age. I just turned 30. So a lot of folks that I know that did go to s Thank you, yeah. That went to seminary. There's particularly Presbyterian Seminary, they're all now in their first calls or they, if they went much closer to when we were in college, they've , they've been in ministry long enough that they're on their second calls as well, depending on how long their first one lasted. And it's been interesting to see the experiences that they've each had and the things that they reflect on, on the things that, like I said, they wish they had learned in their education. And again, you can't learn everything in your, in your graduate level education. Uh, but I think it's exciting to know that there's such variety of offerings for folks to be able to choose as they're navigating their next steps for their career and discerning that call to ministry or other types of ministry. As you've said, Vicki , they're the definition of ministry is ever expanding, which is pretty amazing.
Speaker 2:Vicky , do they have a lot of second career at Yale? Like Mm
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 2:People coming in and
Speaker 3:I think it's gone down actually since I was here as a student. So that's been a, a downward trend. But there are a , a good number of second career students for sure. Yeah. Nice
Speaker 2:There . Mm-hmm . <affirmative> and a lot of us were a lot older cuz we didn't go straight into divinity school and that was an interesting thing to observe <laugh>. And we was like, I never felt old in my life until like I went to divinity school and I was like 27 when I went, well no, I started when I was like 27 and we went <laugh> , like we had 22 year olds and I was like, you just, yeah. It's just a whole gamut and the age range and everything, which was, is fascinating.
Speaker 3:It is really interesting to study those things . I mean you don't really get that very much in college, but to study all of these in really deep topics with people of all ages, you know, the wisdom of folks who are younger and then with the wisdom of folks who have had more life experience, it's, it's kind of cool. Okay . Yeah, it's a , it's quite a diverse environment in a lot of ways and it's , I think , uh, at least for Yale Divinity School students, this is sometimes it , it could be the most diverse environment that you will really be in in your life. I mean , um, because we live such segregated lives from each other and our, our friend circles can be narrow , uh, and it's really rich place to be deep things
Speaker 2:<laugh>. You get to, you get to know people very quick. So, and you get to have hard conversations, which I appreciated. But we have enjoyed this conversation with you so much and it has taken me back to my divinity school days, which was not that long ago, but it, they happened so fast that you just kind of forget everything that you, like all the experiences you did . So I really appreciate this and I didn't know I would, you know, have this much to say about it <laugh> . Cause sometimes I forget, you know, you work in a denominational space for so long and you hear people cause we're one of few that go to a divinity school and then go into denominational work. I don't think that's, I mean I think that is just kind of a trend through all denominations. I think one of my good friends in the church, she went to Duke and you know, there's not many of us that take that route and so it's always good to talk about it cuz it is very different and yeah, to open people's minds about it a little more. Cuz I'm always a proponent, I'm not an apologist, but I'm always a proponent of , uh, the divinity school experience. So we appreciate you being here with us.
Speaker 3:Well thank you so much for having me and it's really fun to reconnect with you, Simon. It's really nice to see you and very nice to meet you, Lee .
Speaker 2:Yeah , it's good to meet you too. Hopefully we'll cross paths again one day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this has been great, Vicky . Thank you so much. And we'll be sure to put a link to Yale Divinity School in the show notes so that folks can check that out. And , um, we hope that this will be helpful for those considering graduate level education, considering ministry or as Lee said, just feeling that call and not sure exactly what you're gonna do, but just seeking, seeking that call out and trying to live into it. So thank you again Vicky , so much for being with us.
Speaker 3:Thank you both.
Speaker 2:Well thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of Fate, a Presby podcast. And thanks to Vicki for being with us and for talking about the Divinity School experience. We wanna remind everyone, we hope you subscribe wherever you gets your podcast and leave us a review. It only takes a little bit, leave us a few words and if you have any questions, send 'em to fake podcast@psusa.org. Check out our website, a matter of fate podcast.com. You'll find our Spanish and Korean podcast there and advocacy watch and our listening guides. So check out the website and again, we'll talk to you next week.