The Connectional Church w/ Jihyun Oh

Special Guest:
Jihyun Oh, Director of Mid Council Ministries & Associate Stated Clerk, Office of the General Assembly (PCUSA)

Guest Question:
People say the PCUSA is a connectional church. But we often hear about ways that those connections are not always as strong we would like them to be. For example, some churches or areas of the country seem to get more attention or support than others. It also sometimes feels like there is a disconnect between the national church and local congregations. How can we be better connected, especially in today’s society?

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Well, hey everybody, and welcome to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, a podcast where we respond to your questions about faith , justice, and church life. Don't forget to send us in your questions at fate podcast@pcsa.org because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith. And I hope all of you are doing really well. I hope you're getting a lot of rest. If you're not, I hope you give yourself permission to rest at some point. I'm sending you positive energy, positive vibes. I'm sending you love, and I'm sending you all the things good to our audience out there because we love you. As you notice, Simon is not here this week. Simon is on a much needed vacation, and we're sending Simon a lot of love. And I'm not gonna be talking for very long, but a lot of things have happened in the world this past week and just this month it's been hot and everybody knows how. I just really don't like to be hot, but I joke a lot of the times about it. But we all know that the climate crisis is just so prevalent now. And so everyone around the world who is experiencing the, the symptoms and the manifestations of the climate crisis right now all over the world, let's just all pray for each other and let's all do something. Let's all get out there and do something. We've had podcasts about this before. You can go search for 'em on our listening guides and all these things. But specifically this week, we wanna send out love and prayers to our siblings in Libya who are suffering. And so many lives are lost because of flooding. We want to send prayers and a lot of solidarity to our, our siblings in Morocco with the devastating earthquake. Thousands were killed , uh, just like in Libya. And so we are just holding a lot of grief right now. We are holding so much death that we have experienced and none and no less to say that covid is still going on, and we are experiencing those things. So I think this week we really want just to kind of be in a prayerful spot, be in a prayerful space for each other, and lift each other up and do what we can. We're gonna be putting in links to the Presbyterian disaster assistance out there to see what they're doing with a lot of response and how you can get involved. But sending prayers out to all who are impacted with disasters right now. And we hope you really do enjoy our special guests for this week. I will warn you though, we are getting a little Presby technical. So if there are some things that you don't understand, if there are some dialogues or some words or some organizational jargon that you don't understand, this conversation is great, no matter if you're Presbyterian or you're not. But we are welcoming Jun o , who is the director of Midco Ministries and Associate Stated Clerk for the Office of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church, U S A. And just for a little plug, our siblings in the Office of the General Assembly also have a podcast called Along the Road, a podcast for P C U S A leaders. And so if you are a leader in the P C U S A, this is a great podcast for all of you to listen to. It gets right into the details and ways that you can learn more about leadership and all those things that happen within our churches, within our presbyteries and with all these things. And that's, that's just a lot of words that talk about how we organize as Presbyterians. But even if you're, you know, not A P C U Ss A leader, this is also a good podcast for you to go to, to get resources about leadership. So we want you to check out along the road, follow, subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, and we really hope you enjoy this conversation.

Speaker 2: 4:04

Well, joining us on this episode of a Matter of Faith, the Presby podcast is a very special guest. Joining us is o the Director of Midco Ministries and Associate stated Clerk for the Office of the General Assembly. Jun , thank you so much for being with us.

Speaker 3: 4:23

Thank you, Simon. It's good to be here.

Speaker 1: 4:26

Yeah, it's good to see you. And we're gonna start off our conversation with a question, and then we'll just as always see where the spirit takes us. So our question reads, people say the P C U Ss a Presbyterian Church, U s A is a connectional church, but we often hear about ways that those connections are not always a strong as we would like them to be. For example, some churches or areas of the country seem to get more attention or support than others. It also sometimes feels like there is a disconnect between the national church and local congregations. How can we be better connected, especially in today's society? Long question, but <laugh> , we'll get there.

Speaker 3: 5:16

Thanks, Lee . So I think that's a really interesting question because this has also been coming up in some of our conversations in the Office of the General Assembly. What does it mean to be a connectional church and how is that sort of similar to the ways that we think about connection more generally and the ways that we think about connection in a particular church way of being in the world? And so I think, you know, it's the question I think is bringing up some really interesting sort of nuances to what that that even means, right? So I'm re I really appreciate the question. One of the things that is sort of interesting that folks talk about these days, right? Is that there is this sort of , um, shift away . You y'all have probably heard this right, of , um, this voluntary association and association is a way of accomplishing one's purposes in life , um, and vocation and all these other things , um, where that actually was the church for a long time. And that's sort of where is where people make connections that then help them sort of continue to establish themselves in life and work and those sorts of things. And that we're now sort of in a age of relationship. Um, and yet sort of the technology is developing , uh, there's a high sort of , um, value on authenticity , um, and relating. And yet we're also experiencing this sort of epidemic of loneliness, <laugh> , uh, right. And so I think it's , um, interesting, especially in sort of that context too, to ask this question. So I'm gonna give sort of an Office of the General Assembly, <laugh> sort of que uh , answer I think first and then , um, see if we sort of go in in a different direction as well. But I think sort of for us as a P C U S A , like we're , as the Presbyterian Church, u s a to be connectional is really about how we , um, see ourselves as a covenant community. Um, I think it's really , uh, about us saying we, there are things that we can't actually do as individual congregations, as individual people within congregations , um, to, to help participate in God's mission and ministry in the world. And so we think that , um, doing that together is better than to do it ourselves. I think it also means that there are some , uh, ways in which we've actually agreed to live with one another as a connectional church. And so that we actually think that , um, accountability is not just something that we do in a particular community itself, but that there are other communities healthy helping us with accountability when we can't do that ourselves. And accountability both in this sort of context of actually saying there's some, maybe some bad behavior that actually needs to be sort of called in and corrected so that the community is restored again, but also when we sort of wanna say, Hey, we can do better than this. Right? And our call is actually to this sort of way of living out the gospel of Jesus Christ in the world. And so both of those functions, I think of , um, calling folks in to correct that behavior as well as calling into more faithfulness together , um, instead of being independent bodies, that feels really important. And so a lot of those pieces of being interdependent in order to be more faithful in life and in ministry , um, I think are sort of the fundamental ways in which we talk about the Connectional church, that we don't make governance decisions on our own. We don't make policy decisions on our own. Um, there are of course, I mean, local sort of expressions that , that folks are doing, but that , um, as a whole denomination, we've said we can have more impact in the world if we can actually make those decisions together and discern the will of Christ together. And so , um, in some big sense, I think that connectional means that, but as you said, I think there are folks who feel like then that sort of support for being connectional and participating as well as helping to receive those resources that to in, in order for folks to be more faithful in their local context. Um, I think that's, that continues to be a challenge , uh, because it , uh, the , the strength of those relationships and the ways in which we think about who's in the denomination even can be some really uneven sometimes. So I I I , I definitely think there's some challenges to even the way that we conceive of how we live as a connectional church. So I think that would be sort of my initial response to that question.

Speaker 2: 9:35

I like that what you said about the calling in, especially in terms of relationship and opportunity, but also for accountability. I think that sometimes when we are thinking about, for lack of a better word, different models or, or structures of institutions, Christian denominations or frankly just any organization, I think a a model that most people think of is sort of hierarchical. There's someone or something on top that makes decisions and then everyone else implements it. And that's, that's not how the Presbyterian church U ss a works because we are connectional and as you said, we're calling in each other to accountability and to opportunity, but there's not someone just standing on top and telling everyone what the policy is or what the, you know, what the faith is. We're inter doing the only interpretation. We have people that are really important, but we are not, say the Catholic church with Right . The Pope who's gonna say, all right , this is, this is what this means, this is how it's gonna be. Yeah . And I think, yeah, and I think that in doing work in ministry, there's, I I'm not gonna say that there's, I would say that there's sort of pros and cons and nuances to all types of ways that denominations can be structured, but I really like how you phrased that, that calling in. I think that's so important.

Speaker 3: 10:59

Yeah. Well, thanks Simon. I think what you're, you're pointing to is that even in this sort of word connectional , there are different ways that different churches, right, bodies in the world have conceived of what it means to be connectional. And so the, you know, the Catholic church, for example, or even the Episcopal church or the Methodist Church, there is a more hierarchical way of living out Connectional church where there are bodies that actually determine, or a single person like the Pope who sometimes then sort of says, this is what orthodoxy means in our setting. And then it is sort of handed down, and then folks actually sort of carry that out. And even worship, right? That like, Catholic churches have worship books that are published from a central location and then handed out, and they follow sort of the mass in , in that way. And as you said, we're, we're not that right. And interestingly, that our power is actually sort of in those middle , um, uh, what I think we used to call middle governing bodies, but our mid councils, right? And the presbyteries, that's really where a lot of the , um, power and authority and the ways in which we sort of receive overtures, for example, to the general assembly, right? For folks saying, this is a really big deal to us and our community. And so we, we want the entire denomination to think about this particular issue and discern what God is calling us to do about it. It's local congregations that actually send that to Presbyteries, and it's the presbyteries who have the power then to actually submit that to the general assembly as an overture for the entire denomination to think about. And so even when we're talking about national church, you know, I think that there are some times a sort of mistaken notion by some folks who actually look at those other denominations like the Catholic church or the Episcopal church and think like, well, the people in the national , uh, the staff of the national agencies are making these decisions opining on these things. And then just trying to like, you know, <laugh> , uh, have us do all these different things when re in reality, it's actually the , um, commissioners, it's the representatives, it's the people who are serving on national committees , um, that are coming from the presbyteries, right? And the churches that belong to those presbyteries that are saying like, Hey, we really care about this issue and we really would love for our denomination as a whole to actually think about this because we, we do want , um, a broader group to actually discern the will of Christ together. And so I think one of the pieces that, you know, I would say in terms of , um, you know, being better connected is to recognize that really what , um, it's sort of the issue of participation is also really important in our denomination as part of that connectional church. And so anybody who's in a congregation who , uh, you know, has says, Hey, we really should be thinking about this, bring that before your session, right? <laugh> , uh, bring that as a sort of a piece to talk about and discern there, and then send that onto your presbytery and say, Hey, we would really love for the denomination as a whole to think about how we're resourcing certain communities that are maybe being under-resourced, or we love for the denomination to give some more thought to how we're actually , um, engaging with particular communities that have actually been under supported, or whose voices are not as prominent or have been silenced for a long time. And, and, and we'd love for the denomination to actually have a strategy around that. I think that would be , uh, you know, an one particular way in which folks might actually , um, increase that connection as well. And that it actually does bubble up from the ground <laugh> in some ways, right? That folks are actually discerning the movement of the spirit and then saying, I think the whole denomination should think about that <laugh> ,

Speaker 1: 14:57

We are getting very Presbyterian, probably more so than a lot of other <laugh> ah , yes . A lot of other episodes. But I do think that it is important as, as Presbyterians or as denominations that may govern in this particular way. This is a good conversation to think about because I do think, I do think our, the model of the P C U S A is a good model in theory, and then there's also always going to be disadvantages, or there's always gonna be a way for people to find ways to take said model Yes . And figure out how to play the game or manipulate said model , you know, to, to have a little bit of power. Like that's always gonna be the case. Mm-hmm . I think no matter what model you're in, that's kind of gonna be how it is. And I, and I do wonder about, and I really love the accountability part, and at the same time, it, there is often sometimes within these types of systems to where, especially in our tradition where we always talk about reforming. And so if anybody doesn't realize, like the Presbyterian church is a reformed tradition, which means we like to question things and we like to be in a space to where we're talking about stuff. And accountability often comes along with that. But , uh, it often is how do we think about this more? That's where all everybody is allowed to kind of bring in their own voice, but it's also within, because it's like that and because people will be people and people will seek some power in that sense. You know, that's where I often see the disconnection in many ways between a national entity and the local congregation. Because if, if our listeners aren't aware, we ordain people, we marry people, and that is all because of a general assembly, people coming together and working together and make that happen. I have benefited from that, and I , and many people have, but a lot of people don't know that mm-hmm . <affirmative> , and sometimes I think the national entity may pass said policy or overture that they automatically think we've done something Yeah. For inclusivity. And that necessarily, many people, especially if they're not Presbyterian, and even if they are, don't know that. So I wonder how we have those questions about the way in which we do something, but also how do we kind of create a culture that is also realistic mm-hmm . And having conversations of our relevancy in the world of our power in the world as a body that is not necessarily as powerful as it used to be. I think sometimes we, we think we're in the sixties and seventies still to where we had more members and had more power. And now if we say something, yeah . Some people are going to see that. Yeah. But in reality, we have in some ways been so interior that we are also becoming more and more irrelevant. Yeah. And because we love this church so much, Simon and I ask this question a lot because we, we see it being a force of good in the world, but also becoming more and more as a game to, to kind of, in some ways gain more power or authority in the system, and that we are set up to be a democratic entity. And so I also wonder about that, like how do we kind of get back to that, to that, that universal like system and culture of Yeah. Calling people in and kind of opening up to more perspective. Yeah. Because we often can get very, very interior. Yeah . Because we like to play the Presbyterian game, as I say.

Speaker 3: 18:57

Yeah. Ashley , the things that you're saying, it's making my brain fire in so many different

Speaker 1: 19:03

Directions,

Speaker 3: 19:04

<laugh> , um, like there's a part of my brain that's like, yeah, this is why the diversity in unity and who we nominate and whose voices are at the table, and how we think about the nominating process, right? For , uh, folks who will go to , uh, presbytery assembly or general assembly, or who's sitting at the decision making tables or who's involved in a committee that's actually planning outreach, and, you know, these different things, like all of those things matter because whose voices we hear , um, and whose voices are absent will turn our eyes in different directions. Um, and, and , um, maybe missed connections that are actually being offered to us by the spirit <laugh> . Right. And be that we're being invited into relationships that we may be missing because those folks are not being invited to the places where those conversations are happening. Um, and you know, I think the reality that you're naming that we have structures and processes and policies and polity that are encouraging us to do this sort of representational nomination and representation on all sorts of , um, dimensions of diversity, right? So that we are getting the perspective of the fullness of the community , um, that is being called to god's, to , to, to the body of Christ. That in practice we don't do that, right? And because either we think that certain people are better leaders than others, or because sometimes we feel like we have to fill that leadership spot. And so whoever's volunteering or , uh, you know, whatever actually tends to sort of be the person who, who , um, gets asked to be, you know, part of the leadership or the committee or whatever. And, and so, you know, I think the question that I sort of , um, have been asking and I think we've been talking about is, you know, how do we think about those conversation partners <laugh> , right? That actually then , uh, enables us to sort of meet the, the, the , um, current reality because folks sometimes have a hard time making longer commitments or really care and are passionate about a particular project or , um, a particular , um, event or something like that. But they may not wanna serve on a long-term sort of leadership board of some kind, right? And there may be advisory people who are invited in for certain pieces, and how do we actually think about those sorts of en engagement of people? And I think sometimes we're, we're not as creative, right? We think that , um, the sort of representational democracy that we have set up means that we have to do it only in that way. Um, but I think there's a lot of flexibility in terms of how we actually engage voices who, how, why we can go with listening to voices. And so I think that's part that's sort of going , um, firing in my brain. The other piece that you're naming though is also this reality that I think is the, the sort of reality for the church going forward. We're never gonna have the power and the impact and the centrality in US society that we did, as you y'all said, in like the fifties and the sixties, right? Um, and that the sort of research that's coming out is continuing to show that the church is not, is continuing to move to the margins of society. And so some of our conversations , um, have been really informed by a , a book on Asian American theology by professors Anne Lee , who used to teach a PR Princeton Seminary. And he's talking, he sort of talks about some of these concepts of , um, liminality that are not just about space and time, but are actually about marginality. And that if we can actually really think about not just the transient sort of liminal space, but actually the margins being , um, having the possibility of being a place where we can look to the center and critique more accurately , uh, the systems and the structures at the center , um, if we can sort of think about the margins as places where some of those structures get stripped away and we can really meet people human to human and have this true communitas , um, experience. And he uses that word in particular because of what that means and , um, the sort of theory of liminality and, and the ways in which then we can sort of imagine new possibilities that may we're not possible at the center . Um, that is there a way for us to embrace the margins and embrace a move away from reliance on roles, titles, right. Structures that sort of helped us define how we related to an one another and become renewed in the ways that we see one another in the world and begin to see new partners in the world and new listening partners <laugh> , who are gonna say some stuff to us that may be really, really uncomfortable <laugh>, but that those, those voices are actually really important to listen to and learn from. And so , um, I think that that's also sort of spinning around in my brain a little bit too, right? That's , um, sometimes we, we have trouble connecting, I think that you're, as you're pointing out because the structures can get in the way, but it's not the structure necessarily of the sort of overall idea of how we are connectional church, but how we're applying those ideas to actually build more barriers than actually opening bridges, right? Opening doors, building bridges , um, pathways that, that hadn't been there before.

Speaker 1: 24:42

Yeah. And it's, and I often wonder also about our, our, our ability to also bridge build , build bridges, ecumenically, because I often think about what it means as the church is finding itself further and further away from like a relevant world

Speaker 3: 25:01

Mm-hmm. <affirmative> ,

Speaker 1: 25:03

How , how are there going to be, I mean, at some point we may be forced to do so, but I feel like prescriptively

Speaker 3: 25:11

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:12

Our siblings who, I mean if you don't know out there, the Presbyterian church is also in full communion with other denominations in our, in our country. And what would that look like to expand that idea of connection to, and that is very exciting to me to think about because collaboration and partnership also helps increase that, that power and that relevancy within the world. So I often think about that too in our system and mm-hmm. <affirmative> , I know some people may be afraid of that because it's giving up some control and it's giving up some form of kind of alliance to your set denomination. But I think we are learning that if we're together and we're partnering more and more, that's where you really do see a lot of things come up and a lot of things happen.

Speaker 3: 26:04

Yeah , Lee , that's a great point. Um, we do have these full communion partners and then others that we are still in partnership with, maybe just not in full communion relationship , but we belong to these , um, groups of ecumenical dialogue partners , um, in the work for a variety of things. And you know, it's interesting because I, you know, I , in my , uh, sort of early , um, stages of ministry , uh, I remember having this conversation with folks who would say, well, you know, I mean, I think we have to sort of like not be very Christian or not be very Presbyterian to be involved in these interfaith and like, ecumenical conversations. And, and I don't think that's really right. That we actually need to be better at knowing who we are, our own sense of identity in order to be in better relationship with one another , right? Because we sort of talk about that even as individuals, right? In relationship with other people that when we don't know who we are and we don't know, like , uh right . Our own sense of values and things like that, we tend to get sort of enmeshed with other people. We <laugh> , right ? Give up a lot of ourselves or ask other people to give up too much of themselves. And it's really the healthiest relationships happen when we act . Everybody involved in the relationship is really clear about who they are, what the commonalities are, and what the differences are. Right? And I think, so when you're talking about like, yeah, we might be giving up some stuff, well, we might, and we might be really clear about why we, we are giving those things up in order to be in relationship, but it could also be that we say, you know what, we all are aligned in this area where we can really work effectively together, but we also find that in these other areas we're not that aligned. And it's okay for us not to partner for everything, right? That we can , uh, partner on some of the justice issues, but maybe not on the ordination standards, right? And who gets to officiate or who gets to sort of lead in communion practices, for example. Or we might say, Hey, we're really good about exchanging ministers, but in terms of some of the justice pieces, we're still a little bit far apart on that and that that's okay, right? Um, and so I think those pieces of like knowing where we are aligned and knowing where the differences are so large that we um, say we might actually be better off going and finding some interfaith partners, or actually better off going and finding some other ecumenical partners that we're not in full communion with because some of those other pieces actually align better in that way that requires us to do a lot of our own work so that we can be better relationship partners there too. Right? And I think the other piece that feels really important is, you know, that while the US churches actually sort of moving to the margins , um, the southern hemisphere churches, right? Quote unquote continue to grow and expand, and they are bringing fresh eyes, you know, and, and obviously there are some pieces around colonialism and how the missionaries sort of , uh, share the gospel and some of those pieces that actually come into play as well in these conversations. But because of the cultural distinctions within these countries and how they are embodying the message of the gospel, they're bringing some fresh eyes and some critique to the way that we're actually living the gospel of Jesus Christ in the US and even the ways that we think about connection and how we actually think about the sharing of resources, for example, right? And that there has been sort of this critique from some of our European or Eastern European partners, right, that sort of date back, you know, more than a decade asking us to think about our own ties to capitalism, for example, and how we think about money and resources and how that actually is tied to value <laugh>, right? And those sorts of things. And, and those things can be really hard to, I think, hear, but some of those values can also then get in the way of us connecting and listening to the people who are actually part of the communion ourselves. And so I love what you're saying about ecumenical partners , um, sort of within the country as well as even more broadly globally, who may actually be saying to us like, some of the things that you think are actually part of being Presbyterian or connectional are in fact actually not <laugh> . Right? Um, and those are just features of your culture that we're asking you to reexamine because we think it's actually getting in the way of relating to God and to one another and to ourselves more faithfully.

Speaker 2: 30:36

So Lee , Lee took our conversation into a more outward looking to more macro and partnership outside, but I, I wanted to just bring it back within the denomination for a moment because I'm, as I think about some previous podcast conversations that we've had, one was with , uh, Dr. Carolyn Chen from University of Southern California Berkeley, talking about how, as you were talking about communitas , the workplace and work environment is replacing the community for folks that church used to bring mm-hmm . <affirmative> in like a very personal sense mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And then also a conversation that we had with , uh, Rick Spillman, who is a commissioned ruling elder in Kendall Presbytery talking about the experience of more rural congregations and presbyteries that have less support where there's maybe only one or two pastors or try say churches with even a full-time pastor. And so as we're thinking about not just the relevance of, of the wider church, but how, how, like how are we supposed to be in relationship together when it's like we want congregations, we want people to be taking action on major justice issues, but then within our own connectional church, there are many congregations just struggling to survive to make sure that they even can afford whatever form of pastoral leadership that they have. And so I'm just wondering what you would say to that within the context of what you've, you've outlined for us about what it means to be connectional.

Speaker 3: 32:16

Yeah , Simon, thanks. There are a number of conversations that sort of continue to happen as we see some of our , um, you know, our denominations sort of get to , uh, what is it like 80% now a hundred members or less, right? And that , I think the figures are that like 85% of our members are actually con concentrated in like 15% of the congregations or something like that. Like those numbers are probably not right. But it's something like that, right? One of the things that continues to strike me often is , um, the sort of word afford how much pastoral leadership can that congregation afford? So that's a striking word for me because I feel like, again, that has some particular assumptions underneath an economic model for how we actually think about the mission and ministry and the witness of a particular con congregation. And so when we're sort of often thinking about pastoral leadership models, folks are really sort of saying, but here's this financial reality that's a given. And so then how do we actually sort of structure leadership within that? And I wonder if really it's the, you know, the question really, you know, ought to be right, that we say what is the, the mission and ministry and the witness in that particular community of this particular congregation, regardless of the size, right? Because I think there are really vital congregations that are , uh, very small in terms of membership, but are actually doing some really, really amazing work in the community size. And to sort of imagine that a pastoral leader will actually come and increase the size of a 40 member congregation that happens to sit in a 400 member town, I think is really unrealistic, right? Because there's not the population to draw from , um, or to even expect that they're gonna get a demographic of people who don't even exist there , um, in that town. But if we're sort of talking more broadly about what is the, the value of that witness in terms of that , um, of really , uh, and flushing the gospel of Jesus Christ and that community , um, and then the sort of value of the connectional system, I think then becomes what can the connectional church do? <laugh>, whether that's the presbytery or the Senate or the surrounding geographic group of , uh, churches that actually says, we think that that witness is so vital that it doesn't matter what you can afford, but it's what we can afford together <laugh> right. To sort of , uh, sustain this witness. So I think that's one piece. The other piece for me, you know, I think is what's really interesting is that we, we sort of continue to talk about pastoral leadership and we sort of talk about commission pastors or commission ruling elders, and then teaching elders really primarily. But again, some of our ecumenicals uh, worldwide ecumenical partners, they actually function with far fewer teaching elders to the number of members in their denomination. But what they're doing is actually living out our reform value of the priesthood of all believers, the leadership of folks who are all called to be disciples and to be sharing in the, the, the work of the church together. And, and I, you know, I think that continues to challenge me when we, when we're having these conversations, because I think the , we are right at a place where the sort of single, you know, even just a single trained ruling elder right? Um, is actually not a reality. And, and the sort of the pastor a C e O model doesn't really work, right? And we're also finding, I think in a lot of our settings that that has , um, that model for a really long time has meant that really great leadership that could be vitalizing the congregation and leading in such powerful ways in the local community and the mission and ministry have really been underutilized because we're not living out this sort of priesthood of all believers. Um, and so in some ways that's also leading to, I think, I think may probably more pastoral burnout and folks who are saying, oh my gosh, like I've been trying to do this work and it's all been sort of assigned to me. And there's sort of this decision making body that's saying, alright , you know, church staff, <laugh> , you know, you're responsible for doing all of this, but instead, you know, that sort of the, the body of Christ that is actually all connected to one another in that community could actually be doing a lot more ministry together if everybody's involved in it too. And so, I I , I think about some of the ways in which, like our theology says one thing, but then our practice is another thing, again, because of some of those cultural assumptions that we carry. And then also the ways in which right part of those cultural assumptions are not just about leadership, but about sort of economics and how that actually works out. And I wonder, you know, if there's , um, if that's actually keeping us right from feeling like we're connected and resourcing one another more effectively as well. The other piece I think, and you sort of mentioned this too, like in terms of like, you know, decisions that get made at the assembly and that don't necessarily sort of get a applied to right. Applied in the local context. When I was a first time commissioner , uh, from my presbytery to general assembly, I remember getting back and being sort of disappointed that the main things that we focused on were the super controversial or the big items. And we spent a ton of time talking about that. But that there were like 250 other items of business that were not things that were particularly controversial, but were important things that we could share together. And that it did. And that within those general assembly actions were things that were encouraging congregations to , uh, study a confession that we just adopted, or congregations just think about how they would do this particular work in their local community, you know, and, and those sorts of things that, like we didn't actually get talked about, didn't get talked about in our context. And so it sort of , um, lived in the general assembly national church sphere and the local congregation just sort of heard whatever was coming out of the news, right? And , um, and was being highlighted. And so, like the second time that, that I went to assembly, we sort of organized a group of commissioners who had gone and we said, well, can we just choose one thing out of each of our committees that we think a local congregation could enact and live out? And could we just list that on a little, like bookmark and say, Hey, <laugh>, here are nine different ideas or 10 different ideas coming out of a different committee each. You're not gonna care about every single thing as a congregation, but something's gonna matter to the immediate community that you are a part of. And can, can you just choose one <laugh> right now? I don't know what the impact of that was. It may be that nobody really did anything with it anyway, but I was just, you know, I think that just also reminds me, right, that it's also how we communicate and that there can be like these news things that go out all the time. Um, but how are folks actually bringing the things that are being talked about the , the fullness of the things that are being talked about and then encouraging congregations to actually live out some of these decisions that we've made together.

Speaker 1: 40:12

Yeah. And it, and it creates a, and what you were saying about the affordability and what it means to be connectional in a way where say the, the presbyteries or the, or the other churches in the town or working together, that takes being in relationship. And to me, that means you are actually getting to know the context in which you're in. Yeah. Because we have all the time churches wanting to do stuff and they never asked anybody if that's what the con the community needed and never asked anything about. Like, they just kind of make it up off the fly. And in many ways, it's very colonial of us to come in and say, this is what you do need without listening even do it to our churches, <laugh> . And I think, I think that model in a way is very exciting to me because we've had many conversations with people on this podcast that do feel left out that do not feel listened to the people that we speak to about the most, those on the margins, specifically our Native American siblings and their churches.

Speaker 3: 41:20

Yeah .

Speaker 1: 41:21

I think it really does push us in a way to actually listen and to be in relationship and to say, and how do we spread out those financial resources in a way that is based on not numbers, not membership numbers, and all these things that we get so like we get so academic about and so like, so obsessed with mm-hmm. <affirmative> that to me that, that, that is something that excites me because I do think people have gotten lost in the system because we have leaned on, like you were saying, a very capitalistic way of measuring success or measuring our impact in said church. And that that's very exciting to think about how do we, and then how do we create that culture of connection to where this church down the street is in partnership with this other church and nobody is , nobody's ego is messed with. Mm-hmm . Well, that's a whole nother conversation <laugh>, that I think, I think also inhibits us to be in a relationship with, because we do in many ways ha there is in many ways we do the mental gymnastics to have ownership over said church. I think it's, I think it can be a both and thing. Like I think a lot of things are expected of our ministers and our staffs and all these things in the church, but on the other side of it too, there is somewhat of an entitlement or an ownership that, as you were talking about how we have set up what a teaching elder is like, there is some higher level than what a ruling elder may be in the minds of people out there. And then like lay leadership, we even call it lay leadership in the church, which I think is very problematic. Mm-hmm . Like all these things are kind of set up to make, to make ego, ego and to make that a very big barrier for us to look at our siblings doing valuable work and saying, alright , we have a little more, let's see how we can, we can all benefit from this in a way that is beneficial to the entirety of the church body. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And , and that to me is a exciting thing to talk about. And it's, but it's also harder <laugh> , it's like a harder thing to, to do. And I think that might be why we don't do it as much. Yeah. We kind of lean into this because being in relationship is very, very hard. And we say it all the time, and yet I'm always like, but it's really, really hard and that is why it's, we don't do it as well as we may need to. So Yeah . But it's very exciting to think about it in that way. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 44:20

Um , well Lee , the , the piece that you're mentioning too, like right about like when we're in relationship, we can't assume what other people need that we have to really listen. Right? <laugh> , um, and that piece , um, you know, we've been doing , um, in the office of the general assembly , um, you know, we're into our like second year of work on the intercultural development inventory work. Um, in that continuum , uh, that sort of transitional space is called minimization. And one of the things that happens there, we're so focused on our commonalities, and then we sort of assume that people are like us. And so I think one of the ways in which that sort of hap then sort of , um, you know, gets embodied is we assume that the plans that we have , uh, and that we have created and the services we provide, and those sorts of things are applicable to everybody because we have so much in common with one another. And the interesting piece there is that for us to move out of that sort of place of minimizing the differences to really appreciating differences and being able to adapt, is that we have to do our own work. So I think it sort of goes back to like, we have to do our own identity work. We have to do our own culture work to figure out what assumptions we're actually making about ourselves and about other people so that we can actually be in more genuine relationships , uh, with one another where we can hear both the commonalities and the distinctiveness to hear the different things that people need that we may assume they don't need or the the things that we think they need that they actually don't need. Right. <laugh> or whatever that is. And, and engage in some really hard listening. And, you know, and so when I'm sort of thinking about that sort of i d i piece and the , and the liminality that Ian Lee is talking about in terms of marginal spaces , um, that requires us to sort of step out of our own places of privilege, right? Or places of assumptions of places where structures have sort of determined how we are in order to hear, to be in relationship, to check out assumptions question. And so, you know, when you're, when you're talking about even the language, right? And how we actually call leaders, right? These are leaders who may not have a particular title, but they're leaders nonetheless, right? <laugh>. Um, but by putting an adjective in front, is there a way that we sort of de devalue that? And so the, the structures that I think the , at the margins that we can question are not just the formal structures, but sort of structures within our own mind and our language, right? That sort of enables us to sort of rethink how we actually conceive of the world. And it feels like there's such a , such a heady discussion, but I think those things matter, right? Because it helps draw a map in the world , you know, of , of the world in our minds. And then it determines how we relate to one another and it determines what we think , uh, which rules are equitable and not, which rules are just, or not <laugh> , which rules actually right, or which processes which structures need to be questioned or not. It , it all builds that sort of thought world for us. And so I think, you know, in some ways, right, I think going back to that original question, how can we be better connected? Even though it seems a little bit counterintuitive, it may be for us to do our own work <laugh> to, to to do some examination, to do some deep question sort of wondering and cur curious work right? Around who are we really, what are our values? What are, what is our culture? What are the assumptions that we're making? And what ways in which are we then carrying those assumptions out onto other communities who are really different from us, even though we may have some commonalities because we are , uh, Christian siblings in the Presbyterian church, u s a together.

Speaker 1: 48:12

Yeah. How are we connected to ourselves? And I really love what you said about like, we need to know who we are. 'cause sometimes and all transparency, everybody knows I'm a just a very honest person, <laugh>, sometimes it feels we don't know that. And it does feel like we are in somewhat of an identity crisis of our own selves. And and I do think that can manifest in ways that we try to be something we're not. And it often can come off as either cheesy or either really inauthentic. And, you know, as someone who is constantly trying to figure out who I am, it is a , it is a process that we will always have that we always will be figuring out who we are. But I think it's often that we can be honest about that. 'cause sometimes I think we put it out there like, oh, we know it, we know who we are as this entity and we really don't. And I think having that honesty and having it out there to say, we are figuring out who we are as the Presbyterian church, u s a , but claiming that as a, as a goal that we may never fully reach. It's just like the kingdom of God. Yes. Like we will, we will continue that work. But I think it, I think we are having in some ways an identity crisis. And, and it does show, people can see that. And I think we get , we don't give enough people credit to know when an entity or a person or someone just as a little lost. And I think that we all can be lost <laugh> , whether organizationally or individually, like, but we have theology around that too. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And I think that that is also important for me in like this conversation that is what's ahead for this church and people out there. If you don't know, there is lots of talk about merger and things like that within entities, and we won't get into all the ins and outs or the details, but it is a time of us really trying to figure out who we are. And I hope that we do that intentionally during this time and together in a way that is relational that will be hard. But at the end of the day, it's not a competition or it's not a, a way of somebody coming out on top of the other. But I do think we are lost having this conversation and hopefully people hearing it can help in that and, and say that's okay, but this is where we are <laugh> in this time, you know? Yeah . Yeah.

Speaker 3: 51:09

Mean we've experienced a ton of changes, right? Even to this communion that is the Presbyterian church, u s a , there have been a lot of our siblings who left because of ordination standards. There are some of our siblings who are leaving because of some of our social justice positions around race in particular, right? Um , and, and we continue to also see massive transitions in society as well. Um, and we're trying to figure out not just sort of what happens when generational sort of transfer of wealth is happening, but when generational transfer of leadership is happening. And I, I think we don't know that yet, right? So I I think it's , um, it's uh , you know, maybe lost but also maybe seeking time, right? And it's a real opportunity for us to seek , um, very deeply and get curious about ourselves and who we are now , uh, that we were not, you know, 10 to 15 years ago and who we are being called to become. And in some ways there is a real opportunity, as you said, and so amen <laugh> that we will hopefully do this in a really intentional and authentic way. Um, thank you, Lee .

Speaker 2: 52:12

Well, we're really grateful to you for being on the podcast with us today to have this conversation. And we also wanted to give you a moment to shout out and highlight , uh, the podcast that's done by our colleagues in the Office of the General Assembly along the road, which is a podcast for more like local , uh, local congregational leaders as well as midco leaders. So yeah, let us tell us a little bit more about along the road.

Speaker 3: 52:38

Yes , Simon. Thanks. So yeah, along the Road is a podcast that was started by , um, some folks in the Office of the General Assembly. Um, as we were sort of thinking about , um, I think some of these common things that we're talking about today, right? How, how can we be , um, uh, connectional , uh, church together within the Presbyterian Church, u s a, where more leaders feel empowered and equipped to live out their , uh, calling as leaders within the church and leaders of all kinds, whether they have formal titles or not, and how are they understanding then their responsibilities? How are they tending to their spiritual life and , um, so that they can be spiritual leaders within the church. Um, and then also some of these pieces that are about our , um, some of our covenantal agreements about how we live one another, which is expressed in our polity. And so we sort of take , um, the longer format versions , uh, that tend to be somewhere between 30 to 40 minutes long , uh, sometimes a little bit longer. Um, they focus on some of those polity pieces , uh, a you know, part of a book of order or a directory for worship or a book of confession piece that then we do a little bit of a deeper dive and show the spaciousness and the roominess within the , within those spaces for us to be contextual and to be faithful to what , um, God is calling us to do in those spaces. And then we , um, the shorter , um, versions, which are the, the , the shorter episodes, which are about 10 to 20 minutes long , um, those are really attending to spiritual practices so that leaders are also attending to their own souls. Um, and it's really meant to sort of go hand in hand there. Um, so we took a little bit of a , a breather in , um, in the summer in order to do some planning for the second season, but we'll launch in mid-September. Um, and so we're really excited about the upcoming season as well.

Speaker 1: 54:33

Awesome. And we will of course have a link, and I am assuming we, they could , people can subscribe wherever they get their podcasts, just like this one. Yes. And yes, even, even if you're not, and this is to our listeners, which many of you may not be, even if you're not Presbyterian, but if you are a leader, I have listened to some of these and they are translatable, and I think it really is helpful just to like, hear about other denominational experiences to glean from your own experience no matter what tradition you are in or no matter what leadership you're in. But yeah, go listen to along the road. We'll send , we'll put a link out there for everybody to get to , but subscribe to it wherever you get your podcast. And hun , thank you so much for being with us

Speaker 3: 55:22

Today. Thank you. So good to be with you.

Speaker 1: 55:28

Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of eight . We want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and lead the podcast a review and give us five stars. We love that. If you have any questions for us, send them to Faith podcast@pcusa.org and check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.