Church Set-Up, Customer Service Jobs & Reparations w/ Ashley DeTar Birt & Rick Ufford-Chase

Questions for the Week:

• When people think of church, they probably think of a traditional sanctuary with pews facing the pulpit and a cross at the front of the room. But there are other interesting and creative arrangements and settings for church. What are some of the other arrangements that you have experienced and what did you think of them?
• Let's talk about people in customer and service oriented jobs like waiters and delivery folks. I feel like these jobs are under appreciated and underpaid. Based on a recent Washington Post opinion piece written by a waiter, I'm correct. What are your thoughts? How does the way we treat people in these jobs relate to our faith?

Special Guests:
Rev. Ashley DeTar Birt & Rick Ufford-Chase, Co-Directors of the Center for Jubilee Practice

Guest Question:
What are your thoughts on how the Church should do reparations? Should every congregation implement reparations in the same way?

Resource Roundup:
Healing Haunted Histories: A Settler Discipleship of Decolonization
Center for Jubilee Practice

For Listening Guides, click here!
Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org!
A Matter of Faith website

Transcript

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00:03 – Simon Doong

Hello and welcome to a matter of faith a Presby Podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life. Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question. Because if it matters to you, it matters to us. And it just might be a matter of faith,

00:21 – Lee Catoe

whether it be faith in God, faith in others or faith in yourself. We are brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unbound the interactive journal on Christian social justice for the Presbyterian Church, USA. I am your host, Lee Catoe.

00:39 – Simon Doong

And I'm your host Simon Doong.

00:41 – Lee Catoe

Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions. Well, hey, everybody, we are here again with you and Simon and I were just talking that the fact that we haven't really mentioned Advent reset, during this whole, you know, like Advent started on November the 28th. We want to tell everybody that and also in previous episode, we did mention the unbound Advent devotional which we did mention a little bit, but you know, what, it's Advent, and we're deep in it. And it's one of my favorite times of the year. And, and I was also talking to someone the other day, actually, yesterday that like, you know, sometimes when we were talking about like polity and and all these kinds of things, my mind kind of shuts off. It's, it's not saying that, I don't know, I don't, I don't appreciate that other people find a lot of value in that. And I think that's something that I've had to work on is to figure out how to kind of, you know, tell myself to kind of like, live into to the Presbyterianisms of things. And that's really hard for me to do. But I do appreciate the fact that we do celebrate, you know, the liturgical calendar. That's one thing that I really appreciate, and has given me life. And this time of Advent is very life giving for me. And so we just wanted to mention that too. So, happy Advent, Simon, we really haven't even talked about it that much.

02:12 – Simon Doong

Yeah, thankfully, and happy Advent to all of our listeners, you know, I think it's just a sign of how busy we are. And I think a lot of people are that we go from Halloween, to Thanksgiving, to Advent. And sometimes we don't even recognize what time of the year we're in. what season it is, particularly when, as we've talked about previous episodes, we start celebrating certain things so early. I remember when Halloween ended the day of Halloween, there was no Halloween candy in the store anymore. It was all Christmas already. Like that. It changes like that asked. Yeah. So, in the season of Advent, Advent, as we are preparing, you know, for the birth and the coming of Jesus, let's remember to pause and take a minute to reflect and appreciate that, because I don't think we do that enough. Just take a pause.

03:08 - Lee Catoe

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. It's, it's hard. It is hard to do so and just take a breath, you know, like, take a minute and kind of just like, ground yourself and where you're at. But sometimes I'm moving like a million times a minute. And I don't even know where I'm at half the time. So yeah, happy Advent y'all. And I hope you're taking that time to just kind of wait, it is a time of waiting. It's a time of anticipation. It's not a time of automatic celebration. You know, there's this time and the advent calendar, like in the liturgical calendar, that you're building up expectation, and you're kind of deconstructing all the things that is happening when it comes to the liturgy and when it comes to the lectionary and all this kind of thing. So yeah, take some time church folk.

03:59 – Simon Doong

Yep. And Lee, you mentioned people's expectations. And speaking of expectations, we have a question about expectations around the arrangement or the setup in the sanctuary. The question reads, “when people think of church, they probably think of a traditional sanctuary with pews facing the pulpit, and across at the front of the room, but there are other interesting and creative arrangements and settings for church. What are some of the other arrangements that you have experienced? And what did you think of them?” What do you have Lee?

04:37 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, I think for me, it definitely is this idea whenever I first went to a church that wasn't kind of set up the way it normally is. And I remember going to a church that it was the church and the round, like they put the pews and chairs and around circle to where you can get I can actually see everybody And the people who were leading were in the center of the circle, and they weren't elevated. And they were kind of upon this high top, you know, above everybody. And I just remember how powerful that was, and how different it felt to be in community with one another in kind of a circle, rather than everyone's back. Everyone's like, posture the same, and everyone is like looking to the front. And that was very powerful for me to just experience for the first time. And yeah, it just kind of it made it feel more communal. And I do think it made it feel kind of like those earlier churches that I mean, we're, we talk about in the Bible, like these house churches, and just these places of gathering that aren't normally like, yeah, what we view as what a church is. So it's, I think that's the most creative one, I've been in the settings, but like, also churches that are very dynamic that can change the space and that are very accessible in creative ways. Yeah, I think that's very important now is to have space that is that is dynamic, and can you can be transformative in that space that as used for many different things that I think we're seeing a change into.

06:22 – Simon Doong

So at the church that I attend, we recently reconfigured sort of the space over the summer to go from a traditional pews facing the front format to church in the round. And so right now it's pews facing the center, and we also stenciled a prayer labyrinth in the center of the sanctuary, which is actually really neat. Some people have various thoughts about it, and that's fine. But I personally really liked it. And people had some feelings about church in the round as well. And that's okay, people love to have, you know, different thoughts. And I think it provides a unique experience compared to traditionally pused facing the front. And one thing that is interesting about church in the round, it's kind of hard to have the typical back seat or back row Presbyterian. Instead, it becomes like the outer ring, Presbyterian, which is a little bit different. Also, if you are even if you're in the back, if it's in the round, people, like you were saying everyone sees each other, more or less. And so if you get up, everyone can see you, which some people probably don't like. But that's just a trade off for sort of having that church in the round style. I also think that there's something to be said about whether a congregation chooses to use or not use a pulpit. I know some pastors swear by the pulpit, and that's perfectly fine. And other pastors say I don't want to be elevated on any sort of higher level physically, than the people I'm worshiping with and preaching to. Because for them that has theological meaning. So there's a lot of a lot of thought that goes into what goes in, in the setup of the sanctuary, which we may not always think about when we just walk in the door. And if we think about pandemic more broadly, earlier on, folks, we're having church outdoors and outside in the park, on the lawn, or in the parking lot. Be really curious to hear what some folks thought about their experiences worshiping in those types of settings.

08:32 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, a lot of outdoor stuff is went on and still is, and probably not so much. Now. It's December. So it's probably chilly. But But I do think it does also, I mean, when we're talking about Advent, I mean, a lot of things happened outside. And a lot of things happened in not so traditional spaces. I mean, Jesus was born like, in a stable, like, in a place where animals were like, that's not something typical. So it's, it is trying to, like, emulate in some ways that are even in the scriptures are places of worship, were a lot different than they were now because of anyone we like back in the medieval times these big cathedrals were built to kind of emulate that this is the grandiose presence of God and like you know, they were very ornate and very extravagant because of that mentality that this is where God dwells. But I also think it it kind of skewed the idea of that God also dwells in the in the small like house churches and these outside gatherings or in the coffee shop or, you know, like all these other places that can can be worshipful. And, and I just wonder, like during this time, like if churches are kind of, if churches themselves are rethinking specifically after having been outside? And will they keep that? And will they be more experimental when it comes to worship and now virtual and, and all these kinds of things and those types of questions to ask themselves, so I've just, I just kind of want to throw out there, like maybe do something different. I know we've been doing things different. But even within the worship space, what can be different? What can invite, you know, more accessible Ness, what can buy more communal feel, you know, what can kind of level the ground of leadership along with the congregant? I think we're, we're gonna have to figure out how to get out of that kind of, we're elevating people above other people. And so architecture has been one way to do that. And so how do we rethink those things? That's very fascinating. To me, even the color of churches, like many churches are white. And what does that mean? Like? How are we using colors? and things of that nature that have perpetuated a lot of oppression, and kind of white supremacy, like those things are connected, and the things we sang, and all those types of those types of religious things that we don't normally think about? So I would like I would invite churches to just be creative in how you approach worship.

11:31 – Simon DOong

Yeah, that also makes me think of a church, that one church that I really like, that has an interesting pew style, they have the old, the old school or old fashioned very traditional little doors that are on the edge of the pews, which I've, I'm very surprised that are allowed to have that because I think it's a fire hazard. Because you have to open it in order to get out of the pew. But there is something kind of neat about experiencing church where it's like, oh, this is this is a space where that stays in a very, very steadfast way, if that makes sense. Yeah. Similarly, I also have sat in that space before and felt like I was stuck, or locked in. But that's not something I had ever thought about before, because I hadn't sat in a pew that had that door on it. I think also, similarly, we talk about the configuration of church spaces. But let's also talk about where people sit. It's a very human thing, to get attached to like a spot in a space and say, This is my, this is my seat. This is where I sit when I come to church, try sitting in a different place. And see what you what you observe by sitting in a different place in the sanctuary in the space. Are there people that you see that you didn't see before, because now you're in a different row, you're closer to the front or you're farther back, maybe sit in the back and you realize, Wow, those speakers don't work. I can't tell what the pastor is saying. That's important. And no one has said anything about it. That's an important thing to note for accessibility. Or maybe you sit at the very front and you realize, I don't know how I feel about this sitting at the very front. Or maybe you sit at the very back and you think I I don't like this. So just to offer a challenge to folks to think about where you sit and why. And don't be afraid to sit somewhere else.

13:36 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, let's change it up y'all just a little bit, or we're gonna move on. And this is actually I'm excited about this question, because in another life, I was in a service oriented job, managed a restaurant for three years. And so we don't normally talk about that a lot. And ministry and a lot of our ministers and leaders have done this kind of work. So our question, our next question, says, “let's talk about people in customer service oriented jobs like waiters and delivery folk. I feel like these jobs are underappreciated and underpaid. Based on a recent Washington Post opinion piece written by a waiter. I'm correct. What are your thoughts? How does the way we treat people in these jobs relate to our faith?” That is a very good question, because I have seen people in leadership jobs in the church treat waiters and other folk in that area. Not so good. But, Simon, I would like to hear your your thoughts on that.

14:44 – Simon Doong

I definitely agree with the writer of the opinion piece in The Washington Post. We do not give people and customer and service oriented positions, enough respect or enough credit I don't think we give them enough grace either. And I'll also add that you see the person bringing your food to you, right? It doesn't have the thing you wanted, your order isn't correct. There's something wrong. Remember that even if that's true, you don't know what that person is going through in their life, you don't know how their day has been. Especially in a pandemic, Mm hmm. You don't know what someone else is going through. And I think that's just really important to remember. Because otherwise, it's so easy to like, take all your frustration out on this one person who is frankly, the messenger. And it's so easy to get angry at people or with people about something that is outside of their control. And we just need to remember that and have that grace and have that patience. And I think we should have that as people of faith. Because if we don't have it, good grief, do we just expect other people to have it?

16:00 – Lee Catoe

Yeah, people, I mean, not everybody's gonna have that. And I mean, and there are so many people that, that have done this work, including myself, that this was that this type of work was probably the most the biggest, like learning experience of my life, as because you see people in these in these spaces, you work with folk, you hear stories that are awful, because you don't get paid anything, and people are struggling, and it's hard work, you're on your feet, hour after hour, day after day, you don't really get a break, and you don't get paid in thing because of our laws and tipping and all that kind of stuff. And people don't tip well. And people don't have this kind of ability to take a moment and to take a breath and just see a person for you know, for who they are. Even in these types of like service type jobs. And I always tell people, I'm like Jesus served people like Jesus, the Last Supper, served people food and drink, and all these things. And it's one of the occupations that is so closely tied to, you know, many stories in our Bible of people who are serving others. And so I just wonder, yeah, about the elitism about this idea that, that these types of jobs are beneath and below. I mean, I think of Downton Abbey, you know, they're literally live below, in, in, like, the lower levels of a house, that they serve the people in that live above them. And so like, I just think about that kind of stuff. And, and I had, I've had like horror stories told to me, and like, I've experienced those same ones from other people. And, and I always, and I also tell people, like, when you're kind of discerning ministry, and when you're you want to be in this kind of work, I always suggest being in a service, customer service oriented job, because you do see people in a different way, and you interact with people in a different way. And it grounded me not saying I ever had a lot of money, because I didn't. But it grounded me in different in more ways than I'd ever imagined it would specifically when I started going back to school. And I think that has a lot to do with this mentality of like academia and all these jobs that kind of require you to be more educated, that that's automatically seen as higher than and, and again, I have seen people who are leaders in the church, not treat people well, that are doing their job and just trying to get by. And that's also something that's interesting to me.

19:06 – Simon DOong

Yeah, you know, we hear a lot about a, I don't know what it is x percent of Americans or X number of Americans are quitting their jobs now, during and it's later part of the pandemic, partly because people are realizing that maybe their job wasn't paying them enough, or they want a career change. But I will say this much for small businesses, and even it's not a small business, but for a business that requires lots of people to be in customer and so service oriented jobs. If people are quitting their jobs, that means that there is that much more work to try to be done by the people that are left. Mm hmm. And if people are quitting those jobs, and I wonder if it's because they're not treated well and they're not commenting as well. So then it's like, oh, we just have created this sort of cycle of, there's not enough workers and the workers that are there aren't treated well. So then they quit. And now we're back where we started. And I want, I just want people to think about that a little bit. Because that means the folks that you're dealing with, it may just be a few interactions for you in that day. But for that person, you their interactions with you, or maybe a few have hundreds, of working with different people have different attitudes. And that's tiring, it adds up. It adds up really quick, really quick. And it also makes me think about, you know, in the in the denomination where we're trying to push the Matthew 25 initiative, Matthew 25 vision and in Matthew 25, one of the phrases that that gets lifted out of the Matthew 25 text is this concept of the least of these. And I think when we think of the least of these, we think of people with nothing, right? We think of people that need something from us, but we don't think about people that we pay to assist or serve us. Because we're paying for it. So it's like, oh, they can't be the least of these because I am I am paying for for this. And I don't think that that's necessarily a good way to think about the least of these. Because the least of these can be anyone at any time in any context. We also have this question and faith that Jesus raises about, you know, people say, Oh, when did we see you? When did we see You, Lord? And I kind of wonder if Jesus was thinking about this particular demographic of folks in Custer, certain customer and service oriented jobs, maybe Jesus would say, you saw me when I delivered your pizza, and you gave me a $2 tip. Right? Because it was five minutes late, or the sauce was missing. 

22:02 – Lee Catoe

Yeah. And also like, I mean, people entertainment world, people in like, that are musicians that are trying to make it people like in the theater, all these all these types of professions. That is that that hasn't been talked about a lot in the church, and always had a problem with that the language of the least of these because it isn't, it is these people that keep things going. And to me, that is anything but the least it is like the the gear that if it went missing things would not. I mean, we saw it during the pandemic, things would not work. And we've treated these people so bad flight attendants, people in transportation, we've treated we've treated them as if they are below us, or at least have a like the least out of all of us. But in reality, they are the ones that keep things going. And it is very, it is an opportunity for the church to reframe itself in many ways. Like, we want to talk about the big issues, and we want to talk about the justice issues. And these practice these practical ways of helping others we need to start talking about service industry jobs, we need to start talking about people who are artists and musicians and who are transportation workers, and who are all these types of people that are making our lives better and making the things happen happen. And and I think it's an this is an important thing for the church to do. And it's an important way for the church to get involved in their local context. Are your local people who are at your local restaurants and everyone else getting the things that they need? And are you treating them? Well? I would ask myself that question. Are you tipping? Well, tipping is a weird thing. They don't do that in like the UK. They don't they don't do that in many countries. How are we changing those laws? How are we like, because technically restaurant workers might get paid $2 an hour? Because then the because then it is the tipping is supposed to make up for this crappy wage. Why is that? Okay? That's not okay. Because you're depending on someone to give you a tip based on the way that you interact with someone when you are working yourself sick and you're working yourself hour after hour. Anybody would not you know, anybody would have a bad day. So it's, it's just not a fair system. And I think local churches can have an impact in that and it's important and it's biblical, and it's a part of our Scripture story. The innkeeper was big Izzie that like it was packed. There was no room for Jesus. Like that was a service person that played a vital role in like, these stories and like all these people serving Mary, Martha, Martha serving Mary serving, like all these things, like all these stories, it's it's biblical. And I want to put out and say treat people well give people grace, like Simon said, if you're out of the restaurant, tip somebody, I mean, it's once you work in the industry, you know? And it might, I mean, maybe you shouldn't go work in it. So yeah, I'm very passionate about this, because it's something that I really wish we talked more about.

25:55 – Lee Catoe

Well, joining us today we are welcoming two very special guests to the podcast, we are welcoming the Reverend Ashley DeTar Birt and Rick Ufford-Chase, who are the co-directors of the Center for Jubilee practice. Welcome to the podcast, y'all.

26:12 - Ashley DeTar Birt & Rick Ufford-Chase

Thank you for having us. Good to be with you.

26:15 – Simon Doong

We're excited to be here and be with you all today. And we're really excited to have you with us because we have kind of a complex and deep question that we hope you can help us think through and respond to. So the question is, “what are your thoughts on how the church should do reparations? Should every congregation implement reparations in the same way?

26:39 - Ashley DeTar Birt

What do you all think you wanted the short answer right?

26:42 – Simon Doong

We'll start with the short answer.

26:45 - Ashley DeTar Birt

So to answer your second part of that question, Should every congregation implement reparations? In the same way? No. And to to explain why, yeah, let's talk about how churches should do reparations. Most of the time, when people are talking about reparations, I feel first of all, I feel like people think like reparations is sort of the Boogeyman. And it's like, oh, no, somebody is gonna come and take my money and do like whatever they want with it, and blah, blah, blah, and like, yes, no, sort of. It's not the Boogeyman. What it is, is a recognition that there are people, historically African American, and indigenous people in this country, who are either the original inhabitants, or the folks who helped build up this country and are responsible for the wealth and the creation of things within it, that never really got the opportunity to benefit from that either. Because things were taken away from them land was taken away from them money was taken away from them, or because they were systemically oppressed, and they never actually got to benefit from any of the systems that were they were a part of that they were used to create things, they never actually got to participate in the things that they created. And so what reparations is meant to do is to sort of balance that out a bit, by giving the descendants of those people something in return to restore some of that either something financial, something physical, like land or property or what have you. And it's not just meant to be like this one off thing where you give something to someone, you can do it that way. But it's meant to be more restorative than that. It's not just charity. It's not just a handout. And it's certainly not like this idea of like a stick up where it's like, oh, no white people were taking your stuff. And that's it, which is, I think, how it gets characterized by certain people, which is why it gets this like scary reputation. But rather, I think it should be this more relational situation. And this recognition that there are people who have not benefited from this. And because of that generation, after generation after generation, there has been harm done. And there has been this, this lacking that has just built up over time. And we want to be able to fix that a little bit, so that people who have benefited from things can help restore and give something back to the folks who haven't necessarily benefited from that. And so should every congregation implement reparations in the same way? No, because every church can't necessarily participate in that system. In the same way. Not everybody has the resources to do that. Just like every person is not going to receive reparations in the same way. And not every person was harmed by reparations. In the same way. I am a black person. My ancestors helped build this country But we are not necessarily the original inhabitants of it. And so the way that I end my answer, and my people today might ask for reparations is gonna look different than the way that my native siblings might ask for reparations. And that same way, every congregation implementing reparations, it's going to look a little bit different for them, because their congregations look a little bit different. And the people that they work with, and their communities are also going to be a little bit different. So I think it has to be relational. And I think you have to take into consideration what a congregation is able to do. Because there's a major difference between a small congregation what they're able to do, and what like a congregation that has a budget of $5 million. And a ton of resources and a giant building is able to do so I think that's that's one way to sort of get at the answer to that. Rick, what do you think?

30:52 - Rick Ufford-Chase

I agree with all of what you've said, Ashley, and I think I would take a step back and ask kind of what I think is a precursor question, at least in my mind, which is, why are we even talking about reparations? What you know, what puts that question on the table? You know, I'm a lifelong Presbyterian, my dad's a Presbyterian pastor, now retired, I've grown up in the church, I've been centered in every possible way, because of the, the identity that I carry as a white cisgendered. Man, and I'm, you know, in my late 50s, I am. Now often I now often find myself lying in bed at night, wondering if it's possible, to take enough action to reverse their phenomenal amount of harm that's been done in the name of Christianity. Throughout history, there are so many ways. So. So you know, I lie in bed at night and wonder what it would take for us to actually take responsibility for the remarkable level of harm that's been caused in the name of Christianity historically. And I think really, reparations is a conversation about the soul of the church. And if we can't build the church's future, on taking responsibility for the remarkable harm that we've caused, frankly, I don't have much energy for the future of the church. So for me a conversation about what Ashley and I are fond of calling healing and repair work, the work that is underneath and, and intertwined with reparations, that seems to me it'd be the critical underpinning for anything we might do from here looking forward.

32:30 – Lee Catoe

Yeah. And it seems like this yeah, this question was kind of written already with the understanding that we are to be we are to, like, the foundation of it is this repair work? Like we've already decided that that has to be done that needs to happen? But there are many congregations where this conversation hasn't even begun? Or if it is, it's very, like, why should we be doing this? Is this the way we should go? Like I've even heard it say, like, like, it's just time to move on, like that kind of language in many, in many ways. And I remember being in a presbytery meeting not that long ago, you know, we're talking about buildings that are closing, and how are we to deal with the finances and selling this building and all these kinds of like procedural things that go on when stuff like this happens, and and that would be like the perfect space to insert these kinds of conversations when we're talking about, even in those moments, and but that's not even on the radar right now. And so I wonder how do we begin to really like ingrain, even within like these, like, like, like, these procedural ways of doing what we're doing when we're talking about polity, and all this kind of stuff in the church? Is that a space, you know, to kind of insert these kinds of conversations, where people wouldn't necessarily think about having those kinds of conversations in that, because we're seeing more and more churches, having these hard conversations of closing buildings and things like that. I wonder what you think about that.

34:07 - Ashley DeTar Birt

Lee, I love that you brought up that that question, or that statement that people love to make up like it's time to move on, it's time to move on, especially during this time of year. We just had like All Saints all souls Sunday. We had reformation Sunday and all that, like we haven't moved on from that. We have these days where we're literally remembering the people that we've we've lost and how much they meant to us. We don't move on from that. So why would we move on from these other things that are still painful memories for us? Very important memories from us like these are things that we need to keep in mind and remember, and yeah, we these are conversations that we do need to be having and when we start having them. One of the things that I love about working with Rick, is Rick is so interested in In having conversations about history, and some of the work that he and I have been doing together, and particularly like the work that he's been doing, has involved going into communities and learning about their history, and seeing what their legacies have been around certain issues, particularly around things like slavery, things like working with Native Americans and whatnot, and finding out, was there a positive history? Was there a neutral bystander history? Was there something that was more sinister? And being able to reconcile with that and seeing like how your past can be brought into this present, and how that legacy can be used? In these conversations that you're bringing up now about these buildings? And thinking about who do you want to be today? Based on who you have been in the past? Rick, can you mentioned a little bit more about that? 

35:57 - Rick Ufford-Chase

Well, so I mean, let's be real, there's not a church in the country that isn't built on stolen land. Correct. So So I mean, that's a pretty foundational place to begin. And, you know, many, many, many of our churches were built with labor that was indentured or were enslaved, or built with dollars that came out of the institution of slavery. Right? So one way or another, all of us are implicated in the set of questions. And, you know, what we're learning, as Ashley and I do this work together is that learning that history, it kind of doesn't matter what answer you come up with. It's just honest reckoning that we have to do when we begin, do we have a legacy we can be proud of, for instance, in we've been doing some work in the presbytery of Utica. And there are some really remarkable stories about pastors, I had never heard of Mariah green, being kind of chief among them, who were really radical abolitionists in the 1830s. And leading the church. And you know, Brian Greene, when he went to Utica area founded or didn't found he was the second director or president of a, an organization called the United Institute in Whitesboro, New York. And it was a basically a labor college and he converted it into a utopian inspired, black white place where they educated more African Americans in the 1830s, at a level higher than high school than any other institution in the country. And he had the backing of the presbytery and the Whitesboro Presbyterian Church, but within 10 years, he was too radical. And he had lost the backing of those very institutions. And the organization failed by 1844, less than 10 years after he got there. Right. So there you go, right. Like that kind of ties it all up, but in in a kind of standard way. We they were both the heroes. And also they failed the the project in a very significant way too. And either answer helps us to understand what our legacy is and what our next moves ought to be. And, and every church pretty much everywhere in the country could be asking similar questions.

38:02 – Simon Doong

I appreciate where you all started, by starting with the sort of the second half of the question that no, not every not every congregation, or every church can or should, or will do reparations, the same way depending on context, and depending on history. And I think that one of the things that it seems to be a multi pronged issue, first of all, to just get folks to recognize their own history. Does that make sense? Because some, as you said, can we just move on, some people just want to move on, they don't want to recognize the history, but also, but also fails to recognize complicity. And I think it's because of really not wanting to acknowledge, as you were saying, Rick, responsibility or accountability, for that matter. Do you have any, any advice for folks who are, you know, having these conversations trying to encourage folks to take a look at their own history to begin that conversation, before they actually move into making any sort of decision or action on reparations? One way or the other? Yeah.

39:07 - Rick Ufford-Chase

You know, clearly, any congregation that takes on this question has work to do to educate its own congregants, right, and we're gonna restart all over the map. Everybody is in a different space. Most folks are simply ignorant about what we mean when we lift up a conversation about reparations. Many of us including myself, by the way, you know, six, seven years ago, if you'd asked me, What do I think about reparations, I was one of those white guys who rolled my eyes and said, Yeah, cute, no great idea, but it'll never work. And it was a, you know, in hindsight, it was an an, a totally inappropriate way to approach the conversation. And I had to be educated I had to come along. So how did that happen? I read a lot. I got in far deeper into conversation with colleagues who were both Native American and African American, and really tried to understand their perspective and the more I understood What it means to have been the the descendants of people who have been actively excluded from participating in any kind of a generational creation of wealth, and what it means for those folks to, to, to operate in the world today, as compared to myself, right, like my family does not carry huge wealth. But I know I've got cushion. And that cushion, you know, is all about the fact that my family was allowed to, to purchase and maintain wealth over time and pass it on from one generation to the next. So, you know, we've we've all got work to do. And I think one of the things that Ashley and I have emphasized is that typically words that polarize and I include the word reparations in this are not the helpful place to begin, where we want to begin is with experience, tell me about your own family's experience? What do you know about where your family came from, or what your church's history has been? And let's talk about the experience of folks who don't carry that same kind of history that you carry. Right now I'm in the middle of a book study with a group of folks on the book healing Haunted Histories that I highly recommend written by Elaine ends and Chad Meyers to both friends and mentors to me. And it's got me looking back at my own history, I can trace my family back because of work that my grandmother did as a genealogist back to 1640. When a quill a chase arrived on a boat from England with a land grant in his pocket for land that was being ceded to him had to come from somewhere in New Hampshire and Massachusetts, right? So what does it mean for us to look back at that history and recognize that some of our folks came as a project of conquest, and I count my ancestors among them, some came as opportunists, right, who, who saw an opportunity to try and improve their lives and grabbed it, some came because they were forced out of their own place by war, or economic hardship or environmental challenge, or whatever it might be, and tried to make their own way. And some were enslaved and brought here against their will. And depending on which track you made on your way into the United States, what became the the United States, you're going to be experiencing the year 2021 very differently.

42:18 – Simon Doong

That makes me think about, so we, I really liked that example. And the way that you explain that, Rick. And so I'm going to throw out a hypothetical. And you can tell me if you think this is not a good road to go down, or takes us off into a tangent. But, you know, I think one thing that we often lose sight of, as you know, Americans is that we have we have so many people coming in, people come in who want to, you know, they just want to have they're trying to start a life, right? People immigrate in. And as if someone is, let's say, starting a church brand new, and it's an immigrant congregation, you know, their history is going to be different than a little bit different than, say, a, a high, big tall steeple Presbyterian church that's been there for 150 years. But they also may need to understand how to approach this conversation, because they also have a role to play in the larger and you know, both in the larger structure in the larger system, what advice would you give to say, a new congregation with starting so that they aren't trying to always go back? If that makes sense. They starting with an understanding of who they are so that they can move into this conversation? Does that? Does that make sense? Sure.

43:35 - Rick Ufford-Chase

You want to try that one, Ashley?

43:37

Are we? So I'm going to ask some questions to clarify before I answer. Are we saying like a new immigrant congregation?

43:45 – Simon Doong

Let's say a new immigrant congregation,

43:47 - Ashley DeTar Birt

I think it is helpful to know, in general, some, some, honest to goodness, truthful, because we don't always get truthful, American history. Because one of I usually use the word black to describe myself, but I am African American specifically. And one of the things that I have seen from my friends, who are immigrants of color, and for my friends who are immigrants, who would be identified as white, is that a lot of times it feels like they're entering a conversation in the middle, and they are being placed into their roles that America puts them in in that conversation. They have not chosen. And so the way that they see themselves, is very different than the way that America chooses to see them. I know plenty of folks who come from Nigeria or Ghana, or Tanzania or where have you who see themselves very differently than say, they might see an African American person and they're because they're all very different cultures. But America does doesn't see you that way America sees you as black, and maybe also as an immigrant, but at the end of the day snap judgment, you're black, and you're gonna get put in that category, and you're gonna get judged that way. Or they see you as white or they see you as Asian, regardless of where you're from. And I think it is helpful to know in general, just some basic history around things, so that you know what to be prepared for, and how you are going to be treated. It is not fair, it is not appropriate. But it is helpful to know what you are going to be up against, particularly because some of the biggest perpetrators of that will be and I wish it wasn't a well, but will be the church. The church has been horrible in differentiating between cultural between cultures. And it has been horrible in understanding the nuances when it comes to racial and ethnic and cultural differences. And there are plenty of people who don't even know the difference between those three words. And so I think it is helpful if you are going if you are trying to start a church in America to have a basic understanding of some American history and some church history in America, just so you know, what you're dealing with, and what you're going to be up against. That's not fair. But it's the most realistic answer I can give. Rick, what do you have?

46:34 - Rick Ufford-Chase

I would just say yes, to all of that. Amen. And it's also true that we need to be we whoever we are, new immigrants need to be aware of that history, in part because they may unwittingly be playing into some of those same patterns of conquest. And, you know, European dominant sense of settler ism, that that I play into that, you know, that are just kind of a part of what it means to be living in the United States today. Right? And we've seen certainly that one immigrant population can be pitted against another or can unwittingly become a, you know, a player in power dynamics that are going on in a community. So sure, there's absolutely work to be done with every community, new immigrant communities and well established European descendant communities alike, though the impact or the outcome of those conversations is likely to be quite different and lead us in different directions.

47:34 – Lee Catoe

Yeah. And and I hope that whoever listens to this out there that, that we make it very apparent that the church Yeah, was probably like the one. I mean, everything had to be signed by, it was a papal bull. And like, everything was connected to the church. And I don't know if, and I'm not sure, like everybody realizes how like, like it was the church, like the church, ushered this and funded it and did all these things. And if not the perpetuator of it, like with the capital T, H, E. And, and so I hope that people who are listening this, who can't make those connections, who don't want to that, that there is some there is some space in your mind and in your heart to really kind of, you know, digest that a little bit because it is connected to all of us and to make those connections. And that's what we've tried to do on this podcast is to make connections no matter where you're at, like, I'm from rural South Carolina, and there are people who may not think that any of these conversations are connected them, specifically when it comes to reparations, which most definitely does, or immigration or anything like that. But we're all connected. And how do we make those connections? I think is very, very helpful. And I'm appreciative of this conversation, because I do think, as we're, as y'all are doing yalls work to really open up people's minds to it. We this is connected, and we are making these connections, and that the church has played a vital, vital role, and in all of this perpetuation of racism and white supremacy. And we try to say that as much as we can on here, so I'm very grateful for your work. And I know that you're going to stick around Correct. Are we are we doing a resource segment Simon?

49:41 – Simon Doong

Yeah, so Rick and Ashley are going to be sticking with us for our resource roundup segment to talk a little bit more about their work with the Center for Jubilee practice. So yeah, tell us about it. And also, how did you pick that name because I love that name.

49:57 - Ashley DeTar Birt

Rick, you picked the name.

50:00 - Rick Ufford-Chase

Well, so I mean, yeah. So it seems to me the more I study, Hebrew scripture, and the more I dive into that tradition of Jubilee, and I were actually Ashley is teaching a class right now on Jubilee that I've been fascinated by, I've been sitting in on all of the sessions, and there's so much there to unpack. But in my judgment is that Jubilee is God's attempt to institutionalize a practice of reparations, with some recognition that with, if we don't have such a practice, the world will get itself twisted and out of whack pretty quickly, that it's kind of our it's human nature, I suppose at some level for things to to get to become inequitable. And so I love the notion that every seven years, we're supposed to let the land rest from whatever we've been doing, and forgive deaths, and release captives and kind of put things back in order, particularly that 49th year, you know, like, everything goes back to where we were seven times seven ago. And, and I love the idea that that's foundational, in our scripture, though, is actually points out on a regular basis. And I didn't realize this until she started pointing it out. The Jubilee texts are not included in our lectionary. And I don't know that I ever heard them preached growing up. And there may be some reason for that. In a capitalist culture, they may have just been making us kind of squirm a little bit, and we didn't want them in our lectionary. I don't know how those decisions got made.

51:35 - Ashley DeTar Birt

I will say, for anyone who's listening, if you have met me, you know that I am not one to shy away from an argument. So for for Rick and I to work together and for Rick to pitch your name. And for me to immediately be like, yes, that that I'm on board with, I have no notes, there's no argument here is a huge cosign for me. I absolutely love that I love I love the concept of Jubilee. And the more I study it, the more I love it, for all the reasons that Rick has said, but also, because it's this huge reminder that at the end of the day, the land and the people on it, and all of this is it doesn't belong to us, we belong to God. And that's such a beautiful reminder for me of how we should treat one another how we should be treating the land, that we are all God's creations, we are God belonging, we are all God, God's beloved. And so we should be in community with one another, seeing God in each other, and seeing each other as gods, and not taking that for granted or not acting as if we have true dominion over everything, because we don't, this is old gods. And so let's treat it with that respect, and kindness and, and abundance that we've been given. And so every time I hear a name, it just, it makes me happy.

53:08 – Simon Doong

And so you all try to live to live that out through is it hosting conversations as well as like, do congregations reach out to you all? How does? How does the actual work happen? 

53:20 - Ashley DeTar Birt

Right, so our mission statement is that we accompany religious communities as we confess the harm that we have caused and foster healing of our communities through concrete practices, a full inclusion, reparations and care for creation. What does that actually entail? I'm so glad you asked. It entails things like conversations. Sure. But it also entails things like working with congregations, on exploring their histories, like we were talking about earlier, it entails working with them and having them form a task force so that they can actually get things done, because it's not enough just to talk about it. You actually have to formulate a plan and then do something. Because if you don't actually have people together who are willing to do something, then nothing ever changes. And everything just sort of stays stagnant. And that's not what we want. We want renewal. We want growth, we want restoration. We want God's divine abundance to be among us. And so we help with that. We do help with education. We do help with book studies. We do help with embodied experiences and helping people learn and unlearn things. Because part of the experience of growth is maybe realizing that some of the things that we've we've taken in might be harmful and we have to unlearn those things that we can allow for new things to come in and to grow. And you have to pull out the weeds so that the new new healthy plants can grow and sustain themselves. We do teaching and preaching. And we also help folks prepare for the day when we're not going to be with them. And they're going to have to do that work amongst themselves. And so we help formulate plans so that they'll be able to sustain the work after they've done that exploration of their history, after they've considered their community, both their church community, but also the wider community that they might be with. So that there are plans that can be taken into the future. And yeah, that might look like financial reparation. That might look like building reparation and giving land or property to another institution or group of people that might look like connecting with the greater community and finding out the ways in which you can be more inclusive, that might look like changing the way that your building gets used. That might look like greater outreach, that might look like something that I can't even name right now, because we haven't worked with you yet. And we would like to. And so we've had churches reach out to us, if you are someone who would like to work with us. Our website is Jubilee. practice.org. My email is actually at Jubilee practice.org recces. Rick at Jubilee practice.org, we would love to just sit down and talk with you, and see if we can help you grow. And if we can work together for a better world.

56:27 – Lee Catoe

Awesome. Well, all of the links that were that were said in this conversation, we will have up in the show notes. And so any platform, you're using any podcast platform, you can click on it, and it'll take you right there. So it'll take you to the Center for Jubilee practice. And I think Rick mentioned the book, I think Simon wrote that down. And so we'll have a link for that as well. And so anything you need will be in our show notes. But again, to actually to harbor and Rick up for Chase. We are so grateful that y'all joined us today. And we are we are so blessed to be with you and the work that you are doing. Let us know anytime you want to come back to talk about any events that you're having. We will be happy to have you again on the podcast. But again, thank you for being with us today.

57:16 - Ashley DeTar Birt & Rick Ufford-Chase

Thrilled to be with you really always a pleasure. Great pleasure to have the conversation and we'll look forward to moments when we come back and talk further.

57:25 – Simon Doong

This has been the matter of faith podcast brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and unbound. If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so at Faith podcast@pcusa.org. We look forward to hearing from you see you next time.

57:41 – Lee Catoe

See you next time y'all.

58:07 – Simon Doong

This has been episode 43 of a matter of faith a Presby podcast don't forget to subscribe or follow on your preferred podcast platform of choice.

58:17 – Lee Catoe

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58:27 – Simon Doong

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