Pastoral Burnout w/ James Fenimore & Carol Howard

Call your Representatives and Demand a Ceasefire in Gaza.

Special Guests: (4:37)
James Fenimore & Carol Howard, Authors of Wounded Pastors: Navigating Burnout, Finding Healing, and Discerning the Future of Your Ministry

Guest Question:
A pastor's job is very tough. How do we help support them to find strength and resilience to avoid burnout?

Wounded Pastors: Navigating Burnout, Finding Healing, and Discerning the Future of Your Ministry

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Well, hello everyone, and welcome to a Matter of Faith , a Presby podcast. A podcast where we respond to your questions about fate , justice, and church life. Don't forget to send us in your questions because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith. And I hope everyone is doing well this week. As you notice, it's just me for the week. Simon is on a short vacation getting some rest. And Simon, we love you and we miss you. And Simon will be back next week. But for right now, you have me and I really do hope everyone is getting geared up for the holiday season. It's coming up fast, y'all, and I'm very excited. I love this time of year, and I just want everyone to just be reminded of some things that are going on in the world. Of course, the, just the violence and the horrendous stuff happening in the Gaza and the things happening in Israel. And I just really hope people are starting to get educated and to learn about the ins and outs of this conflict and this violence, and to just understand what is going on. And we are in solidarity with our Palestinian siblings who are being bombarded with so much, so much by violence. And of course, always, always, always, this is no excuse to, to just throw out and to act on any antisemitic actions or any Islamophobic actions. And so, of course, condemning all those things, it's just such a nuanced conflict that so many things are happening right now. But I hope that we can continue to speak out against this, especially the church. 'cause in all honesty, we've been pretty silent. And so calling for a ceasefire, call your representatives, make sure they know that this needs to happen and that the civilians in Gaza need humanitarian assistance. And so call your representatives, continue to speak to your people and your faith communities about this. Learn, be educated, all those things when it comes to this conflict. And I just think we need to do that. So, and in other news, just again, a lot of things are going on in our world, and it just seems very heavy these days. And so one of the things that I hope that we can think about during this holiday season is to also find some joy and where your joy lies in your life and what that means for you. In doing that, the holiday season can be a very, very hard time. And I think that finding what brings us joy during this time and acting on that is very, very important. And so I hope everyone out there is taking care of themselves, doing what they need to do and experiencing some joy because things can be rough. And speaking of being rough, we have some amazing, amazing guests this week. We are welcoming James Fenamore and Carol Howard , who are the authors of Wounded Pastors, navigating burnout, finding healing, and discerning the future of your ministry. And we talked to James and Carol about pastoral burnout, how to avoid it, and where to cultivate strength and resilience in what can be a very, very hard profession and vocation. And that is being a leader in faith communities. And this conversation has been had multiple times when we talked earlier on the podcast in a couple of episodes about pastoral experiences where people have left the ministry and people have had a array of different experiences. But this is an important conversation, especially when it comes to holidays where many faith leaders are very, very tired afterwards. So we really hope you enjoy our conversation with James and Carol. Well, joining us on the podcast today are two very special guests. We haven't had two people in a while, but we have James Fennimore and Carol Howard , the authors of Wounded Pastors, navigating burnout, finding healing, and discerning the Future of Your Ministry. This is a, a , a hot topic these days in the church world, and we are really glad that y'all are joining us on the podcast this week.

Speaker 2: 5:04

It's great to be here. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah,

Speaker 3: 5:08

We're really grateful to have you with us to think about the ways that we support our pastors as well as ways that pastors can find methods to support themselves. And so our question, to begin our conversation is, a pastor's job is very tough. How do we help support them to find strength and resilience, to avoid burnout? What would you all say to that, given you have a a wonderful book coming out on the topic, <laugh>,

Speaker 2: 5:39

You're right. It is, it is tough. And it, I think it's tough in this particular time right now, we have a particular time in history where we have seen decline for decades, and we also have a particular time when we have , uh, you know, we had growth and then there's been decline. So oftentimes , um, churches have been closing churches that have been historically open for hundreds of years and, and now, you know, are looking at closing their doors. So it's scary. Like it's really scary. It's scary for pastors, it's scary for congregations, and all of that makes the anxiety go up. And it also , um, makes the anxiety , um, rise for other reasons too. We've just come out of a global pandemic, and I know , um, I just got a text from somebody who's in the doctor's office and she said, everybody here is wearing masks again. And like, I just felt my like, chest tighten thinking, oh no, not again. We can't do it again, <laugh> . So, so there is this anxiety from the pandemic, the anxiety from , uh, you know, this historic decline. Um, and pastors are in the midst of it. And , um, one of the things we know about burnout is like, if, if you're facing burnout, one of the great things to do is to celebrate when you have success or when you have gotten through something really difficult and , um, you know, and , and you celebrate and you pat yourself on the back and you, you know , uh, do whatever you do to celebrate that you've made it through or you've, you've succeeded. But with a pastor, oftentimes we're never quite able to do that. I mean, the pastoral care is kind of never ending. You end your work day before you ever end your work. You always think about the things that you should have done, could have done. There's, it's endless. You always are being told, you know, there are things that, a long list of things that , um, that should have happened. And not only that, you're being compared to this like amazing nostalgic time 20 years ago when there were no problems in the church and every pew was packed with families and everybody had, you know, shiny shoes and great teeth and, you know, there were no difficulties at all. And so you can't possibly work , uh, against that incredible yearning for nostalgia. Like your reality is always gonna be dimm next to that. So for all of these reasons, at the end of the day, we can't celebrate our successes or we don't celebrate our successes because we know there's always more we should have done. There's, it was always better in the past, it was always, you know, there is, there are these national kind of movements of decline and, and , um, which have heightened during the pandemic. So it's difficult to be able to ever say, oh yeah, I finished the day and it was good.

Speaker 4: 9:40

You know, I might add in to that. Um, I , it might sound simplistic, but to stop blaming the pastor , um, that's one thing, one real tangible thing that we can do to , um, to try to lessen the stress. What I've seen over the years has been, as the churches have been declining, that what has what has happened at is, first of all, I think it really started with the churches , the , the, the laity themselves. And , and Carol was , was alluding to that, going back to the nostalgia of the days or whatever. And so there was a blame and there was this constant, you're not doing enough. You're not doing enough to bring in the people. You're not doing enough to fill these pews . You're not doing enough pastoral care. You're not doing enough, doing enough. What I, what I witnessed about 10 or 12 years ago when I was, was a superintendent in the Methodist church was there became a , a shift, and I don't know if it was national or just regional in the area that I was in, but what started to shift was the leadership in the church, the bishop, the denominations we're starting to blame the pastors and starting to say they don't, they're not equipped enough. They need to be trained more. They need to go through this. There's ineffective pastors who are out there, which sure, there , there probably is, but it was really kind of this blanket sense that they're the problem, the pastors are the problem. If they were better pastors, we wouldn't have this issue. So when, at the end of the day the pastor's sitting there being blamed by this , the , the judicatory officials being blamed by the people who are sitting the pews, how do you, how do you deal with that without really burning out and, and and having to break them .

Speaker 1: 11:30

Yeah. And there's also, in some ways I've experienced and some other people who are in ministry and our pastors have experienced this kind of churches seem to think that they may have ownership over said person and what that means in their lives. And a pastor is solely there for that congregation. And that is the only existence that that pastor has when we are human beings and we have lives and we have people we want, we have friends well at like all these things. I mean, pastoring is also very isolating, so it is also hard to have friends. But at the same time, I do think, would y'all, would y'all also agree that there is some sort of ownership, that there's a culture in the church that because this is our pastor, we have control over this person, and for some reason that's just kind of stuck and people get into your business <laugh>, and it, it is, the boundaries, I would say are very blurred in the church world in general, but would y'all agree with that kind of observation that there's ownership there in a church, but also a lot of boundaries are blurred, which can also lead to burnout? I think

Speaker 4: 12:54

It is , that is a , a serious issue is that everyone thinks that they're your boss and that , um, and that they're willing to , to say that I think it's, it's , um, there's slight nuances between the different denominational systems. Um, when , um, for instance, for myself, United Methodist, there's um , there's, there's sort of like a , um, there's a bit of a gap between this ownership because there is the, the, the bishop and the superintendents are the ones who do the appointments as opposed to a call system. So I think for Presbyterians, you know, there there is, it's more of a call system. And so there, there is almost a sense that everyone does have a vote on whether this person stays and, and how much and, and all the time. So, you know , for myself, I always thought that there was a benefit in a system that at least gave some sense that even though the people who were sitting in the pews thought they were my boss , um, ultimately I knew that it wasn't, unless the bishop said that I was moving, that I didn't have have to move. But I don't, I don't know what it , I mean, Carol, what is it like to, to feel like the whole congregation has a vote on it?

Speaker 2: 14:07

I mean, it doesn't feel great all the time. <laugh>, you know, you're so right. I have a friend who , um, was an associate pastor. He came into his office for his first day of work and somebody came in, sat down and said, I own you. I give X amount of money to the church, and that pays your salary and I own you. And there is with that expectation on top of our own sense of , um, you know, wanting to do the best for the church, wanting to save the church in some way, our own savior complexes, thinking that if we just work harder or, or longer, or if we do all the things that we can turn this around , um, I think it puts an incredible strain on pastors and it makes it really, really difficult. And it's hard to create boundaries in a system that doesn't have them. I mean, when you go to , um, the grocery store and you accidentally run into your therapist or something, you know, they don't acknowledge you, but we are all up in people's private lives and they're in ours, and it's , um, it's , so, it just became , it becomes , uh, really permeable those distinctions between our , uh, private lives and our public lives. A a and also we're, we're trying to like build this beloved community together at the best. We're trying to be vulnerable and we're trying to be loving toward each other, but that also puts us in really uncomfortable positions where we may not have this same sort of professional guardrails that , um, many professions have.

Speaker 4: 16:11

I mean, it even extends to the idea that we're hired as, as professionals, as those who have been educated master's level education or more, and we're coming in there with our expertise, but it's sort of almost like, it seems like sometimes it's like we are the doctors and they're the patients and the patients are telling us what the treatment's going to be, and doesn't matter what we say, it's like we know best because in 1960 we had this, you know, thing and this worked and this is what we wanna go back to without any sense of, well, we have expertise, we have training, and we have experience in this. Can, can we have a say in it? And it's always trying in a way, negotiate that. Um, we , we are the congregation, which is really difficult because it is, it is a boundary issue because we are trying to, at the , at the same time as we're trying to build a congregation and do all the work that we're trying to do, at the same time, we have to, in a sense appease a congregation and, and what , uh, so that we don't lose our job.

Speaker 3: 17:22

I really like that metaphor. And because it also raises the sort of classic, the classic phrase that we hear in churches, which is, well, this is the way we've always done it, or this is the way we did it before, so we're gonna keep doing it, like you said, but without taking into consideration the perspective, the expertise of the person that is literally hired to help, not necessarily lead, but help shepherd walk alongside the congregation. And I think that this is all really interesting , um, in the context of the last couple months where an , an article or blog post came out written by a Presbyterian minister who , uh, left their congregation after I think 10 years and wrote this long blog post article reason about why. Um, and it has certainly set a lot of discussion in motion online. Uh, Lee and I have talked about that previously on, on previous podcast episodes. Um, but I think it something that you said, Carol , that is also really interesting about all of this is that a pastor is expected to come in and do so much, and then as you said, James, but often it's like, oh, it's not deemed to be enough. But in the case of what Carol mentioned about always being compared to when the church was in its heyday, the church is not in the heyday the same way. That also means the pastor isn't paid <laugh> as much. And a lot of churches in the Presbyterian context, a lot of pastors are part-time now because congregations can't afford for them to be full-time. And so now it's like this weird catch 22 where a pastor is expected to do the work of a full-time person while being paid the, and only paid for the hours of a part-time person. And they're just caught in this cycle of burnout and not meeting expectations. And so I'm wondering if there can be a conversation with congregations about what those expectations look like, because we can't have the same expectations that we've always had . We've always had Mm-Hmm . In the current situation within our churches and a lot of them .

Speaker 2: 19:34

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I guess, I don't know how many years ago it was, but you know, all of these factors in our economy went up. So we had higher housing prices, we had the cost of education in college go up, we had , um, medical , uh, expenses go up, which we often see in our insurance prices and also in our deductible payments. And, and so all of these things went up massively. And many times we had this, at least in the Presbyterian church, we had a lot of baby boomer and above pastors. So those in generations that were coming up after them were trying to enter the housing market with incredible student loan debt, oftentimes medical debt. And then, you know, the cost of housing was far out , uh, was way, way bigger than , um, what we were getting paid, especially in many of the, the , uh, areas in which Presbyterian churches are located. So we really couldn't afford to live within , um, our areas in the Methodist church. I think this dynamic is a little bit different. It , and correct me if I'm wrong, James, but it, it seems like , um, uh, you know, oftentimes professional people married professional people. And so I would often talk to Methodist pastors who are , I shouldn't say professional, but uh , maybe people at , um, like a certain education level. And , and so they would marry a , a doctor or a professor or you know, someone , um, who had to move for their job. And the Methodist pastor couldn't move in the same way. So , uh, and , and their finances were tied toward the spouse. Um, so, so all of this becomes really, really complicated and it, it also has an impact on the clergy who are coming up because , um, you know, we had so many people in older generations who were in charge who couldn't understand why, you know, these young clergy were complaining about how much it cost . And then we had , uh, you know, then now as people are coming through the pipeline, you know, college students, it's kind of hard to recommend that they become clergy because we know how much education costs and we know how much our churches are paying. And, you know, it's, it's not like high on the recommendation list all the time. So , um, yeah, so there's all of those difficulties that , um, come into play when it comes to , uh, pastors lives. And , um, and I think it's particularly difficult right now with the retiring generation , um, many of whom retired during CID and now, you know , um, younger generations are, are , are trying to, to make a way where there is no way,

Speaker 4: 23:19

When I started ministry 30 years ago, they were always talking about how , um, there is gonna be this wave of clergy who are gonna retire, and there's going to be all of these open churches and there's all all this opportunity as well, but when we need to, we need to get more people into becoming clergy because there's gonna be such a need that's gonna come up. Um, what I experienced over those 30 years was that that didn't come true. There was a wave and has been, continues to be kind of a wave of retirements that have happened, especially after the pandemic. There's even more that can come. But what happened at the same time is that there , the number of full-time churches , um, decreased significantly. Loss of churches either closed or they went to part-time. And a lot of them were, you know, I , I know in my, my own denomination in the area that I was, which is up upper New York , um, that there's a lot of churches that were, you know, had maybe even two pastors that are now , um, served by, they have like three churches combined together that one pastor is serving, where before it was two pastors serving just one of those churches. So, and that's not because of a , of a lack of clergy. That's because of the decline of the churches and the financial ability of all of these churches. Uh , you know, we , we didn't even talk about the, the, the real, one of the real weights that , uh, mainline churches have is the buildings. They're really, really expensive and we're spending more money on the buildings than we're, you know, 'cause we have to keep our building, right? So we end up, you know, where , where, what can we cut? Well, let's cut clergy, cut clergy. Can we get cheaper clergy and not, not providing the kind of , uh, the , those resources.

Speaker 1: 25:13

Yeah. So I, I wonder from both of you kind of moving us a little forward about like how then can, since all these factors are coming at us very quickly, and , and Simon and I work in the church and we're kind of of a different generation and there are many, many factors that impact us, I think differently than, than other generations do. And, and, and it's a lot along with the culture of the church happening in the us I always, you know, when you go to Europe, you kind of see what's coming up. Uh , fortunately for them, they're cathedrals are old and people pay to see them <laugh> . So I think that's sort of the benefits they have. But, but we don't have that benefit. There are a few older ones here, but, but I wonder like, how, how do we begin to kind of take all that in and also realize that we are only human and, and what are the ways in which we can kind of handle these things? When you're talking about healing and navigating what this means and discerning , uh, what do, what do you mean in this time for as we are having this discussion about all these factors that create burnout? So where does the healing begin? Basically,

Speaker 4: 26:39

I think one of the important parts of the healing is to understand what's going on with the church. And so , uh, you know, in the book we, we talk about it is, it is kind of a systems perspective. So we're using , uh, Bowen Family Systems in , in the book throughout it. And so one of the benefits of , um, understanding family systems is to, to see the church as like a giant family system. And so when we start to look at that and we use something like Bowen Family Systems, it's a, it's a theory and in it , um, we can predict, or more importantly, maybe we can understand why, where their reactions are happening and what's happening. And, and it helps us to be able to , um, distance ourselves a little bit from this. Because I think what's where the burnout happens is when we start to, to take it personally and we're ta it's not that there's something wrong with us that we're taking it personally because whether it's it's it's a judicatory official or whether it's, you know, a member of our congregation, they're, they're actually blaming us. They're, they're right there saying this, this is your fault. And so it's kind of hard not to take that personal , um, but when we start to recognize that this is a , this is a systemic response to the potential of death of a congregation and the fear that it's generating and the people that we're serving and the people who have, have been part of that system for maybe all of their lives, then we start to understand that this isn't personal. That we're, we're merely like a lightning rod. And so we're attracting all of that , um, negativity and, and so like a negative rod. We have a negative , uh, lightning rod. We have to kind of , um, ground ourselves in a way to make sure that we're not , um, taking it all in and just, it's not destroying us that we're allowing it in a sense to just pass through us. Um, and so that's, I think one of the major steps that we're talking about in this book is how do you, how do you understand that and how do you know that, oh, that's, that's what's going on here. This isn't about the fact that , um, that what I preached is, is something that's really horrible. It's just, it, it struck a nerve and there's, there's connections back to the system. And the reason why this is , this is happening.

Speaker 2: 29:08

Yeah, I mean, I always have to remind myself that pastor 20 years ago was not that much more awesome than I am. It's okay. <laugh>. I just have to tell myself that pretty often. But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, as we think about healing, you know, realizing that we are part of this system that's pretty anxious and we understand what happens in, in anxious congregations, and we know that oftentimes, you know, there might be people who triangulate and there might be people who cut off and there might be people who , um, get really angry. And we also have to realize our own reactions within that. You know, are we somebody who , um, wants to fight or are we somebody who wants to just flee , um, you know, somebody who just wants to leave every time there's an issue? Uh, and so we have to like navigate our own reactions, navigate what's happening within the church and , uh, you know, set our boundaries and all of that, figure out what's important , um, to us. You know, I know we used to talk about self-care and um, and as pastors, and I think, you know, we would sometimes talk about take your day off, and that was it, <laugh>. But, but there's so much more now, you know, I mean, there's so much , um, that we need to navigate when it comes to boundaries. Part of the boundary is just realizing , um, you know, that , uh, utter pull for nostalgia and realizing that , um, you are a good and faithful and um, uh, pastor in the midst of , uh, this nostalgic pull . And , um, and the fact that you are not him, you're not that person that came before you or you are not her. Uh, that is, that's sort of differentiating yourself and understanding your worth and your value outside of that is just kind of an important boundary that we need to, to learn. Um, so just navigating our sense of self in all of this systemic chaos that's surrounding us at the moment and being able to celebrate the amazing things that we're doing, you know , um, the amazing , uh, you know, exciting , um, uh, projects that we get to do. And, and , um, every time we have a worship service and the fact that we're creating music and we're creating art , um, and we're like doing a sermon every week, that's, that's amazing. Like comedians, they have a 15 minute shtick that they do once a year. One of my friends David Hanson used to always remind me of that. And we have to do something every week <laugh>, and we're able to do that. So there is so much that we're doing as pastors. That's fantastic. Um, and so learning to celebrate , uh, all of that is also part of , um, the healing. The other thing that we keep coming back to over and over again in the book is that sense of isolation that you mentioned. Lee is so, so strong with pastors and , um, and we just really have to work against it. Um, one of the difficulties about that blog post that I saw was there was so much blame that was going on, and I don't know how you guys reacted, but, but I was like, you know, this guy's kind of hurting. Why are we beating him up? <laugh>? And so, and, and of course, you know, there's issues of privilege and all of that, but, but when your colleagues like really hurting, you know, it's, it's kind of good to not kick him <laugh> . So, so I think this sense of like, as clergy come together and realize the particular difficulties that we are going through and, and the heartache that we're going through, I think it's just really good to, to support one another and , um, to make sure that we have spaces where we can cry and laugh and, and do all of the things that we need to do to get through this very difficult time.

Speaker 3: 34:38

Yeah, we've talked on the podcast before about how it's so hard to have friends as a pastor because your congregants, you can get along with them. You can like them, they can like you, but you really can't be friends with them in the same way that you can be with a friend who you have a relationship with that is completely separate from your work. Um, and these people, your congregants are folks that you'll see all over your community. And again, that encourages a blurring of, of boundaries at times. I also remember a conversation we had with , um, a friend of , a friend of mine , uh, Timothy Watting . This was a year after he had started his first call, and we did a sort of retrospective, looking back one year later, what are the things you've learned? And I said, so have you had trouble with, you know, congregants trying to be your friends? And that being something that's hard to navigate? And he said, no, because my congregation is all older, retired people, and they treat me like I'm their grandson. So now it's a different type of, of expectation and sort of a different type of issue about, I think, sort of respect and like seeing him as a person in leadership, not just as sort of on their grandson's level, if that makes sense. Um, so it just seems to, it seems to morph in different ways, but as you said, James, this is all in some ways a part of this, this system that's already been created in a culture within each congregation or each denomination. And I really appreciated the guidance that you have to let it pass through you and not take it personally and not take it on. Because if you hold onto it, you will believe that you're not enough all the time. And that's really hard and that's hard in any profession, but particularly in one that is so faith driven as well as people driven as being a pastor.

Speaker 1: 36:31

Well, and that's like the importance of, you know, and, and this is also a systemic thing too that we always address about the church , is that, you know, the encouragement of mental, of mental health and the encouragement of how we kind of build that into the system of, you know, where I'm from in South Carolina of 700 people town, the church is the pastor is one of the first people you're gonna go to. And many of us are not equipped with things that are then needed. And so, or the things that are placed on us in certain, in certain places, people will dump things on you that are a lot to handle and could trigger you. And so the importance of mental health within the system and how we provide that, I've always had a problem with, you know, why isn't it provided for people who are dealing with things in their communities and, and provided and it being accessible. So also the importance of like having the conversation about mental health and therapy. I am, if it wasn't for IT therapy, I don't know where I would be. I think, I think it's one of the most important things I've done in my life. And so I wonder about that conversation too, about the system in which we're in, where that might not have been something that was thought of <laugh> or, or, or needed. Um, but there are many ministers that I know would benefit from a system that builds in the mental health of said pastors, if we're gonna take care of our ministers, as we always say we do. And I don't know about that.

Speaker 4: 38:18

Yeah. You know, I do know that there are some judicatory that provide basically a , a therapist for the clergy and someone who is a trained mental health professional. Um, recognizing that, which I think is , is really important. But I think, think many , um, many denominational structures just say, well, we provide health insurance. And you know, and, and I , I do, you know, I have a lot of clients who are , um, I , by the way, I am a , a licensed , um, marriage and family therapist. That's where my transition, when I left the, the ministry, that's what I went into. And I have a lot of clients who are clergy. And , um, it's really helpful to have , um, to have a therapist that understands the issues of clergy because we are a unique group of people. And , um, we have some unique , um, trials that , that we go through. And I think that it is, is helpful. But I , um, and I did, I did see a therapist when I was a pastor going through a lot of things that I was going through. And it was, it was very helpful. And I also went to someone who was previously a pastor. Um, it, it is a helpful process and you don't have to see somebody who's a former pastor, but just the idea of being able to have a space to be able to unpack some of that is, is very helpful. Um, and I think that in some respects, I think that some clergy feel like it's, it , it's, it seems like a weakness that there's supposed to be the one that holds it all together, and why would I need, need somebody to, to see? But , um, ultimately it is, it is the strength that I think helps us to keep us and reminds us because as I said, you know, you want this, you want all that criticism, all that negativity to go through you, but it is so hard to do that and without , uh, getting people to help check on that, you're, you're, you're not, you're gonna start absorbing it. And, you know, we see it all the time. Not , um, not just in in the burnout, but also in, you know, seeing I've , I've so many clergy friends who have suffered from cancer and o other illness that I can't not believe that the stress of the job didn't have a negative impact on, on all that.

Speaker 1: 40:36

Yeah. And it's, it's, it's just a lot of conversations that I know a lot of younger clergy are having and, and kind of what, 'cause you're kind of just thrown into the, the water when you first start and you have no idea what you're doing, no matter. Another question , another conversation is about theological education. I'll go ahead and tell you. I knew how to write a paper and I knew how to read a book. I did not know how to , uh, work in a church and it did not help me that much. Um, when it came to that and relationships and navigating things and being a younger person in a leadership role in an older congregation, there are weird dynamics that happen. And, and I also just wonder, and I keep bringing up boundaries because I would just love to know how we got to the point to where, you know, the boundaries are so non-existent that it, i i, it really, 'cause I am a very, like, I can set a boundary in a snap of my finger. And that's one of the reasons why I struggled in a church. Because when you get yelled at, when you get blamed for things or when someone raises their voice and thinks they can argue with you in the way that they do with maybe other people. And when you have someone who says, you're not gonna talk to me that way, not enough, I didn't yell, you don't say anything like that <laugh> . Like, I basically said, you will not speak to me that way. And that comment was like, I had just literally brought the devil into the, and onto the communion table because I think it's also a two-way street here. We can set boundaries too, but how do we also, you know, work in a community or work with a community to say, these are also the boundaries that we expect of each other and a covenant in that way. And I wonder if y'all , uh, can talk a little bit about that too. Is that something that you can give people some advice on? Because I didn't figure it out and, and I, I thought I did set a boundary, but it's also, you're working in relationship and so I wonder about kind of mutual boundaries as well for a pastor and the congregant too.

Speaker 2: 43:03

Yeah , James and I talk a lot about this and um, he's helped me understand it a lot. You know, oftentimes when we're thinking of the church as a system, we're thinking of it as a body. And if we are realizing there's like something attacking the body. So if there's, you know, if, if, you know, we have , um, a virus attacking the body, like we need the whole body, all the white blood cells or whatever, you know, <laugh> like making a defense against that attack, right? And so many times in our church systems in these funky little places, people are so worried about being nice and being kind and being that , um, they just kind of placate the bullies. And that's when churches go wrong because , um, you know, someone like you Lee is not there saying, no, we can stand up to bullies. Like, that's Christian <laugh> . That's, that's still loving, that's still kind. And um, and so, you know, I think people have been confused in thinking that, you know, having boundaries is not a loving or kind thing to do, but it is the most loving, kind thing to do. And it helps to protect the other 99 people who are worshiping and, and building this beloved community to together to, you know, just say, Hey, that's not appropriate and if you do this again, we're gonna talk to you again. And so oftentimes pastors alone aren't in the, the, the place where they can stand up for themselves, or if they do , uh, many times you'll watch an entire church turn against the pastor to kind of , um, save their own or defend their own. And we just need to realize that's, that's just really unhealthy behavior. And if that happens then, you know, then this virus is just gonna take over the whole body. And, and , um, so it's, it's just important, like you say Lee , to, to have those boundaries to make sure that , um, that we're standing up to that. Uh, and you know, part of the discernment process about whether you can leave or whether you can say stay is, you know, watch how people react. Are they standing up for the church? Are they standing up for the things that the session decides? Are they standing up , um, you know, against some of these loud, difficult voices? And I'm not saying that like pastors should never be criticized or anything like that, but I'm talking about those people who are kind of constant bullies. Like we just need to be able to empower people to stand up to them and, and to let them know that , um, that the church has boundaries.

Speaker 4: 46:41

Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , I think in addition to that, with the , uh, one of the things that for an effective leader with that is that we have to be able to, to , to say that as you did lead to basically say, that's you , you're not gonna talk to me like that . But at the same time , and that's establishing this, this, this is a boundary and this is, this is inappropriate. At the same time, I think in , as a pastoral leader, there's also our responsibility to try to then still be in contact with that person to still be their pastor and to be able to go, go to them privately and, and, and, you know, see what's going on with them , but also to be, make it clear you , this isn't, that's inappropriate. So it's a boundary, but at the same time, it , I think that a lot of, a lot of times we, we get to a lot of pastors can, can do that or try to do that, but they don't, but then they may be conflict avoidant or whatever. And so they're not going to keep the relationship. They're , what they're gonna do is they're gonna construct them as evil or they're, they're the problem. They're the, and so what we do is I want nothing to do with that . So the hard part is how do you then still stay in contact? We can't do it with everybody. 'cause some people, you know, are just not going to, not gonna work like that. But , um, but trying to be able to establish boundaries, but at the , the same time modeling that you can still be in community together. That's, that's the challenging part I think, for a good leader.

Speaker 3: 48:11

And I think that that aspect of thinking that the pastor still should be in relationship with that person, I think that other congregants don't always think of it that way. I think they see it and they're like, well, we just lost that person because you said something, now it's your fault that so and so is no longer here. And it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Actually <laugh> , let's think of it from a holistic perspective. What is the of the dynamics at play here? Um, so I really appreciate you saying that. And it's, it's so interesting, Carol and James, everything you've said over the last five minutes. I've been a Presbyterian since I was born, and I was born, I believe, based on what James said earlier , um, when he started ministry, so 30 <laugh> . Um, and in those 30 years, I've, I've been a part of many different congregations. I've seen a lot of things in different congregations, and I can name an example or a couple examples of almost every single situation that, that you mentioned. And I just think about the number of times where even it sometimes felt like pastors were pulled into these, these , uh, tug like all , not really power struggles, but this tug of tug of war and sort of , uh, I don't wanna call it semantics, but like dynamic issues within the congregation, which then meant that it made it so much harder to focus on doing the other good work that the church is called to be. Whether, you know, and , and that that varies from, oh, well the , the , the church's building flooded. Alright , the maintenance person will handle it. Well, the maintenance person is only one person, so they may need a second person. Who's that second person gonna be? It's often the pastor or there's issues with , uh, someone on staff showing up on time to work. All right, in this situation, who's supposed to have that con that conversation with the staff member or there's a, there's someone in the congregation who cannot let go of the fact that they are no longer the Sunday school teacher and they need to be told to not show up every Sunday and act like they're the Sunday school teacher. Hmm . Who's gonna have that conversation? And the answer always goes back to the pastor. And I'm not saying that it shouldn't be part of a pastor's job, but again, back to expectations, there are also other people around in this community, in leadership positions. So there's, and that's something that I think needs to be talked about as well, is just how do we share leadership? Because the thing is that a pastor may leave at some point, but many of the people in the community will still be there. So in some ways their longevity may be longer than this pastor's tenure with this congregation for whatever reason. Um, so something for our listeners to think about as well. But we wanna thank you both so much for being with us and to have this conversation. We'll be sure to have a link to your book in the show notes so people can check it out. And just wanted to give you , uh, one last chance to say anything else about the book that you think our listeners should know about. I

Speaker 4: 51:20

Think it is , it's , um, it , it is probably, it's very timely book. I think , um, although I think 10 years ago I would've loved to have <laugh> have read this book , um, uh, in doing that. But it does come out of , uh, a lot of experience that we both had. And what was, I think so interesting about it is as we were, as we were writing it, and as we were looking at that, we sometimes couldn't remember whose story that was because we both have the same, we have the same kind of stories, just different names that, that are attached to it. So it would be difficult sometimes for us to figure that out. And that that's, I think what people will find is the commonality of our experiences that we've had and the, and the trials and the , the difficulties that we've had.

Speaker 2: 52:04

Yeah, I think, you know, along with that is just the realization that as isolating and as lonely and as weird as this calling feels, you're not alone. You know, there are people who are going through the same struggles, you know, you put different names on these characters, but <laugh> , you're not alone. Um, there are so many people who are, you know, struggling through it and doing it faithfully. And , um, and I'm just happy to have you all as colleagues and, and glad to be along the ride with you all.

Speaker 1: 52:48

Yeah, it's, it is a ride. I'll say that. <laugh> , uh, and, and people, you know , people ask me a lot why I got ordained and why I became a minister, especially, I'm , I'm , I'm a part of the community and I get asked that a lot within that community and I can never tell anybody exactly why. And I say, it's only because of the spirit that I am here. And I couldn't tell you why, why I just kind of followed this road. Um, it is a wild road and that's kind of the great, that's kind of the best word I can use for it because wild can be all kinds of things. And, and I hope that we can all also give ourselves permission. Sometimes you have to give yourself permission to enjoy something and find joy and find those spots to where that does bring you happiness and joy within your profession. And, and sometimes it can be hard, but I hope that people can give themselves permission. And if you are listening and you are thinking about becoming a minister, all these things, we don't wanna scare the daylights out of you for doing it. But I think you should also read books like this , um, just to kind of be realist about it. And I hope people do read the book. Uh, I know a lot of people who are going through this and we just want to thank you both for being with us today on the podcast.

Speaker 2: 54:19

Ah , well, thank you again for having us.

Speaker 4: 54:21

Yes, thank you. It's been great.

Speaker 1: 54:27

Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of a Matter of eight . We want you to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and lead the podcast a review and give us five stars. We love that. If you have any questions for us, send them to Faith podcast@pcusa.org and check out our website, a matter of faith podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.